>> Hi, I'm Geni Flowers.

I'm a librarian at USC Beaufort In The Shadow In Moscow, readers can expect to find the usual, the espionage, the intrigue, the MI6, the CIA, you know, all of that exciting adventure, but you also find the deeper meaning of the love story.

It's very much a love story, and it's a love story between people that can't or shouldn't fall in love, and it's more, more than that, it's the love story of a mother and a daughter and...the sacrifices that they make, but what I liked most about Shadow in Moscow, I loved the writing, the way that Katherine Reay ...writes is wonderful, very descriptive, very vivid imagery.

I felt like I was there, and the story, the storyline was wonderful.

I love the way she tied the characters in, and any, the epilogue was when I like to have a story that is, that comes full circle and it's closed.

I loved the writing.

Catherine Reay's writing style is so very well researched, and the vivid imagery, for instance, the younger girl, Anya, talks about the freedom of reading, which is so very big with all of us, and especially a librarian's heart, and when she's in Georgetown, she's amazed at the fact that she can read anything she wants to read, and she makes a comment along the lines of, you know, the words danced off my heart like a minuet, not a Dirge, and to me, that summed up the two cultures, the Russia versus the American culture, and it really touched me very deeply, but her writing is very vivid.

She talks at about a dance, a ball at the embassy in Russia, and how the red lacquered floors and the green jade pillows with the...gold, and you could just feel yourself there, and the chandeliers as big as cars that you could dance, and it was like putting off a million points of lights, like dancing under the stars, very vivid.

>> I'm Holly Jackson.

Join us as we bring you powerful stories from both new and established Southern authors as we sit By The River.

♪ opening music ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Major funding for By The River is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than 40 years, the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio.

Additional funding is provided by the USCB Center for the Arts Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USCB and the Pat Conroy Literary Center.

>> It is another beautiful day here at our Waterfront studio in Beaufort, South Carolina.

As part of our love letter to southern writing, we are bringing new powerful stories from both new and established authors.

And this season we are focusing on unexpected stories and writers, and we are here with author of a Shadow in Moscow, Katherine Reay.

Katherine, thanks so much for joining us.

I'm really looking forward to this, and you know, sometimes these... covers are like a standout, and this is one of those books in particular, and I always kind of like to know, sometimes there's a story and sometimes... ...there's not.

So I'm going on the idea that there might be here, <Katherine> A story behind a cover?

<Holly> a story behind the, behind a cover.

So did you have any kind of say so in how the, the cover went?

<Katherine> I did.

You know, we...always get a bit of a say-so.

And in this one, at first, she only had her feet and it was all shadow.

And this is one of the characters in the story.

She is the Shadow in Moscow, and then in another iteration, we actually saw her face.

I didn't wanna see her face, but I did wanna see the shadow, and so it was really her positioning, but I loved the idea of having Moscow and the cathedral within the water to show, you know, she's moving forward.

You can't see who she is, sense of place where she is, and by her clothing, you can tell she's hopefully in the early days of the Cold War, because she starts spying for MI6 in Moscow in 1958.

<Holly> You know, I'm always fascinated by having to capture basically an entire book in one, in one frame, you know?

And so it must be difficult for those who, who have that task, but it's very beautiful.

All right, so let's kind of rewind.

Okay.

What is the book about?

<Katherine> Okay, so the book is about, it's a really a close intimate look at two women, their loves, their lives, their losses, their sacrifices, but what it makes it really interesting is these women are spies working in the heart of Moscow during the Cold War.

The woman on the cover is Ingrid Bauer.

She's an Austrian born woman, marries a Soviet diplomat, moves to Moscow, and it is a little unsettling what she sees versus what she's grown up, and she starts to spy for MI6 in 1958.

So she has her storyline, and she is the consummate spy, the shadow, and so in many ways, that means no one knows who she is.

She's living and working in this place where she has this dual persona, but the other spy, Anya Kadinova is not quite as adept.

