- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, prison reform, mental health, two issues that can't be separated and neither can be ignored.

We take a closer look at the struggles, the stigma, and the hope for real change.

It's a conversation that's not just about justice, but about humanity.

Coming up next, stay with us.

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(upbeat music) ♪ - Welcome to Black Issues Forum.

I'm your host, Kenia Thompson.

Well, today we're tackling two issues that cut deep into the heart of our communities, prison reform and mental health.

From the high rates of incarceration to the silent battles with trauma, families and individuals are carrying heavy burdens that often go unseen.

Joining me today are two people who live this work daily.

Kerwin Pittman, he's a social justice activist, and Consuela Chapman, a trauma therapist.

Together, they co-host Choice FM's Sunday Visitation, where they bring both lived experience and professional insights to the table and talk about the challenges and possibilities for healing and change.

Welcome to the show.

- Thank you for having us.

- I'm so glad to have you both here.

Consuela, I wanna start with you.

Sunday Visitation, let's talk about what it is and how it started and how we got here.

- Okay, well, Sunday Visitation is a show that actually Choice FM produced about three years ago.

- Okay.

- And I got connected with Choice FM with my business, Choices in Wellness.

I did some advertising and the general manager, Chuck, was like, "We're thinking about bringing back a show and we think you might be a good fit for it."

So that happened on and off for a couple of years.

I'm like, "Okay, what's up with the show?"

And so I got connected with the Carter Clinic and the Carter Clinic is one of the leading behavioral health agencies here in North Carolina.

And I pitched it to our medical director, Dr.

Ojenga Harrison, and we decided to relaunch the show and sponsor it.

And so, yeah, it's been going great.

- So as a therapist, you bring the mental health piece to it.

- Correct.

- But you needed someone to bring the prison reform piece to it.

- Exactly.

- And in comes Kerwin.

So how was that connection made and why was Kerwin the best choice for this?

- Honestly, I've been following Kerwin's work for quite some time.

Social media, of course, connected us.

And our original co-host had some other obligations and so it was like we were scrambling.

But I initially knew who I thought was gonna be the best person.

And so I sent him a message on social media.

I said, "Hey, I got a show.

Would you be interested in being a co-host?"

And he said, "Yeah, tell me a little bit more about it."

He sent me his number.

I reached out to Chuck.

I said, "Hey, I got a guy that's interested.

His name is Kerwin.

Here's his number."

He said, "I've been trying to get in touch with this man."

He said, "Nobody would give up his number.

Thank you."

- It was meant to be.

- Exactly.

- So Kerwin, tell us a little bit about the work that you're doing that made you such a good choice.

You're doing a lot of policy work and advocacy in this space.

Tell us a little bit about that.

- Definitely.

I do a lot of policy work and advocacy work.

As somebody who have lived experience, meaning been directly involved in the criminal justice system and was able to come out and articulate it in a way that makes sense on a policy level, it was a match made in heaven to kind of be the co-host of this show.

So yeah, I'm excited to be on the show.

And so a lot of the work that I do is social criminal justice reform, particularly prison reform things.

And so right now I'm looking at using this platform as a way to be able to amplify the voices of directly impacted people with lived experience, but tie in the mental health aspect and talk about things that's going on right now in our state.

- And one of the things that's going on right now, you were mentioning before, is the death penalty is on the table.

We do not currently have the death penalty in North Carolina, but tell us a little bit about this House bill that may be passed or vetoed.

- So House Bill 307 was framed as a criminal justice reform package bill, but it has some ugly provisions in it.

And one of the latest amendments that was added at the end was to bring back the death penalty, and bring it back to death penalty by way of a multitude of methods.

And some of those methods are electrocution, firing squad.

One of the legislators went as far as to even say hanging.

And so it is a terrible bill, in my opinion, because it does not speak to the mental health aspect and investing in mental health aspects.

- And by the time our viewers see this episode, it may or may not have been vetoed, but it's the importance of understanding that this is even on the table and those methods are part of the options.

Consuela, when we look at media, we look at conversations around prison reform and mental health, what was the gap that your show, Sunday Visitation, was created to fill?

- To provide a platform for individuals with lived experience and provide resources for family members, caregivers, individuals reentering the community.

'Cause the reality of it is there's trauma that can happen in the prison system, and folks can be re-traumatized entering back into the community.

- Right.

So when we talk about mental health on both sides, on the person reentering community and family, how do we approach that?

And Kerwin, I'll start with you from reentering side.

What are some of the priorities when it comes to mental health that are not addressed for those that are reentering into society?

- So some of the things that are not addressed is post-incarceration syndrome.

