>> As state treasurer for 8 years, Allison Ball had many firsts.

The first constitutional officer to give birth while in office and one of the youngest to be elected at the time.

>> As a watchdog for Kentucky taxpayers then and now as state auditor, what will be our concentration and focus hear what she has to say now on connections.

♪ ♪ Thank you so much for joining us for connections today.

I'm Renee Shaw, State Auditor Allison Ball joins me to reminisce a little bit about our time is state treasurer, but she's also going to talk a lot more about her new role as auditor of public accounts that could have or oversee hundreds audits of government and public agencies a year.

And we're so delighted to have auditor Allison Ball with us.

You know, it's going to be hard for me to say that because I'm so used to call new having trouble.

Haha staying.

I'm getting their day there, but I'd say every day someone calls me treasure.

Yes, yeah.

Yeah.

I still call people who along.

But at the Kentucky General Assembly, whatever they were, they were better but they will always be.

Yeah, right.

So maiden name, you know, get stuck.

That's right.

Yeah.

So the transition is going well.

You have an excellent team.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I'm really excited of the team.

We've had a little over 30 days.

So.

>> This is an exciting season right now.

Everything is very new.

Very fresh out.

We've got a great vision, I think for the office and I'm not excite about well, we're going to do the next 4 years.

So we're going to talk about that.

But what advice did you give your successor Mark Metcalf?

So, you know, we have talked a lot on the campaign We had a good bust or for the last week and a half or so.

The campaign trail.

So we have a lot of conversations about what's it like to be You know what, what direction would what I suggest having done it for a while.

And so we had great conversations are really told me to make this your own.

I was privileged to be able to start a lot of things.

While I was treasure.

And so those are continue under his leadership.

But what make this your own?

You know, there's much that can be get done.

Well, there excitable.

He's going to his 4 years or more.

>> Well, we were delighted to talk with you many times when you were state treasurer when you were doing financial literacy and even financial empowerment, especially for women.

Yes, and those workshops that you are doing and seminars and also the stable accounts to help those with disabilities be able to save those things you think will continue.

I think they will.

And of course, I will continue to champion them because I have those make a huge difference in peoples lives.

So whether I'm the treasurer's office, we are is office where I am.

I want people to know about those things because they help people right across financial literacy is something I still care about.

Very deeply.

>> That's always been a part of who I am and then stable Kentucky.

Just a wonderful program for people with >> Yes, talk to us a little bit about how that works.

Sure.

it is a savings and investment program for people with disabilities.

you have to have developed a disability by the time.

You're 25.

Sometimes it's something that's somewhat born with.

>> But they may have developed it for a variety of reasons.

By that time.

And it really stretches your dollar and in a tremendous way, especially if you're receiving government benefits.

This is the real game changer about it right now.

If you don't have a stable account, you can only save $2000 a year without impacting your benefits.

So for most folks, they really just don't have savings.

And if you have one of these accounts than you can say that I think about $16,000, more a which is huge in if you're working, you can say between 11 12,000 more dollars.

So so a lot more money that you can say you can have control really just empowers people's lives.

And I'm sure members of that community.

We're just thrilled that that was accomplished, right?

Yes, I'm changing for them.

Life changing for them are wonderful stories from people under.

There's one woman in particular.

>> She was employed.

She had a job that she can do with the particular disability and she had a van that she had that was specially for her.

So she get to work.

It broke down and told her that cost more than $2000 to repair it.

And she was just despairing because you can see how she could save that amount of money.

So this was a great option for her.

Yeah.

>> Well, lets talk about your new as auditor.

So for those in people who watched KET know what the auditor does, but for those who may not, what is the role of the auditor of public accounts?

Sure.

And you have a sophisticate it already.

And so I talked to people that really know a lot.

But one thing that people ask me is like the IRS is not like the IRS will the individual people.

>> We have a department of revenue that that does that kind of work.

Of course, the IRS in DC they do that work.

What I do is I'm the auditor of public accounts.

So this is the state's money it's it's government agencies.