She makes mistakes.

She's a little impetuous.

Also, you know, she lives in the Soviet Union and she starts to spy for MI- no not MI.

She starts, starts to spy for the CIA, and their two storylines come together in 1985, when Aldrich Ames, who was the head of the CIA's desk of Eastern European and Soviet Affairs at that time.

In 1985, he decided he wanted a little money and he was willing to betray his country to get it.

So he sold a list of names to the KGB, and this is all true, sold a list of names to the KGB, effectively signing the death warrants for dozens of agents behind the Iron Curtain.

So at the conclusion of the book, these two spies come together as the CIA and MI6 are rushing to get these women out of Moscow alive.

<Holly> As you say this, I'm thinking through my head, there must have been an awful lot of research involved.

<Katherine> There's a ton.

>> Tell me about that process.

Did you, I mean, you were an established author, you've been through this before.

Did you know how much, how much time was that?

And were you prepared for what it was gonna be like?

<Katherine> I don't know if you're ever prepared, you know what I mean?

Because every story, the research is different, but on this one, you're, you're absolutely right.

It was a deep dive into Cold War history, 30 year span, and then it was a deep dive into the country's cultures, and not only the country's cultures, but how they perceived each other, the ordinary citizenry, how we perceived those in the Soviet Union, how they perceived us, and then it was a look at spies, spies during the Cold War, because unlike, you know, in World War II literature, say Virginia Hall, who spied for the British in France.

She went from America to Britain, spied in France, escaped with her life.

Cold War spies tend to work and live where they were spying, and so every single day, 24/7, they live these dual lives and nobody really knew them, and so that's a lot of pressure.

<Holly> Right.

>> And so it was studying that too.

Two things really helped me out.

Number one, in 1985, I visited the USSR, and so I remembered we were not allowed to take pictures at that time, but I remembered the way it felt and what things looked like, and so I drew upon that, but also two women who grew up in Moscow in the 1980s shared with me their stories, the books, they were able to read, the books they were able to read that they were forbidden to read.

Just life where they spoke to their friends, where they could be honest with their friends, what school was like, and so that added a lot of texture to the story, but mostly it was a lot of reading.

<Holly> Right.

>> Which I loved.

I gotta be honest with you.

I loved it.

<Holly> That's your game.

Okay.

So I, I think I remember hearing you say that it was 1984 that you went on this trip there.

<Katherine> Yeah.

1985.

Yeah.

>> And 85?

<Katherine> Yep.

>> Okay.

>> So it must have been - Were you writing at that time?

<Katherine> No...I was not writing at that time.

>> That was before writing.

Okay.

<Katherine> Yeah.

>> But do you feel like that trip, was it a short trip or was it a study in fall.

<Katherine> No, it was a pretty long...trip.

No, it was with my parents actually and my family.

No, that did not - did that?

I didn't think at that time I would be a writer, to be honest.

<Holly> Okay...do you think that experience really had an effect and impact on this book?

<Katherine> It absolutely did.

<Holly> Okay.

<Katherine> Yes, you are right.

I did not think at the time I'd be a writer, but when I had finished my previous book, which does take place in the early days of World War II in London, and I was looking for that next story, that trip was one of the first things I thought about.

I wanted to kind of move into the Cold War, and, you know, memories of that trip came into play and the story just started unfolding and it was really fun.

<Holly> ...that's something I really love.

It's just how, you know, 30 so years later <Katherine> Yeah.

<Holly> That, that.

<Katherine> Our life experiences- >> How...they have such an impact, and, and you don't even really think about it, until you think about it.

<Katherine> Right.

Until you're there.

<Holly>Right.

<Katherine> Until it hits you.

<Holly> All right.

So...you've told us you're a reader.

What is your genre of choice?

<Katherine> Oh, I don't have one.

I'm a.

<Holly> Across the board.

>> Crazy across the board genre.

