- (female announcer) Production funding for Behind the Headlines is made possible in part by the WKNO Production Fund, the WKNO Endowment Fund, and by viewers like you, thank you.

- The challenges of juvenile justice tonight on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I'm Eric Barnes with The Daily Memphian.

Thanks for joining us.

I am joined tonight by Judge Tarik Sugarmon, Shelby County Juvenile Court Judge.

Thanks for being here.

- Thank you for inviting me again.

- Absolutely.

Along with Stephanie Hill, who's Deputy CAO and Chief of Strategy and Innovation for the juvenile court.

Thanks for being here.

- Thank you.

- Also, Julia Baker, who covers criminal justice for us at the Daily Memphian.

I'll start with your seven months and some days into the job, elected to an eight year term last year.

What has been the biggest... We'll start big and then we'll get into some real specifics, but starting with just the biggest challenge and maybe the biggest challenge you didn't expect when you won the election.

- One of the biggest challenges is, of course, examining the processes that we have in place.

We inherited a lot of legacy systems and reviewing processes that one, address some of the gaps that we may have in our system.

Mayor Strickland has been quick to point out that he believes that there was a revolving door.

We moved quickly to address any concerns in that regard.

And then also in terms of staffing, we are limited in terms of space to expand right now.

Of course, we're going through a renovation of a location where we're gonna have a new detention center and we'll be going through a process of renovating the current building we're in.

So we have a lot of legacy staff, which I really appreciate that they did stay around, and we've had a system that has existed for 60 years with basically the same mindset.

So changing the ideas and the thoughts of the people that are there and buying into the change we're trying to make in the system has been...

Hasn't been a challenge, but we have to be thoughtful and look at data.

- How would you summarize that mindset that you're trying to change?

- More from a punitive mindset to one of reform and restoration.

And I ran on that policy.

Restorative justice is a key principle that we're trying to align the staff with.

And when you have a legacy staff that has been used to doing the same thing the same way, sometimes it's a little bit of educational and informing of the processes we're going through.

But I think that the staff is responding well to the change we're making so far and the vision we have.

- We'll come back to all of those things.

I want to bring Stephanie in.

Talk about your role, and again, what you see as, you were not at the court before, Judge Tarik, I mispronounced your name, I apologize, Sugarmon was elected.

So what do you see there?

What is your role in I assume making change along the lines that the judge just described?

- Absolutely.

I see a system that really needs innovation, needs some reform.

And to Judge's point about the mindset shift, is really a community mindset shift around even what the role of juvenile court is, the services we provide.

I think one of the biggest opportunities around education largely is just that we're a family court and the majority of the work that we do as a family court is not juvenile delinquency.

The large majority of our caseload is civil cases or cases that relate to dependency and neglect, custody and visitation, child support, and that's the bulk of the matters.

And then delinquency is a portion of the work we do.

So largely, we're a family court because delinquency work is family work.

So really thinking on a systematic level about who are the people we have in place that have been doing this work for a long time and are dedicated and it's hard work and how do we shift the system toward thinking collectively about the pieces and how they connect?

- One thing before I go to Julia, and we'll touch on a lot of what you just brought up, but when you say juvenile delinquency, I have a feeling you mean that as a broad term, what many people listening will think juvenile delinquency is a kid who skips school.

That I think is not what you mean when you define it that way.

- No.

- No, no.

- It's a youth that's allegedly committed an offense.

It would in the adult system be a crime.

It's a delinquent violation.

- And that could range from shoplifting-- - Misdemeanors to murder cases.

Wide range in gambit.

- Okay, let me bring in Julia.

- Judge Sugarmon, I know that you have voiced support for restorative justice.

You've cited the Raphah Institute, I think they're based in Nashville, and how that works is you have the juvenile who is accused of the offense, gets together with the victim, and they kind of talk about what happened and how it affected that victim and they kind of come up with solutions together.

What will it take to make this happen?

What kind of progress has been made on that?