It's Elected offices it's school district says it's a variety of things that all use public dollars for it.

So it's a tremendous role.

If you're someone who believes in fiscal responsibility using your money.

Well, and being that watchdog, I was a prosecutor for a number of years.

So I I really do have a a accountability mentality, do things that I work on suicide is about good stewardship.

It's also making sure people are doing things right.

And those 2 things go hand in hand.

The auditor's office, you know, it's been said that like 600 odd, it's happened a year which we're trying to do trying to imagine like how do you KET track of that many audit?

So how does that work?

Well, and that is a great questions.

you know, they're sure not.

Is that our routine?

That does happen all the time.

>> so the whole process in the system for that.

So most of those audits are going to be the routine audits.

The gist ago, through every year, methodically.

I'm doing that and we actually have the ability.

If if it's a if it's an odd that we feel pretty confident in a county could hire a CPA, then we'll review it.

Make sure it's done, right.

So not all of it is being right on internally in our office.

Survior field staff.

But then you have special audits and those are the ones that are unusual.

And and that's, you know, my team coming in order to hire experts to come in and really be able to review dig deep, make sure things are being done right?

Yeah.

And so what?

What are the occasions by which a special audit would be called?

Well, we just had one.

We just released our review and this was a special circumstance.

And this was over the Department of Juvenile Justice.

So it began in our Harmon and then I got the opportunity to finish it out.

And that was a special situation.

We need a level of expertise that's unique to this area.

So we actually are able to contract out to get a little expertise and they work with our office to get that done.

So that's not a normal routine to dig deep at that level.

Right?

How long did it take them from that?

I know a lot or had asked for their services.

Good question.

the General Assembly asked last session for this to be done and there's a whole process because, of course, if the contract outright by people to do it.

So I believe it got started in September of last fall and they finish out in December.

So this was a a fast review I was going to say, or they typically that fast, maybe 3 to 4 months.

That's pretty ambitious of you.

It was a quick.

It was a quick one.

And I think they were able to in that period time find out what they need to know.

But usually around talk about 6 months a year, just to give yourself the length of time that you need to really evaluate something.

This was the cast a to a show where you KET there were problems to begin with, It didn't take a lot of digging to find that.

Yeah, you just validating perhaps what the news accounts have reported and we need to mention these are of the Duval to detention center's and Kentucky Adair Boyd breath it Campbell, Fayette, Jefferson, McCracken and Warren counties.

>> Done by this independent group and they found some or substantiated what many had already known or had been reported about.

If there were persistent problems because there has been violence, riot, sexual assault and some of these facilities, but also on the other.

And the detainees were subject to isolation policies and use of force policies that seem to be beyond the pale.

So so your assessment of what they found?

Yes, so, you know, I prosecuted juvenile cases for several years when I was a Floyd County.

So actually was very pleased to be the one to be able to review this had a background in And I really good care about these juveniles.

When I was doing that kind of work because >> you're not dealing with the perceptions of hardened criminals.

These are your teenagers.

Your kids and many times they just need.

They need some assistance and some helping to get their lives back on track.

So we reviewed all of this and and you get a good summary already.

Some of things I was most concerned about were the abusive practices that were carried out.

Our have been carried out relating pepper spray.

For example, when you compare what's being done in a juvenile detention center's in Kentucky to even just adult federal prisons.

It's widely out out, you know, far more than it should be done 73 times the amount that using a federal adult prison a while.

excessive is even kind of look at minimizing the amount that it's being used as excessive use of pepper spray.

What is problematic for a lot of reasons.

And then one of the ones I found the most disturbing was using isolation rooms in ways that are inappropriate, particularly for that age group.

So there are times when you do have to use that, but is usually a safety issue.

This was being used in a punitive way to punish kids.

And then I'm just using an abusive way where you're not allowing kids to shower.

We had instances where girls are being stripped down naked by men and in putting these isolation rooms.

So just a horrible situations for kids that are You know, many of them have committed crimes and that has to be addressed.

But many of them really need assistance.

They need help in this point in our lives.

