[compelling music] ♪ [compelling music continues] ♪ [compelling music continues] ♪ [compelling music continues] ♪ [compelling music continues] - Hello and welcome to "Comic Culture."

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is artist Keith Carter.

Keith, welcome back to "Comic Culture."

- Thanks, you know, it's been six years since I was last here.

As a matter of fact, I recently watched our episode on the PBS website, and, yes, I was struck of how well it went.

'cause, you know, sometimes you see yourself on camera, it's like, oh my gosh, you get kind of embarrassed.

But, no, you look very well.

- Well, thank you.

[Keith laughs] You look like you haven't aged a day.

The last time we talked, we talked about your work as a card illustrator, collector cards.

And we talked about a number of really interesting topics including how the eyes are really the most important part if you're doing likeness - Oh, wow, yeah.

- And the like.

Recently we met at a convention in Durham this past November, and you told me that you started working on a sequential book.

So what is that book?

- Okay, so this camera right here is the right camera.

So what I'm showing, this book was called "The Four-Point Case "For Mere Christianity."

It was I started working with this apologist.

Do you know what apologist is?

- I've read about it, but I'm thinking that the folks at home might not know.

- Okay, so basically there are scholars and theologians, and they go out and they are trying to let people know that there's evidence that supports the scriptures that support the Bible.

Like for instance, in this day and age, a lot of people think that the scriptures are either fairytales or moral tales or mythology.

So what these people are doing, they're going out there using evidence, they're using scientific evidence, they're using theological evidence and historical documentation to show the validity of the Bible.

But again, some of these guys are so brilliant, you can't really understand their brilliance unless they're only gonna speak to the academic folks of the world.

So when I met Dr. Frank Turek, I really like what he did because he would say these fancy words, but then he would break it down so that Joe Schmo can understand it like me.

And so when I was at USA Today, I used to take information and break it down so the common man, the common woman could understand it, you know, with graphics and illustrations and animations.

And so I offered this type of thing with what they were doing 'cause I really like, you know, the things that they were presenting.

And so that's how I started on this trek that led to animations and comics and graphic novels and so forth.

- I came across some videos coincidentally on YouTube where there are a lot of folks who are scholars who can point to contemporary history, and not to sound like we're theologians here, but it's contemporary histories from around the time that Jesus lived.

It is interesting to see that there are what most historians believe are factual accounts of that era.

And so it seems as if the writer that you are working with or whose work inspired you is doing that sort of thing.

So, I see that you have one of his books here.

So that is?

- So he's written about five different books, but his most popular book is called, "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist," meaning there's so much information out there that actually it takes more faith to believe that there's nothing out there.

And so he goes, you know, he breaks it down to the four basic points, which is, again, what the comic's about is the four basic questions is if the answer to these four questions is yes, then God exists, Christ exists.

The four basic question is, does truth exist, does God exist, is the New Testament historically reliable, and are miracles possible?

And if the answer to all four of those questions is yes, then game over.

Of all the faiths, this is the faith.

If Christ rose from the dead, then, you know, there is no more, you know, wondering or speculating.

And again, just they're basing it not on speculation, but information.

- And again, this is not a show that discusses theology.

It's interesting.

Like I say, it's interesting because you can find historians who have gone and done sort of this non-biased research to find these contemporary histories.

So when I see these presentations on YouTube, you have different types.

You do have the ones that are very overtly religious, and you have ones that are very scholarly and some that are a little snarky.

And somewhere in between, you can find the flavor that you enjoy.

Now, the style that you're doing is interesting because you talk about working at USA Today and doing, I guess, they sort of pioneered the infographic.

And so, you know, how are you applying that sort of understanding of how to present basic information to people in a clear visual style to a sequential page, which is a series of illustrations designed to lead you through a narrative or a story, or, in this case, information?

- So Dr. Turek, when he goes out and he speaks at different universities and colleges and campuses, not campuses, but the churches and so forth, and so when he gets to his Q and As, and he's trying to make his point, but he only has so much time because there's a line behind him, so he says, "Hey, if I give you a book, will you read it?"

And of course, you know, students, you know, people know here, they don't wanna read another 500 page tome 'cause everybody got enough to read.

And so I saw enough of that that I said, "You know what if we took your writings "and boiled it down to like CliffsNotes, "a CliffsNotes version," and I said, "Since you're speaking to students, "why don't we just make it something interesting visually "like a graphic or a comic book?"

So if someone, you know, seems like they're very, "Oh, I don't wanna read this," man, it's only gonna take you 10 minutes.

You know, so we designed it to be a quick read and give the basic points, and hopefully if they were interested for more information, then there's a way to, you know, order the book or go to the website and so forth.