- We've met with Raphah Institute, what, about two or three times?

I know you've met with them also in addition to the visits they've had at juvenile court, and we're looking at having a memorandum of agreement.

Now, they've worked in Davidson County with the juvenile court system there, Judge Sheila Calloway, and have had tremendous positive results.

The key component of restorative justice is to make sure the victim feels empowered and participates in the process.

Otherwise it will not go through the restorative justice system.

And by that, the victim is heard.

Often victims feel like they hadn't been, they've been overlooked, they're a byproduct of the criminal justice system.

In juvenile court and through our restorative justice programs, we want to include the victim and the community, educating the youth on the rippling effect that his or her actions have had in the community and make sure they understand and they're held accountable through that process.

- You also mentioned a new detention center, I guess more accurately, it's called Youth Justice and Education Center.

When is that due to open and what will be different there from what we have now at the juvenile court on Adams.

- We think it'll be open in June.

Now, this is controlled by a process that was put in place before we came into this process of moving into this new detention center.

It'll have one courtroom, so all will be doing there at that location is delinquency hearings or detention hearings.

It has 216 beds, 8 pods.

So it's a larger facility than I had anticipated before.

We intend to have programs there available.

They have a full culinary kitchen, commercial culinary kitchen.

They have a computer lab, they have a full gymnasium with a stage, so we'll be able to introduce youth to arts.

Of course, athletic events.

And we will have more opportunities to engage youth in positive pro-social activities there at that center.

- Yeah, and how many beds does the current detention center have?

- We have capacity for over 120, up to 120 kids.

- Will that one close?

I'll go back to you, but will that one close-- - It will be repurposed because we will still... Because our primary functions are at the current location, youth will have to be transported on a daily basis that have matters before the court if they're in the detention center, and we have to have a place to keep them while they're there and then transport back.

Logistically, those are the things we have to work out with the sheriff's department.

So that's the process we're going through now is evaluating what we need to do.

- Dr. Hill.

Currently the juvenile court has Hope Academy, which is run by Memphis Shelby County Schools.

Former Judge Dan Michael credited students who participate in Hope Academy with a low recidivism rate, and that means re-offending and getting back into the system.

Is there anything that you see room for improvement on or do you have any ideas for education within the new juvenile detention center?

- Well, one of the exciting things is that at the new space, Hope Academy will have expanded space for classrooms and offerings.

So would absolutely love to see the most robust education opportunity possible for our youth that are justice involved in that, because part of my experience is coming through a school system in the juvenile detention center in Washington DC and really seeing how a really dynamic education opportunity in that space does impact recidivism, does impact mindset.

I was fortunate enough to come into this work through See Forever Foundation, that started the Maya Angelou charter schools in Washington DC and that was the school within the youth facility there, and really being able to see opportunities for youth that were not school engaged.

And that's mostly the youth that we serve in Memphis that have not been school engaged, being able to reengage in a really dynamic school environment that's offering them not only education, but opportunities to develop socially and arts and those skills.

So hopefully the new space will allow for some of that expanded education opportunities.

- And some of the things we want to expand in are things like coding, content development, things that are pro-social, but also guide a youth toward a potential career in some technical field.

- You brought up a couple things at the top I wanted to come back to.

One was moving away from, I think you said a mindset of... People have a perception that the juvenile court should be punitive in a way, and you mentioned Jim Strickland, Mayor Jim Strickland talks often about the revolving door and other people talk about this concern, not just at the juvenile level, but in the criminal justice system, people who offend maybe at most spend the night in jail, maybe not, are sent home and are potentially gonna re-offend.

For juveniles who, I'll pick a hypothetical, right?

I'm not talking about any specific person, but let's say it's carjackings, auto thefts are up in Memphis and Shelby County last year, let's say it's a juvenile with a gun, okay?

So we're not talking about a... Or excuse me, a truant individual or some kind of very minor offense.

We're not talking about a murder and we can talk about those, but someone who's used a gun who maybe has prior maybe lower level offenses.