And so our latest show, we spoke about post-incarceration syndrome.

And a lot of people confuse it with PTSD, and so it has symptoms similar to PTSD.

But these are a barrage of different symptoms that ultimately lead individuals back into the carceral system because they may feel like they don't belong.

It leads to depression, it leads to isolation.

And so the list goes on.

And so addressing post-incarceration syndrome, but investing in different things that will be able to help these individuals when they come home, I believe is extremely important to combat them from not going back in and address the mental health issue at the same time.

- Now let's talk about the balance with the families.

It may be triggering for them to have that person come back home.

I don't know.

They may be worried or concerned.

What are some of those mental health or traumatic triggers that might happen upon reentry for the families?

- Well, some of the things that we even talked about on the show is the way the family member may perceive or respond to that loved one.

And it could be tone and pitch.

It could be a variety of different things.

And a lot of times it's the anxiety, and anxiety can appear as being irritable and agitated.

For that family member, on the other end of receiving it may seem like it's aggressiveness.

And of course that can cause conflict within the home.

- And we also have these preconceived ideas or understandings of what they may have gone through.

Maybe this person's changed.

Like you said, it may feel aggressive or whatever the case may be, but it's not.

It's just a way of dealing.

Do either of you know, while their organization's doing work on the outside, is there work being done on the inside to prepare before coming out so that they can learn to identify the emotions, learn how to manage the triggers and the traumas?

I don't know if either of you have insight to that, Kerwin?

- So it is a minimum amount of work that's being done on the inside.

And I think now it's being a heavy lens put on pre-release and investing in individuals before they actually do come home.

And what that looks like is providing them different educational opportunities, providing them a multitude of different things that they may need to be successful.

So it is starting to, that conversation is starting to happen, though it's not happening quick enough.

But we do have people in position of power like the Secretary of DAC, Secretary Dismukes, who is a champion for reentry and pre-release and preparing individuals.

So I'm excited the direction is taken.

- And DAC is Division of Correction?

- Department of Adult Corrections.

Okay, all right.

I just wanted to clarify that for viewers.

When we think about how communities treat those that are reentering, how can we better prepare our communities to understand what's at stake for those that are reentering into community?

- I think normalizing conversations.

You know, there's still stigma and shame when it comes to an individual who has been involved in a criminal justice system.

And there's still stigma and shame when it comes to mental health.

And that's because a lot of times people keep stuff silent and silence feeds shame.

- Silence feeds shame.

- Did you want to add anything to that?

- Some of the most urgent needs, as Consuela talked about, is definitely to speak about it.

You know, you have to address the elephant in the room.

And a lot of the times individuals coming home have a lot of residue from incarceration mentally, and a lot of baggage.

And so addressing is the first step.

But then actually helping these individuals get some type of care and walking them through that process is the second step.

- Yeah, I hear creating a safe space for them.

Even in the household, friends, communities, you know, having that space.

Kerwin, what do you see as the most urgent issues right now in prison reform?

- In prison reform, a lot of individuals have long sentences.

And so we see an aging population of individuals inside of the carceral system, which ultimately costs this taxpayer a lot of money.

And ultimately they're not receiving the care that they need, the proper care inside of those institutions.

So addressing those needs and kind of getting those individuals out of the car system, because to be frank, they're kind of an older population of people.

Investing more in the reentry aspect of people coming home is not a big push for investment in reentry, but it is definitely needed because ultimately it leads to true public safety.

Now, public safety isn't, you know, lock them up and throw away the key.

Because 90% of the people who get locked up, they come back out, right?

They're coming home one day.

So investing in reentry.

- And we see that they go back in because there's no support.

There's no support.

And so I didn't think about that.

People with longer sentences come out at a significant age sometimes.

How do you deal with someone like that who has seen the world change?

You know, they went in one way and the world is completely different.

What impact does that have on their mental?

- It has a significant impact.

Because honestly, a lot of times, cognitively, emotionally, maturity wise, people, some people are kind of stuck in that same place that they were when they got locked up.

Almost kind of like the substance abusers, you know, that unless you have an excellent support system that is keeping you connected with the outside so it doesn't seem as foreign when you are released.

Because it can be a shock.

- It can be a shock, especially with technology and the way AI is taking over and rapidly changing our society, even for us.

So I can only imagine someone who has not had consistent contact with that change, they don't know how to thrive.

- They don't know.

- And it feels like I should go back in.

- I'm more comfortable back in.

- And some people do that.

- Yeah.

- Wow.

- Consuela, how does incarceration itself create new layers of trauma?

We've got people who probably got in there because of trauma.

So now we're adding more trauma in the system.

How have we seen incarceration play that role of adding new trauma?