Now I will not read horror.

<Holly> Okay.

>> I tried.

My imagination is so visual that I have tried every time and it terrifies me.

Absolutely terrifies me.

Up for days.

In fact, I got 12 pages into It by Stephen King.

My daughter's like, it's the best book ever.

Read it!

<Holly> Yeah.

<Katherine> 12 pages in and I'm like, I can't do it.

But I forgot, I've got a really YA fantasy bent to my personality.

I think Lord of the Rings is the best book I've ever read, But I love non-fiction.

I love biographies and memoirs, but I'm always reading fiction too.

I'm always reading something that's new so that I, I see where the genre is being taken, whether, you know, contemporary, just fiction where it's headed, but I always try to read a classic at the same time.

This past year when researching this book, I dug into Dostoevsky and Tolstoy and they always intimidated me before, and by their length, they should.

So worth reading though.

<Holly> Okay.

>> I mean, Ooh.

So powerful.

<Holly> Here we are sitting in Beaufort, South Carolina.

So I always have to ask like, do you have any kind of southern connection?

Do you have any kind of pull to the South at all?

<Katherine> I do.

<Holly> Please tell me about that.

<Katherine> I'm so happy to be here.

I'm glad you asked me that question.

<Holly>Yeah.

>> So I've moved a lot in my life.

<Holly> Okay.

<Katherine> I mean a lot, and currently I do live outside Chicago, but I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia, and that comes into my stories, you know, we talked about, you know, sort of those life experiences that just pop up and you don't recognize it.

I almost always have a character from Atlanta or a setting in Atlanta.

It just keeps popping up, but then closer to here, one grandmother was born and raised in Charleston and she was not the first generation in her family to be born and raised in Charleston, and I need to do a little ancestral research there, and now, my other grandmother, grandparents had a house on Seabrook Island, and so growing up I was in Atlanta and I was here in the Low country in South Carolina quite often.

<Holly> Wonderful.

>> So, and those where you... where grow up forms you.

<Holly> Absolutely.

<Katherine> I mean, it leaves its indelible impression upon your soul.

<Holly> There's no doubt about it, and I love that you're taking experiences from so many places.

So <Katherine> Yeah, <Holly> I'm sure at a young age it wasn't so easy to be moving around, but now you are enjoying the benefits of it.

<Katherine> Now it's just exhaustion though.

You know, you move your kids and everything else though.

I think we've stopped the great years of moving as I called them.

<Holly> Yeah, you always said this is the last time.

<Katherine> It's the last time.

<Holly> It happens one more time.

Sometimes.

<Katherine>You know, my kids got to grow up in Dublin, Ireland, >> Oh wow.

<Katherine> and London, England and Seattle, Washington, and we've - Austin, Texas.

We lived a lot of really interesting places.

<Holly> That's great.

All right, tell me about your readers.

Everybody has that kind of inner circle that who they might trust.

Who is gonna, it's gonna give some real good feedback.

And when I say good sometimes I mean bad.

You know, <Katherine> You need the bad.

<Holly> Right.

<Katherine> From that inner circle.

Only from the inner circle.

<Holly> Right.

Cause anybody else, it's like, wait, you're not in there.

Who is that inner circle if you'll tell us?

<Katherine> My first reader is always my sister.

<Holly>Okay.

<Katherine> And she is, she manages a bookstore and she's a writer herself.

But she's a phenomenal editor and she pushes me and I really appreciate that.

And she is pretty much my first and only reader until it goes to my agent.

<Holly> Wow.

<Katherine> And then she is my second reader.

>>What an honor she has.

<Katherine> Yes, I know.

<Holly> But have you made some major changes based on her recommendations?

<Katherine> Yes, I have.

I have.

<Holly> Really?

>> Yes.

<Holly> And she's probably bringing it down a lot.

And I love what in... terms of work now I love that she works at a bookstore so she knows what the people want.

