(upbeat drum music) (upbeat drum music continues) - Hey, y'all, I'm Kiara Butler, and welcome to "Generation Rising" where we discuss hard-hitting topics that our diverse communities face every day.

And today we'll be talking about Juneteenth, our nation's newest federally recognized holiday, but certainly not new to millions of Americans and our guests, Ricardo Pitts-Wiley and Jonathan Pitts-Wiley of Mixed Magic Theatre.

Magic, you say.

- Magic, magic is in the mix.

- At all times.

- Tell me about the magic.

- Well, you go ahead.

It's your company, man.

I just, you know... - Well, about 23 years ago, his mother and my wife and I started a company because we wanted to put diversity first.

We wanted the idea of inclusion and multigenerational, multicultural, multiethnic.

But we wanted to front load that into the work that we were doing.

♪ I can hear the voices calling ♪ - Take things into your own hands.

♪ From time began when time began ♪ ♪ I can feel it's cooling water ♪ ♪ Turning rocks to grains of sand ♪ - So we started.

So the magic would be in the mix, but we also wanted to make sure that there was a black perspective in everything that we did, - Huh.

- That we were not an afterthought.

So- - Yeah, I mean, what I like to tell people often time, and I mean, I think, you know, there are black repertory theater companies, right, that do a particular catalog of work and should be understood as that.

You know, what I like to tell is like, well, we're a theater company run by black people, and that's not to be like, oh, we're not a black repertory theater company, but it's like, no, well, frankly, we do whatever we want because it's always gonna be through the lens of our particular perspective.

- That's right.

- So, whether we're doing "Long Day's Journey into Night" or "Fences" or anything in between, (laughs) it's gonna be informed by the people who run the place, you know, which is frankly no different than any other company, but you don't have to... Other companies don't have to qualify it, you know, as what is being done.

- And also, the black sensibility is a real thing.

It could be applied in everything that we do.

We don't have to be less black in order to do certain things.

In fact, the things that seem to be less black, we put more black into because only then are you able to explore the total range of the work.

It's not just from one point of view.

When we start rehearsal processes, we offer that the company of actors, what are you, who are you, who are you bringing to the table?

Bring your life to the table.

Bring everything about yourself to the table.

We may not be able to use all of it, but we're gonna acknowledge all of it, you know, from the very beginning.

- And it'll articulate itself in ways you can't even predict.

You know what I mean?

And so, you know, we've always find amusing like colorblind casting.

Get outta here.

No, I see you, bro.

(laughs) - No, I see.

- I want you to bring your stuff, bring your... Because, first of all, it's already informing how you move through the world, period.

So, that shouldn't stop when you get to the doors of a theater, right?

It should inform as it does in any other part of your life.

- So take me full circle moment.

How does your work connect with Juneteenth?

- How much time do we have in the program?

No.

- 20 minutes.

- Yeah, so, I think that the connection with Juneteenth.

I would tie it most directly to the work that the Exult Choir does at Mixed Magic Theater, Exult Choir, which is directed by Kim Morrison Pitts-Wiley, our music director, also my wife.

And, you know, I think when you think about, you know, what is Juneteenth seeking to do, right?

What is Juneteenth?

It's seeking to celebrate and to elevate beyond circumstances.

It's not just like a, you know, think about what it is.

It's June of 1865.

- Right.

- Union Army rolls up like, yeah, you're good here now.

What has happened?

- Two years late.

- Two years late.

- So, wait, two years late of what?

- The Civil War.

- End of the Civil War.

- Okay, all right.

- Oh yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So two years late.

And so, you know, it's not just that it's late, it's also we're in this moment of reconstruction, the greatest missed opportunity in American history.

We can fight about it in the comments if you want, the greatest missed opportunity in American history.

And so, you have people trying to actualize themselves in a world and certainly in a country that to that point was like, you're not people.

So now, you have people trying to figure out personhood from bondage.

Like that's... - Right.

- I think we don't think about how deep that is.

You're trying to figure... Not that you didn't know you were human.

Again, it's not that, but being human in public, that's what it is to be a citizen, right?

And so you have people figuring that out.

And so what are you gonna do?

You're going to embrace and celebrate the values that you were already cultivating and articulating even in bondage, and it's an anchor.

It's a piece of identity.

So, you know, Juneteenth, it's fascinating to me on certain levels to see the national embrace of which I am in many ways wary of, you know.

