>>> SO, IN THE UNITED STATES, STORM HELENE HAS SOWN DESTRUCTION IN THE RURAL MIDWEST, ACROSS POVERTY-STRICKEN APPALACHIA.

LIFE-THREATENING FLOODING LEAVING RESIDENTS IN LIMBO.

WHITE WORKING CLASS REGIONS LIKE THESE HAVE BEEN STAIR OWE TYPICALLY ATTACHED TO THE REPUBLICAN MAGA MOVEMENT, BUT OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS THE PICTURE IS FAR MORE COMPLEX.

AUTHOR SARAH SMARSH TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT HER NEW BOOK "BONE TO THE BONE."

>> SARAH, WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> WE LAST TALKED TO ABOUT YOUR MEMOIR "HEARTLAND," NOW YOU ARE BACK WITH A COLLECTION OF ESSAYS.

IS THERE A THROUGH-LINE, A CONNECTING TISSUE AMONG THOSE TWO?

>> WHILE THIS NEW COLLECTION, "BONE OF THE BONE" INVOLVES THE LAST DECADE OF MY WORK AS A JOURNALIST, ACTUALLY, FOR MORE LIKE 20 YEARS, HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT INDEED THE COMMON THEME BETWEEN "HEARTLAND" AND THIS NEW BOOK, WHICH IS SOCIOECONOMIC CLASS, WHICH REMAINS AN UNDERDISCUSSED AND MAYBE POORLY ARTICULATED ASPECT OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE, SO, I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THAT, WRITING ABOUT THAT FOR A LONG TIME.

HAS A LOT TO DO WHERE I COME FROM.

AND THIS COLLECTION IS A DIFFERENT FORM, BUT VERY MUCH THE SAME MESSAGE.

>> AS YOU POINTED OUT, WE DON'T TEND TO TALK ABOUT CLASS IN THIS COUNTRY IN THE WAY THAT PEOPLE IN OTHER COUNTRIES DO.

SO, DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOU FIRST FIGURED OUT THERE WAS THIS THING ABOUT CLASS, AND THAT IT DID AFFECT YOUR LIFE?

>> I DO.

SO, GROWING UP, MY FIFTH GENERATION WHEAT FARM IN KANSAS WHERE I WAS RAISED WAS TECHNICALLY BELOW THE POVERTY LINE, SO, INDEED, WE WERE POOR BY FEDERAL MEASURES.

I NEVER WOULD HAVE USED THAT WORD TO DESCRIBE MYSELF, BECAUSE WE HAD ENOUGH TO EAT AND WE HAD A ROOF OVER OUR HEAD.

THERE WAS A LOT OF WORK THAT WENT INTO KEEPING THOSE TWO THINGS TRUE, AND A LOT OF PRECARETY ABOUT THOSE SITUATIONS, BUT NONETHELESS, YOU KNOW, I WOULDN'T HAVE CONSIDERED MYSELF QUOTE UNQUOTE POOR.

WHEN I LEFT THE FARM TO BECOME A FIRST GENERATION COLLEGE STUDENT, EVEN AT A STATE UNIVERSITY, I FOUND THAT, YOU KNOW, I WAS LOOKING AT KIDS, THEY GOT A CAR FOR HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATIONS, OR THEIR PARENTS SENT THEM CHECKS AND WERE PAYING THEIR WAY -- I COULDN'T FIND A WORD FOR IT.

AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT WHILE I DID GET ACADEMIC SCHOLARSHIPS AND, YOU KNOW, I GOT A PELL GRANT, BECAUSE OF OUR INCOME AND ALL THAT, NUB THELESS, MY IDENTITY WAS OFTEN PRESUMED TO BE AN ECONOMIC PRIVILEGE, ALONG WITH THE RACIAL PRIVILEGE.

ONE OF THOSE CERTAINLY TRUE, AND THE OTHER ONE WAS NOT SO MUCH.

SO, I FOUND THAT THE LANGUAGE WAS LACKING.

>> WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT I NOTICED ABOUT THIS BOOK, I DON'T KNOW THAT I SAW AS MUCH IN "HEARTLAND" BUT I FEEL LIKE I DEFINITELY SEE IN THIS IS THE RAGE.

THERE'S A LOT OF ANGER AT BEING IGNORED.

THERE'S A LOT OF ANGER AT BEING KIND OF MISREPRESENTED.

DO YOU FEEL THAT, DO YOU THINK THAT'S TRUE?

>> I THINK IT'S TRUE, CERTAINLY.

