>> From WXXI.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

We'll make our first connection this hour with a question.

What causes you the most guilt?

What action in your own past do you most regret?

Maybe wish you could change or struggle to confront in a way that perhaps has continued to be a blur or blocked out of your memory?

Even what makes you feel shame?

Or is so jarring that you've distorted the details in your own mind?

I would think that we all have something that we would like back and consider this.

Imagine a young girl, four years old, playing with her close friend.

I'm going to turn now to the New York Times glowing review of a book called Poor Deer.

For more on this quote midway through Claire Oshetsky beautiful, terrifying sophomore novel, a mother asks her daughter, did you leave?

Agnes Bickford in that cooler to die Bunny?

This turns out to be the central question of poor, dear Bunny is Margaret Murphy, our protagonist?

Agnes Bickford is her childhood best friend and neighbor.

On a rainy day, when the girls were four years old, they raced out of their respective houses to play.

Later, Margaret's mother found her daughter silently cowering under her dining room table.

Agnes's mother found her daughter dead in a tool shed.

What happened?

Who's at fault?

And is this person deserving of forgiveness?

These uncertainties haunt just about everybody in the novel, especially Margaret herself.

But she doesn't want to talk or think about what led to her friend's demise.

And that's where poor dear comes in.

End quote.

Now, the dear in this book, in poor dear spelled d e r a play on the phrase poor dear d e a r for Margaret.

Poor dear becomes her own imaginative creation that challenges her in various ways to engage with the past and her responsibility and her emotion.

It's an actual talking, dear, that makes its way into Margaret's mind, or her writing, or even her hotel room.

And poor dear can be brutal and direct and demanding.

Poor dear is going to get Margaret to confront what really happened, how her friend Agnes really died, and what it means to feel the burden of trauma.

Author Claire Oshetsky has won the 2025 Janet Heidinger Kafka Prize from the University of Rochester.

The Kafka Prize is an annual award listed for the best book length work of prose fiction written by an American woman, presented by the University of Rochester Susan B Anthony Institute for Gender and Women's Studies in the Department of English, and the name of the prize comes from a promising young editor who died in a car accident.

We typically have the winners on.

It's always a great honor to do that.

And when Chad Post reached out to me, I mean, Chad reads more than anybody I think I know, but when Chad reached out, it was like, you stop what you're doing.

You got a new baby.

It doesn't matter.

Find time to read this book.

You've got to read this book.

And we've got a chance to welcome the author here to the studio to discuss guilt, grief, our fragile memories, and poor, dear Claire Oshetsky, author of the award winning Poor Deer.

Congratulations on the Kafka Prize, and thank you for being with us this hour.

>> Thank you for inviting me.

>> Evan Chad W. Post, co-founder and publisher of Open Letter Books.

Welcome back.

Nice to see you.

>> Always fun to be here.

>> And Taylor Thomas, founder and owner of Archivist Books, who gets a lot of credit here for the nomination for this prize.

Thank you for being here with us as well.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> Why did this book move you so much?

Taylor?

>> I had never read a book that had guilt and grief in such a tangible way, like having that sort of sensation separate from yourself as an entity that literally haunts you.

physically.

Was just something I'd never experienced before.

I think specifically with the way that poor consistently makes her confront her own lies as the story continues, which just.

I'd never read something like that.

So it was great.

>> What about you, Chad?

>> I am very much obsessed with, like, structures in books.

and how they're kind of put together and the sort of craft of it.

And this book is amazing for that, for that reason, like the way that it's all put together, the sort of iterations and repetitions at the beginning and the end, it's a brilliant, tight book.

So in addition to everything that you're saying, I also think the craft of this is the most high level.

>> Yeah.

When I was reading not just the book, but it was interesting to me to read the wide range of reviews.

I don't there's got to be a bad review somewhere in this book.

I don't think there actually is.

but a lot of the reviews note that this is a sophomore effort, but Claire's first two books have some things in common, and I wonder for you, since you literally read Around the world, is it rare, and did you have the feeling when you read this like something profound and new?

Did it feel that way to you?

>> Yeah, there is something.

Yeah, there's definitely something new.

And there's definitely a very interesting voice and a very interesting way of presenting this idea of an unreliable narrator that's dealing that we, as the reader are, are working through and watching her work through, coming up with a narrative to define her life and to deal with that kind of sense of like, you remember this thing very clearly, but, you know, maybe there's little fuzzy edges to it and telling it.

And I love that sort of situation that you're put in as a reader where you're having to sort of figure things out, sort of work through what the the prose is doing.

And like I said, I just think it's like just wonderfully written.

>> When you reached out to me about this book, I when I first picked it up I remembered some of the conversations we've had in the past about memory and about how unreliable our own memories can be, but for different reasons.

sometimes grief and trauma, which we'll talk about with Claire coming up here, is a cause of a memory block or a blur or sort of a refusal to confront something.

sometimes it's just that we don't remember everything the way we thought we did.

I mean, I remember not that I always want to cite Malcolm Gladwell, but he had a very interesting conversation about, if you ask people, where were you on 9/11?