But what we do factually know is that this is a Texas holiday.

This is a Southern holiday, profound and deep and important because what does it do?

Again, it is an anchor.

It lets you know from once you came and to where you are going.

So bring it back to the Exult Choir.

That's what the choir seeks to do.

It does a lot of traditional gospel music, all right, traditional black gospel music, but it also does any number of contemporary interpretations of that music of what that sort of elevating and identity affirming and confirming that that body of work can do.

- But it's not just gospel music.

It's contemporary music.

It's pop music, but we put our spin on it.

- Is Juneteenth something you celebrated growing up like in your household or your communities?

- We acknowledged it.

- Okay.

- No, I didn't celebrate it because I was born in Rhode Island, raised here.

My mom's a child of the Great Migration by way of Alabama.

So it was more proximate for many, but in terms of like, hey, what are we doing for Juneteenth, it wasn't anything like that.

It was much more of a here's what Juneteenth is.

This is something they do in the South a lot.

So staying connected, but again, the last couple years have been fascinating and troubling, not because of what Juneteenth is, but I realize it's the first holiday that I've seen commodified in real time.

♪ June 19th in 1863 ♪ ♪ Emancipation Proclamation by Abraham Lincoln ♪ ♪ Paved the way for the emancipation of the black slaves ♪ ♪ Forget the propaganda ♪ ♪ Juneteenth is the true celebration of freedom ♪ ♪ And absolute equality ♪ So, look, even Martin Luther King Day, it's like, was that '86, '87, and it's like so by the time I had some conscience, it was just like Martin Luther King Day sales and things.

You're like, okay, but like seeing it happen in real time, I'm like, huh.

(laughs) - I watched Kwanza go through that also.

For me, it was the second time I had seen it, as you say, commodified in a way that says all of a sudden this Juneteenth car sale ad.

- Shirts, plates.

- Yeah.

It smacks of like the satires of like late stage capitalism.

- Would you say that it's being culturally appropriated?

- I would say that it... Now I'm like, it was fine for this to be something that it already was.

Like, I don't sit and when I look at what I need from America to better itself, I was not sitting there like, you know, you need to make Juneteenth a federal holiday.

Bro, that's like 10,000th on the list of things that I as a black American specifically, I as a an American citizen in general, like, cool, thank you.

I appreciate the black squares and the thing.

But also, it is also a reflection of power and how it works.

Juneteenth been around for a while, and in about a week, you had Juneteenth federal holiday, and in the same rough amount of time, it's like Washington, you gonna get a new football team name 'cause Nike and FedEx said you're gonna get a new name.

Something that's been a beat for decades.

In about a wee, it was like, sorry, bro.

So when you see that, it's like, man, really kind of looks like people who have power and influence, they can make decisions to do things that are right or for the better or whatever you wanna call it really quickly.

- Yeah, do you think that we should have the day off in Rhode Island?

I think it's not recognized on the state level yet.

Should black people have the day off?

Should everybody have the day off?

- I never find myself concerned with having a day off, one, for a lot of different reasons 'cause if there are those days off, as a theater, we're probably like, oh, we have programming or things about it.

So I'm sitting here like, day off, what do you mean?

- A day is..

The problem is days off become just that, a day off, not a reason to do something.

You have the time to do something.

And what we have to do at Mixed Magic and throughout black culture in America is that we have to find a way to define what we do on that day, and it doesn't mean I throw us a rack of ribs on the grill, you know.

(Kiara laughs) What it does mean- - Or it could mean that, but delineating like, what are those days of celebration and what are those days of action and activity or whatever the case- - So how do you all pull the community into your work - Through our music.

- To celebrate Juneteenth?

- Music, music.

But also, we're in the process now of developing long-term programs.

One of the things that we we have to be so careful of particularly dealing with black history is it's not a quick fix.

It's a lifetime journey.

And just because Juneteenth is recognized as a federal holiday doesn't mean that black people are recognized as free independent people.

- [Kiara] That's a word.

- That we have to develop those programs and bridges that say not only...

I'll give you an example.

I was at a Seder this holiday this year.

The ritual of the Seder takes it all the way back to the beginning of the Jewish faith, and it's a journey and a meal.

I'm thinking to myself, what are we doing for Juneteenth that's similar to that that says we were free independent people in our homeland?

And we were kidnapped and sold into an experience that we survived.

