[authoritative music] ♪ [authoritative music continues] ♪ [authoritative music continues] ♪ [authoritative music continues] ♪ [authoritative music concludes] - Hello, and welcome to "Comic Culture."

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is artist Kayla E. Kayla, welcome to "Comic Culture."

- Thank you.

- Kayla, we met at HeroesCon this year, and you were across the street a little bit from where we had our booth set up, and you had this really cool collection called "Precious Rubbish."

- [Kayla] That's right.

- And despite the looks, this is not necessarily for the younger set.

This is a sort of biographical comic, so what can you tell us about "Precious Rubbish"?

- It's definitely not for the kiddos.

It's actually something when I table, I have to, like, tell the kids who are drawn to my work, which makes sense because it is very cartoony and bright, that, like, "Ooh, "you better get your mom and dad over here," you know, like, "I'm so sorry, but you cannot read my work," and it's, like, really painful to actually, like, tell kids they can't read comics, but it's definitely in their best interest 'cause yeah, "Precious Rubbish" is the name of an overarching body of work, not just my comics, but all of my memoir work about my childhood, so I grew up in a small town in Texas in really intense poverty with two divorced parents who had untreated personality disorders and had just about every bad thing that could happen to a little girl happen to me, and it was really difficult to survive, and so this body of work is an opportunity for me to revisit the memories of my childhood in a way that allows me to understand them with better clarity, like, I see, especially when I am telling these stories through comics, I see this as an opportunity to remember and to document what I remember because I don't know, it's like this for a lot of people, but I know it's like this for me, that my memory, sometimes it goes in and out, and sometimes, I don't believe my own memories, you know?

So in a lot of ways, this is, it functions as a document like that, but yeah, so it's, I have a book coming out from Fantagraphics.

It's a collection of all the comics work under that umbrella.

2025 is when it will be out.

- And what's fascinating about this because you cover some dark subjects, and it's sometimes an uncomfortable read.

It's interesting because you choose to tell the story with a sense of humor.

There's an underlying, I'm not gonna say a smile, but certainly, a wink to- - I'm so glad you see that, though.

- So when you're doing this, when you're kind of looking at something painful, how does that humor help you kind of maybe deal with what's going on and help you get it on the page?

- Yeah, first of all, I just have to say it makes me so happy to hear that you found it funny 'cause I actually have a lot of readers who have, like, read, like, early stages of my manuscript and even just, like, the finished version of it, and they said they never smiled once.

They didn't find any of it funny.

My mentor, Mark Newgarden, told me that it's the scariest book he's ever read, and he's a humorist.

I mean, he's very, he's, like, interested in, like, really dark humor, but he's, like, a jokes man, you know?

And he said he never laughed at the book, and I'm just, like, really delighted to hear that because I think my book is hilarious.

Like, I actually, whenever I'm going back through it and, like, revisiting some of the pages, I laugh out loud, and I think that, as a survivor, I know it's true.

I'm also in recovery as an alcoholic, and I know, like, fellow recovering alcoholics, like, we all just have this understanding of, like, the way that we survive this trauma is by laughing at it, and, like, I think that being able to lose some self-seriousness with even my own story, I think has been really important for me, and I think that the humor, also, I feel like it allows other survivors to see themselves in my work 'cause I feel like when you're laughing at my, not at my trauma, but with me at the trauma, it kind of like breaks, it breaks something down that, like, I feel like allows other people to kind of come in.

It's not like this, like, wall of mourning, if that makes sense, and so I'm always just, like, really kind of moved when people are able to see some of the humor in there because it's actually, like, a really rare response.

Like, that's extremely unique that you're able to see that, so it's really cool to hear.

- Well, I come from a big family, and we tend to laugh at ourselves.

- Okay, great.

[laughs] - And so, I mean, there are times when we'll tell a family story, and I will look over and folks will be horrified, you know, you what?

And it's, again, it's just sort of how you deal with things, and my situation completely different from yours, but yeah, that humor makes it accessible for me, as a reader, and, I'm sure, for other readers, but, you know, if someone who is reading this is going through something or has gone through something similar, it will, I think, kind of reach them in a way that it wouldn't reach me, so have you heard back from any readers who have maybe said, you know, "This really helped me see things clearly?"

- Yeah, man, that's an excellent question, and is, like, the most meaningful and serious aspect of, like, my life as an artist is when I hear from my readers, and that happens exclusively right now at cons since I'm, like, relatively unpublished, that's the way that I interact with my readers, and I'm, like, not particularly active on social media, so when I'm able to connect with people, it's shocking how vulnerable strangers can be with me.

