- [Narrator] Funding for this edition of One-On-One with Steve Adubato has been provided by Englewood Health.

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- This is One-On-One.

- I'm an equal American just like you are.

- The way we change presidents in this country is by voting.

- I'’m hopeful that this is the beginning to accountability.

- Life without dance is boring.

- I don't care how good you are or how good you think you are, there is always something to learn.

- I did do the finale, and guess where my trailer was?

A block away from my apartment, it couldn'’t have been better!

- People call me 'cause they feel nobody's paying attention.

-_ It'’s not all about memorizing and getting information, it'’s what you do with that information.

- (slowly) Start talking right now.

- That's a good question, high five.

(upbeat music) - Hi, I'm Steve Adubato.

Every once in a while, even though I'm coming to you from New Jersey we're joined by a guest that's pretty far away but has really important things to say, all the way from England, Ken Follett who is the author of an extraordinary book, it is called "Never."

Little bit of background, first of all welcome Ken.

- Thank you, pleasure to be here.

- Little bit, don't blush when I do this, Ken is the author of 36 books, 180 million copies sold, 80 countries, 40 languages, we're honored.

So as I'm reading about the description of "Never," it, something triggered for you when you were doing research on a previous book about World War I, and how it was a quote unquote tragic accident and the leaders, world leaders involved never wanted that war.

Put that in context for us Ken.

- Yeah that's exactly right.

I was studying the outbreak of the First World War, for a book called "Fall of Giants."

And what struck me was that that was, nobody wanted that war.

The presidents, and emperors, and prime ministers of the big European countries did not want a European war let alone a World War and yet each of them decisions step by step, small decisions which did not seem to them to be dangerous.

And there was a slow but inexorable escalation towards the most terrible war that the world had ever known.

And seeing that I thought "I wonder if that could happen again".

And that was the idea behind "Never."

- And we do not find out, I just told you before we got on the air I'm three quarters of the way through the book we do not find out until the end of the book, whether "Never" is not never.

- Well, you will, I'm not gonna give it away but- - Don't ruin it for me Ken.

- I'm certainly willing to say we get really, really close.

- Ken, I'm fascinated by this question particularly where we are right now, not just in the United States of America but around the world.

We're taping this program.

This is really important we make it clear, we always put the chyron that says the date, we're taping on the 7th of February seen later.

We do not know what's gonna happen around the world.

Why is never more important than ever?

- It seems to me that the world is a more dangerous place today than it has been at any time in my life.

I was born in 1949, which is when, roundabout what the time that the Soviets exploded their first nuclear device.

And so all my life I've lived with the threat of nuclear war.

But it seemed at some, at a point right about the 80s, we seemed to reach a kind of modus vivendi with the Soviet Union.

And we started reducing the number of nuclear weapons that both sides had.

It seemed that we could negotiate with the Kremlin, we knew what they wanted.

They didn't seem to wanna conquer the world anymore, and I think we had a false sense of security at that point.

It looked as if the Cold War was never gonna get hot.

But since then it's changed again.

And the main reason of course is the rise of China.

Very, a very aggressive, very powerful, very rich country, that is very proud and very resentful of the way it's been treated in the past, plus more and more countries have nuclear weapons now.

I think it, they used to be, I seem to remember in the 60s there were five.

But now there are 10 or 12 countries with nuclear weapons, and it's just gonna go on rising.

You know we've been trying very hard to prevent Iran from having nuclear weapons, we still don't know how that's gonna turn out.

So the world is a more dangerous place.

And thinking about that and thinking about what happened in July of 1914, I began to look at ways, which of course I hope will never happen.

But nevertheless look at ways in which it might happen and that I could tell a story about.

- Ken is this book "Never," is this based on real people, real-world leaders?

- Well, the world leaders in "Never" are fictional characters.

The president of the United States, the president of China, the supreme leader of North Korea and so on.

President of Chad in North Africa, these are all fictional people because of course if I had put real people first of all it's not fair on the real people, because as a novelist I go inside the heads of these people.

And so I can't do real people.

The other thing is it would've gone out of date, you know, before too long, you know, it would've been, there would be a different president of the United States and a different president of China and so on.

So it was not practical, but although the leaders are fictional people, all the details about for example how many nuclear weapons China has got, where are the missile bases in North Korea, all of those kinds of detail, how does the Chinese secret service operate, where is its headquarters, all those details I have gone to a great deal of trouble to make sure they're authentic.

And of course I had help, you know, in some ways I work like a journalist, a journalist doesn't know much, a journalist is just the person who asks the questions.

And I had a great deal of help from people who gave me interviews and who read the first draft of the book and offered me corrections, people who really know a lot about these things.

So I'm pretty sure that those details are right.

- Ken a couple other things about your writing.

