BEING PAID TO READ ABOUT MYSELF IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHEN I GOT OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE, I STARTED READING SOME STUFF PEOPLE SAID IT'S VERY SHOCKING.

>> Bonnie: THIS WEEK, KELLYANNE CONWAY, SENIOR COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK, WE ARE SPEAKING WITH THE FIRST WOMAN TO RUN A SUCCESSFUL WINNING PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN AND HE WENT ON TO BE SENIOR COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, KELLYANNE CONWAY, WAS ONE OF THE PREEMINENT POLLSTERS ON WHAT WOMEN THINK AND WANT.

SHE ALSO HAS BEEN A REGULAR PANELIST TO THE "TO THE CONTRARY" FOR, AS I RECALL, FROM DECADE, THE MID 1990'S UNTIL YOU SIGNED ON WITH THE CRUISE PACK.

>> Kellyanne Conway: PRETTY MUCH, THAT'S RIGHT.

I AM HAPPY TO BE A REGULAR PANELIST ON TO THE CONTRARY.

AND CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR 31ST YEAR, BONNIE.

IT'S TRULY REMARKABLE >> Bonnie: IT IS SOMETHING ELSE!

I'LL TELL YOU THAT.

YOU HAVE ALWAYS MADE WOMEN IN TERMS OF POLICIES YOUR FRONT AND CENTER, YOUR POLLING COMPANY MADE YOU -- MADE YOUR NAME, MADE YOUR FORTUNE OR WHATEVER.

POLLING MAINLY FOR WOMEN'S MAGAZINES, WOMEN'S PRODUCTS, ETC., ETC.

WHAT'S THE BIGGEST THING YOU'VE DONE FOR WOMEN?

>> Kellyanne Conway: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I HOPE THAT MY JOB IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND IS A PUBLIC SERVANT HELPED MANY WOMEN.

SO I WORKED IN THE ADMINISTRATION THAT, ESPECIALLY PRE-COVID, WAS ABLE TO REBUILD AN ECONOMY THAT WORKED FOR MANY AMERICANS.

A RECORD LOW UNEMPLOYMENT AMONG WOMEN, RECORD LABOR FORCE PARTICIPATION BY WOMEN.

AND I BELIEVE THAT IT WAS AN ECONOMY THAT WORKED FOR THREE DIFFERENT GROUPS OF WOMEN: THE JOB CREATORS, THE JOBSEEKERS, AND THE JOB HOLDERS.

AND THAT LAST GROUP, BONNIE, IS BILLY THE ONE THAT I THINK MOST POLITICIANS, RIGHT, LEFT, AND CENTER, DON'T PAY ENOUGH ATTENTION TO.

THEY ARE ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT THE JOB CREATORS AND BUILDING A BUSINESS, AND I THINK THAT'S WONDERFUL.

YOU AND I HAVE DONE EXACTLY THAT.

BUT THAT'S A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF AMERICAN WOMEN.

THEN YOU HAVE FORTUNATELY LESS THAN 10 PERCENT OF 5 PERCENT OF WOMEN SEEKING, YOU KNOW, LOOKING FOR JOBS, ALSO ARE UNEMPLOYED.

BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICAN HOUSEHOLDS, MANY OF WHICH THE INCREASING NUMBER WHICH ARE BEING LED BY WOMEN, ARE THE JOB HOLDERS.

AND THEY'RE SAYING TO THEMSELVES, WHEN DID THE JOB NO LONGER BECOME ENOUGH?

SO I THINK THE DEREGULATION, THE ENERGY INDEPENDENCE, THE ECONOMIC STIMULATION, THE TAX CUT AND JOBS ACT, AND FRANKLY ALSO, I THINK -- D I KNOW I WORKED IN A WHITE HOUSE THAT WHETHER PEOPLE WISH TO BELIEVE IT OR NOT, HERE'S A FACT IT WAS A GREAT PLACE FOR WOMEN, WORKING WOMEN AND WORKING MOTHERS.

I RIGHT IN MY NEW BOOK, HERE'S THE DEAL, MY MEMORY THAT I LOOKED UP IN THE MEETING ONE MORNING AT 8:20 AM, COLLIDED TUESDAY, AND I NOTICED IN THAT MEETING OF ABOUT 11 OR 12 PRINCIPALS THAT FIVE OF US, ALL OF WHOM HAVE THE HIGHEST RANK IN THE WHITE HOUSE, ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT, WERE ALL WORKING MOMS: SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, MERCEDES SCHLAPP, IVANKA TRUMP, BROOKE ROLLINS, AND ME.

BETWEEN US WE HAVE 19 CHILDREN, 12 DAUGHTERS AND SEVEN SONS.

AT THAT TIME, THEY WERE AGES TWO TO 16.

SURE, YOU'VE HAD MANY WOMEN OVER THE YEARS ON YOUR SHOW, MANY SPONSORS, YOU SAY.

WE ARE FAMILY-FRIENDLY IN OUR OPERATION.

YES, SIR.

WE JUST LOOK AT OUR HANDBOOK PAGES 568 TO 574 AND WE'LL SHOW HOW FAMILY FRIENDLY WE ARE.

BUT IN THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE, IT TRULY WAS.