I WOULD LIKE TO THINK AND HOPE THAT, BECAUSE FOR ME, THIS WOULD BE A MARK OF GOOD WRITING.

THERE'S A CONTROLLED FURY ABOUT IT, IF YOU WILL.

I ALREADY DID THE THINKING THROUGH AND PROCESSING OF WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE TRUE THAT I'M THEN CONVEYING WITH, AS YOU SAY, SORT OF THE RAGE, OR THE ANGER AND THE FIRE THAT THAT WAS -- THAT RELATES TO MY EARLY LIFE EXPERIENCES, AND TODAY, YOU KNOW, THE POVERTY AND DISADVANTAGES THAT MY LOVED ONES AND FAMILY FACE STILL.

I DO THINK THE BOOK IS STRUCTURED CHRONOLOGICALLY, FROM 2013 TO PRESENT, AND I THINK THAT IN THE EARLIER PIECES, THERE'S MORE OF THAT EMOTIONAL COMPONENT SPECIFICALLY.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU WRITE ABOUT IS THE DIFFICULTY OF WRITING ABOUT THE SO-CALLED WHITE WORKING CLASS, AND JUST HOW HARD IT IS TO HAVE GOTTEN THESE PIECES PUBLISHED AND SEEN, YOU KNOW, AND OUT THERE.

AND YOU HAVE A LOT OF -- YOU SPECULATED ABOUT A LOT OF THE REASONS THAT MIGHT BE, BUT I DO WONDER WHETHER THE RISE OF DONALD TRUMP AS A NATIONAL FIGURE.

ARE MORE PEOPLE INTERESTED IN YOUR WORK BECAUSE OF IT, OR DOES IT CUT IN ANOTHER WAY, IN A WAY, KIND OF REINFORCING SOME OF THE THINGS THAT MAKE YOU CRAZY?

>> RIGHT, YEAH.

YEAH, I DO -- I THINK IT CUTS IN ALL SORTS OF WAYS.

FOR SURE, CLASS, AND SPECIFICALLY THE WHITE WORKING CLASS, THE WHITE WORKING POOR, IS NOW, YOU KNOW, A KIND OF FIXTURE IN HEADLINES AS A CONCEPT, OR A DEMOGRAPHIC OR A TERM, AND IT IS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE THAT POLITICAL MOVEMENT, AND THAT POLITICAL FIGURE HAS ARTFULLY AND SUCCESSFULLY LEVERAGED, YOU KNOW, POLITICAL TOOLS OF MANIPULATION, IN MY VIEW, TO, YOU KNOW, GARNER A SHIFT TO THE RIGHT AMONG THAT GROUP IN TERMS OF VOTING HABITS.

THERE IS, I BELIEVE, A DISCOURSE THAT DIVERTS ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE I'M REALLY MAD AT, WHICH IS PEOPLE WHO HAVE IMMENSE POWER.

PEOPLE WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT CALL THEM THE PUPPET MASTERS OF OUR POLITICAL MOMENT, YOU MIGHT CALL THEM MEDIOCRE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND LITTLE MORAL COMPASS.

WHETHER IT'S CORPORATIONS OR THE FACTIONS BEHIND DARK MONEY OR, YOU KNOW, I'M INTERESTED IN, YES, WE ABSOLUTELY SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THAT VERY DANGEROUS POLITICAL MOVEMENT THAT IS MAGA, AND HOW IT CAME TO BE AND WHY IT IS.

THE -- WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN TALKING ABOUT, WHERE MY ANGER IS UPWARD, TOWARD THE TOP.

THE VERY TOP.

THE TOP OF THE TOP.

AT A MOMENT OF HISTORIC WEALTH INEQUALITY, THAT HURTS EVERYONE, NOT JUST THE WHITE WORKING CLASS PEOPLE, AND, OF COURSE -- THERE'S ANOTHER ISSUE, IS THAT THE WORKING CLASS, OF COURSE, IS ITSELF RACIALLY DIVERSE AND DIVERSE IN EVERY WAY.

SO, IT HAS BROUGHT THE TERM TO THE FORE IN WAYS THAT IT WAS MISSING FROM OUR DISCUSSION PREVIOUSLY, BUT IN WAYS THAT I BELIEVE ARE PROBLEMATIC AND MISLEADING.

>> I WAS STRUCK BY ONE OF THE ESSAYS, IT'S CALLED -- THAT YOU WROTE FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES," IT'S CALLED "LIBERAL BLIND SPOT S ARE HIDING THE TRUTH."

JUST READ A LITTLE BIT FROM THAT ESSAY, IF YOU WOULD.

>> SURE.