The magnificence of who we are is that we survived it, okay?

And that can be celebrated, but why you're celebrating 'cause sometimes survival is expected to be the highest level of achievement.

Well, you survived it.

Well, no.

That's not the highest level.

In fact, that's the lowest level.

That shows an incredible human capacity, but it doesn't set you up for future success.

- Yeah, how would you like to see Juneteenth celebrated?

I know you talked about through your music.

Are there other ways?

- I don't find myself caring a great deal about how people celebrate Juneteenth any more than I would care about how you celebrate other holidays.

How are you moving the other 364 days of the year?

- That's right.

- Like, you know what I mean?

Like, what are you doing to deepen the bench of resources and access, so that people can be fully actualized American citizens in the world?

See what I'm saying?

So whenever it comes down to like, well, what are we doing for Juneteenth, that's such a shortsighted American thing.

We don't have no stomach for like long conflicts or long problems or the complexity of that.

But, you know, so we like to like...

So we've done this thing on this day.

You see this thing that we did?

And now- - Now we're good.

- And now we're good.

It's like, no, but like what are you doing on August 3rd?

Like, what are we talking about?

You know what I mean?

Like, and I'm not trying to be controversial about that, but I move in many...

I've had the fortune and the privilege to move in many different circles by way of the education and educational opportunities I was afforded to by my parents who deserve all of that credit before any of these institutions.

Having been in those many different rooms, rooms that you have been in, we've been in some of the same rooms.

And when you understand the institutions and the frameworks and the structures of how these things work, ain't a holiday in the world that's going to just change them because they need attitudinal changing.

They need spiritual sort of philosophical changing.

And so, what kind of... You know, gosh, that's a lot of pressure to put on any day, you know?

(laughs) Martin Luther King Day, Flag Day, Arbor Day, Veterans Day, - Black History Month.

- Like, no, the work has to be- - Ongoing.

It has to be ongoing - And embedded in the fabric.

- Embedded in the fabric.

That's a good way of saying it.

- Think about it.

The the virulent toxicity of slavery, racism and all the ism, they are baked into...

They're baked in.

And so in order to heal, you must bake that in as well.

And again, if there's a program that can do it, tell me about it.

I'll do, boom, it's done, but like, it don't exist.

- I remember after 9/11, on 9/12, people were waving American flags and being super patriots.

And if I'm asked, you know, what kind of patriot was I that day?

I said I was the same patriot on the 10th that I was on the 12th.

You see, sometimes, we have these moments and times where we we're expected to become super black, ultra black.

It's like I'm black 24/7, 365 days of the year.

And you have to deal with me all of that time.

And you can't acknowledge me on June 19th or during Black History Month.

I've been hired 50 million times during Black History Month.

I call it National Negro Employment Month because if you go work, you go work in February.

But I had to develop a policy of saying, look, if you hire me on in February this year, I will not come back in February next year.

I'll come back in June.

I'll come back in October, but I won't come back in February because that lets you off the hook.

- Of doing your work.

- Yeah.

And Juneteenth, if nothing else, when I teach college students, I say, "Part of my job is to tell you things that you don't know, "but part of my job is to deny you the opportunity "to say, 'I didn't know.'"

Yes, you did know.

What you did with that information is up to you.

If you say, "I didn't know," you're telling a lie.

You're lying to yourself, and you're lying to the world.

One of the things that we have to use Juneteenth and other moments like that is to say you have to acknowledge us 365 days of the year.

This is you do not get let off the hook on this day, or on March 1st, it's all over.

No, it isn't.

That's just the beginning.

But as African Americans and as people of color in the world, we have to embrace that idea first.

We can't expect other people to do it when it's not convenient for them.

- So what are you all doing at the theater the other 364 days to celebrate communities of color or black people?

- Everything that we do.

- Everything.

(laughs) - [Kiara] Tell our viewers more.

Come on.

- Well, I mean, something that we are particularly committed to is developing art like the artistic bench, if you will.

You know what I mean?

It's not just that you need actors.

You need stage managers.

You need lighting technicians.

You need all the other functionaries that allow for a creative pursuit and endeavor to, you know, be public facing for it to happen.

And so, something we've done recently is we had a project called "The Well of Woman," which is a show, sort of an anthology show put together by my dad.

But in that program, we had a first time director.