The notion of the revolving door is the criticism that your court, and again, this happens with the criticisms of adults, we're talking about juveniles, that your court will, maybe they will spend a night in detention, maybe not, they will receive a summons to come back and they'll be released back to their family, and that that is happening on a regular basis and that they're released back to a situation where there's not a lot of monitoring, not a lot of support, not a lot of parenting going on.

Is that happen frequently?

Is that what you said you've stopped?

So talk more on that.

- No, it's about as consistent as it has been under previous administrations.

What we have done is we have looked at our detention assessment tool and that's probably what you're referring, but there are other issues before you get to that point.

You mentioned a summons.

A summons is not a charge against where a youth comes into detention.

A summons is issued by the officer and often they are for minor offenses.

Now, they have used a summons process, thing called summons review team, which Dan Michael had started, and they will review the summonses and determine what to send in the juvenile court and what not, what to divert from the system.

If we can divert a youth, even on some felony charges, if it's not involving violence, that is the best outcome.

In Davidson County, for instance, they studied youth in 2022 who were diverted from the system.

Those who were diverted had a less offense or recommission of offense, recidivism, than those that were held in detention.

It would drop to six percent of that population.

Of that six percent, only eight percent committed violent offenses.

Conversely, if they were detained, regardless of the amount of time, it showed that they were 60% more likely to re-offend.

So those are the kind of statistics we have to look at before we determine whether or not detention is necessary.

Now, when it is necessary, they will be detained, and it's based upon a criteria under that.

- Talk about what does diversion mean.

I mean, what is that real world...

Diversion sounds... We throw that term around.

Does that mean counseling?

Does that mean an ankle bracelet and checking in with someone day after day?

Well, what does diversion mean?

- Well, diversion in the application of the going through the process means that the youth is giving an opportunity to be rehabilitated, and if they complete that rehabilitation process and don't have any other offenses while they're on that probationary period, the case is dismissed and is cleared off their record.

Now, diverted from the system means they never come in the juvenile court, ostensibly.

If they have a summons issued at the time they're picked up by the police or sheriff's department, they're diverted from the system and go through a process of being evaluated over a period of time, usually 90 days, and then if there's no other serious commission or re-offending, then that case is dismissed, never comes into juvenile court.

- Are there enough resources-- And we'll define resources, in Memphis and Shelby County to do high quality diversion?

Do you want to take that?

And who does it?

Is that private groups like Youth Villages?

Is that Shelby County Government Services?

Is that the school system?

Is that individuals?

Who is doing this and working with these young people?

- So right now there is a variety of ways diversion can happen.

It happens at the court.

It also happens through the Shelby County Youth and Family Resource Center.

And they have a list of charges that are specifically diverted and that happens directly through MPD, those summons would be sent directly to them and then they would work with the youth and family for whatever services that need to be put in place, because diversion can look very different.

So it happens a multitude of ways.

There are diversions that happen directly at the school system level based on the charges under the SHAPE program.

So it looks a multitude of ways.

I think part of what we are in the process of doing over the last seven months is really assessing all these pieces, seeing where they fit together because there largely has been a disconnect.

There really has been not enough conversations about where one process ends and one process begins and how we collectively can work together.

We're all primarily working with the same families and same children, despite the fact that when we talk about serious offenses, the majority of the youth based on our data are first time offenders, but the school system, Youth Family Resource Center and the court, we're all working with the same families and the same children and we need to communicate effectively.

Same with MPD and the sheriff's department.

The more we can communicate and collaborate around our services, our practices, our desired outcomes, the better outcomes we have.

And we are looking into bringing other options for diversion into the court, because I think any service that we offer, we're going to have a multitude of offerings because every family and child situation looks different.

- Yeah.

We've got 10 minutes, let me bring Julia back in.

- You mentioned the Youth and Family Resource Center, which launched as a pilot program last spring, and it's kind of on a limited basis as far as I know.