<Katherine> She knows what the people want and she knows, you know, how to get to the point, and so it's, she's a very powerful reader and so generous with her time.

I have to be honest, that's not an easy job to have someone.

<Holly> Right.

That's a big ask, it's hours.

<Katherine> And say, you know, give me all your best advice.

<Holly> Right.

>> That's a huge ask.

<Holly> That is, that is.

So, alright, so we've talked, this is number 10, I believe.

Right?

<Katherine> This is number 10.

<Holly> Okay.

<Katherine> Yeah.

<Holly>So tell me about how long this book took you to write versus some your...other ones.

<Katherine> This one probably took a good two years.

I started, as I was finishing up the London House, which was the previous novel, I started researching this one and let it percolate while I was editing that one, but it really took two years, which is longer than usual, But it was one of those stories that needed the time, and I was so happy to have the time, there, just the way the schedule worked out.

I had the time and I could make it a different richer story, richer in history.

<Holly> Now as you're giving me this timeline of, of all these past few years, have kind of run together.

But.

<Katherine> I know >>Was this... pandemic writing?

<Katherine> This was pandemic writing.

<Holly> Okay.

>> And coming out of pandemic.

<Holly> Okay.

>> I...you know, I kind of just wonder where that gray line is.

<Holly> I know, true.

>>But.

<Holly> Are we still here?

>> Right.

It was absolutely pandemic writing.

and...coming out of it.

<Holly> Okay.

>>...by the time I might've been able to travel to Moscow because we, the world had opened up, they were at war and I did not travel to Moscow again.

<Holly> Right.

Right.

<Katherine> So I did on the ground research for this book.

<Holly> Your research.

Right.

Had completed.

Okay.

Tell me about your writing process, your time of day, or do you really, are you very self-disciplined about when you write, you know, certain hour to hour?

Or is it kind of when the spirit leads you?

So to speak.

<Katherine> I do.

I think if anyone relies on the spirit leading them, they may not get any writing done.

The spirit doesn't lead very often say.

<Holly> People say this is a 10 year book.

I'm like, okay.

Maybe that reminds people.

<Katherine> It's...I do have a schedule.

But you know, it's interesting.

It's not a day by day fixed.

I have just taken up running again after a six year hiatus, and I find I like to do that in the morning.

So the writing gets pushed a little later.

But that's almost part of the writing process too, because I'm thinking through ideas while I run, and...so it's always playing.

<Holly> The only bad part is you can't really take notes.

<Katherine> You can't take notes.

<Holly>You've got to remember.

<Katherine> No, it's so true.

<Katherine> You can't run too long or you start to lose that thread, those thoughts, but in an ideal week I would write four to five hours a day.

<Holly> Okay.

>> Which doesn't seem that much, but then I'd also read or...kind of assess the story for two to three hours a day.

So, kind of in my ideal work week, I am working eight hours a day, but on different aspects of the book.

<Holly> Sure.

<Katherine>...and that changes on where I am in the research.

You know, there could be 40 hour weeks where, or 50 hour weeks where it's just reading and note taking.

And then other times when it's only editing, it's, it feels like it's a very static process, but it's really a very dynamic process, but yet it's a marathon, not a sprint.

<Holly> There you go, and, since you're in running mode now.

<Katherine> There you go.

>> You're using those terms.

I like it.

<Katherine> I always think in those terms.

This is not a sprint.

>> I believe I heard one of your friends say that this really brings out strong women, and I know there are a lot of women who are really following that idea right now, and so how would you speak to that in terms of, you know, the... strong women coming out, coming to play in this book?

<Katherine> Well, they're spies first of all.

So really what I think what I think makes them strong women are their convictions, the sacrifices they're willing to make and the sacrifices they're not willing to make, the jobs they do, obviously, and they're committed to those jobs, but I think what makes them really strong is sort of their voice and that they're true to that voice.

It's really, and they are absolutely, you know, to be honest, framed by the time and the circumstances in which they live.