I NEVER ASK FOR SPECIAL PRIVILEGES AS A WORKING MOM, BUT I FELT VERY PROTECTED, VERY SUPPORTED.

AND I FELT VERY EMPOWERED AS A WORKING MOM.

>> Bonnie: AND YOU TALK AND THE BOOK A LOT ABOUT HOW HE REALLY DIDN'T TREAT YOU ANY DIFFERENTLY THAN HE TREATED THE OTHER -- THE MALE STAFFERS.

DID THAT SURPRISE YOU AT ALL, GIVEN HIS REPUTATION, GIVEN THE HOLLYWOOD ACCESS TAPE, ETC., ETC.> Kellyanne Conway: IT DIDN'T SURPRISE ME, BUT I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY IT SURPRISES OTHERS, PARTICULARLY IF THEY JUST BUY INTO CHERRY PICKED CARICATURES OR THIS COMMENT OR THAT COMMENT.

I GUESS IT DIDN'T SURPRISE ME, BONNIE, THAT DONALD TRUMP HAD EMPOWERED AND EQUIPPED ME TO SUCCEED FIRST AS CAMPAIGN MANAGER.

AND YES, WE WERE SUCCESSFUL.

I AM THE FIRST SUCCESSFUL WOMAN TO MANAGE A PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, BUT HE'S ACTUALLY THE FIRST REPUBLICAN TO EVER EVEN PUT A WOMAN IN THAT POSITION.

DEMOCRATS HAVE DONE IT THREE TIMES.

MICHAEL DUKAKIS, AL GORE AND JOHN KERRY.

BUT DONALD TRUMP IS THE FIRST REPUBLICAN TO DO THAT, WHICH IS PRETTY REMARKABLE.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT HIS HISTORY, IF YOU LOOK AT HOW HE HAS CONDUCTED HIS BUSINESS, HE HAS ROUTINELY AND TRADITIONALLY ELEVATED AND EMPOWERED WOMEN TO POSITIONS OF POWER IN THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION, ON THE TRUMP HIT TV SHOW THE APPRENTICE, AND THEN AGAIN IN HIS CAMPAIGN AND CERTAINLY IN HIS WHITE HOUSE AND HIS CABINET.

SOMEBODY ONCE SAID THAT DONALD TRUMP, HE ENJOYS THE COMPANY, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN.

HE LISTENS CAREFULLY TO THE BRIEFINGS BEING PUT FORTH BY MALE AND FEMALE STAFFERS.

BUT HE CONFIDES IN THE WOMEN AND THAT ACTUALLY HAS SOME RESONANCE AND SOME TRUTH TO A GREAT TRUTH TO IT.

I DO ALSO SAY IN THE BOOK THAT SPEAKING OF WOMEN AROUND DONALD TRUMP, THAT HE HE CONFIDE IN US.

HE CONSULTED US.

I CERTAINLY WAS SENIOR COUNSEL TO THE PRESIDENT IN EVERY SENSE OF THE TERM, BUT HE RESERVED HIS FEAR FOR ONE PERSON.

AND THAT WAS MELANIA TRUMP.

SHE'S THE ORIGINAL COUNSELOR TO THE PRESIDENT.

SHE IS THE PERSON THAT HE WOULD CONSULT WITH ROUTINELY ON A NUMBER OF MATTERS.

AND SHE'S GOT A GREAT, SAVVY SENSE FOR THE WAY THINGS ARE BEING COVERED OR BEING PERCEIVED.

>> Bonnie: GIVE ME A HAND, BECAUSE I KIND OF DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

>> Kellyanne Conway: WELL, THAT IS HIS WIFE.

WHY IN THE WORLD WAS BILL CLINTON LISTENING TO HILLARY CLINTON ABOUT HEALTHCARE?

>> Bonnie: BUT SHE WAS A PRODUCT OF EL.

WHATEVER YOU WANT TO SAY ABOUT HILLARY'S STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES AS A POLITICAL ADVISOR, SHE HAD A GREAT EDUCATION AND SHE -- SHE WAS A PARTNER IN A LAW FIRM.

>> Kellyanne Conway: YEAH, THE ROSE LAW FIRM.

AND LOOK IT UP, EVERYONE.

YOU WILL HAVE A REAL FEEL DAY TO SEE WHO WENT TO JAIL OVER THAT.

>> Bonnie: FOR GETTING BACK TO THE QUESTION.

>> Kellyanne Conway: [INDISCERNIBLE] AS FIRST LADY, SHE HAD BE BEST AND I THINK WHEN FIRST LADY MICHELLE OBAMA SAID, LET'S MOVE AND TOLD US WHAT TO DO, JUMPING JACKS AND SHE PLANTED THE GARDEN AND EVERYBODY APPLAUDED THAT AND SAID, TERRIFIC.

I DON'T THINK THAT CHILD OBESITY RATES WENT DOWN VERY MUCH, BUT I NEVER DENIGRATED IT.

THAT WAS HER PLATFORM, MAIN PIECE OF HER PLATFORM.