I've had folks disclose to me that they've been survivors of the things that I've survived.

I've talked to people about this subject matter, and they've, like, acknowledged to me that they've never said this out loud before.

I mean, like, very intense conversations are generated with this work, and I think that when I was making it, it's just, like, absolutely terrible to make these comics, and I did not know what was gonna happen once I shared them with the world.

I had hopes that, like, hopefully, it would, like, mean something to people, but how do I know?

You know, like, hopefully, it'll, like, mirror other people's experiences, but again, I was making it, like, in isolation.

I hadn't really been published yet.

No one was seeing the work, so in this new world that I'm stepping into, I'm finding all the reasons why I needed to keep going and all the reasons why I had to make this work, and it's for these people that, for the most part, have not seen themselves mirrored in this way, like, unfortunately, child abuse is, like, just such a common experience, and I think, because I've survived so many different forms of abuse, that there's just, like, a wide arena for people to identify with me.

Like, I'll have folks, like, identify with just the addiction aspect of my story or just, like, the growing up hungry aspect of my story or, you know, other kids whose moms never gave them a haircut, you know, and just, like, there's a lot, you know, and I've got, like, a very intense story with my bio-dad that, like, looks a certain way and then another intense story with my bio-mom, and it's just very different, those relationships, and very specific to, like, a father-daughter, mother-daughter type dynamic that has really resonated with people in different ways, so that has been so beautiful and reassuring and has definitely given me the, like, gumption I think I needed to keep going 'cause this is a very scary thing I'm doing.

- You know, it is, in my experience, a unique comic to come across.

- Okay, that's nice.

- You know, what comes through in a number of different ways is, one, you're not really overt in saying what's happening.

You're sort of alluding to it.

As the reader, we sort of have to see some of the more horrible stuff that you aren't saying, specifically, so, again, I mean, I guess this is part of the artistic process is part of that recovery.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

- The other thing that I notice is your work is very grounded in classic humor style comics, like, you have a couple of pages in the book that are homages to Archie comics.

When you're coming up with this idea, I mean, comics are a weird way to kind of address this sort of trauma.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is all, like, everything you said is just, like, bing-bing-bing, so on point, and I think I wanna start, I wanna address what you said about how I'm not being particularly overt with telling the story of some of this trauma, and so I think that, hopefully, this will answer kind of all of this, but, so I have found that comics have been able to function as, like, the perfect vehicle for me to revisit childhood trauma, specifically, revisiting childhood trauma.

I feel like it's, like, magic, in a way.

It provides this, like, framework for me to look back in time and the way that I construct my stories by pulling comics from the public domain and, like, working super-referentially allows me to kind of bring in, like, layers of meaning and layers of interpretation 'cause memory is very squishy, and memory changes, and memory isn't entirely reliable.

I find that comics, like, give me space, like, the specifically, like, the gutters give me space to remember things and to, like, not say things and allow for readers to project their own experience in it, so, like, in a lot of ways, like, the reason that I choose to tell this story through comics rather than, like, other areas of fine art that I, you know, am involved with is this particular form is so effective at revisiting memories and communicating that to a reader, I think, in, like, such a potent way, like, when I read a comic, a memoir comic, specifically, it just can, like, more than music, more than film, more than visual art of any type, I find that comics can get to, like, my humanity in, like, such a powerful way.

I mean, Scott McCloud, like, wrote a whole book on it, and I think, like, mostly I just lift from him to try and explain what it is I'm trying to say, and I also think, kind of sort of separately, that I'm not interested in showing what happened to me.

I'm just not.

I don't wanna draw that.

I don't wanna look at it.

I don't want my readers to look at it, and there are a lot of survivor creators who that's a very empowering part of their practice or at least is a part of the practice that they choose to do, and that is a choice that I just am not making because I'm a very visual person, and, like, there are images that exist in my mind and will for the rest of my life that I can't get out, and, like, putting it on the page, it just isn't gonna help me, and I really, that was a decision I made that I didn't think it was gonna help anyone else, and it's also really interesting, looking back at my work, I've, like, asked my wife, Laura, like, "Is it clear?

Like, like, "Is it clear?"

Like, "Can you?

"Do you think that I'm communicating "what, like, the stuff with my dad?"

Like, "Is this clear to you, as a reader?"

And she's like, "Oh, honey, "like, oh, yeah, it's, like, super-obvious," and so I think that that also is, like, such a survivor experience to not even really know 'cause I've had the question.