MOST STRUGGLING WHITES I KNOW LIVE LIVES OF QUIET DESPERATION, FEELING ANGRY AT THEIR WHITE BOSSES, NOT AT THEIR COWORKERS OR NEIGHBORS OF COLOR.

MY DAD'S BOSSES WERE PEOPLE HE LOATHED.

IT IS UNFAIR POWER THAT MY DAD DESPISES.

THE LAST RANT I HEARD HIM ON WAS NOT ABOUT RACE OR IMMIGRATION, BUT ABOUT THE RECENT ROYAL WEDDING -- THIS IS A PIECE FROM 2018 -- THE SPECTACLE OF WHICH MADE HIM SICK.

WHAT'S SO SPECIAL ABOUT THE ROYALS, HE TOLD ME OVER THE PHONE FROM A CHEAP MOTEL AFTER WORKING CONSTRUCTION HUNDREDS OF MILES FROM HOME?

BUT THEY'LL GET THE BEST HEALTH CARE, THE BEST EDUCATION, THE BEST FOOD.

MEANWHILE, I'M IN ARKANSAS, ALL I WANT IS SOME CHICKENS AND A GARDEN AND A PLACE TO GO FISHING ONCE IN AWHILE.

WHAT MY FATHER SEEKS IS NOT A RETURN TO TIMES THAT WERE WORSE FOR WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR, BUT PROGRESS IN A SOCIETY IN WHICH EVERYONE CAN GET BY, INCLUDING HIS WHITE COLLEGE EDUCATED SON THAT GRADUATED INTO THE GREAT RECESSION AND FOR TEN YEARS SOLD HIS OWN PLASMA FOR GAS MONEY.

>> YEAH, AND YOU GO ON TO POINT JUST HOW -- I DON'T KNOW THE WORD TO USE, INTEGRATED, DIVERSE, YOUR DAD'S CIRCLE IS, I MEAN, HE WORKS WITH PEOPLE FROM ALL DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS.

BUT HOW THEN DO YOU EXPLAIN, YOU KNOW, THE APPEAL OF SOMEBODY LIKE TRUMP?

I MEAN, SOMEBODY WHO IS RICH, SOMEBODY WHOSE DAD WAS RICH.

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE APPEAL?

>> IT'S HARD TO DO IT.

BECAUSE AS THE PASSAGE BEARS WITNESS TO, MY FAMILY AND MY IMMEDIATE COMMUNITY, WE DON'T GET IT, EITHER.

THERE WAS AN IDEA 20 YEARS AGO, A BOOK CAME OUT CALLED "WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH KANSAS," THAT HOT BUTTON CULTURAL OR SOCIAL ISSUES HAD BEEN LEVERAGED OR SEIZED BY THE FAR RIGHT, OR, YOU KNOW, CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENTS, TO CONVINCE SOME PEOPLE TO QUOTE UNQUOTE VOTE AGAINST THEIR OWN BEST INTEREST IN ECONOMIC TERMS, AND THAT MIGHT BE ABORTION OR OTHER KIND OF CULTURAL AND SOCIAL TOPICS.

IT NEVER SAT WELL WITH ME, AND THE NOTION SEEMS TO SUGGEST THAT PEOPLE ARE STUPID.

I KNOW THEY AIN'T STUPID.

I THINK IT'S MORE LIKE THIS, IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A PLACE AND A PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN ON THE LOSING END IN A LOT OF WAYS, SIMULTANEOUS WITH, IN THE CASE OF WHITE VOTERS, RACIAL PRIVILEGE, I WOULD SAY THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, FOR A FEW DECADES, DIDN'T HAVE MUCH OF A GROUND GAME, IF YOU WILL, IN THOSE PLACES, AND THERE'S -- THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE RESULTS IN STRATEGIC USE OF RESOURCES,.

I'VE NEVER EXPERIENCED A DEMOCRAT KNOCKING ON MY DOOR DURING A CAMPAIGN SEASON, SO, THAT'S ONE.

AND THEN, AT THAT PRECISE MOMENT, LET'S SAY DURING MY '80s CHILDHOOD, THE REAGAN ERA, OR EVEN INTO THE '90s, DURING MY ADOLESCENCE, I'M HEARING ON RADIO STATIONS ON THOSE LONG RIDES DOWN COUNTRY HIGHWAYS, RUSH LIMBAUGH OR CONSERVATIVE TALK RADIO, THEN FOLLOWING FROM THAT WAS FOX NEWS AND NOW, OF COURSE, OUR SOCIAL MEDIA ERA, THERE ARE MESSAGES THAT HAVE COOPTED THE TERMS AND THE SYMBOLS OF THAT PLACE TO SOMEHOW SUGGEST THAT A RURAL IDENTITY MEANS THESE PARTICULAR POLITICAL IDEAS OR THAT THOSE THINGS ARE SYNONYMOUS.