AND THIS FIRST LADY, MELANIA TRUMP, HAD BE BEST WHERE SHE TACKLED THE OPIOID CRISIS AND CYBER BULLYING AND OTHER JUST SORT OF HEALTHY LIVING FOR FOR CHILDREN AND THEN TEENS AND FRANKLY, BONNIE, THE PRESIDENT FIRST LADY WORKED ON THE PUBLIC POLICY ISSUE OF OPIOIDS AND THE DRUG CRISIS TOGETHER.

AND I WAS A STAFFER WHO SUPPORTED THAT AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS.

AND THE DRUG OVERDOSE CAME DOWN.

THOSE ARE JUST THE FACTS.

THEY WENT DOWN FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 30 YEARS.

NOT TO BELABOR THE POINT, BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP DID MANY GREAT THINGS FOR ALL AMERICANS, EVEN THOSE WHO SAY THEY DON'T LIKE HIM AND DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM EITHER TIME.

HAVE TO BE PRESIDENT FOR ALL AMERICANS.

YOU KNOW, FRANKLY, I READ STORIES RECENTLY IN CNN AND NBC AND POLITICO, ALL OF WHICH SAID, ALL OF WHICH SAY THERE'S GREAT PALACE, INTRIGUE, AND HIGH-FIVING IN THIS WHITE HOUSE, 13 HIGH PROFILE DEPARTURES FROM THE VICE PRESIDENT'S OFFICE.

KAMALA HARRIS IS THE FIRST WOMAN, FIRST WOMAN OF COLOR, FIRST VICE PRESIDENT OF COLOR, QUOTE, MADE HISTORY.

TERRIFIC.

WHY ARE PEOPLE LEAVING?

WHY HAVE 21 BLACK STAFFERS LEFT THIS WHITE HOUSE?

AND WHY DO THEY FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE THAT THEY'RE NOT THEY'RE NOT SUPPORTED, THEY CAN'T GET THEIR JOB DONE OR DON'T HAVE PEOPLE LISTEN TO THEM AND TAKE THEIR ADVICE.

SO I'M VERY HAPPY WHERE I WAS LISTENED TO, EVEN WHEN THE PRESIDENT AND I DISAGREED ON A POLICY ISSUE.

I KNOW HE HEARD ME AND EVEN IF HE WENT IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION, I WAS FINE WITH THAT BECAUSE I'M THERE TO GIVE THE ADVICE TO TO TO LAY IT OUT TO PROPERLY TO HELP PROPERLY BRIEF THE PRESIDENT AND THE VICE PRESIDENT AND THEN THEIR NAMES WERE ON THE BALLOT.

SO THEY ARE THE ONES WHO SHOULD ABSOLUTELY MAKE THE DECISIONS.

>> Bonnie: YOU RAISE THE QUESTION OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS DEPARTING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

YOU TALKED IN THE BOOK ABOUT WORKING WITH BANNON AND SEVERAL OTHER HIGH-LEVEL STAFFERS WHO WERE INCREDIBLE -- ALL MEN -- INCREDIBLE BACK STAFFERS GOING BEHIND YOUR BACK, DENIGRATING YOU TO THE PRESIDENT, AND YOU BASICALLY CALLED IT, FOR LACK OF A BETTER CLICHC A DEN OF THIEVES.

HOW DID -- AND I HEARD ONE TIME, SOMEBODY TOLD ME YOU CAME OUT FROM AN INTERVIEW DEFENDING THE PRESIDENT SAID, OH, GOD, I NEED A SHOWER.

>> Kellyanne Conway: THAT'S NOT TRUE.

DIET DENIED.

>> Bonnie: I HEARD IT.

YOU DENY -- >> Kellyanne Conway: YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS BY SAYING KILLIAN IS SO LOYAL TO THE PRESIDENT AND THEN -- >> Bonnie: BUT LET ME SAY THIS .

I WAS LEADING TO THIS QUESTION, WHICH WAS HOW TO DO FIELDWORK WITH THE CREW LIKE THAT.

>> Kellyanne Conway: THAT'S A DIFFERENT QUESTION.

>> Bonnie: THEY USE CURSE WORDS ALL THE TIME.

AND MY IN MY 20 PLUS YEARS OF OF OF HAVING YOU ON THE SHOW, I NEVER HEARD YOU CURSE.

YOU'RE AN ELOQUENT SPEAKER.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO STOOP TO THAT.

THE GUYS WERE F THIS, F THAT.

HOW DID THAT MAKE YOU FEEL?

>> Kellyanne Conway: SET FOR THE COUNTRY, BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT ASKED US TO WORK TOGETHER AS A TEAM AND WE DID DURING THE CAMPAIGN.

BUT SOMETHING CHANGED WHEN HE WON AND I THINK A CHANGE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT EXPECTING HIM TO WIN AND THEY ALL OF A SUDDEN HAD TO TAKE CREDIT FOR THAT MAY TAKE CREDIT FOR THE WOMAN, WHICH IS SILLY SINCE I HAVE LIVING, BREATHING VIDEO CATALOG OF WHAT I THOUGHT EVERYTHING WOULD AND WHAT OUR STRATEGY WAS.

THEY DON'T.