I have years I just don't remember, you know?

So it's like, "Did he do it?

Did he not?"

Like, you know, I don't know, and so I make the work that just, like, explores that exact question and is a reflection of that internal struggle of trying to remember, yeah.

- And you mentioned your wife and how she's that person that you go to.

It's a fine line between having somebody who's very supportive and somebody who can be honest with you and provide some real guidance, so when you have that support system, how does that help you, as a creator, maybe lean into something or lean away from something?

- Mostly, she's able to keep me safe because I'm, like, really good at self-flagellation, and, you know, I'll just, like, wanna watch movies about, you know, childhood sexual abuse and, like, documentaries about it and, like, just kind of binge on this, like, dark content that just, like, is extremely triggering for me, and, like, an example of that safety is, like, my wife, like, stepping in and being like, "Sweetheart," like, "really should not watch that," and I'm like, "Why?

"I'm tough.

"I can handle it," and she's, you know, always right 100% of the time when I listen to her, and the same goes with my practice.

She can tell, like, of all the people she knows, like, when I'm in a triggered state, like, what's going on with me, mental health-wise, like, if I've been having flashbacks, if I've been having a series of, like, horrific nightmares, which I do.

I suffer from really, really, really bad nightmares, and she'll see that I'm, like, squirreling away in another room, like, working on my comics, you know, and she can step in and talk to me and be, like, checking in on me, like, "Are you okay?

"Is this okay for you to do right now?"

Like, "Do you feel safe engaging with this material?"

And, you know, most the time, I'm just not safe engaging with it.

Actually, I don't think I'm ever safe engaging with it, and sometimes, I just have to push through it, you know?

I have to be like, "No," like, "this is triggering me a lot, "but I have to get this story out," like, I feel some compulsion to tell this story, so I just gotta do what I gotta do, but I always have a spouse who, like, sees me very clearly and is able to provide, like, just incredible emotional and spiritual support to me, like, when I'm, you know, in the process of making this work.

- Let's talk about the actual art itself because we mentioned it.

It's very referential of classic Archie comics, some more the maybe Little Lulu type stuff.

- Yeah, big time.

- Are you a digital artist?

Are you pen and ink?

How do you work?

- For this, for my comics, entirely digital.

Yeah, entirely digital.

There isn't, like, an essence of it that exists in the real world, which, except for, like, the printed paper that it's on, which is, there's a whole backstory behind that as to how I arrived at this point because I'm, like, a classically trained artist, like, I, like, an undergrad, like, I learned oil painting, you know, like, I'm a tactile kind of creator, so it is kind of interesting that my comics work is entirely digital, but I found it to be really helpful for how I'm telling these stories about memories because up until the book is published, like, I have rewritten and redrawn these stories sometimes up to, like, a dozen times because, like, as I grow in my recovery, you know, as, like, my sobriety deepens and I start to come to terms with what happened to me, I start to remember things differently.

I start to see these figures in my life a little differently.

Like, when I started this, the process of making this work, I was very protective over my biological family.

Like, I was, like, kind of hinting at what was happening, but felt very protective over them, and so it's been so cool to have the ability, with this digital work, to just go into these Illustrator files and just retell the story, like, retelling the story from where I am right now, as a person who believes myself, if that makes sense, who sees them more clearly, and so it's just, like, fascinating to see, like, over the years, like, how this work has changed, how, like, the characters that I'm drawing, like, are looking different, the clarity of the story, of the same memory that I'm trying to express, gets clearer and clearer and clearer over time, and so that's been, like, a wonderful aspect of being a digital cartoonist that I just never had, you know, as a pen-and-ink artist, which is how I started making comics was traditional nib and ink, which I have great appreciation for, you know?

It's like the classic way, but it did, I wasn't able, it's, like, when a thing was done, it was done, and so this has been a really interesting aspect of my practice is it being digital art.

- It's interesting.

A lot of artists like the fact that there is a finality to a deadline.

They talk about how it keeps them from being precious and working and reworking, but what you're doing is different, in my estimation.

You're- - Just kinda throwing it out.

- Well, you're doing something where you're looking at it and something's triggering another memory, and I don't mean a negative trigger, but something's clicking another, connecting another series of dots for you, and you're able to go back and expand the story and get it so that it's right for you.

It's a little different than somebody who's got a deadline and they just, you know, can't hit it because they want to keep making that one panel extra special.

- Right, right, right.