Everybody seems really certain about that because it was kind of a seminal moment in society.

And yet a ton of people are wrong.

Like they'll tell you, oh, I was at my aunt's, we were on vacation, I was watching, and they actually were there the next weekend.

And they were an entirely different place.

I mean, it's just interesting how your memory works in general.

>> Yeah.

And like especially I shouldn't speak to this because of the nature of the book and the trauma.

But like, with trauma too, like, sometimes you dull those edges or tell it in a different way that you are less responsible or you are you're there.

What you're saying to like the challenger explosion is one of the ones that strikes home for me, because I definitely remember seeing that in school and watching it live.

And I was definitely did not happen.

>> Really.

>> I know it didn't.

>> So I was.

>> Seven.

>> Yep.

>> And I in my mind, it's one of the only memories of that school year of watching that, that clunky TV in the corner of the room.

I feel like I can see it in my brain.

And what you're telling me is I might not actually have been in school that day.

Yep.

Isn't that wild?

So Claire Oshetsky again, congratulations on this press.

Can I start by asking you what does it mean to be winning prizes for your fiction here?

What did this one mean to you?

>> The the experience of writing something that is so personal and feels like it's just my own experience that I'm writing about?

This is a very autobiographical book in many ways, and having other people say, oh, I have felt that way.

It's, it's a it's a magical thing about fiction, and I'm not used to it.

I don't think I'll ever get used to it that you can sit in a room and and meditate in a very solitary way about something that's important, that happened to you and have other people say, I understand, I have read this and I have felt that way.

And yes, I'm never going to get over that.

even though as a reader, I've had that happen, it's a different thing to have it happen as a writer.

>> Well, I mean, that means that certainly not just a Kafka Prize, but you're probably getting feedback.

And is there does that mean you're getting even more reception than you expected for a book like this?

>> Yes.

It's a very sad book, and it doesn't have what is what would typically be called a happy ending.

And I I felt that the book that the topic was serious enough that I didn't want it to wrap, wrap it up in a bow at the end, and that people were okay with that.

I just find it wonderful.

I'm I'm very happy about it.

>> When you say that it's autobiographical.

>> It's interesting that for you, this is a book that is so personal and autobiographical, and yet for so many people, it's so relatable, so relatable in ways that the way we interact with either grief or guilt or our questions of our own sort of culpability in something that we wish we could change.

I wonder if that's a surprise, given that how directly personal and specific the book is?

>> Exactly.

That's exactly what is surprising to me.

Also, that the the world I'm writing about is Milltown in the 50s, and I'm writing about an era that most of my readers weren't around for.

And I'm asking them to believe things like that.

It was perfectly normal for four year old kids to go out and play, and in fact, parents would say, go out and play.

And many other things that are really alien to the world today.

and that they went along with that.

And also the specific incident of a child locking another child in a, in an airtight space that that was actually possible and happening all the time in the 50s, that it was a good place for kids to hide and, and kids did die that way.

and as a matter of fact, I locked my best friend in a cooler, and, my friend's mother found her in time.

But I began to want to explore that.

Like, how could it have happened differently?

Of course, it was just a matter of minutes that that child would have been dead.

And two families would have been devastated.

And it felt like a good fictional subject, a personal subject to spend some time with.

>> How old were you when that happened for?

>> Yeah, it's really my first memory, and I. I hesitate to call it traumatic because it had a good ending.

It it's not something I dwell on, but it's very vivid.

And I remember the terror I didn't understand.

I'm sure I didn't understand that my that it was a life threatening situation.

But I did run away in terror that I couldn't open this.

And just that it could have happened in another way.

I wanted to meditate on that personally.

And then it became the book.

>> To me.

It's very interesting that you say it's you're really your first memory because it didn't end tragically.

And so and yet it embedded in your memory.

>> Yes.

And the other weird thing that is also very typical of families of that era is we never talked about it.

And, you know, it was like I finally, after the book was published, I called up my brother and I said, do you remember this?

And he remembered it.

Even though he wasn't there.

He remembered what the other mother said to my mother.

And when she found her daughter, which was my daughter was blue in the face and she was yelling this across the fence in the two backyards.

And we moved her away very shortly after that so I didn't have to live with this family next door.

But he remembered that.

Yeah, she was blue in the face.

That's the first thing he told me when I said.

Do you remember when that happened?

And we had never talked about it in all those years.

And he it was embedded in his memory as well, though, as something that had happened in our childhood or didn't happen in our childhood, I guess.

>> So certainly had it ended tragically, your own experience of possible guilt and grief would have been very different.

Did you do you did you feel any guilt over the years?

As for something that almost happened.

>> No.

That's interesting.

Yeah, I, I was interested in that.

ethically and as a fictional thing to explore as well.

We, we assign guilt to ourselves in terms of outcomes and not in terms of our actions.

And that is kind of weird because you can do the same thing.

And if it turns out it was just a lucky break and nothing bad happened, then we go on with our lives.

But it can turn out very differently.

And then we never forgive ourselves.

>> Yeah.