THEY WERE PROBABLY STILL ASLEEP WHEN I WAS ON TV TALKING EVERY MORNING ABOUT WHY WE ARE GOING BACK TO WISCONSIN, WHY WE ARE PULLING OUT OF NEVADA A LITTLE BIT AND FOCUSING THEIR RESOURCES IN PENNSYLVANIA AND MICHIGAN, FOR EXAMPLE.

I WAS QUITE TRANSPARENT AND STRATEGIC ABOUT IT ON A DAILY BASIS.

BUT I ALSO -- LOOK, I ALSO SAY IN THE BOOK THAT I WAS RAISED BY VERY STRONG WOMEN.

A HOUSE FULL OF WOMEN.

FOUR ITALIAN CATHOLIC WOMEN, ADULT WOMEN RAISING ME IN LITTLE SOUTH JERSEY, BONNIE.

SO I WAS ACCUSTOMED TO HANDLING JEALOUS LITTLE BOYS.

AND I TRIED TO DO THAT, BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT IN THE BIDEN WHITE HOUSE.

I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE.

I THERE IS PLENTY TO DO.

THIS COUNTRY HAS SO MANY NEEDS THAT THERE'S PLENTY FOR EVERYBODY TO DO WITHOUT GETTING IN EACH OTHER'S WAY OR COMPETING FOR SPACE IN PLACE AND THERE TOO, AFTER CREDIT FOR HIM BECAUSE HE DID NOT ALLOW THOSE GUYS TO DISMISS AND DENIGRATE ME AND CASTIGATE ME THE WAY HE WANTED TO AND THAT STARTED WHEN I FIRST GOT THERE.

I WATCH THEM COME IN, WATCH THEM GO OUT.

>> Bonnie: YOU SURE DID.

YOU GET A LOT OF CREDIT FOR LASTING AS LONG AS YOU DID IN AN ADMINISTRATION WHERE YOU YOU EARLIER TALKED ABOUT DEPARTURES FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

BUT NO ADMINISTRATION HAS EVER BEEN SUCH A REVOLVING DOOR AS WAS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

DID IT EVER FEEL LIKE CHAOS TO YOU IN THERE?

>> Kellyanne Conway: WE USED TO SEE, HEAR THAT WORD A LOT.

AND I THINK CHAOS AND CRISIS IS NOW WHAT I SEE EVERYWHERE IN THIS AMERICA.

INFANTS CAN'T GET THE THEY CAN'T GET FORMULA TO EAT.

THEY WE ARE PAYING WAY TOO MUCH OF THE GAS PUMP IN THE GROCERY STORE.

THERE'S OBVIOUSLY CHAOS IN UKRAINE SINCE PUTIN INVADED AND AFTER DONALD TRUMP LEFT OFFICE AND BIDEN GOT IN THERE, THERE'S CHAOS WITH A NUCLEAR CAPABLE IRAN SALIVATING, LOOKING FOR OUR BEST FRIEND IN THE REGION, ISRAEL.

THERE'S THERE'S CHAOS AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

I MEAN, THERE'S CHAOS AND CRISIS EVERYWHERE WE TURN AND VERY LITTLE RESPONSE.

I THINK ONE OF THE SCARIEST WORDS I READ EVERY FRIDAY ARE, QUOTE, THE PRESIDENT AND THE VICE PRESIDENT HAVE NOTHING OTHER WEEKEND SCHEDULES.

HOW CAN THAT BE?

WHY IS THAT?

AND SO WHAT I THINK WAS UNFORTUNATE IS THAT WHILE WE WERE TRYING TO WORK WHERE WE'RE TRYING TO DELIVER ON THOSE PROMISES AND SUSS OUT WHAT COULD BE DONE WHEN WITH THE CONGRESS, WHEN THE REPUBLICANS WERE IN CHARGE THE FIRST TWO YEARS, BONNIE, AND THEN THE DEMOCRATS WERE IN CHARGE THE NEXT TWO YEARS TRYING TO WORK WITH GOVERNORS, TRYING TO MEET THE NEEDS OF A GLOBAL PANDEMIC THAT NO ONE SAW COMING.

AND ON AND ON.

ALL THAT, WHILE WE'RE DOING IT WITH THE AMIDST THE INVESTIGATIONS AND THE SUBPOENAS AND RUSSIA COLLUSION FOR THREE YEARS, WE HAD TO HEAR ABOUT THAT.

TWO AND A HALF TO THREE YEARS.

WE HAD TO HEAR ABOUT SOMETHING NOBODY EVER FOUND TO HAVE CHANGED AN ELECTION WHERE THE APOLOGIES?

HOW DID THE TAXPAYERS GET $45 MILLION BACK.HOW DID THEY GET TWO AND A HALF TO THREE YEARS BACK?

AND YET WE KEPT PUSHING THAT BOULDER UP THE HILL EVERY SINGLE DAY.

BUT I THINK THE WORK IS JUST TOO IMPORTANT TO GIVE IN TO THE CARICATURES OR THE HATE OR WHAT STRANGERS THINK OF YOU.

>> Bonnie: YOU SAID THE WORK IS TOO IMPORTANT.

IS THAT WHAT GOT YOU THROUGH AS THE LONGEST SERVING OR ONE OF THE FEW LONGEST SERVING HIGH LEVEL OFFICIALS IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?