So I saw that it was an opportunity to take comics, which, again, I'm a big fan and you're a big fan, and so taking this medium that's been used for entertainment, but use it to convey information.

- It's gotta be difficult to take something that is essentially...

I don't know if it's necessarily historical in writing.

I don't know if it is a scholarly approach to everything, but to take something that is not entertainment and convert it into something that is done sequentially, that's gotta be a challenge as an artist, especially someone who, you know, as we said, you were doing - Trading cards.

- Trading cards, and that's all about capturing the likeness of, let's say, you know, Harrison Ford.

- Right, right.

- And now you're trying to do something on a page that is conveying information sequentially.

So how do you make that shift as an artist and go from the one image to, you know, look spectacular to a page that conveys that message?

- You and I are both being comic fans and, again, my inspiration with the guys from the 70s, you know, the Marvel bullpen.

And I almost feel like the way I drew our main character, I feel like it could have been Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne, and, you know, everything's missing.

You know, everything's there except, you know, the superhero aspect, because that was my influence growing up.

But, yes, just I designed it kind of like the old Marvel books with the four stories, you know, like when they had the horror tales like tales to thrill, whatever, and there would be four separate stories that would tell, you know, a different thing, and then that would be the make of the book.

So I would break down the book into those four chapter headings like, does truth exist, that would be one chapter.

Does God exist, that would be another chapter.

And kind of use the old horror comics as a way to format it and then go from page to page.

Now I wanna say this about people who do comics for a living, man, they're working hard for their money because working on one image is one thing, but when you have to do a sequence of, you know, not just illustration, illustration, panel to panel, page to page, man, that's a lot of work.

So I can really appreciate the people who do this for a living because I only had a chance to really work on this about one day a week because I know the responsibilities going on.

It really made me appreciate people that do this for their job because it's something called work.

[both laugh] I mean, it looks fun.

We look at it and say, "Man, this is fantastic."

And we can say, this is good, bad in a heartbeat, but someone worked hard.

To do a terrible book, comics takes a lot of work and discipline.

- It's amazing when you read about somebody like Jack Kirby who's doing up to four books a month, and before he started to simplify in the mid 70s after he had been doing it for nearly 30 years, you know, he was doing more, sometimes nine panels on a page, plus he's plotting, you know, a basic idea that Stan Lee had given him to...

So the discipline to sit in that chair for so many hours a day to get those books out, as you say, it is work.

So, your day job is keeping you from this comic.

So how do you find, I guess, the professional discipline to say, you know what, Monday night, Tuesday night, I'm gonna spend a few hours working on this to get this book done?

- I work with Cross Examined as a contractor.

And so I take a lot of Dr. Turek's ideas and his debates or things I read in his book, and I create animations out of 'em.

So I'll take a script, I make a script out of some of his materials, send it to him, he'll edit it, and when we get it to exactly the way he wants it, then I'll go back and I'll create some animations, two or three animations.

And same thing with the comic, I just try to pitch a visual things that, you know, so there's some people maybe look over this and gloss over it trying to make it something appealing.

So they'll want to watch it, or even if they don't believe or have any interest in the subject matter, at least, like, wow, that's a cool book, or, wow, that's a cool animation.

So I'm applying all these things.

And if you look at the images in the book and the animation, you can see my comic influence all in it.

You can tell, you know, where my bread was buttered and who was my influence back then.

As a matter of fact, if you look at some of the panels real closely, I paid homage to so many classic, you know, illustrators.

For instance, there's an explosion of like when they say everything became from a starting point, the big bang, there's these planets and rocks, and there's one particular rock, if you look at it, it's all Kirby-esque.

So, I have splashes of all my favorite comic creators all throughout the book just because, you know, these are the people who inspired me and still do.

- What comes across is you're having fun with this work.

So hen it is fun, it's easy to sit down, and it's easy to find the time.

But when it becomes work, you know, how do you sort of shut off the rest of the world and just, you know, hunker down at the drawing board, or I don't know if you're doing, you know, traditional pen and ink or if you're doing it all digital, but how do you sort of get into that mindset of like, you know, I gotta do this, I gotta do that, but this book has to get done?

- I do all my sketching by hand in my little sketchbook, and then I scan in and pretty much I do everything on the computer, everything pretty much.

Now, if you work in the commercial world, it's done on a computer.

Even if you do it by hand, they've gotta scan the product in hand because then they're doing the lettering, the coloring.

So everything ends up being that way.

And so I ended up working in computers a long time ago, and I just, you know, almost got out of the habit of doing it by hand.