THAT WAS -- THAT'S INTENTIONAL.

IT'S BEEN SUCCESSFUL.

IF NOBODY'S LOOKING AT YOU, IT FEELS LIKE ABOUT INVALIDATION.

IT FEELS LIKE YOU'RE UNSEEN.

IT FEELS LIKE MAYBE YOU'RE GROWING THE FEED OR EXTRACTING THE RESOURCES THAT ARE FUELING OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES WHO ARE LOOKING DOWN ON YOU WHILE YOU'RE DOING THAT WORK, AND NOBODY'S TALKING TO YOU.

AND IF SOMEBODY SHOWS UP AND TALKS TO YOU AND LOOKS RIGHT AT YOU, EVEN IF IT'S A BUNCH OF LIES AND JUST -- TO MY MIND, A HORRIFYING MESSAGE, WELL, WE ARE -- POLITICS IS AN EMOTIONAL BUSINESS, IT'S -- IT'S NOT NECESSARILY SO RATIONAL, AS IT IS FELT.

AND I THINK THAT'S TRUE ACROSS PARTY LINES IN A LOT OF WAYS.

>> IS ANYTHING GETTING BETTER WHEN IT COMES TO THE THINGS THAT HAVE MADE YOU CRAZY ALL THESE YEARS?

>> I THINK SO.

I REALLY THINK THAT EVEN THOUGH, YOU KNOW, -- I JUST GOT DONE TELLING YOU ALL THE WAYS I THINK WE DON'T TALK ABOUT CLASS NECESSARILY PRODUCTIVELY, AT LEAST WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IT, KIND OF, ISH.

AND I WOULD SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S -- THAT'S AN IMPROVEMENT, OVER THE BIG VOID THAT I SENSED AS THAT FIRST GENERATION COLLEGE STUDENT IN 1998 GOING, LIKE, I DON'T -- I DON'T EVEN HAVE A WORD FOR WHAT'S GOING ON HERE, BUT THERE'S SOMETHING.

SO, I BELIEVE WE HAVE BEGUN THAT CONVERSATION, AND WE'RE NEW AT IT, WE'RE -- WE'RE EARLY.

WE NEED -- WE NEED JUST A DIVERSE SPATE OF PEOPLE AND EXPERIENCES AND PROFESSIONS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO IT, TO IMPROVE THE LANGUAGE.

BUT YEAH, I THINK -- I THINK WE'RE -- WE'VE BEGUN THE JOURNEY, AND THAT IS HEARTENING TO ME.

>> YOU CERTAINLY HAVE DONE YOUR PART, WITH YOUR -- WITH YOUR WORK.

SOME PEOPLE MIGHT ARGUE, SO HAS J.D.

VANCE.

HE CAME TO FAME BECAUSE OF HIS OWN MEMOIR, "HILLBILLY ELEGY," WHICH WAS MADE INTO A MOVIE, AND NOW HE'S, YOU KNOW, BECOME, YOU KNOW, AN IMPORTANT PUBLIC FIGURE.

CANDIDATE FOR THE VICE PRESIDENCY.

IF HE WINS THAT JOB OR NOT, HE'S IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE, RIGHT?

I'M JUST CURIOUS ABOUT WHAT YOU MAKE OF HIM.

>> RIGHT.

WHEN YOU ASKED ABOUT -- IF THE TRUMP ERA, IF YOU WILL, HAD SORT OF BEEN A BOONE FOR ME PROFESSIONALLY, ARE PEOPLE MORE INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY SORT OF THING, ACTUALLY, I TURNED DOWN A LOT OF INVITATIONS, RIGHT AROUND THAT MOMENT THAT THAT BOOK HAD COME OUT, TO BE A SORT OF TRUMP WHISPERER, IF YOU WILL, BECAUSE JUST -- IT WASN'T -- IT WASN'T MY MESSAGE, IT WASN'T RIGHT TO ME, I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO EXPLAIN IT MYSELF.

AND SO, I DO THINK PRETTY CLEARLY I'VE FOUND A GROOVE IN THAT SENSE AND THEN WROTE IT INTO POLITICS WITH A CAPITAL P AS HIS OWN PROFESSIONAL SHIFT.

THAT BOOK ALWAYS HAD A LOT OF RED FLAGS IN IT FOR ME.