Both these women are operating in a totalitarian regime in Moscow.

They're not shouting from the street corners what they believe, but they're making choices and they're influencing those around them, and I think that is where a strength definitely lies.

So there you go.

<Holly> One...thing I really like reading in the book is acknowledgements.

Cause I like to know where you get your strength from, and I love that you gave a little shout out to the libraries and, <Katherine> Oh yeah.

<Holly> your fellow writers.

So tell me how, and that's something, and I, those who follow this show, know that I often say this and I say it often because I... feel so strongly about it, how much I admire the friendship, support of that writer circle, because at the end of the day, you know, a reader is deciding between that one and that one, and so I love how you all support each other.

<Katherine> Yeah.

<Holly> Tell me about that experience with you, what it's like, and also we can touch on libraries because it's always good to love libraries.

Throw in a plug for them.

Me too.

<Katherine> Exactly.

Writers, writers as friends, number one.

They know what you're going through and they know it's not only the craft of writing, but it's all the emotions that go into it.

Writing is an incredibly creative process, which means you are, whether you're writing, I think non-fiction, fiction, you're giving a little bit of yourself to everything you write.

and that is a self emptying in many ways, and so other writers understand that and they understand the ups and downs of that, and the, and it's so nice to have those friends come alongside, because while it feels in many ways, like a solitary process, it also is a very community process, and your...point is valid that when you go, when one goes to a bookstore, there's this book or that book, and yet when you're championing somebody else's book, I don't believe you're ever taking away from your audience.

I think readers also understand that when you're championing someone else's book, that there's a generosity in your heart about reading and they want to support you too.

<Holly>True.

<Katherine> So I...do think that this community just continues to engender great community.

<Holly> I like that.

I like that a lot, and then we were talking about libraries.

I know that the...pandemic really put a shutdown on going out and, you know, meeting the readers face-to-face.

<Katherine> Yeah.

>>...there was so much online, which was great because you're seeing faces that you may not have seen before, but there's something special about that face-to-face.

So what is it like for you to be back to that and, you know, being back in those libraries and doing those talks and that sort of thing?

>> Okay.

So I have to tell you, I love it.

I'm an introvert and, but I love that because, and someone did a study on this and I thought it was really interesting.

Zoom, fabulous.

I love doing Zoom talks, but that loss of personal connection, because you're through the screen, it actually, you... don't get, not, I don't even know how to phrase it, but that emotional sort of back and forth, that one gets in person, and so after the end of a long Zoom day, you feel more exhausted than you do at the end of a long day at a library meeting people, and so I'm really happy to be back, face-to-face.

I enjoy that more.

It feels like an intimate conversation with someone.

<Holly> Right.

<Katherine> Rather than... <Holly>...they're probably gonna share those more personal.

<Katherine> Yeah.

<Holly> Conversations with you in person too.

<Katherine> Yes, and so I love it and I'm so happy that with the Shadow in Moscow, I will be out and about in the world.

<Holly> Very good.

<Katherine> Yeah.

<Holly>I'm sure people will be looking for you at those spots.

All right.

So tell me what you're working on now.

<Katherine> Okay, so I'm not leaving the Cold War because I really enjoy it.

<Holly> You're there.

>> I mean, just for the moment, I am, I seem to move genres.

I used to write contemporary fiction, now I'm writing historical, but it's not any way related to a Shadow in Moscow.

My new story is framed by the rise and fall of the Berlin Wall, and it is a story of a young woman discovering family and discovering her own voice and who she is and a few secrets and a few spies and all the rest, and I'm having a lot of fun with it.

<Holly> Very nice.

And then...in terms of your reading, we've talked about, you read all genres, but what are you reading right now?

<Katherine> Okay, so I'm trying to think what, well, I'm reading a lot about the Cold War and Berlin.

<Holly> Yeah.

Well, I always hear about these people with this stack, by the bed, you know, and there's the... >>There is a stack by the bed.