But to get to your question, it's no walk in the park to go to your... You know, it's not like I'm looking, and I can't wait to get that drawing on board because, you know, it's one of those things.

It really is work.

And sometimes I'll agonize over a panel or agonize why...

Here's another thing doing sequential art, which I didn't realize, you know, just doing my illustration, I started, as I was going through the pages, I said, "Wait a minute, this guy has a different hairstyle "now by page five than the hair I started with."

I thought, oh man, I gotta go get back and be conscious of the hair.

Then I started thinking, does this look like the same guy?

And that gave me another appreciation of people keeping that consistent look all throughout the book.

So these were little things I didn't realize, you know, I was thinking of something that, was it Rob Liefeld, and he would put all these little things, you know?

It's like how to remember all that?

So I just kept the dude simple in a suit because I can remember suit and tie, but, yeah, it's a lot of stuff to keep track of to make sure it's consistent from page to page.

And so that was a new discipline I didn't even realize until I started doing this book.

- You mentioned hairstyles.

I spoke once to the famous letter of Tom Orzechowski, who for decades worked on the "X-Men."

And he said when he would letter a page, Chris Claremont, known for his big verbose scripts, he would have to find a spot to put all the lettering, but he made sure that no matter what he did, he never ever covered somebody's hair because if they were not in costumes, the hairstyle would be the only way you'd be able to know- - Was this the letter you're talking about?

- Mhm.

- Okay.

- And he would say that was the only way you would know that it was, you know, Scott Summers and not, you know, Kurt Wagner if he was using the modifier.

- Sure, yeah, yeah.

I know what you're saying.

[Terence laughs] - So it's interesting that you're talking about the hairstyle.

So, you know, as you work on something, do you find that you kind of get into a rhythm, you kinda learn what the page and the character is going to look like, and is it tough for you not to resist, or is it tough for you to resist to go back and redo everything?

And what point do you say, you know what, I've gotta just stop?

- Okay so, yes, that does happen.

And I feel like once I got to the end of the book, I really was now ready to start drawing a book because it's like I almost had to do one book to realize the lessons that now I think I could do it better.

And I probably would get looser.

And here's another thing I didn't mean to do, but I found that when you start turning and doing three quarter turns or for bird's eye view, man, that's really hard.

So I ended up finding most of my people very stiff.

I was like, I need to actually have these people move a little bit, you know, because I was finding it difficult trying to get these three quarter looks to make the guy look like that person or from a worm's eye view or something.

So that was another challenge that I didn't realize that, you know, these comic book folks that do comics for a living, you know, they do it like it's a piece of cake, and maybe it's not a piece of cake.

They give us the illusion that it's a piece of cake, you know?

But my hope is when people see this, it looks like I'm, you know, someone who enjoyed what they're doing, but that again is illusion 'cause a lot of times I didn't enjoy it.

[laughs] - It speaks to the professionalism.

I know that in television there have been projects that I've worked on that have been not exactly my favorite thing, but, you know, you gotta pay the bills, keep the lights on, buy food.

And even though it wasn't a project that I was 100% in love with, it would be a project that I would make sure that when the client looked at it, they would say, "This is the work of a professional who respected the fact "that they are doing work for me on my behalf."

So when you are in that frame of mind where you're getting a little bit burned out, you know, how do you sort of take that moment and say either, "I'm a professional, "and I know I can do this," or do you maybe say, "You know, I'm gonna take "a 10 minute break, I'm gonna go outside, "feed the birds, and kind of-" - That's a good point.

Okay, so I consider this part of my mission work because it is a mission, you know, and, you know, I am also a Christian man, so having this opportunity, you know, I feel very, very grateful and very blessed, but there are mission workers that are out there in third world countries, you know, that they're living in tough conditions.

Also, they're out there, and their lives are at stake.

I'm sitting in a cushy studio watching episodes of "90210" with a little shawl over my legs.

My wife's making me lunch.

So I really have to raise the bar 'cause realize if this is my mission work, man, I got a cushy mission job.

So I need to give 'em my best.

And the other thing is because Dr. Turek, all he really cares about is the theology.

So he doesn't care about the art style.

He doesn't care if I make, you know, the color blue, I make 'em green.

All he cares is theologies, right?

So I have so much creative freedom so I can, you know, pitch things like this.

You know, he never would've done something like this, but I pitched the idea.

He said, "Send me a script.

"Send me some pages "or send me a page to see what it looks like."

He said, "Let's go for it."

I really enjoy the creative freedom.

So I try not to ever take that advantage 'cause realize working as a commercial artist as long as I have, I mean, when you work with a client, some clients are very challenging and difficult, you know, and then there's some clients you got, you know, it's just, you know, they wanna run that show.