- It's an additional layer.

From fights to, you know, sometimes it's sexual assault in the prison system.

Sometimes it's verbal or emotional coming from individuals in leadership, correctional officers.

And what happens is when that person is released, it causes stress issues.

You know?

And a protective self is developed inside.

And once you release, it's almost kind of like you can't connect emotionally with your loved ones.

- Right.

- Because you still have that protective self up.

- That's right.

- And it ends up pushing people away, ends up causing isolation.

And as a way of coping, sometimes they revert to maladaptive coping mechanisms, alcohol, drugs, and which leads to making poor decisions.

- Poor decisions.

- Mm-hmm.

- Yeah.

- That aids in to the recidivism.

- Right.

- Mm-hmm.

- So when it comes to Sunday Visitation, what are some topics that you want to ensure that people hear you guys talk about?

And what is your listenership?

What does that look like?

Who are we targeting?

- So we're targeting individuals that are currently incarcerated, post-incarceration, family members, caregivers, loved ones.

We want to be a resource and a safe space for individuals to feel seen, heard, and validated.

We actually have guests come on the show and talk about their experience.

And Kerwin has been great in having us connected with some excellent guests.

We actually had a gentleman who did 29 years.

- Did 29 years, yeah.

- Wow.

And so what was his experience that he brought to the conversation?

- So he brought the perspective of talking about post-incarceration syndrome and kind of how his reentry has been after doing 29 years.

We also had a guest who was on death row, calling from death row to talk about House Bill 307 and give his perspective of somebody who is facing death if this particular bill goes through.

- Mm-hmm.

- And so really giving a voice to the voiceless.

And so it is, from what I've seen, I've never seen a show or platform that give a voice to people who are currently incarcerated, formerly incarcerated.

And so I'm excited about what we're doing and the direction the show is going.

- This may be a confusion on my end because I don't know enough.

So you said he's on death row in North Carolina?

- He's on death row in North Carolina.

- But we do not have the death penalty?

- No.

- So how does that work?

- So North Carolina did a stay of execution years ago.

And so when they were executing individuals, but you can still be sentenced to death in North Carolina.

If you are sentenced to death by way of a jury trial, then you go on death row and it's a special classification inside of the prison system where you're isolated from everybody else.

And so when the death penalty do start back up, it's like the machine get to turn it again and you back on deck, so to speak.

- Okay, all right, wow.

I don't know a lot.

- No.

- And so forgive my ignorance and questions.

- No, that's okay.

- But I think that this also probably speaks to many of our viewers who don't know a lot.

And I think the more we know, the more we begin to understand and have a bit more empathy with what people have to deal with in and outside.

Some people will say, well, they made the choices.

Fair.

But what choices have you made?

- Exactly.

That's where the compassion and grace comes.

- Exactly, exactly.

What are some mental health supports?

And we may have already kind of touched on this, but let's be specific.

Upon re-entry, what does that look like?

What are the steps for someone mental health wise?

And then maybe logistically, what does that process look like?

- Well, mental health wise, it's always gonna depend on if there is a diagnosis, right?

If there's already an existing diagnosis and connecting with a provider in the community.

But some of the support is peer support.

There's actually forensic peer support specialists.

And there's groups, there's medication management.

If there is a diagnosis that requires that.

And there's a variety of different supports depending on the individual's needs.

- And so logistically, someone gets out, what are they connected with to make sure that they're not sleeping on the street that night?

That they have food to eat?

That they've got clothes on their backs?

What is that process?

- So that process looks like connecting with an organization that's gonna be able to help them and guide them in a way that makes sense.

And so I started a non-profit, Recidivism Reduction Educational Program Services, REPS was short.

They help individuals transition back into society because when I had to come home and transition, though I had family support, some of the pieces weren't there for me.

But a lot of my friends, they didn't have that support.

And so what that looks like is helping somebody get an ID when they come home, a birth certificate, a social security card, helping them get Medicaid, finding them employment if they're eligible, getting them job readiness, preparing them.

Most importantly, housing is extremely important.

You have a lack of housing in North Carolina, particularly when you have the collateral consequences of having a criminal background.

It's hard to get housing.

And so helping these individuals identify housing and find housing is extremely important.

And so this is why the in-reach is extremely important.

So when they come home, you have the outreach portion already down to a science form and know their needs.

- Remind me, I've seen a lot of work that you're doing, but were you building housing too?

- So housing is one of the models that we're going to focus on.

And soon I'll have a pretty big announcement regarding that.

- Okay, all right, I don't wanna spoil it.

I'm not going to spoil it.