<Holly> First priority, the A-list, the B-list, and all these things that are about to tumble on top of you.

<Katherine> I... will be honest though, my stack is Berlin based at the moment.

I am reading The Brothers Karamazov at the moment too.

I also am reading a couple arcs, like there's some interesting books that are coming out soon.

Very excited about those, but I'm trying to think of, I just, this is terrible.

I just put down a book and was blown away by it.

Well I think the most recent book I was blown away by was Amor Towles' the Lincoln Highway.

<Holly> Okay.

<Katherine> I really love his prose and story construction, and everything else.

I thoroughly enjoyed that, and let's see, I'm trying to think.

There's so many books.

I'm completely muddling.

<Holly> They...all like come together.

Yeah, and then you said you're a mother of three?

<Katherine> I'm a mother of three.

<Holly> Okay.

So have you seen an interest in writing or reading with your children?

<Katherine> No.

>> No?

Isn't that funny how that goes?

<Katherine> My son will be heading to law school next fall.

So he will have an interest in reading.

<Holly> Right, whether he likes or not >> He will be reading.

Yeah <Holly> He's going to.

<Katherine> No, he was a history major in college, so, I really can't say that he doesn't have an interest in reading, but I don't think any of them have an interest in writing.

My second child, my daughter is in school for architecture.

<Holly> Okay.

>>...just brilliant, like the, the creative mind and the...steady hand.

He's extraordinary, and then my youngest is in finance in college.

He studied finance and I think we'll head sort of the investment banking route.

<Holly> Very nice.

>> So... <Holly> Now, were you a history major?

<Katherine> I was.

<Holly> Okay.

Right.

That makes sense because you, you definitely have a strong interest in it.

>>Yeah.

I can't believe it took me so long to get there with my writing, but yeah, I love history.

<Holly> And Cold War now, then Berlin, what other places do you envision going next, as far as your writing?

<Katherine> Well, I tell you, that's a tough one for me because I am a one idea at a time writer.

When I finish a manuscript, there is a moment of sheer panic that another idea will never float my way, and so I can't answer the question because I have no clue.

<Holly> But...it always comes to you when the time happens.

<Katherine> Thank goodness.

It keeps, <Holly>There's that fear that it might not.

<Katherine> Yeah.

It's a true fear too, but yes, the ideas do keep coming.

So I'm not sure about the next one now.

<Holly>Yeah, you have to wait and see.

We might be out here next.

All right.

Well thank you so much for joining us.

This has been a real treat to have you here on By The River and looking forward to seeing what's next, and good luck on all that research.

It sounds intense.

<Katherine> It is intense.

I like it though.

<Holly> Good.

And thank you everybody for joining us here on By The River.

It's always nice to have you around.

I'm your host, Holly Jackson.

We'll see you right back here soon, By The River.

<Katherine> Moscow, Russia.

January 17th, 1984.

Again, I ask myself, does the end draw everyone back to the beginning?

The golden glow of memory fades: my parents, my friends, Dimitri, Scott, Sonya, Tracy.

Their faces float passed along with my musings on Lizzie Bennett and Kitty Scherbatsky.

Friends can't help me now.

Books can't help me now, I am in an end of my own making.

There's so much I need to do and fast.

Should I go see my parents, try to offer an oblique goodbye?

Will that put them into danger or are they already in danger?

What about all those things I said to Sonya, when I die, they'll question her again and she'll be more frightened.

How much more will she say and will that implicate her too?

What a fool, I've been, Oliver's warned me day one, there could be no cracks in the facade, no truth among my lies.

He told me to play a part and to be careful, to make sure no one questioned my loyalty, dedication, and commitment to the Soviet state.

♪ closing music ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Major funding for By The River is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina for more than 40 years The ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio.

Additional funding is provided by the USCB Center for the Arts Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USCB and the Pat Conroy Literary Center.

♪