I just thinking about the things, the little snapshots of memory was driving back from Chautauqua Lake to Cleveland one summer with my twin brother and the driver in the passenger seat, and he asked me if I was good to drive.

We'd been working so much at the summer camp.

I said yes, and at at one point in driving, we go from the left lane to the right lane and the right lane, the right lane to the shoulder.

And my twin brother looked at me and he said, he just if you're watching on YouTube, he said you were just, you know, fully asleep.

And the car is about to go off the road.

And he grabbed the wheel and nothing happened.

And I remember just sort of jerking awake and him saying, we're stopping the car.

You're not driving like you nearly killed us.

And the idea of nearly killed us is so different.

I mean, like, it would have been another, what, maybe 1 to 2 seconds before our lives would have been either over or changed?

It's amazing how your memory.

Why that embedded.

Because that wasn't a tragic moment.

And yet I still remember it.

How did you, as a writer, try to work through how a four year old girl who is getting older and becomes 16 years old, how you are processing something that did end up becoming tragic.

>> Because that's fictional.

And I haven't had that experience.

I did research of other authors who had less luck in that situation.

One of them is John Gardner, who wrote a short story called redemption that begins, it's a short story, it's fiction, but it begins with the true story of how he killed his brother in a farming accident.

And it's something he never got over.

There's also a poet, Gregory Orr, who killed his brother in a shooting hunting accident.

And all of his poetry are about that.

there's the memoir Half a Life by Darin Strauss.

That when Darren was a very young new driver, he hit a classmate of his.

And she died, and none of them got over it.

They just never got over it.

And that is something I didn't want to have for my fictional character.

I wanted this, this character to forgive herself.

And that struggle of making a realistic yet redemptive story.

became kind of the the main problem to solve for me as a fiction writer.

>> We're talking to Claire Oshetsky.

Claire is the author of the award winning Poor Deer, and I should ask Chad and Taylor where they want you to pick up the book here.

I mean, so this beautiful book that we're going to be talking about this hour, where can we find this book here?

Taylor?

>> I am selling copies at Archivist Books.

that's on seven, seven, two Monroe Avenue.

>> Chad's right.

He has to hit the cough button.

>> Hit the cough button.

also on tomorrow, Saturday at 3:00 at the Great Hall in Rush Rhees library at the University of Rochester.

Claire will be reading, and we'll have an event for Meliora weekend.

And there will be copies of the book there for for purchase as well.

>> okay.

So if you can attend the event tomorrow, that's great.

What time is the event?

>> 3:00.

>> 3:00 tomorrow.

and again, archivist is where.

>> on seven, seven two Monroe Avenue.

>> okay.

Tell people what you do at Archivist Books.

>> so Archivist Books is a bookstore that specializes in all queer literature.

it's kind of like a love letter to myself.

I was always an avid reader, but never saw any of my identities really reflected in the books that I read.

so that's kind of one of the things that I wanted to do here is like having marginalized communities come into a space and see themselves reflected on the shelves.

so yeah, that's like the the main goal is just to kind of make people feel welcome and heard by putting their stories on the shelves.

>> Support local books, right.

Support local bookstores.

a great way to do that.

So different chances for listeners to pick up the book.

But again, the larger themes of this book, I think are really relatable.

We're going to talk a little bit more in a moment about the creation of the Poor Deer character.

I'd like to talk a little bit about that without giving too much away.

If we can.

but let me also ask Chad Post to describe a little bit about this process, this award, and what it means in this community.

You think.

>> Yes, the awards are really important.

It's been around for 50 years.

Claire is the 49th recipient.

I'm not sure how that math works, but there we are.

and there's the the list of winners is, like, astronomically impressive.

I mean, the first one was Jessamyn West.

We got Toni Morrison in 1977.

There's Ann Patchett received the award.

It's a very prestigious award.

and the way that the sort of prize works is that, publishers submit their titles, and then we have a group of five judges.

We each split that apart into about 30 books each, 35 books each.

So it's a pretty healthy number of submissions that come in.

And then each one of us brings two books.

Yeah, well, you guys bring two books to the finalists.

I bring three because I'm no good at this.

and I want everything to be awarded.

So then we we read all of the finalists, and then we choose one of the winners, and it's like a really actually, like, the best committee that I've ever been on.

And it's super fun to, to talk to people who are like avid readers, like you say, and very invested in the books and, and why they deserve to win.

So it's it's wonderful.

>> And the prize, even though, I mean, you mentioned Morrison and Patchett over the years is it fair to say that the prize is not designed for super established, high like, high wattage writers at the time?

>> There is a there is within the rules.

You can only have a certain number of titles.

so if you've published six books, you're not eligible.

I think the number is three full length books that, that this could be like your essentially your fourth book.

I might have that part wrong, but like third, fourth book essentially is where, where we are in terms of limiting.

And then if it's a collection of short stories a certain number of the stories have to have not appeared in magazines to be original.

So it's people who are like, not at the I don't want to say at the start of their career, but are are somewhat like at the point where you're established but are ready to, you know, be be rewarded for what you've done.

>> The way I've thought about it over the years, in our conversations is you all through this prize are helping.

So I'm not reading 35 books a year on the committee.