I'm curious about this as other authors and I've struggled through every book I've written I've struggled with because I'm not a natural writer which is not very good, and just the process, it's not about me but the process of writing is fascinating to me.

The process of getting one's thoughts down on paper or whatever form you're using.

You've been writing for how many years first off?

- Well I guess 50, 51, I guess.

I got, I started my first job as a newspaper reporter in 1971 so that's 51 years yeah.

- Could you describe if that's possible your quote unquote process for writing A, and B has it evolved dramatically?

- Yes it has changed over the years, one of the first things I learned to do was to plan the story.

You know, when I wrote I wrote a number of unsuccessful books, and the first successful one was "Eye of the Needle" and it was also the first one for which I wrote a plan before I wrote, before I typed the letter, before I typed the words chapter one, 'cause it was typing then, it was on the typewriter then.

Before I did that I made a plan what would happen in each chapter of the book, who the characters were, and how they would meet and interact and that turned out to be the right way for me to work.

A lot of writers don't do that, and my friend Lee Child sits down and types chapter one and then he says now what this story be about?

And I, but I can't do that.

So my work really improved when I started to plan.

"Eye of the Needle" was also the first book that I've researched.

It's set in during the Second World War before I was born.

So I had to find out a great deal about the, every, the details of everyday life in Britain in the Second World War.

And that research added a richness of texture to the book that I had not achieved previously.

So in that way it's developed and my planning now it's gone even further now.

So for a long historical novel such as "The Pillars of the Earth" or "Fall of Giants" which I mentioned earlier, I would spend a year now on the planning and the research before I would write chapter one.

The whole process takes me three years because I do a first draft and a rewrite.

Three years yeah.

- Quick, one more last, one more question.

I'm often struck by this for real writers, extraordinary writers like yourself.

Your passion for writing, you said you were born in 1949 I believe, your passion for writing as strong as it's ever been?

- Oh yeah, yes it is.

You know, I get up in the morning and what I wanna do is write the next scene.

I've got some ideas in my head, I've got a plan, I've got some problems to solve and that's my impulse.

I'm not in the least tempted to do anything else in the morning.

Yes I enjoy it, enjoy is kind of too weak a word.

I'm passionate, you know, it's like saying, you know, I don't love my wife I adore my wife.

You know, she's a huge, a huge part of my life, and we've been together a long time.

So it's not just, seems like an understatement to say I love my wife and the same thing, it seems like an understatement to say I enjoy writing I'm passionately engaged with writing.

And I can't, I absolutely can't imagine doing anything else.

Sometimes people ask me that question you know, if you hadn't been a writer what would you have done?

I find it very difficult to answer.

- Well, if you wanna find out how Ken described the, what comes out of what Ken just described checkout "Never."

It is fabulous, three quarters of the way through, again, I, he did not spoil anything, but we come close and I'll read the rest and what's more important is that you have joined us from England and Ken I cannot thank you enough.

Wish, we wish you and your family all the best and continue to do important writing.

Thanks Ken.

- Thank you, it was a pleasure talking to you.

- Same here, I'm Steve Adubato and that's Ken we'll be right back.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

- You know, the last time she was with us we were in our Tisch WNET studio at Lincoln Center.

But we have her remotely, coming to us from CNN, she's Alisyn Camerota, anchor of CNN Newsroom with Victor Blackwell on every day, weekdays from two to four.

Good to see you, my friend.

- You too, Steve.

Always great to see you.

- We should let folks know that we're taping this in mid February, be seen later.

So let's just say there's lots of moving parts and we don't know how things are gonna play out.

Try this for me.

We'll get into some of the CNN stuff in just a little bit, but I don't wanna talk about this.

We're doing a series called Democracy at a Crossroads.

There's gonna be a graphic up on the screen that says that.

A, in terms of the media's role, as you see it, particularly at CNN in promoting a healthy, vibrant democracy as we are struggling to stay on track and some argue it's a futile effort.

Longwinded way of saying, how do you see the media's role right now?

- Well, Steve, if I have always drawn a distinction between the media and the press.

And so obviously, there's an onslaught of media.

Everybody can tune to everything from entertainment shows to programs that are masquerading as news shows but are not, or actually just opinion shows.

And then there's the press.

And look, as you know, the press' job is to hold powerful people accountable.

That's our job.

And to shine a light on corruption, malfeasance, people who are unheard, all of that stuff.

And so that's what we keep trying to do.

And I personally, in the press keep trying to sound the alarm about democracy because bad things are happening.

There are bad signs.

They're very unnerving what's happening in terms of all of the people who are running to oversee elections in state legislatures, county election boards, secretaries of state that believe the President Trump's election lies.

They propagate it.

They believe it.

You can't oversee a fair election.