Students from certain schools in certain areas of town, who are accused of certain offenses, non-violent offenses such as shoplifting or drug possession are summoned there.

They're not taken there by law enforcement.

What kind of changes should be made there?

Should be made available 24/7?

Because right now it's business hours only.

Should be made available 24/7?

Should law enforcement be able to transport children there?

How should that work?

- Well, I can say we're at the beginning of our conversations with that team and because we do not run the Youth and Family Resource Center, all we can do is work together and talk about the challenges we see, the challenges they see and how we can collaborate.

From what I understand, there are four precincts that provide summons to the Youth and Family Resource Center for those specific charges.

In terms of their compliment of resources, I would say everyone doing this work is under-resourced.

I'll leave it that way.

And as far as what they should do to increase our services, as we talk more, we'll be able to make some suggestions, but that is really run by the county and that is not run by juvenile court.

- Go ahead.

- There's the County Commission and the City Council approved a joint resolution that would mandate that the Shelby County Juvenile Court has a public facing data hub.

What kind of progress has been...

I know it's in the very early stages, but what kind of progress has been made or what ideas do you have?

What kind of data will this have and how often will it be updated?

- Well, the wonderful thing is we're all aligned.

We all want the same thing.

Part of Judge Sugarmon's platform during the campaign was about transparency.

And it is our goal to be as transparent as possible with our data.

And as is most things, we've come into the court, inherited a data system that we need to understand and are in the process of trying to modernize some of that.

Fortunately, we're able to recruit an outstanding talent around data visualization and our process is underway to really revitalize the data that we take, the data that we put out and we want to be as transparent as possible.

So we're all aligned with that.

We will have a dashboard.

So what is in that dashboard?

I think it's very early in the conversation to see what they're asking for versus what we already plan to share, but that absolutely is part of our plan.

- And we brought in a person that does data analysis, we want to make sure before the data is published, we want to make sure it's accurate.

In the systems we've inherited, the collection of data is a concern, the way that it is processed is a concern.

We want to make sure that it is processed in a way that is not driven by the outcome we want, it reflects what is actually going on.

- The legislature is still in session.

They've made quite a bit of news lately, but specific... At the start of the legislature, there were a number of bills that would impact juvenile crime.

One was blended sentencing, which would give you...

The theory was give you as a juvenile court judge, more flexibility.

It's a bit of a binary decision right now in terms of treating...

If you treat a child, a young person as an adult or you keep them a juvenile, there was a little more flexibility.

Is that moving forward?

- All three bills that I'm familiar with are now going to summer session to be studied.

Which is a good thing.

But the blended sentence, one that's most closely aligned with blended sentencing is a Taylor White bill, and it combines some aspects of the juvenile system and then some aspects of the adult system on the tail end.

We're allowed to continue to work with that youth through age 24.

Now, the Akbari-Hardaway Bill is more of an extended jurisdiction bill.

If I had my druthers, it would be that one because it's a judicial decision, if the youth does not complete the conditions that are placed upon them at the initiation of it to add in the additional adult component.

And then the other one was of course a direct transfer, that was Sexton-McNally bill.

All three of them I understand now are in summer session.

- When a juvenile or a child is transferred to adult court, am I right about this?

That request is made by the DA's office?

- Made by the DA's office.

- You then in your office either push back on that or go ahead with it or is it really their call?

- No, it's their call.

I mean, they file the petition to have it transferred.

And then we go through a process.

You have discovery of course because you have defense counsel involved.

At some point, the state may make a decision to settle that case.

So that would be a decision made by making an offer to the defense.

And if the case is settled, we take that matter in and we'll do a disposition according to the terms of the settlement.

But if not, then we'll schedule transfer hearings.

- There have been transfers in your seven months?

Are any of those been...

I think by and large they've been violent to very violent offenses or accusations?

- Those are usually the only ones that are transfers-- - Are you comfortable with the transfers...

This was a huge criticism of your predecessor, Judge Michael, and of Amy Weirich, the former D.A.