You're helping me find authors who deserve more widespread attention and maybe, maybe have some, but aren't household names.

>> Absolutely.

And there is we did.

This time was the first time I think, ever on the one of the substacks I run is the 3% problem.

We listed the finalists.

So the 11 finalists are all there.

So if you read Poor Deer read Poor Deer go by Poor Deer.

Buy it from Archivist Books.

support everyone local.

read that, but then you can look at the list of the finalists.

And there's a lot of great books on there, very varied.

There's some short story collections, there's some other novels.

It's wonderful list.

I mean, it was hard to narrow it down to 11. it's supposed to be ten.

Again, I'm not good at this.

but it's a really great resource for people looking for things to read that are by women, that are really important and interesting books.

>> Let me wax poetic a little bit about this, while also noting how bad you are at narrowing down lists, because Chad loves to read and he wants everything to be awarded, which is great.

I'm not everything, but a lot.

he's really terrible at that, isn't he?

He's got sometimes you got to pick one.

Chad.

>> Yes, yes.

>> and so but here's what I want to wax.

Poetic.

I just have so much appreciation for the work that you do with this, because I'm.

I'm feeling a little despair lately.

And the despair starts with.

We had a really lovely conversation, and I am not coming down on anybody.

A lovely conversation about what is going on with the sort of social media addiction, screen addiction and the bell to bell bands of cell phones and schools.

And we had a 16 year old on a very thoughtful 16 year old, really thoughtful student who said she really can't read books because when she reads books, she can read for five minutes and she needs to check.

TikTok and she just can't get away from it.

And so she doesn't really read, doesn't read for pleasure.

We'll read sometimes for school if she has to, but can't get through books and can't read for an hour, can't read for 20 minutes.

I bring this up only not again with no derision.

Just observing that that is a lot of us in society now, because of the changing habits that we have, the addictions, the attention spans.

And I get nervous that we're going to have even fewer authors find audiences.

Because when you look at the amount of reading people do for pleasure, for leisure you've probably seen some of those studies over the years, like it starts to disturb you a little bit.

>> Yeah.

Although I get to play my super optimist on your show every single time.

>> I know, I know, I see I become the Doomsayer.

And then you come in to be like, no, it's going to be okay.

>> Anyone who knows me is like, this is a role reversal that we have never expected.

But I do believe that, like, there is going to be a sort of shift.

I think it might be signaled recently among political events that have happened in which people are going to look for authenticity and for more sustained connection with human beings.

And I think that books are a good medium for that.

And like I found I was I'm, you know, locked into my phone.

I'm constantly having text messages from I'm in these conversations and I've known in the past that I've had a hard time to like, I'll have to set things aside, pay attention.

I feel like reading a book for an hour or more is where you get to see, like, how it's put together.

Like otherwise you're just getting glimpses of stuff.

And I've noticed recently, because I don't use social media anymore at all, that like, life is better, it's much easier.

I've become more adjusted and the breeding process is is much more fulfilling than it was.

And I don't think I'm alone in this.

I've had sort of senses that people are like backing away.

So my optimism is that, yes, that's obviously going to be the case for many years of people being I got to check TikTok, I got to see what's going on.

But I think we're going to start shifting away.

I think A.I.

is pushing us away, back towards like books, back towards human.

>> Like a countercultural movement away from tech addiction.

>> If we could have a real counterculture in this society, I am there for it.

>> okay.

Are you optimistic, too, on this?

>> I try to be, I don't know, I don't know if I'm as optimistic as you, Chad, but I, I feel like as someone who has had TikTok and social media addiction and phone addiction is just us seeking entertainment, and I think if we can reframe the fact that books have consistently been entertainment, I mean, that's how I kept myself entertained.

I know that it's not as visual, you know, as far as like videos and things like that, but at least in my circle, I feel like most of the people love to just sit down and read as like a solitary enjoyment.

>> I think that's a good way to frame it.

Another way to think of it one week ago, probably right now on this program, Kit Miller made a really important point about attention.

And our attention has been commodified.

I mean, we know that it is a valuable asset for corporations, companies, social media platforms.

They want your attention and they they value it and they sell it, and they know how to get it from you.

And so the challenge kit put to us is value your attention more than these corporations do.

And if you're doomscrolling, you're not really valuing your attention.

And if you're reading, that is a great way to value your attention.

That is a way to find growth and understanding and all kinds of good things that are not doomscrolling.

I like that framing.

Go ahead, Chad.

>> I do too, and I think there's something about like just long form narrative in relation to that.

Like if you're listening to an audiobook, you're listening to a podcast, you're watching something and like engaging with it, that, that, that it's the attention, like you say, and like not allowing it to be commodified by TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, wherever.

but also just that the process of engaging in something more than 30s like when you see, I watch my kids like, just like, flip through things.

I watch like, I know that students like, and I've read studies about music in particular that that music that's crafted for TikTok.

You have like one second and then someone moves on, like to reframe, like what you're saying in paying attention and to put that emphasis onto a longer form narrative is going to make a huge difference for like how you think about yourself, how you think about the world, like it changes everything.