>> Kellyanne Conway: YES, BECAUSE IT CERTAINLY GAVE UP A TON OF PRIMACY AND TIME AND MONEY, MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO WORK IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

YOU DON'T DO THESE JOBS FOR THE MONEY.

YOU DON'T DO THESE JOBS TO RUN FOR THE GOLDEN LINE OF LIFE-CHANGING MONEY WHICH I HAD STARTED LONG AND HARD, BONNIE, AFTER THE 2016 ELECTION.

LOTS OF CONTRACTS, LOTS OF OFFERS REALLY INTO THE EIGHT FIGURES AT THAT POINT, BUT I'M GLAD IT DID THE JOB BECAUSE I LEARNED THAT THE AGE OF 50 HOW MEANINGFUL AND CONSEQUENTIAL PUBLIC SERVICE CAN BE, AND I TELL YOUNG PEOPLE ROUTINELY WHO ASKED ME, IF YOU CAN FIT IN PUBLIC SERVICE OR NONPROFIT WORK, AT SOME POINT IN YOUR CAREER, DO IT.

DO IT.

DOES NOT HAVE TO BE FOREVER, BUT JUST DO IT BECAUSE THE WORK IS ITS OWN REWARD.

YES, THIS IS AN AMAZING COUNTRY FILLED WITH BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE WHO HAVE FABULOUS IDEAS ABOUT HOW TO COURSE CORRECT, ABOUT HOW TO MAKE POLICIES BETTER AND STRONGER AND WORK FOR MORE AMERICANS.

AND I THINK THE GIFT OF MY CAREER, BONNIE, WHICH YOU KNOW BECAUSE OF BEEN ON YOUR SHOW FOR 25 YEARS OR MORE, I THINK THE GIFT OF MY POLITICAL -- MY PROFESSIONAL CAREER, BODY, IS TO GO OUT AND LITERALLY TALK TO THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS AND FOCUS GROUPS, LOOKING AT THE DATA IN THE POLLING NIGHT AFTER NIGHT, DAY AFTER DAY, HOW'S IT PLAYING IN PEORIA?

WHAT DO THEY LOVE AND LOVE IT.

I'M THE ONE WHO GOT ON THE PLANE TO GO GO FIGURE IT OUT AND ASK THEM.

THERE'S A CENTRAL WISDOM IN PEOPLE AND I REALLY DO WISH OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS OF ALL POLITICAL ALL POLITICAL STRIPES WOULD LISTEN MORE TO THE PEOPLE.

I MEAN, I THINK THEY'RE TALKING AT THEM AND TALKING FOR THEM MORE THAN THEY'RE LISTENING TO THEM.

AND THAT REALLY HELPED IN 2016 TO WIN THAT ELECTION AGAINST THE QUEEN BE HERSELF.

HILLARY CLINTON WITH A MAJORITY OF FEMALE VOTERS AGAINST EVERY ODD AND EVERY PRESS CLIP IN EVERY POLL.

AND IT CERTAINLY HELPED TO KEEP ME FOCUSED ON MY WORK.

I LIKE TO SAY I WASN'T BEING PAID TO READ ABOUT MYSELF IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

WHEN I GOT OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE, I STARTED READING SOME STUFF PEOPLE SAID IT'S VERY SHOCKING.

BUT, YOU KNOW, AS I TELL YOU, I TELL PEOPLE -- >> Bonnie: IN A TARP ALL RIGHT?

IT'S HURTFUL.

>> Kellyanne Conway: SURE, I GUESS.

YES, IT'S HURTFUL.

>> Bonnie: YOU YOU TALKED ABOUT REACTION TO YOU.

DID YOU GET A LOT OF NEGATIVE FEEDBACK WHEN YOU WERE OUT THERE EXPLAINING AWAY THE HOLLYWOOD ACCESS TAPE WHERE HE SAYS WOMEN LIKE TO BE GRABBED BY THEIR PRIVATE PARTS, BEGINNING WITH A "P" AND SAYS ALL THESE PRETTY TERRIBLE THINGS ABOUT YOU THAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT HE DOESN'T THINK MUCH OF WOMEN.

AND YOU OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE.

I REMEMBER SEEING YOU ON EVERY SHOW EVERY DAY FOR MONTHS AT A TIME.

THAT WAS IN OCTOBER SURPRISE WHEN IT WAS LEAKED TO THE MEDIA.

BUT HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?

>> Kellyanne Conway: WELL, I SAID HOW I FELT AND I WILL REPEAT IT HERE: I SAID THAT I SAID, LIKE MELANIA TRUMP SAID, MIKE PENCE SAID AND DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF SAID WHEN HE APOLOGIZED, HE SAID, I DON'T RECOGNIZE THOSE WORDS, BUT OBVIOUSLY I SAID THEM AND THEY'RE THEY'RE HORRIBLE.

AND I DON'T MEAN THEM.

I DON'T FEEL THAT WAY ABOUT WOMEN.

SO HE APOLOGIZED RIGHT AWAY, WHICH IS SAYING SOMETHING IN TODAY'S POLITICAL CULTURE.

AND I SAID THE SAME THING .