And rather than be like, it was one production, we've actually done over the course of about a year working with the same director, different actors, you know, kind of in the very traditional workshop style, but we call it the Makers Magic Program, and it's particularly geared to training up directors.

And we believe that whether it's something as specific as the the Makers Magic Program or really any of our productions, we recognize that like training is a requirement.

So rather than have... We'll do classes from time to time and things, but the way I trained was by doing production.

That's how I trained, right, to be like, oh, it's... And it's for real.

It's not like, go on, here's the little, like here's the intern show.

Like, no, I'm gonna throw you up there with a 30 year veteran, and you're gonna learn.

I'm never gonna put you in a position where I think you will be unsuccessful or put you in a moment that is too big for you, but you know what, you know, when my dad and I were talking the other day, we get a real particular joy outta seeing people go from one to seven.

Seeing people go from seven to 10, you know, from like really good to great, listen, that's gratifying.

I ain't gonna act like...

But it's a separate thing.

- And it's rare.

- But seeing people go from one to seven because we also recognize that we are doing generational repair for the ways in which the school systems failed, the ways in which social programs failed, the ways in which community programs and organizations failed, and it's not about casting aspersions.

It's about, oh, here's a kid who has an interest in the arts.

It's like, well, we understand.

It's like, well, we gotta train you up, kid, but very likely gotta train the adult in your life up and multiple adults in your life up, and we want to do that.

- Yeah.

- Right?

And so you have to, you, you have to take the time and sort of grow your food, you know, if you will, to- - And put value on.

I tell people I'm interested in your 16 year old or your 13 year old son or daughter, but I'm really interested in you because that 16 year old will not stay in this business or stay connected to the arts unless they see you do it.

And so, after 23 years of Mixed Magic, we're proud to say we're working on the third generation already of participation, but also, to answer your question, we say the black presence was always there.

We are not an anomaly.

We do "Moby Dick," which we have done a historic production of "Moby Dick."

We say we were there on the whale ship, and it could not have happened without it.

When we did "Frankenstein," we said, no, black people were present from the beginning of this story.

We have to inject ourselves into everything as normal and natural.

We do a series called "Rise to Black," and it's a take on the term fade to black.

No, no, we rise to black, and it's a showcase for emerging talent.

We have had some shows, oh my God, - True.

- That were just community celebrations.

- How can our viewers find those shows or stay in touch with you all?

- So we do have a website.

What's it, mixedmagictheatre.org?

- .org, yeah.

- Okay, mixedmagictheatre.org - Or mmtri.org.

- Okay.

- Right.

So a lot of our stuff is online, so you can find it there on YouTube between original sort of productions, choir stuff.

- We had to reinvent ourselves during COVID, which everybody had to do, but we were very prolific in what we were able to do.

We filmed and broadcasted "Rise to Black" concerts, the gospel concerts, certain plays that we were doing.

We videotaped them and broadcast, and they're available on YouTube.

But the theater doesn't survive on technology.

The theater survives because it's a one-to-one human contact experience.

And we are in the process now of really trying to rebuild our audience and say you gotta be there.

There's an old saying when I was growing up, "Don't send your kids to church.

"Bring them to church."

Well, I say the same thing about the theater.

Don't send your kids to the theater.

Bring them to the theater because there's nothing like that, that one-to-one living experience.

It has no parallel.

AI is not gonna replace it, but we have to invest more in it.

And it is really going back to our natural roots because we never had great technology.

We only had each other.

And we have to continue needing and promoting the need to be with each other.

- Well, I think we could actually end it on that note.

And I encourage all of our viewers to follow up with you all, but we are at time.

- Awesome, well, thank you so much for having us here.

We look forward to the next time.

- We also have a gospel concert coming up on the 18th, 17th.

- So Juneteenth weekend.

Yes, we do have a show called "Revival Day," which will be at the Mixed Magic Theater Amphitheater, and that'll be June 16th, 17th, and 18th.

- And on the 19th, I'm narrating a program at PPAC called "From FREE to FREEDOM."

- All right, our viewers, make sure you catch those events happening.

And also you can watch past episodes anytime on watch.ripbs.org.

And be sure to follow us on Facebook and Twitter for the latest updates.

I want to thank today's guests, Ricardo and Jonathan, for their time.

And we have started a tradition, and I know you all are gonna wanna leave your mark.

So if you can grab some chalk, head on over, and sign our board.

I really appreciate it.

- Fantastic.

- Thank you.

- Yes.

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