If you're giving something a sustained amount of attention.

So I think that's super important.

But it is also so hard in our world where we're getting bombarded by information nonstop.

It's just like the explosion of like how information proliferates and becomes easier and easier and easier to like, share and to like make more of it.

And this is where, as we've talked about, my fear with A.I.

is that it's just like overwhelming everything.

>> Yeah for sure.

And one other point on this, that Chad's comment made me think of, and then I want to get Claire's thought on all this as the author, as an author in the room here.

you know, I do think that there is a, a way that modern technology allows us to choose not to engage with hard emotions.

So we start to feel sadness.

Sadness is a core part of your life.

Life is inherently pretty sad.

It's tragic at times, and you can't just will that away by doomscrolling or checking TikTok or texting someone.

you can you can try to chase that away.

And I think what tech does is it instead of letting us sit with it, when I read a book like this, I sometimes just need time to reread a paragraph and then just sit for a second.

I'm not a fast reader.

I'm a fast reader for show purposes.

I am not a fast reader of works like this when I want to really absorb it.

And that's kind of by design, because I want to sit in silence with it and ask myself what I'm feeling and what I'm relating to.

And I think if there's this temptation to go like, nah, no, I don't want to feel that like, you know, comedians, people have observed this long before I have.

But it's true.

We can just get away from hard feelings.

We think and chase it with this stuff.

And I don't think that is a good habit.

I think this asks us to work through how it makes us feel, and to not run from that and to maybe take some time with that.

And I think that's healthy.

But it's also hard and maybe, maybe we'll relearn that habit as part of the countercultural movement that you want.

Chad Post.

>> Yeah, I will lead this movement if people will let me.

>> Grab that torch and the pitchforks.

Let's go.

okay.

>> That's enough of me waxing like weird on this subject here.

what what does all this strike as?

The author, Claire, here of the book that we've been talking about, are you concerned about habits and and trends and technology and the the effect on your possible future readers?

>> I've been online since 1995, and was very involved with the technology itself.

As a tech writer in in Silicon Valley.

And what I've observed is the internet.

We say the internet is forever, but actually the internet is not forever.

It's very ephemeral.

Nothing about 1995 is available anymore.

You can go to the Wayback Machine and there's like these little broken threads.

It's it's gone.

What happened to Myspace?

What happened to those early ventures?

They're just gone.

Anytime a. A media organization wants to change what's online.

They can just get rid of what they don't like on their sites anymore.

And we think TikTok is forever.

Well, everybody thought Myspace was forever.

So I think that's going to happen.

Much like what Chad said, that people will just get bored.

There's only so much you can do in a TikTok video, the aspect ratio is all wrong for things people want to show.

For one thing like these, Fred Astaire dances and like there's just Ginger Rogers or just Fred Astaire.

That doesn't work for many reasons.

And people are copying each other.

There's there's very little originality there.

so, so yeah, first, there's this brokenness of the past.

There's no history with the internet that's going to continue.

And what will survive as as an expression of our era is, is a book.

And I just believe this so strongly.

Like this, this physical thing is just so much more going to be around, try to find a book published in 1995.

It's not so hard 1925.

It's not so hard.

So I think just the the physicality of things.

That's why people are turning back to vinyl.

I think for music that, digital things are ephemeral and will continue to just float away.

And culture is people are going to return to physical media just naturally.

>> Our last question on the subject and what we'll do is we'll take a break, and I want to spend the rest of the hour really kind of working more through what our especially the guests, the judges think of this outstanding novel.

It's called Poor Deer.

Claire Oshetsky is the author, and Claire is with us in studio.

The winner of the 2025 Kafka Prize.

I've been wrestling a lot lately with how I feel about how I can be used to complete a song, a composition, a book, a poem, a presentation, a speech, and I don't want to be an absolutist.

I want to acknowledge that there are different lines and different places.

We had a conversation earlier this week with musicians who pretty flatly rejected the idea that you can put in, you get writer's block, you got half a song written, but put it in a snow and snow will finish it for you, and it's still your song.

And I argued, I don't think it is.

And the musicians mostly agreed.

But there are some very smart people in tech who have pushed back and have shared some really interesting things with me, and I'm grateful for the back and forth I'm working through, how I feel about all this.

What I know is that I'd be very surprised if Claire said, well, I had half of Poor Deer done and I didn't know what to do with it, and I put it into A.I.

and it finished it for me.

And that's what you're holding.

I don't I would be very surprised at that, but you could have done that.

And there are people doing it today.

Writers with writer's block in music and poetry and literature are using A.I.

to finish it for them.

And I'm uncomfortable with that.

I don't think that's the same as finding a musical collaborator or saying, Taylor, I don't know how to finish this poem.

I've got a couple of ways.

What do you think?

I think that that interaction is different than just I do it.

but I don't know.

I mean, how do you feel about the possibility of what tech can do for for writers like yourself?

Claire.

>> Well, sometimes I will ask ChatGPT, what should I write next?

And the the ideas are really bad.

So I'm just like, but the thing that's weird about it is they sound good.

They're like, oh, that sounds good.