Mind.

So abusive practices.

I was glad to be able to highlight that it needs to be addressed as we fix these things do not need to happen to a very vulnerable part of our community.

>> To the General Assembly or the governor or do they share some culpability?

Because like pepper spray is allowed, right?

Yeah, and that is a question.

So we did look at that because it was permitted under the But there are directions in the statute that say it should be and in need of any lead of certain personel doing it so it shouldn't be permitted for everybody and it shouldn't be the idea behind this is not excessive.

So what this review uncovered is that it was being pretty much allowed by everybody.

And there were is very little guidelines.

Islands existed were inconsistent.

you know, you have to have good policy.

You have to have good guardrails in place.

If you're going to use something like that, maybe there are instances where you do need to use it because there's been a problem.

Filings, there's been a problem with sexual abuse.

So you do need to be able to react to those situations.

But you can't do it in a way that is abusive and harmful right for these because you I love how you describe it that these these are adults, right?

These are kids of, you some as young as how young.

>> 14, 14.

So they're in their formative years and their brain is still being developed in their of it come from homes and circumstances that most of us cannot relate to absolutely recommendations that you are making God to fix these problems.

So the regulations are actually very simple.

You know, make sure that you have guidelines in place.

You don't have excessive use of force You know, we're not inventing the wheel.

Here we have.

We have information wall across the country about what's best practice and how to do this.

>> we know what should be done, the isolation rooms, they should be only used in certain situations.

And actually, there are other things that we're worrying too.

A lot of these kids have mental health issues.

A lot of them are on medication.

There was not good oversight.

There's not good intake.

I'm not good medical care in some instances for these kids when they come in, we need to have better staffing of people that know what they're doing and there needs to be review to make sure kids are taking their medication and that's appropriate for what they're dealing with.

So that's a key part of this, too, like these, these are vulnerable children who have a variety of issues going on in their lives, in The state has a responsibility to continue to educate these kids.

That's right.

He will not just warehouse them right.

Don't know how that you're not.

You're not tucking away somewhere.

And you are still trying to to train them up and prepare them to be responsible adults when they get out.

We know when the time comes.

So that was area to that was just woefully lacking.

A lot of inconsistency, some places where they were trying to educate the kids someplace where there's been a lot of movie days.

you know, kids being put in a room and just watch the iPad and they go through the motions.

and not really being accountable for that, right where they did or didn't do it right.

>> And in a lot of that really did come from not having the directions from the top.

And there's been a lot of turnover with with that particular area.

>> So I understand that.

But this is something that, you know, you're talking about very vulnerable.

I'm having been a prosecutor in this area.

I got to see firsthand kids that came came out of the got their lives on track and then kids that didn't you kind of want to be done some things differently right?

so I'm very hopeful that this is come to light times.

This was, again, like some of these were the same findings as previous previously found.

But I'm very hopeful that there's a seriousness about this right now.

The people recognizing these are vulnerable kids there in the state's care.

We need to do the right thing by them and help them get their lives on track.

Right.

>> And when you mentioned you know, their formative years and all the things that they had also endured, there's also serious staffing issues.

And you alluded to that about the turn over.

Yes.

And and not people being properly trained and just not being enough staff.

Right.

And Putin staff and vulnerable positions possibly themselves.

Yes, and that was a part of it to their.

That is an issue.

They have under staffing issues.

And, you know, there's there's safety for them.

But at the impression I got for a lot of these detention center's, we actually sent a ourselves just ago on the grounds.

He was really like.

>> And the pressure we got is a lot of these people that work there are just in survival mode.

So they really don't don't have the capacity to do a lot more.

They're just trying to get by day-to-day.

And that's not good either.

We did review the funding for the General Assembly and they put in 25 million dollars last year to specifically address some of those issues.

And we also saw it was under review.

Is the General Assembly actually in the last budget cycle gave about 9 million dollars more per year than what DJ Now, if they need more more money, then then you need to be a communication between the 2 because now so that's actually given more right?