I WRITE IN THE BOOK, BONNIE, FIRST TIME I'VE EVER TALKED ABOUT IT, A PRIVATE CONVERSATION.

MR. TRUMP AND I HAD IN THE CORNER OF THE ELEVATOR BANK COMING OFF THE 24TH FLOOR REALLY ON -- SO ACCESS HOLLYWOOD WAS LATE ON FRIDAY, OCTOBER SEVEN.

SO THIS IS SATURDAY, OCTOBER 8TH, GOING INTO SUNDAY, OCTOBER 9TH.

AND WE'RE GOING TO TURN RIGHT BACK AROUND AND GO TO THE SECOND DEBATE IN SAINT LOUIS.

AND THE PRESIDENT -- MR. TRUMP HAD SEEN ALL THESE HEADLINES AND ALL THESE TIE RUNS ON THE TV SAYING THEY'RE GOING TO FORCE HIM OFF THE BALLOT, THEY'RE GOING TO EMBARRASS HIM AND EXPEL HIM OUT OF THE RACE.

THEY'RE GOING TO REPLACE HIM.

AND HE ASKED ME, CAN THEY DO IT?

AND I SAID, NO, THEY CAN'T DO THAT.

I SAID, IT'S TOO LATE TO PRINT NEW BALLOTS.

AND YOU KNOW, NOBODY -- YOU ARE NOT A QUITTER.

I KNOW HE'S NOT A QUITTER.

HIS WIFE HAD PUT OUT A STATEMENT THAT DAY.

I HELPED WRITE VICE PRESIDENT PUT OUT A MR.

GOVERNOR PENCE, PUT OUT A STATEMENT THAT DAY THAT HE HE AND KAREN PENCE SENT ME AND I HANDED TO DONALD DRUM POINT SO IT WAS A VERY HEADY DAY.

AND I SAID, YOU KNOW, YOU SAID IT ON THE TAPE BUT BILL CLINTON DID IT.

AND HIS WIFE STOOD BY HIM.

HILLARY STOOD BY HIM FOR DECADES.

AND IF SOMEHOW WE FALL APART., WE'RE GOING TO HAND THE WHOLE DAMN THING TO HILLARY CLINTON.

WE'RE NOT DOING THAT.

AND FORTUNATELY FOR ME, I HAD MY PERSON AT THAT TIME, GEORGE CONWAY, MY HUSBAND OF MANY, MANY YEARS, WHO WAS INSISTENT THAT I STAY IN THAT RACE, WHO WAS INSISTENT I TAKE MY SHOT AND BE THAT CAMPAIGN MANAGER, DIDN'T JUST URGE ME, BUT ALMOST INSISTED THAT I TAKE MY SHOT.

AS THEY SAY IN HAMILTON, DON'T THROW AWAY YOUR SHOT.

AND I DID.

AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE SAY, BONNIE, WITHOUT KELLYANNE CONWAY IN 2016.

I DON'T THINK DONALD TRUMP WOULD HAVE GOTTEN ELECTED PRESIDENT.

THAT'S DEBATABLE -- >> Bonnie: HOW IS THAT DEBATABLE?

YOU WON THAT POLISOFFICE FOR HIM.

YOU ARE POLLING YOUR BEING HIS REPRESENTATIVE WHEN HE WAS UNDER FIRE ABOUT WOMEN'S ISSUES.

YOU DID ALL THAT.

>> Kellyanne Conway: WELL, I APPRECIATE THAT.

I MEAN, I WAS A STAFFER.

I APPRECIATE THAT, BONNIE.

I DO.

AND I APPRECIATE YOU SAYING IT WHEN I'M SURE THAT HE DIDN'T GET YOUR VOTE.

SO I VERY MUCH APPRECIATE YOU SAYING THAT WOMAN TO WOMAN.

>> Bonnie: YOU DON'T KNOW THAT.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHO I VOTED FOR.

>> Kellyanne Conway: THAT'S TRUE, THAT'S TRUE.

THAT'S TRUE.

OR IF YOU DO AND THAT'S YOUR RIGHT.

BUT I GUESS BACK TO THIS.

I MEAN, PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW THAT GEORGE AND I HAVE A LOT IN COMMON, THE LEAST OF WHICH IS WE BOTH, ACCEPTED VERY BIG JOBS IN THE DONALD TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, HE JUST CHANGED HIS MIND.

IT'S AMERICA.

YOU CAN DO THAT.

BUT I CERTAINLY NEVER WOULD HAVE MOVED AN ENTIRE FAMILY TO WASHINGTON, DC.

AND TAKEN A JOB AT THAT LEVEL HAD WE NOT DONE IT AS A FAMILY OR AS A COUPLE COMMITTED AND ROWING IN THE SAME DIRECTION.

BUT I ALSO I THINK DONALD TRUMP DID SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT IN THAT FINAL DEBATE OCTOBER 19TH, 2016, THAT'S MAYBE BACK IN THE NEWS NOW, BONNIE, SOMETHING WE'VE TALKED ABOUT ON TO THE CONTRARY SO MANY TIMES OVER THE DECADES.

HE TURNED TO HILLARY CLINTON IN RESPONSE TO A PRETTY PREDICTABLE QUESTION BY CHRIS WALLACE THE MODERATOR ABOUT ABORTION AND HILLARY DID HER USUAL WOMEN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE THING THINKING I'VE GOT THIS ALL TO MYSELF, YAY.