Yeah, it's actually, like, I don't feel precious about the work at all.

It's really interesting.

Actually, that brings me, I might as well explain why I'm a digital artist, speaking of not being precious with my work to a fault.

When I graduated from college, I moved into my bio-dad's house, and I hauled all of my artwork from college, like, from Massachusetts to Texas.

It's a very long trek, and when I got to my bio-dad's house, I threw it all away.

I regret it so much.

I just trashed it.

Like, beautiful work, sculptures, just so much stuff 'cause I didn't believe that, like, I was entitled to the space.

Just the physical space my work took up, I thought, was more than I deserved.

Like, I was in a really bad place, so I just trashed it all, even though it was just, like, sitting in this garage with, like, rotting trash.

Like, it's not like it was, like, I don't know, taking up important space, but that's just how little I valued myself and my work, and that is why I started becoming a digital artist was I was like, "This is," first of all, it's free.

Once I downloaded the programs initially, you know, I was just, like, able to churn this stuff out.

It had zero footprint, and I felt a little bit freer to start experimenting visually, and then that just kind of like turned into what it is now, and it became a really functional tool for me, and so that, I think, definitely has followed through in my comics practice with just redraw, like, digitally just redrawing, like, those files are redrawn over.

They're gone, like, unless they're somewhere on a backup hard drive, I don't know, but I'm not intentionally keeping the various iterations of this work, and it's hours and hours and hours of labor that I'm just, you know, selecting all those vectors, hitting Delete, you know, so that's kind of like my neurotic reworking is just, like, wiping, you know, trying to wipe the slate clear, in a sense, while keeping the sort of bones of the story, which, you know, are helpful for me and then just kind of redoing the whole thing.

- You mentioned coming back from college.

You are, I guess, was recently announced that you have, you're an academic fellow?

- Yes, I'm a Hodder, it's called a Hodder Fellow at Princeton.

It's really cool.

- Can you tell us a little bit about it?

Because when we hear Princeton University, we're thinking, "Oh, well, this is special."

- It's very special.

I know.

It's actually way more special than I knew.

I applied for it.

It's just an excellent opportunity, and, like, being a cartoonist, you just don't make any money, okay?

Like, you know.

It's just I can't live off of the advance I got from my book, you know?

It's just the way it is in the industry, and so I was looking.

I had a mentor suggest that, like, while I'm writing this book, what she recommends is applying for fellowships and grants and, like, getting institutional support during, like, the creation of the writing of the book, and I was like, "Genius.

"Never would've thought of that," you know?

And so I started applying for these fellowships, and, you know, got rejected by, like, a bunch of prestigious ones, and then, bam, the Hodder worked out.

Like, what?

Didn't see it coming.

They, as far as I could tell from my digging, they've never given it to just, like, a sort of, like, traditional cartoonist, and I think it's also kind of tough to get your first go-around and, you know, I didn't know much about it.

A friend had told me, you know, I'm really showing my cards here, but a friend told me about it, and I was like, "This looks awesome."

It's like, really?

You know, there's a lot of support, I'll say, with this grant, I mean, with the fellowship, and so I didn't know how fantastic it was until I went to the welcome reception this past October, I think, on campus, and I was like, "Excuse me?"

Like, at Princeton, like, Hodder Fellows are, like, in Burlington, North Carolina, where I live, no one gives a crap about Hodder Fellows, but in Princeton, boy, like, we are really treated quite nicely, and I've just never felt that before, and it was really cool and very new, and so I think that experience is what kind of like helped me take this as serious as it is, but it's a pretty amazing opportunity, and I'm actually, they're, like, giving me the resources to hold the launch event for my book at Princeton in the Lewis Center for the Arts building, which is really beautiful, so in February of '25, that's where I'm gonna do my book launch and have, like, a whole exhibition and cool stuff, but yeah, it's wild.

It's really cool.

- It must be, I mean, it's obviously a huge relief to not have to worry about certain things, like, "Oh, I've gotta go work," you know, "nine to five "and then come back."

- I do work nine to five.

- Well, at least gives you a little bit of a break.

You don't have to work, you know, five to nine.

- That's true.

That's true.

That's actually the major thing that it has provided for me 'cause I was working, I mean, I've been working full-time at Fantagraphics, but also five to 10 p.m. as a freelancer, as a designer 'cause girls gotta make a living, you know?

And so this fellowship actually has really opened up my time after work to, like, actually focus on my craft, which is a totally new thing that I really like.

Like, being an artist, even if it's just after five, is like, it's pretty great.