I don't know if it's a proportion problem like are they putting in where the need to put it on what the deal is?

but under staffing is an issue.

They are getting consider a lot of money.

So we need to figure out what we need to do going forward was years that size of budget year.

But money may not be the total solution.

And I don't think it is the total solution because of some of is behavioral, right?

Yeah.

And policy directed.

That's right.

So some policy has to change.

May be funding just redirecting funds may be more to mental health services as you alluded to, which seemed to be locking.

Yes, absolutely.

And some of that is, you know, what's been the direction of the top was is is policy coming down so they could be really thoughtful direction coming from the top.

>> And of all the institutions that I mentioned, the facilities do.

Are they all sharing the same types of problems?

Are they worsen some facilities and not in others are.

And that is a great question.

And I would say there are a variety of instances.

All of them had issues.

All of them have problems, some places and better education and other places.

Another issue we found is that of those kids who are problematic, kids were then moved to another detention center and the problems moved with them.

you know it I there wasn't a gold standard we can set.

These folks are doing really well.

The problem that existed existed everywhere just in a variety of ways.

We've heard Senator Danny Carroll who has a big stake in this issue, had said on the Senate floor.

It's been a few weeks about how there could be a proposal to actually have a couple of more facilities, one in Louisville and I think one in Western Kentuckyian if made the Saysit 8, perhaps one in eastern Kentucky.

Do you think more facilities is the answer?

You know, I think it wouldn't hurt then you can use 0 in on some of the issues.

you know, I would be supportive of if they want to fund more fun more, make sure it's it.

There's the right amount of people for personnel.

So so I think it would hurt.

I think it made addressing those.

Yeah.

And just the whole deal about separating males and females and issue and kids being of further away from their parents in the parents can get to them or their caregivers or garden a lot.

And however, you know, those are those are complex issues.

They are called simply county.

We separated by the county and I remember how long it will take to get a breath county.

So there's a lot of parents and caregivers, like you said, you just can't get there, right?

So the regional aspect that is important and that could be addressed by putting some more strategically different places.

Yeah, well, I'm a lot of kids.

I mean, from foster care to this, I mean, it's all connected right?

In so many hard pivot to be Kentucky community and technical college system.

Right?

And there was audit done of this system as well.

Under your predecessor church.

But you know, you you are carrying the ball now.

No pun intended to know bad he can do any better than that.

>> What does this tell us?

>> Sure.

so one of things I'm hopeful about that.

And again, this was my presence here.

This was Mike Harmon and they didn't cover in a financial issues or it issues relating to that particular school system.

I'm very hopeful that there's a new clean start about to happen with that particular organization.

Of course, my friend Ryan corals is the new president there.

So I know him very well with the law school together.

Of course, we got to serve together as constitutional officers.

I know he's going to read through that you know, do everything he can to make sure all those issues are addressed.

And then it's, you know, better than we can even imagine.

So I'm very confident, optimistic that that that's going to be dealt with water.

Every time we've been dealing with workforce shortage is the time for the case.

ETS system to be working at optimal levels.

>> Is now actually.

And that is a great point.

Yes, it's good for the economy to give everybody to have a very strong school system like that.

Yeah.

So as you alluded to, we are in a budget year all the time that we talked to are almost halfway to the end of the 60 day session.

>> You have made your budget request for your agency.

The House has passed its version of the budget that those square did.

You get what you want it?

You know, we're still working through some things.

And that has been my experience.

Every budget cycle of ever been through.

And you work through a few things until the very, very and so that's not unusual.

But I am encouraged because they do a few things that I asked them to do the House side.

And I'm hopeful that will happen such >> And so funny, the JCPS audit.

That's something that I talked about on the campaign trail.

And this is a Jefferson County public Her clarifying that.

So it's been almost 10 years a thorough audit was done.

That was done under Adam Dylan.

And it's high time to do it again and just appropriate to do those things periodically.

And there are some issues that we want to look at specifically the busing issues that happened last school year's was the there's a lot of issues in that school in pinpointing it down to different aspects.

And we are is pretty broad.