AND MR. TRUMP TURNED TO HER AND SAID YOU KNOW YOU'RE THE EXTREMIST ON ABORTION.

YOU WOULD RIP THAT BABY OUT OF ITS MOTHER'S WOMB AN HOUR BEFORE IT'S BORN.

AND PEOPLE WENT, OH, AND I THOUGHT, WELL, I NEVER HEARD ALL THESE PRO-LIFE STALWARTS TALK THAT WAY.

SO UNAFRAID TO CALL OUT WHAT THEY SEE AS EXTREMISM.

SO NOW PRO-CHOICE DOESN'T INCLUDE PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION.

A LATE TERM ABORTION DOES INCLUDE SEX SELECTION.

ABORTION.

DOESN'T INCLUDE ABORTION LONG AFTER NONPARTISAN DOCTORS SAY A BABY CAN FEEL PAIN.

SO I THINK WHERE RELIGION AND MORALITY DID NOT HELP EVERYBODY DECIDE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, PRO-LIFE OR PRO-CHOICE SIGNS IN MEDICINE HAVE STEPPED IN.

AND IT WAS DONALD TRUMP, IMPROBABLY, BONNIE, WHO FOR THIS MANHATTAN NOW BILLIONAIRE FOR WHOM MOST OF HIS ADULT LIFE HAD BEEN PRO-CHOICE, BECAME THE MOST PRO-LIFE PRESIDENT IN US HISTORY.

AND I THINK THAT, TOO, IS JUST THE POWER OF TRANSFORMATIVE THINKING.

WE ALL CHANGE OUR MINDS ON BIG THINGS .

>> Bonnie: LET ME ASK YOU THAT ABOUT THE TERMS OF THE MIDTERMS THAT ARE COMING UP QUICKLY AND EVEN THE NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

IF THE SUPREME COURT, AS HAS, YOU KNOW, GOES ANYWHERE NEAR IN DECIDING THE MISSISSIPPI CASE WHERE THE LEAKED DRAFT OPINION WENT.

IS THAT ENOUGH TO MOTIVATE WOMEN TO THE POLLS AND MEN WHO ARE PRO CHOICE TO THE POLLS?YOU AND I HAVE HAD THIS DISCUSSION AND I ASK, YOU WILL SMILE I HOPE WHEN I SAY THIS.

WE TALKED ABOUT THIS.

THE '70S AND '80S, ABORTION, PRO-CHOICE CANDIDATES MOTIVATED WOMEN, AND THAT WAS LIKE THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE GO VOTE.

BUT IN THE '90S, Os, IT DID NOT ACCEPT WORK.

IT REALLY DIDN'T WORK ANYMORE.

WOMEN TOOK IT FOR GRANTED OR MAYBE THEY DIDN'T WANT, YOU KNOW, CHOICE ANYMORE.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT.

BUT DO YOU THINK IT WILL WORK BECAUSE OF THE SUPREME COURT AND WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE BY THE, YOU KNOW, THE END OF THE THE END OF THE TERM AND WHAT AND THAT IT WILL SO ENRAGE WOMEN IN PARTICULAR THAT IT WILL MOTIVATE THEM TO GO TO THE POLLS IN A RACE THAT THEY MAY NOT OTHERWISE HAVE WANTED TO?

>> Kellyanne Conway: FIRST I WOULD SAY THAT THANKFULLY WOMEN IN BALANCE ARE NEITHER A SINGLE ISSUE THINKERS NOR A SINGLE ISSUE VOTERS.

BUT I THINK WE'VE ALREADY SEEN THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IN PART, WHICH IS YOU ALREADY SEE AN UPTICK IN THE NUMBER OF AMERICANS SAYING ABORTION IS IMPORTANT TO THEM.

YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT BEFORE THE ROE LEAK.

AND IN FACT, IN THE DOBBS CASE, IN FACT, BONNIE, YOU GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE 2020 -- >> Bonnie: WHAT ABOUT WOMEN?

WOMEN MORE SO THAN MEN?

BECAUSE I KNOW YOU YOU ARE PULLING WOMEN.

>> Kellyanne Conway: PRO-CHOICE, MORE THAN PRO-LIFE.

YOU REMEMBER THERE ARE PRO-LIFE WOMEN, THERE ARE PRO-CHOICE MEN.

IT DOESN'T EASILY FALL ALONG GENDER.

AND PEOPLE SHOULD RECOGNIZE THAT.

BUT I DO THINK BOTH SIDES WILL BE VERY MOTIVATED TO GO TO THE POLLS.

REMEMBER, IF YOU'RE PRO-LIFE, YOU BELIEVE THAT A BABY'S BEING MURDERED.

SO YOU'RE VERY YOU'RE VERY ENGAGED.

YOU GO TO THE POLLS.

IF YOU'RE PRO-CHOICE, AND YOU THINK THAT ROE COULD BE OVERTURNED, YOU'RE VERY ENRAGED TO GO TO THE POLLS.

SO I THINK YOU'LL SEE THAT ON BOTH SIDES.