I really enjoy the freedom.

I'm still doing some freelance stuff, but a lot less, like, a lot, lot less, which is a real privilege.

I'm very grateful for it.

- You mentioned Fantagraphics, so what are you doing at Fantagraphics?

- I'm the creative director, which is a fancy way of saying I just design books, so I get to design, like, really cool books.

I love what I do.

I love comics.

I'm a comics nerd, just like all I wanna think about and read and talk about are comics, so that's what I get to do at my job and visualize, like, put together this, like, beautiful package to represent someone's story out in the world, and it's just, like, quite an honor and an amazing experience to, like, get to connect with other creators in my field, which otherwise, being a cartoonist is very isolating.

It's just totally lonely, especially in Burlington, North Carolina, so this job, like, gives me a real chance, like, an opening into the community that I never would've had otherwise 'cause, again, I'm not particularly active on social media, so I haven't really, like, built a community with, you know, like, my contemporaries, so that's been really awesome, and I've designed some really beautiful books, like, just some real stunners, like, over the course of the past...

I've been there for a little over two years now, so yeah, I design the covers.

I design the interiors, and some books, like, are very complicated in terms of, like, what the interiors are gonna need design-wise, and others are a little bit more straightforward, but yeah, so that's sort of what it looks like.

- And this is something because of this, I guess, digital world we live in, you can be in North Carolina and Fantagraphics could be headquartered anyplace else in the- - Yeah.

Yeah.

- in the country.

- It's really weird.

It's actually post-pandemic that they... From what I know is when they started opening up hiring remote employees, and so I think that, like, well, I actually applied for a job at Fantagraphics and did not get hired a few years ago because I was based in North Carolina is what I was told, and they just weren't ready for that, you know, change in culture, which is understandable if you've, like, been around for, like, 40 years and you've never done remote work, you know, it's a big shift, and so then, post-pandemic, the job opened up for art director at the time, and they reached out to me because they knew they'd already acquired my book, and they knew I'd applied for a job as a graphic designer years earlier, and so, like, they were like, "Hey, do you wanna come on [indistinct]" "Yes, sir," you know, and I'd actually just lost my relationship with my biological father a week before that, and so there was, like, sort of this, the floor beneath me had opened up, and I felt like I was just, like, falling into nothingness, and then, like, this sort of community opened up and caught me, which is not how most people think about work, but, you know, has been the case for me.

I really love the people I work with, and yeah, it's been great being able to, like, stay where my mortgage is super-affordable and all my coworkers are in Seattle, so it's a bit of a different life.

- Does the time difference give you any trouble?

Or because everyone's sort of doing their own thing, it doesn't really matter?

- It doesn't really matter.

Yeah, I actually, like, really love the morning hours when everyone's still asleep.

Like, I just get to, like, get all my work done, like, in kind of quiet before, like, there are any meetings on the books or, like, anyone's e-mailing me, so I've got, like, that three hours 'cause everyone on the West Coast starts at noon my time 'cause it's 9 a.m. their time, so it's actually, like, really awesome, and then, like, I just, like, am able to kind of, like, have the rest of my day filled with meetings and, like, a little bit more, a little busier, which actually, I say filled with meetings, but we don't have very many meetings.

Yeah, it's not a particularly, like, buttoned-up corporate environment.

It's pretty relaxed but people are allowed to, you know, kind of design their own schedules.

Like, we've got some people on staff who come in at night, you know, like, get physically into the office, like, go into night, and, like, that's, you know, they do it all after hours, which is pretty cool that... Everyone's fine with that as long as you meet your deadlines, you know?

- I see we have probably just about a minute or so left, and we had mentioned that you had mentioned that "Precious Rubbish" is going to be launching in 2025?

- 2025.

That's right.

- Okay, and if the folks at home wanted to find out more about you and "Precious Rubbish" and your work, where can they find you on the web?

- So you could follow me on Instagram.

It's private just because my family's scary, but I'll approve you if you're not related to me @precious.rubbish, and then, if you're interested in purchasing any of my comics, you can check out my comics at preciousrubbish.com, and if you're interested in my fine art practice, kaylaework.com.

That's where I am.

- Well, Kayla, thank you so much for coming all the way to Pembroke.

- Thank you.

- Thanks, everyone at home, for watching "Comic Culture."

We will see you again soon.

[authoritative music] ♪ [authoritative music continues] ♪ [authoritative music continues] - [Announcer] "Comic Culture" is a production of the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

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