It's actually asked for consider a lot of money so that we I can go where we need to go with this.

But there are some things that we know.

We want to look at.

Some of the busing graduation, isn't it?

As we all know about also, our is the money being used in the classroom, the way that it should or is it going to administration?

How are students doing and then safety issue in the schools, our students safe for people that work in the schools safe.

So those are going to be the highlight.

So what I want to look at you know, cost a lot of money to do that.

so I asked the General Assembly, please a lot.

1.5 million dollars.

I think that is enough to be able to see whatever we need to see.

Right.

And this is the largest school district in the country.

So it's not on the country in the state.

So I think that there's a reason to do that.

Not just because of Louisville, it's a big area, but it's important for the rest of the state to see that too.

You know, you can learn from that and follow along as any to.

>> Is that going to an independent 3rd party group that does that come out?

And I think it will be just because we need a certain level of expertise when it comes to school districts.

Right?

So I think you just once every 10 years or so, you want to make sure you do it right and well.

>> You know, I'm proud of my staff and the work that we that we've done already in the work that we're going to do and the capabilities.

But I think this one does require some outside expertise.

Yeah.

>> we think about other things that your office does and and that you're going to try to continue some of the things you did.

A state treasurer.

What are your top 3 priorities for the first 6 months year and offered a auditor.

General is Jason P s a all right.

It's going to be a big deal.

And I think that's actually going to stretch into the next year because we want to do this right and want to do well.

>> And one thing I'm actually kind of notice so far is there is becoming a theme already in the first 30 days of my time in office of a heavy focus on on children.

I'm Morse.

I want to make sure all government is working properly you know, are fighting as waste, fraud and abuse.

I did that as a watchdog on the treasurer's office that will continue.

So the core function of the job making sure all portions of government are, you know, operating correctly and that we're we're not wasting money.

there's not, you know, fraudulent things going on.

That's going happen no matter what.

But there is sort of becoming a theme already in a heavy focus on children.

I'm a as you said, that 5 year-old a 2 year-old was the first a customs officer to give birth while serving also office in the first one to do it twice.

So, yeah, you know, I do think well placed to pay attention to things are happening to kids.

And I feel like the djj audits for kick this off on that that I really do have a a heart for for kids across our county.

So now that's building will be doing.

It's not right.

A lot of things.

there is becoming a bit of a theme in that area.

Well, of course, we've heard reports about kids who are been stuffed away and state office buildings, right?

Who are in out of home care.

Yeah.

It's something that you're going to look into.

Yes, that is something that I do want to look into her, figure out what the scope of that would be.

But we talked about that in the office, too, because we're talking about vulnerable kids and Djj kit.

>> You know, the the extremely high number of kids are in the Jefferson County School system.

And of course, children in foster care.

Go right hand in hand that especially the children who were sleeping office buildings.

>> I did those cases to and I was in Floyd County prosecutor that the pensive neglected these cases.

you know, I really developed a heart for that.

While I was in that role.

So it goes hand in hand.

That is something I do want to look at.

Yeah.

>> Any other area that you think in the next year was a lot that I was able to imagine those 2 things.

I mean, that certainly occupies a lot of time.

That's not in the routine things that you said, of course, on a calendar to sure to check out at the routine things will happen.

And then as I've learned, even in the 30 days that I've been there, a people bring things to your attention and you need to look into.

So already I'm being told that there's an issue in this fire department is issuing this particular city.

>> So, yeah, you know what a sus out and what to ignore.

You know, I'm learning that and that's a great question.

I think being a lawyer by background, I'm always a little bit skeptical when people tell me things, right, right.

So I want to you can come to you and say I want you to look into this.

Yes, anybody can.

And that's good.

You want to be that way.

You want an open door.

You can hear what's going on.

But you also don't want to go after people when they don't deserve it.

So like the need to have a little bit healthy skepticism of people tell you things open door.

Please tell me whatever you're concerned about.

>> But I am going to try to do the work to make sure that if a person that route that it's worthwhile.