- Yeah, they are entering in the housing area as well 'cause we see the connection with mental health and the lack of housing, especially with individuals in substance abuse recovery between the ages of like 18 and 25, has actually granted, I think, 45 million to support recovery housing for those individuals with opiate use disorder.

- Extremely important.

- Wow, very, very important.

What do you want viewers to walk away with?

Somebody may be watching like, "Okay, I have this knowledge now, but what can I do about it?

What can we do about it, if anything?"

- This is a fight that impact us all.

Recidivism reduction and reentry and prison reform is something that's gonna touch you regardless whether you see it or not.

And you're gonna know somebody or somebody's gonna know somebody that know you who may be going through these different consequences.

And so getting involved in this fight, whether it's advocacy, whether it's educating yourself on what's going on and what's needed, and just getting involved in the fight somehow.

Because the majority of the people who are incarcerated are coming home.

And we can't have true public safety by just locking people up.

You have to provide and invest in making their lives better.

And that looks like investing in people.

- Well said.

And when we think about communities that include our children, schools, churches, how do we navigate the conversation with children?

And then how do teachers help in that process of reentry, knowing that a parent's coming back home?

How do churches support?

What are some ways that we can give advice there, mental health-wise?

- Right, again, normalizing that these individuals are going through a transitional period.

And there takes time to adjust, right?

They may be anxious, they may get depressed.

One of the things that came up on our show was guilt, post-release guilt.

Having to forgive yourself.

And having a community, whether it's your church, whether it's a provider, a therapist, 'cause at the end of the day, everybody needs someone to talk to.

If you've done any significant amount of time, you are gonna need someone to talk to and process all the things that you lost.

One of the things that came up in our show, too, is when you lose a family member, and the grief.

You can't process the grief the same inside, the same way you would process it on the outside, because inside, vulnerability is viewed as a weakness.

So having community support that allows you to be vulnerable, be authentic, listen, give you compassion, grace, is going to be essential in helping that transition.

- That's right.

- What are plans for Sunday Visitation going forward?

Are you in community right now?

Or is it conversations in studio?

And are there any plans to bring community into the fold?

- Yeah, so right now, we're in studio.

But ironically, that came up in one of our previous sessions about bringing it in community.

I know Kerwin has an expungement clinic coming up.

And we have plans on hosting one of the expungement clinics, - So what's an expungement clinic?

- Go ahead, Kerwin.

- So for those who may have a record and may be eligible to get these charges off of their record and not face the collateral consequences of having this charge on their record, we take them through the process of connecting them with lawyers, making sure they're eligible for the expungement, and then the lawyer will file it with the courts to get that charge off of their record.

And so then the collateral consequences is no longer tethered to their record, and they'll be able to get housing, a job, X, Y, and Z. So yeah, that's what we're doing.

- Excellent program.

- Yeah.

- And one of the things I also want to mention, too, and you may have seen it, there are re-entry simulations that the state has been hosting.

I think that's an excellent way for members of the community to at least get a hint of what it's like to garner more empathy.

- So this is for members of the community to pretty much walk in their shoes.

Oh, okay.

And where can they find that?

Or is that information on the show's website?

- So the information to re-entry simulations, a good portion of the time, the Department of Adult Correction will host them in different places.

If you tap into your local LRC, local re-entry councils, a lot of the times local re-entry councils across the state or maybe in your area will be able to host them sometimes.

And so just looking out there and looking at it for those who are in the re-entry space and advocates.

- Or on the MCO's calendar.

- That's right, the MCO's.

- Okay.

- Via, Alliance, Trillium, you can find them on there, too.

- Okay.

And folks can listen to your show after the fact?

Can they go on the website, listen to past episodes, get caught up on all the content?

- Correct.

- Yeah.

And what's that website?

- Ask the Choice.

- Good question.

I think it's www.choicefm.com.

- Yep, I see.

- Nice.

And so what, just real quick, what are you hearing back from listeners as far as feedback?

Are they excited about the conversations, grateful for them?

- They love it.

- Oh, yeah.

- They love it.

I heard from some guys in prison who actually heard this.

Some guys reached out to me from prison who actually heard this show while in prison and said, "Man, the guys in here love it."

And so it's awesome.

And so to be a voice for the voiceless and give them a platform and speak for them, it gives hope.

- And more than anything, like we said before, it's building that empathy.

- That's right.

- Yes.

- And letting them know they're seen, they're heard, and understood.

- That's right.

- 'Cause they're human, too.

- They're human, too.

Exactly.

Kerwin Pittman, Consuela Chapman, thank you so much.

I appreciate you both.

Thank you.

- Thank you for having us.

- And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS Video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

I'll see you next time.

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