If you are saying, I mean, saying out loud that you're not going to respect the will of the voters and that you might have your state legislature overturn the will the voters.

That's not democracy.

And so of course democracy is at a crossroads.

- So, Alisyn,, for those who say, whether it's about CNN or those of us in public broadcasting will you stop with the Trump thing?

Leave it alone.

He's gone, he's not the President.

Biden's the President.

That's the only thing you should be focusing on, is this administration, their policies.

Leave January 6th, leave Trump, the big lie, whatever, leave it alone.

Why can't we leave it alone?

- Tell back to all of the candidates who are running who are perpetuating the big lie.

It's not over.

First of all, President Trump is threatening to run again, as we know.

He's amassing, a war chest, as we know.

- He has every right to run.

Someone says, so what?

Why is that our business in the media that he wants to run?

Why is that relevant?

- Well, he can run again.

I mean, I'm more concerned actually with all of the people who are his acolytes, who are not rooted in reality.

Who either believe the big lie where president Trump doesn't admit that he lost or they are lying and just are telling all of the their followers that it's true.

That President Trump won somehow.

And so that just can't stand.

It can't stand.

I mean, we can't turn a blind eye to that.

We have to shine a light on that.

That is why democracy is in peril, and that's why we're at crossroads.

This is the moment, we can't look away from that.

I mean, of course I also on my show every day, look at what the Biden administration is doing.

I look at other breaking news.

Obviously, we have the whole gamut of news.

However, we cannot turn a blind eye to what's happening in these smaller state elections that are gonna be really important and powerful.

- Alisyn, I'm not sure if you were on the air live, when what was happening on January 6th was happening on January 6th.

Were you on the air live?

- No, I was at home.

I was still doing the morning show at that time.

And so I was resting.

My husband came into the bedroom and said, "Do you see what's happening?

Do you see what's happening at the Capitol right now?"

And I got up and turned it on, and it was just mayhem.

- What were you thinking in terms of what you... Well, it's been, as we do this program a year plus, what do you see your role, CNN's role being in terms of not just covering what happened but how it happened and what it means?

- Well, I think that we don't know all of the answers yet.

Where was President Trump?

What was he doing during all of that?

Why was he so delayed in any call for help?

Why was he so delayed in putting out a statement?

Was there any coordination between some lawmakers and the rioters as the rioters have said there was?

I mean, there's all sorts of things that still need to be answered.

So of course we need to move forward.

And every day we do move forward, but this is vital.

What happened?

That was the lack of a peaceful transfer of power.

So for the first time in our democracy, there was an attempt to stop the peaceful transfer of power with violence.

That can't go uninvestigated, that can't go untalked about.

And so it's not over.

I mean, it's just not over.

We don't have all the answers yet.

- Alisyn, what do you say to those who argue that CNN and other networks whose ratings were better when Trump was President are in part obsessed with Trump because talking about Trump is better for ratings?

- I don't think talking about Trump is better for ratings, to be honest.

I don't think that our viewers...

There's been all sorts of research done.

Our viewers are pretty plugged in.

Our viewers are pretty smart.

Our viewers are not believers in the big lie.

Our viewers are rooted in reality.

They don't love talking about Donald Trump.

So I don't think that that's really helpful for ratings.

We just follow the news where it goes.

And I have never once had a conversation ever with any of my bosses who say like, "Yeah, we gotta get back to covering Trump because that was good for ratings."

Nobody has ever used that calculation here.

- I'm gonna go back to covering the Biden administration in just a minute, but you mentioned your bosses.

I would be remiss, I would not be doing my job.

And here's the risk when you repeat a program like this, there are other...

I don't like the expression shoes to drop.

There are things that will happen.

There will be new information, but as we speak with Jeff Zucker, the President who you've worked with, who brought you into CNN from Fox News where you and I first met many years ago, we don't know all the reasons why but it is significant on so many levels.

How do you believe that-- What do you believe it means when a leader like Jeff Zucker leaves to a network.

We don't know what's gonna happen moving forward.

But what do you think?

What has it meant to you so far?

- It's been a really hard week for me.

It's been a really devastating emotional week for me because I love Jeff.

I love his leadership.

He was an inspiration to me.

Somehow, Jeff, I don't know how he does it.

He's super human.

He can spin a million plates at once.

He can deal with all of the international crises that are happening and all of our correspondent all over the globe, and all of the trouble spots and war zones that they're in and taking care of their safety and their security and their journalism, and still be fully present when I walk in with some problem on my two to four show or something that I wanna tell him, or a joke I wanna make to him.

He's fully present, and I just don'’t-- I haven't had that experience a lot in life.

I knew he was always watching.

I knew he was always rooting for me.

I knew he was always cheering all of us on.

So it's a big loss.

It's a big loss.