Are you comfortable that the transfers that have been done were justified?

- Yes, yes.

I mean, we would not have transferred if we didn't feel that they were justified.

Now, I can't give any particulars of any particular case, but of the ones that have been transferred, these youth still have the right to a trial and a fair trial.

So I'm not gonna weigh in on other than the fact that they were transferred.

- Fair enough.

- But the quality of the evidence.

In a criminal court, it's based upon not a preponderance of the evidence, which is what the transfer requirements are, it is by a conclusion that the proof was beyond a reasonable doubt to a moral certainty in an adult court.

- About how many transfers have there been?

- Four.

- Four.

Just four, okay.

Julia, we have about four minutes.

- And right after you got elected in August, you and D.A Mulroy had a work session at Crosstown, and when you guys talked to the media afterwards, one thing that you voiced support of was reentry services.

What are some ideas as far as reentry services?

Have you made any progress on that?

And then what other kind of rehabilitative services do you have in mind?

- Oh lord, a myriad of them.

In fact, I just got a text from William Arnold, who's over the State Department of Re-entry about funding that may be available for a youth program for re-entry and job training.

We are pursuing every avenue to engage our youth in pro-social activities, including training.

Met with Dr. Hall out at Southwest.

They will do an assessment where a youth stands in their STEM courses, if they haven't finished high school, help them get their high school equivalency, so that then they might be able to apply to Southwest and some of their trade programs.

They have a mechatronics program there that is fantastic.

Been given machinery that is used now at Blue Oval.

Blue Oval supply to them.

They learn not just how to run the machinery, but how to fix it and repair it.

And this will also be applicable with FedEx, some of their mechanisms.

So we're being very proactive in pursuing any avenue we have to get our youth engaged in pro-social activities and other educational opportunities.

- There's a perception, people have said it on the show before, we've written about it, Julia has interviewed people who've talk about this, whether that's police or people in the criminal justice system, that because many youths, and again, we're stopping short of the most violent crimes, but carjacking, car thefts, break-ins to cars, which is up dramatically in Memphis-- - Carjacking is a violent offense.

Car thefts.

- Yeah, thank you.

No, thank you.

I misspoke.

I was referencing more sort of murder or attempted murder, those kinds of things.

So many youths, juveniles, know that because they're under 18, their whole record, if they don't go to adult court, their record will be sealed and wiped away, and that they can do sort of act without really any punishment or any ramifications.

Do you see that among people who come through your court?

- No, not... You have to determine what accountability is.

Accountability is, in terms of a youth that commits an offense, they could be sentenced to a YSB, they could-- - YSB?

- Youth Services Bureau.

They could also end up going into a state program where they are actually incarcerated and taken out of the juvenile system, if they're transferred.

Now, in terms of youth, the opportunities that they have for rehabilitation are what we have to look at on non-violent offenses.

On the violent offenses, they would still remain in the program.

And it depends on, this is why I want extended sentencing, blended sentencing, to have an opportunity to continue to work with a youth up to age 24, 25.

The data shows that a youth's mind is not fully functional, it's not fully developed until they hit those mid-20s.

So if we have an opportunity to work with them longer, say a child is 16 or 17, we have less opportunity to work with them, especially if it's a violent offense because we have to have pro-social restructuring of how that youth makes decisions.

And without that, we lose the opportunity to rehabilitate.

Now, the younger ones, and this is where it's so important, we focus on the two thirds of the children coming through our dependency and neglect petitions and processes, those are the children whose families need help and assistance.

We can divert those children from coming into delinquent or committing delinquent acts if we service those families.

All of our focus right now has been on the delinquency side.

We need to work with these families to heal these children.

- All right, we're out of time.

We can talk for another 25 minutes, but thank you both for being here.

We appreciate it very much.

Thank you, Julia.

And thank you for joining us.

That is all the time we have tonight.

If you missed any of the show, you can get the full show on WKNO.org.

You can get the podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks very much and we'll see you next week.

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