But if you actually look at it, no, there's nothing there.

And I just don't think I don't think there's a capability in the technology for doing creative things or even true things.

because it's gathering from a database that is, in fact, checked.

It's just like the great unwashed, whatever that's out there.

So I'm not afraid of A.I., I, I don't think it's creative, and I don't think that's going to change.

There are a lot of people who are trying to talk us into that, because they'll make money if we buy into it.

but I just I don't see there have been some pretty interesting things.

about novels, about books that use A.I.

as a as a foil.

And you can tell this is, this is A.I.

So I'm, I don't think that's going to get better.

>> But if you had a book in your hand and someone said, hey, this author hit a writer's block, put in a half finished work.

30,000 words and got another 30,000 to complete it.

From A.I.

Would you say that's still the author's book?

>> I don't see that as reality.

I don't think that would ever happen, and I don't think I will ever get there.

There's like this nirvana of A.I.

that people are afraid of, that it'll actually take over creative work.

And I don't think it has the capability, and I don't think it ever will.

>> Well, let me give a shout out to Kevin, who has been really generous with me and followed up and keeps challenging me on this and really smart and good ways.

And I just want to thank him for that because he's what he's showing me is that the quality of the prompt does matter.

If you're using A.I., but if you write really sophisticated, long, thoughtful prompts, you do get better stuff.

And I'm a little nervous about that.

But, I mean, it is part of the reality.

So we're going to keep talking about that.

That's for another day.

Let's take this break.

Let's come back, talk more about the book.

The book is called Poor Deer.

It's available now at Archivist Books in Rochester.

We'll tell you about an event coming up tomorrow.

Claire Oshetsky is the author and the winner of the 2025 Kafka Prize at the University of Rochester will come right back on Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson Monday on the next Connections we sit down with economist Eric Morris.

In the first hour, we're talking about tariffs.

We're talking about the fed rate cut, the state of the economy, answering your questions and more.

Then in our second hour, a campaign to bring more doulas to delivery rooms.

We'll talk about that and get you set for an event that's coming up at the little theater.

It's all happening Monday.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Cariola, center, proud supporter of Connections with Evan Dawson believing an informed and engaged community is a connected one.

Mary Cariola.

>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson Chad Post reminded us that there are a lot of books that could have won the Kafka Prize.

We're talking about the one that did, but if you want to see a longer list, where's the Substack?

Where can people learn more?

>> 3% problem all spelled out Substack.

>> Com and what is happening tomorrow?

Chad?

>> Tomorrow Claire will be reading at 3:00 at the Great Hall in Rushly.

Rush Rhees library on the University of Rochester's campus, and will be there to sign books as well.

>> okay, 3:00 tomorrow, rush rhees for that event.

Taylor Thomas, founder and owner of Archivist Books.

Do you love it when people come in off the street you've never met?

And it's just like, show me something good.

That's got to be the best, right?

>> That's probably what I love the most about my job is just being able to direct someone to something that I like, just feel like they need to read.

and when I wrote that, I was talking about Poor Deer, I had so many people that were like this book, like, changed my life.

So yeah, it's cool.

>> All right.

>> So if you're just joining us, the book is called Poor Deer.

It is even in the author's own words.

It's a sad book.

It's not it's not just a pat, easy, happy ending.

It is a challenging book.

it is a book that explores guilt and grief.

largely through the lens of, a young girl who was growing up.

But she was four years old, and her four year old best friend dies in an accident, and she feels this terrible sense of guilt or really, maybe denies it.

And the Poor Deer becomes this mechanism to sort of confront things.

But tell me a little bit more about when people are sharing their feelings about this.

Clearly, this book is connected with a lot of people.

>> Yeah, I think that when thinking about your affinity for kind of not feeling so like you said, like sometimes people just scroll to not feel an emotion.

And I feel like reading this book.

So I read it first, maybe within like a few hours, and then I read it again and took notes in my journal because it was like something that I felt so deeply about.

The fact that grief is always there, regardless if we pay attention to it or not, like it's still existing in our bodies.

and I think this book kind of made me slow down and realize that maybe as simple as it sounds, facing the things that we've gone through and really kind of making peace with that can just change the trajectory of your life.

And I feel like Margaret's life started once she confronted Poor Deer.

>> So do you also.

>> Feel like there's something here about being maybe gentle with ourselves?

>> I think now more than ever, like, I think it's so necessary to be gentle.

And I will be honest, I don't read a lot of sad stuff because I just, I like to read to just kind of take my mind off of things.

>> Like, life's hard enough.

>> Life's hard enough.

You know?

I just want to read something fun.

Silly.

so this was definitely not in my wheelhouse, but I think it was so necessary, especially now, to just realize that, you know, things are hard, but facing them is what gets us through it.

So.

>> Claire, can I ask you to describe for listeners a little bit about the creation of the character poor, dear, dear.

Again, if listeners are hearing this and not seeing the book, here's the book.

If you're watching on YouTube tell us about poor dear.

>> I've already spoken about how I was trying to write a story where a bad thing happens to a child who's innocent but carries the guilt forward in life.