>> Not it doesn't mean indictment.

That's exactly right.

It's exactly right.

So, you know, the audit is that first step trying to figure out is something going on.

And sometimes it's just because there's there's a current people don't know the right thing to do.

And that's very different from a criminal activity.

And sometimes it is a criminal activities, knows there's investment or other issues going on.

So, you know, we need to just be very careful as we go about things to treat the right way.

Yeah.

>> So as you know, where we're in a presidential election in Kentucky is kind of a flyover Scott Jennings has a podcast approved fully entitled and we think how the tone and the tenor politics is now.

We've talked about this before.

And so many of you and your class of 2016 as we like to call you back, had a different way of approaching governing and policy making.

That isn't and always what we see on TV commercials.

Yeah, right.

I mean, what are your concerns about this presidential election year?

So, you know, the tone is always important to me.

And and you've been around me a few times during the campaign cycle.

And you know that that for me, my tone is important.

You know, I always want to be statesmen like I want to listen to people.

I want to hear what's going on.

>> I do have things I believe in.

I am a conservative.

I do believe in fiscal responsibility.

So I'm going to stand up for the things I believe in.

But I'm always, you know, trying to in a way that is respectful to others and hopefully present ideas in a way that even pulls people in that they can You know, you have a point.

So for me in my approach, I don't want to close the door to people.

I want them to listen to me and we can have a back and forth.

That's always my approach in all probably be this year because, you know, like official you get pulled into races.

So that's always my approach is always my style.

to being an advocate for certain candidates that I advance conservative principles that I believe in, even though the office is really to operate in a non-partisan independent way.

John was going to be that way.

Yeah, I was always that way.

But you know, again, I I am a Republican elected official.

And so I do get I hope other Republicans get elected.

But of course, the job is always going to be a nonpartisan job to treat everybody the same way to temperature to revisit very quickly.

The Department of Juvenile justice issues that are going on.

And we know that the executive branch Governor Andy Beshear is in charge of helping that do do what it does and our improved.

But it's not doing.

Are you working collaboratively with the governor on this issue?

That's a good question.

And I would love to work with his office.

We have our findings you know, they're pretty self-explanatory name, read them.

And in some ways they commented.

>> If they want help going through this, happy to help because are really just want the problem fixed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It requires a nonpartisan solutions.

Yeah, I get to a climate is such in Kentucky you're not going not do a deal because it's an election year Black.

What we see in Washington's no, I don't think Kentucky's like that.

You know, you might do that in DC is a whole different level of playing in DC but in Kentucky, I think we really just want to get the job done.

Yeah.

So for the General Assembly, your hope is when the bill, when the budget bill finally comes to the process and we know we've got miles to go before we sleep yesterday, right?

What do you hope that it will reflect for the state auditor's office JCPS Johnny?

That's important because our are really not wanted to put the burden of that on the school system.

I want to make sure this is done right and well and will make sure money.

Then that would be a convincing case not to put the burden of the cost on your system.

That I've said that when I talked to legislators about this is the reason why I'm asking the right and they seem to be the amenable today.

They should be fables that I think they understand we want money to go into the classroom.

Do you want me to go past room any get which before settling on and it's worth spending the money on it.

>> But I would like it to be my cousin classroom.

And this audit is paid for by something else.

Yeah, we'll have to have you back because there's never enough time and it is it's really want people understand with the office does right?

I mean, it's not just the governor.

There are so many other offices in the executive branch level.

>> But do so much good work.

And we thank you for continuing.

Thank you very much.

Yes, it's always good to see you guys.

And good to see you at home.

Thank you so much for watching our conversation today.

You can always watch past episodes on our website and even listen to the podcast it KET Dot Org Slash podcast.

KET in touch with what's happening in Frankfort.

We gave you a complete rundown every week night on Kentucky edition at 6.30, Eastern 5.30, central right here on KET and follow me on X and Facebook and Instagram.

Also to stay in the loop.

Thanks so much for watching today.

I'm Renee Shaw.

Take really good care and I'll see you soon.

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