So he just leaves me alone to do these projects.

So that's a blessing, man.

So that gives me motivation to...

I always wanna wow him.

When they send the work to them, whether they be animations, where it's graphics, where it's, you know, the comic book.

when he looks at this, I want him to go, man, this is some good stuff, you know?

So, you know, keep using me.

- It's interesting, I did have a chance to look over some of the pages when you first sent them over.

And I was struck by the aesthetic that you chose.

It's sort of like I wanna say 1950s, early 60s classic advertising style.

- Gosh, that's it.

That's very astute, man, yeah.

- So was that something that you were thinking about?

- Not at all.

[Terence laughs] What I was thinking of was I was thinking about those dudes like the Neil Adams and the Steve Ditko, the look of the books from the 60s, because that's the stuff that inspires me.

Now I know, you know, there's a lot more contemporary looks and style, but when I look at comics, I think of those old books like we were talking about earlier.

And so to me that has a certain aesthetic that gives an ambiance.

Now if when I do that again, when I try something, maybe next time I might try something different, but as a whole, you know, it just has a certain sensibility from that period and, again, like "Mad Men."

- Well, it's true.

There's just something about the haircut and the color palette that you're using.

So when you're choosing a particular color palette, there's a lot of sort of muted blues and grays.

So when you're thinking about color, it is different than when you're thinking about your line work.

So how do you sort of, you know, go between the person who is directing the action and the person who is sort of the cinematographer of the action?

- Reason I did what I did here was that the brand colors for Cross Examined is black and white in that certain red color.

So every product that I do for them, whether it be the comic or the animations, that's my palette.

So there's grays in between.

And sometimes when you print that red with those grays, they could come across as a grayish blue, but really it's a black and white and that color.

And I can't tell you what that certain red is, so it makes the choice a lot easier.

So that's my focus is all black and white and one color.

But the other thing it adds to it, I realized by using one color, you can direct the eye to a certain place or you can pick up a piece of information that if it's the only thing that's the color on the page, your eye goes right to that page, or right to that piece of info.

So I realized you can use color to really direct.

So I found I like that approach.

So everything that I do now, matter of fact, I've done some record albums, and I just use black and white, one color.

It's just become my choice of just, you know... And it looks sophisticated too.

Even if I don't know what I'm doing, people think, gosh, this is something.

He must be doing something very sophisticated 'cause I don't quite get it, but maybe, I'm not supposed to.

- It's interesting because when you think about a lot of classic album covers, they do have that black and white and that one color and does sort of draw the eye to a certain spot.

And again, I guess it's coming through years of experience working in a single image where you are cognizant of the fact that you need to do something with one image.

It's not something where I can have one panel that's a little bit of a waste because the next panel's a spectacular one.

The single image can sometimes be instructive to help you guide where the eye's gonna go like you're saying, - Yep, yep.

- And you know, on a page where a lot of times, I had this experience recently, I won't say the book, I was reading a recent superhero comic, and it got up to the scene where the villain is defeated, and the page layout was so bland, the coloring was so distracting that I didn't know what I was supposed to be looking at.

And the payoff was so weak as a result.

And I think in many ways, we are at a golden age of comic book artists.

I think they are more skilled, more skilled and more school than they've ever been before.

Their mastery of anatomy, fashion, body gestures, fantastic stuff, but there's some sort of disconnect, for my, you know, three cents, when you look at the story compared to let's say John Buscema doing the Silver Surfer, and he's doing just, you know, a black and white image 'cause the surfer's on his board in space and you've got a couple of purple planets here or there.

- Now, man, you really hit on something interesting 'cause I don't really follow contemporary books that much, but the ones I see, you're right, all the art's really good now.

But sometimes I feel like we've got oversaturation of color.

I feel like we've got so many details, and it's like I don't know where to look.

I know how you're supposed to look, but, again, that's why I think if you simplify one color or it doesn't have to be one color.

It really does draw the eye.

I mean, I saw this beautiful illustration that Barry Smith did, fantastic detail, but the color was every... And I was like, "I don't know where I'm supposed to look."

And I think that's what's happened today with a lot of comics that I've seen is since we've got the use now of computer colors and we can add these molding shapes and stuff and all of a sudden make this make the curves in this, and I feel like something's being lost 'cause it's too much.

I think we need to back up a little bit.

- I mean, I agree.

I think that there's something about the hand art that is a a lot more expressive.

And it's not to say there aren't brilliant artists working digitally.