- You don't know all the reasons why, and that may come out later, but you're saying your relationship with him, he was the kind of leader in the news business that you appreciate.

- Totally, absolutely.

He was our cheerleader.

He loves journalism.

He lives and breathes it.

He believed in all of us and we wanted to do our best for him.

And so just as a boss, and I'm just speaking as a boss, and as my friend, I will miss him terribly.

Has the whole story been written?

I guess not.

I don't know, but I can't imagine anything that will make me not have Jeff Zucker as my friend.

And so it's definitely been a loss.

I mean, luckily there are so many stellar journalists at CNN that I'm so impressed with.

I admire them so much.

So everybody falls back on their training and falls back on their own foundation of journalism right now, and that's what we're doing.

But he already is sorely missed.

- I'm gonna ask you about the Biden administration and I'm not gonna go into the Chris Cuomo stuff.

There are so many pieces to that.

You work shoulder to shoulder with him.

I join you on your morning show many times when you were with Chris.

It happened.

It is what it is.

Again, we'll follow it and try to make sense of it on our end, but we don't cover the day-to-day that goes on there.

And we don't know if there's any correlation between the Chris Cuomo situation and the Jeff Zucker situation.

I don't know.

We don't know.

I'm gonna ask you about Biden, President Biden.

There are times that it seems, that someone argued he gets particularly irritated when he gets asked certain questions.

Recently called a reporter from Fox where used to work, a stupid SOB.

This will be dated, but that still happened.

Do you think President Biden is particularly comfortable in public press conferences being asked challenging questions?

- I think that every single public leader, public official, that I've ever covered has their strengths with certain mediums and their weaknesses with certain mediums.

So, I think that president Biden is good one-on-one.

I think one-on-one, he's always courteous of reporters.

He takes hard questions.

One-on-one he's focused, reporters can ask him whatever they want.

He seems pretty open.

I don't know that press conferences with people throwing questions at him or even the debate stage are his forte.

This is just my personal opinion.

I don't know if that's his strength.

And I think that all presidents bristle at tough questions or questions that they consider snide or unfair or below the belt or something from reporters.

I mean, we've seen that a million times.

President Trump, obviously- - Enemy of the people, Jim Acosta, the enemy of the people.

- Often denigrated reporters.

And all presidents get annoyed, get ticked off.

So I don't think that President Biden is particularly ticked off.

And I think that he should have more press.

I mean, the press feels that he should be more available and he should have more press conferences.

Presidents are busy.

So, I understand that he's dealing with international crises with Russia, possibly invading Ukraine.

- Again, we're taping on the 7th of February.

Don't know what's gonna happen.

Go ahead, Alisyn.

- Great point, but this is the tension, reporters will always, always want more access.

And I think presidents always, always push back.

- Alisyn, I got a minute left or so.

You still love what you do because.

- I feel the purpose...

I have always felt the sense of purpose from the very beginning of my career.

I do believe the public has a right to know what's really going on I've always been honored.

It's a privilege to have the seat that I have, and to be a conduit of information between powerful people and the public.

I get this privileged position to ask the questions that I hope I'm channeling right from the people at home and that they would ask.

And so, I've just never forgotten that, like holding that microphone is a real privilege.

And God bless the First Amendment, and that we are able to do that in this country.

And so every day is different.

And every day I still feel energized to get back in here in the ring and ask these questions.

- Before I let you go, my friend, you do have Jersey roots, do you not?

You admit that.

- Oh, proudly, Steve.

I mean, it's a badge of honor.

- What town?

Tell everyone.

- Shrewsbury, which is in Monmouth County, and just one of the best places in the world to grow up, right near the beach.

Everybody's cool.

Everybody's awesome from Monmouth County as I'm sure you know.

And so, I'm a proud Jersey girl.

- A Jersey girl doing very well in media.

Hey, Alisyn, good to see you, my friend.

- You too, Steve.

Always good to talk to you.

- Absolutely, I'm Steve Adubato, way more importantly, Alisyn Camerota, anchor CNN newsroom.

I'm Steve Adubato.

I said that already.

See you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato has been a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by Englewood Health.

The Healthcare Foundation of New Jersey.

Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

New Jersey Sharing Network.

The Turrell Fund, supporting Reimagine Childcare.

Johnson & Johnson.

NJM Insurance Group.

The New Jersey Education Association.

And by Berkeley College.

Promotional support provided by Meadowlands Chamber.

And by NJBIZ.

♪ It only gets better ♪ ♪ When we stand together ♪ ♪ To tough through ♪ ♪ And get by ♪ ♪ Even though it's harder than ever ♪ ♪ 'Cause we're gonna make it ♪ ♪ Long as we don't break it ♪ ♪ Just do right ♪ ♪ There's no sights ♪ ♪ We must know it's part of forever ♪