And wanted a happy ending for that child, and to write a book where there was resolution and forgiveness.

And as I wrote it, it I, I felt like I was denying myself that capability.

I would write a scene that would be pretty nice, that people were being nice to the girl.

She was getting over her trauma.

And then I'd say, no, that feels too easy.

I need to revise the scene.

And it just happened naturally that I kept the good scene and then rewrote, like to have it be.

Probably it would be more like this for this child that she wouldn't forgive herself.

So, so easily and fell into that pattern because of my own editorial voice telling me no, that that would never happen that way.

And then I embodied, I guess you could call it the editorial voice in me, the critical voice who became Poor Deer.

>> Chad Post you talked about why you love the structure of this book.

how would you describe the actual Poor Deer for, for listeners?

>> Well, it's interesting because one thing we haven't talked about here that we did in the book club that took place just before coming here to the radio station is like the Catholic imagery and the, the various religious imagery that shows up in the book.

The Flood.

the pear tree.

There's the priest.

There's a lot of, like, Catholic things that show up in there.

And I think that's really super interesting and does then with Poor Deer, you tied Poor Deer into Mary when we were talking earlier with the coloring of the blue, and I what I personally this is like maybe not answering your question, but with Poor Deer, one of the things I will always remember is the description of the teeth chewing on her hair and like the flat yellow teeth grabbing the hair.

And I was like, oh, my God, this is like, so, visceral and so like visual and reminding me of, like a David Lynch scene of some sort.

So I really liked that part.

But I think it works as a, as a device.

It works incredibly well as like that reflection of like stopping the unreliable, unreliable narrator from continuing down their path and causing some sort of obstacle of reflection, and that that's really important to like how the book is structured, where you have the four year old, where as a reader, you know that a trauma will stand out in someone's mind and you'll remember it in various ways.

But also, a four year old is wondering, like, do you how much do you really remember around that day?

You remember things, but they're a little fuzzy and maybe you did do this.

Maybe you didn't do this.

And the Poor Deer pushing back on that makes the tension work really well for like the first two thirds of the book, as she's trying to figure out who she is and what the story is and what the narrative of her life is up until age 16.

>> Poor Deer can be brutal.

>> Yep.

>> Can I do you mind if I read just a passage?

>> Not at all.

>> I'm just going to read a passage from when Margaret was seven, and this just gives you a sense of the interaction and how brutal Poor Deer could be.

When Margaret started to feel good, things, sometimes Margaret would tell herself there was no Poor Deer riding on her back or crouched in a corner of her bedroom at night.

Then again, she could feel the weight she carried.

She could see poor dears, blank eyes staring out at her in the dark on very bad nights.

Poor dear liked to say to Margaret, I'm very tired.

Turn down the silken covers on your little bed.

And then the musky brute would crawl into bed next to Margaret and throw her cold, swampy legs around the girl, pinning her down and pouring bad dreams into her ear.

Whenever the smallest good thing came along in Margaret's life, whenever she realized she was happy, say, maybe another girl smiled at her at the playground or a pretty stone on the ground caught Margaret's eye.

There, poor dear, would be weeping and screeching.

You don't deserve happy things, you stupid girl.

When you took them all away from your friend.

>> Poor dear is mean.

>> Our psyches can be mean our own.

You know.

We can be very.

That's that's brutal.

That's robbing someone of of happiness every time they start to even feel happy.

That's tough.

>> I think that's true, though, that a child would behave that way.

but I need to tell you that the part you read is sourced by Through the Frog Prince.

and is identical in many ways to the story of the Frog Prince and and I created for Margaret a very limited bunch of books that she's able to read, and she returns to them in her storytelling.

So the Frog prince, the frog really does crawl into bed with that little girl and forces her to to to say what she did wrong and and atone for it.

So I loved that part of the writing, even if it's just for myself.

And people don't always recognize the allusions to the Bible or to Hans Christian Andersen.

and that's that's where that was inspired by as well.

>> for those who are just connecting with your work for the first time, this is your second book.

Tell us about your first book.

>> The first book that was published by echo is called Chouette.

and it's a story about a woman who gives birth to an owl.

That's it was also.

>> Yeah, it's the best tagline.

>> Semiotic, autobiographical in some ways.

But you know, that one came out of needing to get through Stuart Little in my in my third grade class and have have you read that book lately?

It's really scary.

A woman gives birth to a mouse.

It's by E.B.

white, the guy who wrote Charlotte's Web.

>> Remember that part?

Do you know.

>> I remember.

>> Reading it, but I don't remember that.

>> Yeah, she gives birth to a mouse, and and she's very vindictive towards her little mouse baby.

So.

Yeah, look it up.

So I was like, of course the mom would not be so happy.

Yeah.

So that was what inspired Shwet.

>> okay.

and so.

>> It's about trying to deal with, I think every mom has, no matter how good your baby is, it's like the little alien in your life that appears one day.

And you have to, especially your first child, figure out how to keep it alive.

And that's what the book's about.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> My second son was born in July.

I'm in that phase right now.

It's like, boy, this is it's a lot of work.

You're doing nothing for yourself here.