I mean, you're working digitally right now, and you can find that happy medium, but I think everybody feels like we need to put everything on the page all at once all the time, and there's never a quiet moment.

- Okay, are you a fan of Arthur Adams?

- Love Arthur Adams.

- Okay, so I just recently got a book that he did.

I don't know if it's the Marvel art or Arthur Adams or just in general his work.

And he puts tons of detail, but he also knows where to use big shapes so you have a resting spot.

And so you look at all this detail and there's a shape of this creature.

And then there's...

I mean, he knows how to really make a balance, and his stuff is inspiring.

I mean, it's incredible the time he puts in it, but yet it feels balanced.

So he's a...

But he's also an old...

I mean, I hate to say he's old school because he is not from the 70s, but I think he came like, you know, 80s, mid 80s, or whatever, but, you know, he had sensibilities from that period back in the classic days.

So John Romita's the same way.

John Romita Jr. you know, he's still putting out stuff, but he feels like a part of, you know, the old Marvel guys, you know?

- It's fascinating because you mentioned Arthur Adams, and his work is incredibly... You look at the texture on "Godzilla" or "The Thing" or the backgrounds, but you're right, he knows that that becomes at some point that is part of the shadows and that you're gonna focus on where the light falls.

And it's interesting to see that because, again, like you say, Barry Windsor-Smith does a Conan piece, let's say, or someone recolors a Conan omnibus and just it loses all that power 'cause they're not using the knockout where it's just we're gonna do the background in a purple and let the figures in the foreground pop.

So, when you're doing this with one color and you're using that to guide the eye, are you consciously thinking that this color now right here is gonna do this when you're in the layout stage, or is it something that organically comes because you're sitting there looking at it saying, "You know what?"

- You know what's interesting now that you bring that, I'm starting to realize, I don't know if I should even call myself an illustrator.

I really think what I am is more of a designer because I realize whether you're illustrating or you're using type or you're putting a set together, good design is good design.

And so when you see illustrations that don't do it, don't really work, it's because it's bad design.

When you see these things, it's bad, cluttered, and oversaturated, it's cause it's bad design.

Really, the issue is about the way you design your pieces.

And so I think of myself now as I'm placing type with an image, with a visual, with a texture, I'm thinking of how this composition comes together.

And so the design is what really, you know, draws the eye.

So I think that's a lot of the problems.

If this doesn't work, it's because they're not a good designer.

But you can learn that.

You can learn that, you know, just gotta be conscious of it.

- I was gonna ask, I mean, because a lot of times when we're looking at something, we're always kind of looking at the story, not necessarily the way the page is put together, not necessarily... A lot of people talk about the Z flow where the page has to go this way, that way, and this way.

And I wonder, I mean, are we getting too scholarly and losing, you know, the band on stage who's improvising versus the band on stage that's playing exactly what's on the record?

- Wow, you know, the only way I can really think about that is just the bottom line.

Either it's a good looking page or it isn't.

You know, I mean, we could talk about it all day, the scholarly notes or whatever, or the training, but that page is got it or it doesn't have it.

And when you see it, you know it.

When you see it, it's like, forget about it, that's a beautiful book.

I'm trying to think, I just recently saw something, it was a one... Oh, it was Mike Allred, if you're familiar with this work.

He did a biography of David Bowie.

Have you seen that?

- I've seen some images on the internet.

- Oh my gosh.

- Haven't read it yet.

- It's beautifully done.

I mean, of course, he's always had a great style.

You can feel his retroness, you know, but he just nailed that book.

He nailed the look and just his layouts on that.

And just, yeah, he's a good designer and a good illustrator, and he has a great line, a really great line.

So his book I would highly recommend as a attractive book.

- So I see that we probably have about a minute left before we have to wrap up our- - Are you serious?

It's 30 minutes already?

- Time flies when you're having fun, Keith.

- Oh my gosh.

- [Terence] So if the folks at home wanted to find out more about, and I'm sorry I forgot the name of the book already... - "The Four-Point Case for Mere Christianity."

- [Terence] Where can we find that on the web?

- You can find that on crossexamined.org.

You can find that also in impactapologetics.com.

And of course, we have a digital version on Amazon, and this book is already... Its first printing is already sold out, so it's doing pretty well.

So we're hoping that if it continues to sell, we may do a second book.

- All right, and if the folks wanted to find out more about your art, is there a spot on social media?

- Yes, I have a website.

It's called keithcarter9, just the number nine .myportfolio.com.

- Well, Keith, thank you so much for coming out here today and being with me on "Comic Culture."

- Hey, thanks, man, it's been great.

- And thanks, everyone at home, for watching "Comic Culture."

We will see you again soon.

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