>> BECAUSE WHY?

>> YEAH, SO, I DON'T BEGRUDGE -- EVEN IF I DON'T AGREE WITH POLITICS, HE'S TELLING HIS STORY ABOUT WHERE HE CAME FROM, AND I WAS, LIKE, CHEERING FOR ANYBODY, THEY BEAT THE OLDS TO HAVE THEIR STORY TOLD.

THAT SAID, IT DID STRIKE ME AS KIND OF A CONSERVATIVE -- PARTICULARLY TOWARD THE END OF THE BOOK.

WHAT FELT TO ME LIKE A LOT OF FINGER WAGGING AT THE VERY PLACE THAT HE COMES FROM, AND THE PEOPLE THAT HE COMES FROM, PINNING THEIR, YOU KNOW, POOR OUTCOMES OR NEGATIVE LIFE CIRCUMSTANCES ON THEIR OWN DECISIONS, WITH SOME SORT OF MORAL FRAMEWORK RELATING TO CHARACTER.

AS SOMEONE WHO -- I'VE NEVER -- I'VE ALWAYS REJECTED THE NARRATIVE ABOUT GETTING OUT, SO TO SPEAK.

YOU KNOW, I HAVE BEEN VERY FORTUNATE TO, IN MY CAREER, BUT I LIVE IN RURAL KANSAS TODAY, AND I WENT BACK WITH AN INTENTION TO WRITE ABOUT AND DOCUMENT THAT SPACE AND EXPERIENCE, NOT IN THE REAR VIEW MIRROR, AND IT SEEMED TO ME LIKE HE WAS WRITING A STORY ABOUT THE PAIN, AND THAT'S REAL, ABOUT WHERE HE CAME FROM, BUT ALSO WITH -- A VERY SPECIFIC FRAMEWORK ABOUT -- YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVE, KIND OF FELT LIKE WHAT WAS AN UNDERCURRENT, OR AN UNDERPINNING, AND I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S FAIR OR NOT, BUT IT'S HOW IT STRUCK ME.

AND THAT DOES KIND OF CORRELATE MORE WITH THE CONSERVATIVE POLITICS, IN MY VIEW, SO, I -- I'M NOT ALL THAT -- I'M NOT ALL THAT SURPRISED THAT HE WENT INTO -- THAT HE SOUGHT ELECTED OFFICE AND THAT HE'S NOW, YOU KNOW, KIND OF AN XEM PARTICULAR OF THAT KIND OF CONSERVATIVE -- I DON'T WANT TO SAY APPROPRIATION OF, BUT CLAIMING OF CERTAIN SYMBOLS AS THOUGH COUNTRY OR BLUE JEANS OR COWBOY BOOTS MEANS A CERTAIN SET OF BELIEFS.

I -- I KNOW FIRST-HAND THAT THAT'S NOT TRUE, EVEN ON MY OWN DIRT ROAD.

>> WELL, BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, WHO -- WHO ARE YOU -- WHO ARE YOU HOPING WILL FIND YOUR BOOK?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S ALWAYS LOVELY, IF SOMEONE SAYS -- AND YOU MIGHT APPRECIATE THIS, AS A PROFESSIONAL COMMUNICATOR, IF SOMEONE SAYS, I READ THIS, AND NOW MY EYES ARE OPEN TO THIS THING THAT I DIDN'T KNOW BEFORE.

BOY DOES THAT MAKE MY HEART SING.

BUT THE THING THAT REALLY IS JUST THE MOST MOVING AND GRATIFYING FOR ME IS IF IT'S SOMEONE FOR WHOM IT -- IT'S NOT THAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THIS THING, NOW THEY KNOW, IT'S THAT THEY ALWAYS KNEW THIS THING, AND NOBODY SAID IT FOR THEM, AND NOW THEY FEEL SEEN IN SOME WAY, FOR HAVING READ IT.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S KIND OF AN OLD WRITING ADAGE, WRITE THE THING YOU WISH EXISTED, OR YOU WOULD LIKE TO READ YOURSELF, AND "HEARTLAND" AND THEN THIS COLLECTION, THESE ARE MESSAGES AND IDEAS THAT I DIDN'T ACCESS, WEREN'T AVAILABLE TO ME AS A KID, IN A STRUGGLING RURAL SPACE, AND SO, IF NOW SOMEONE IN THAT SPACE FEELS SEEN, THAT WOULD BE MY -- MY GREATEST -- MY GREATEST HOPE.

>> SARAH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANKS, ALWAYS A PLEASURE.