>> Yeah, nobody really acknowledges that.

It's like, oh, your baby, you must be so happy.

And it's very disorienting.

>> That is definitely one word for it.

I mean, he's really lovely.

>> He's great.

Yeah.

>> Of course, but.

>> No.

So that's that's.

Shoot.

and for some of the reviewers who have seen similarities, I thought one of the interesting reviews said, if given these two books, you could understand that they are the same author, even if you weren't told they were the same author.

Is that a compliment to you?

I think that's a compliment.

>> Both of them.

I just really wrote how I felt the sentence should go, and I'm not surprised they sound similar, but I don't know what exactly makes them similar.

>> Have you read Chouette?

>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it was it was a finalist for the prize as well a couple of years ago.

yeah.

I think that that makes sense.

Like it feels there's a certain honesty and directness in the prose that there is something similar in that tone, but they are different books and structure.

And in, in focus.

But yeah, I can yeah, I get that.

I, I think that's a compliment.

I always think that's a compliment when you can tell, like someone's got something that's realized and it doesn't feel like I where it feels like generic.

Someone who's a real writer has like you a really clear, like sense of of writing and of and of voice of tone.

>> You want to add.

>> To that?

Yeah.

>> I was going to say, I think identifiable voices is so important.

And I know, like after I read Poor Deer, I was like, I have to read all your other work because it was just it resonated so well with me.

And I felt like, you have a voice that is like very like honed.

And I'm just really.

Yeah, I thought it was great.

>> And you do have a new book coming out?

>> Yes, yes.

>> It's also written in first person, and it feels like a different voice to me, but also the same that yeah, it it's surprising to me that a sentence will just sort of write itself in a way like this is the word I need next.

And yeah, it's not surprising that they sound similar.

I hope not too similar.

>> No, a.

>> Little similar that people are.

>> Like.

>> I liked your last book.

I hope I like the next.

>> One, no.

>> So tell us about the next.

>> Book.

>> It's called Evil Genius and it comes out in February 2026.

And it's sort of like my antidote to to the sadness of Poor Deer.

It is, I hope, funny.

I mean.

>> I wrote it for a lot when I was writing it.

Yes.

>> And.

My publisher, echo is, is marketing, as they call it, a comic noir.

And it's a it's about a woman who changes her life in very dramatic ways without being mean about it.

She.

I mean, there are a few dead bodies along the way.

It does play with the noir theme, but she herself is is kind of this very nice person.

And you still like her at the end, even though it's noir.

>> All right.

>> That's coming up in about five months.

It's coming out something like that.

>> Something like that.

Yeah.

>> It seems.

>> Seems far away.

>> So.

>> before we let you go, you've talked about a lot regarding this book and the roots of the book and the way it's somewhat autobiographical.

Did you write it for you or did you write it for readers?

Did you want them to come away with feeling certain things.?

>> Every book you write, I write anyway.

I'm not.

Stephen King is speculative.

You're writing something that you have no idea is going to resonate or sell or just sit in your drawer.

And I definitely had a question I wanted to ask myself and answer like, can can you get over this?

Can you learn to forgive?

And how does that happen?

So that's where it came from.

And I'm very grateful that it found a publisher and that it found readers.

>> Are you a forgiving person yourself?

>> Not of me.

I think of other people, and I try to flip that around a little bit, like, well, why?

Why are you okay with that other person doing that thing that you are so mad at yourself for doing?

And I think a lot of us are like that, that we're our own worst enemies.

>> Are you getting better at that?

Are you being more gentle?

>> No, no.

>> Not even not even with this book.

>> Well.

>> The thing about this book, one thing that it helped me with, is to realize how many recurring thoughts I will be like thinking of that bird that ran into my car and died, you know, into the windshield and like, oh, that poor bird.

And it's like, there's those things all through my life that I feel bad about.

And I try to recognize them now and say, oh, okay, that thing, I don't need to worry about that anymore.

But it's hard.

It's hard to forgive yourself.

>> I think there is a there is a beauty and sadness.

and even in tragedy.

And this book is a remarkable one.

And I want to thank you for being here to talk about it.

And you're welcome back any time.

Come back.

Talk about anything you write.

>> Thank you.

>> I would love that.

I really appreciate that.

And Taylor and Chad for for choosing this book, for elevating this book.

This is the winner of the Kafka Prize of 2025.

There's a lot of great books out there.

There's a lot of books that our guests know could have won this prize.

so maybe check out the full list, but if you want a great read this weekend, pick up Poor Deer by Claire Oshetsky.

Thank you Chad Post.

Thanks for reaching out and making this happen.

>> Thank you for having us on.

>> And thank you very much.

Taylor Thomas tell people where to find Archivist Books.

>> 772 Monroe Avenue.

>> You got anything else fun coming up to Chad Post?

>> Oh my God, yeah, we have yeah, we always have good books.

We got a book on on Utopia, but that was built in India called Auroville.

That's coming out in the not too distant future that I'm very excited about right now.

>> Utopia.

>> Yep.

>> Surprise.

Where are you living?

>> It's great.

>> It's.

It's a weird.

>> Book.

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