WHAT I DON'T SEE, WHICH IS PRETTY REMARKABLE, IS ANY KIND, OF COURSE, CORRECTION ON ALL THE OTHER ISSUES THAT AMERICANS SAY ARE VEXING AND PERPLEXING THEM, LIKE INFLATION AND IMMIGRATION, THE ECONOMY AND NATIONAL SECURITY, LIKE IT'S IT'S IT'S MIND BOGGLING TO ME THAT THEY DON'T SEE THAT.

BUT I WILL STICK WITH THIS ISSUE FOR A MOMENT.

WHAT I BELIEVE -- WHAT I BELIEVE HAS REALLY HELPED THE PRO-CHOICE MOVEMENT IS ROUGHLY ABOUT 26 PERCENT OF AMERICANS IN POLLS CAN CORRECTLY DESCRIBE, ACCURATELY DESCRIBE WHAT ROE VERSUS WADE PROVIDED.

WHAT DID THAT OPINION MEAN AND WHAT DID NOT MEAN?

AND I THINK MANY PEOPLE WHY NOT THINK I KNOW MANY PEOPLE ARE ASCRIBING THEIR OWN POINTS OF VIEW ON ABORTION, WHETHER IT IS ABORTION -- ANYONE, ANYTIME, ANYWHERE, ESSENTIALLY DEMOCRATIC PARTY POSITION, OR ABORTION WITH SOME LIMITS, REGULATIONS, OR RESTRICTIONS, OR NO ABORTION WHICH IS -- YOU KNOW, THAT COMBO IS WHERE A LOT OF AMERICANS ARE INCLUDING AMERICAN WOMEN.

>> Bonnie: THE SUPREME COURT MAJORITY UNLIKELY, ALTHOUGH NOT DEFINITELY.

THE OPINION IS AT THE EXTREME RIGHT.

NO PROTECTION ANYMOR.

>> Kellyanne Conway: THEY SAY ABOUT.

TURNING IT TO THE STATES.

I MEAN, WE'LL SEE.

EVEN PEOPLE LIKE GEORGE CONWAY SAY THERE'S NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO AN ABORTION.

IT'S PROBABLY A STATE MATTER.

MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE HE'S A FEDERALIST SOCIETY FOUNDER.

MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THAT IS A MATTER OF STATE LAW, THAT WE SHOULD NOT HAVE A FAIR TO ALL.

SO WE'LL SEE WHERE THEY COME DOWN ON THAT.

BUT IN TERMS OF MOTIVATING TO THE POLLS, YES, THAT IS A BIG MOTIVATOR.

AND I WOULD SAY I DID -- THIS IS IN MY BOOK.

HERE'S THE DEAL.

I HAVE A WHOLE CHAPTER CALLED LIFE OF THE PARTY.

IT TALKS ABOUT THE ARC OF PUBLIC OPINION ON ABORTION OVER THE YEARS.

AND THE ONE THING I NOTICED AND I STILL CAN'T BELIEVE.

SO I WANTED TO PUT IT IN THE BOOK QUICKLY, IN 2020, WHEN YOU HAD MODIFIED IT, WE STILL HAD THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION AND THEN THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL CONVENTION.

IN THAT ORDER, BONNIE, REPUBLICANS WERE FAR MORE LIKELY TO MENTION ABORTION IN LIFE THAN THE DEMOCRATS WERE.

SO TO YOUR POINT WHERE THIS TALKING ABOUT WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE ABORTION RIGHTS WAS A STAPLE, I WOULD SAY IT WAS THE MOST POPULAR THING TALKED ABOUT IN MANY OF THESE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTIONS OVER THE YEARS BY ANYBODY WHO WAS SPEAKING WAS ALMOST CONSPICUOUS BY ITS ABSENCE.

I THINK KAMALA HARRIS KIND OF MENTIONED IT A LITTLE BIT BUT YOU HAD MICHELLE OBAMA, BARACK OBAMA, JILL BIDEN, JOE BIDEN, NANCY PELOSI, HILLARY CLINTON, BILL CLINTON, VERY LITTLE.

THEY TALKED A LOT MORE ABOUT RACE THAN THEY DID ABORTION IN 2020.

IF YOU JUST LOOK AT THE QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS THE WASHINGTON POST PUT FORWARD AND IT'S VERY TELLING.

LAST THING I'LL SAY IS YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THAT IS NOT IT IS MORE -- IT'S BEEN LESS OF A MOTIVATOR AT THE POLLS.

THE ONE EXCEPTION TO THAT WAS 2012.

PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS RUNNING FOR REELECTION AND YOU HAD A COUPLE OF THESE REPUBLICAN SENATE CANDIDATES SPEAKING TERRIBLY -- I MEAN, I LIKE TO THINK IN ARTFULLY IS NOT WHAT THEY MEANT ALL THE WAY TOO TERRIBLY ABOUT THE ISSUE AND THAT COST I THINK THAT THAT ENGAGED MANY MORE DEMOCRATS TO COME OUT IN THE ISSUE AND I THINK IT COST A FEW SEATS.

>> Bonnie: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> Kellyanne Conway: THANK YOU, BONNIE.

>> Bonnie: THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

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