>> Food, food.

Glorious food.

It makes the body healthy unless it doesn't stay with us.

As we talk to registered dietitian doctor Karen McNeese about our dietary options.

Next on Kentucky Health.

>> Kentucky Health is funded in part by a grant from the Foundation for a Healthy Kentucky.

>> The US Department of Health and Human Services has stated that Health and Human Services is taking bold, decisive action to reform America's food system to identify the root causes of the chronic disease epidemic and make America healthy again here in Kentucky, the Make America Healthy Again Kentucky Task Force has several stated objectives.

They are one.

Support food is medicine programs two.

Address the purchasing of healthy foods with Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program dollars three seek ways to improve healthy meals in schools and four find ways to address public education and access to foods that are not ultra processed.

As we look at rising rates of obesity, diabetes, and the early onset of chronic illnesses, including cancer, two major factors have been identified as stated in the Maha initiatives.

They are one the environment and two what we eat.

Most of us are neither farmers or ranchers, and we do not control the means of production and processing of our foods.

Rather, we are the end users of a rather complex and interdependent system of factory farming and ranching, commercial food processing, packaging and distribution.

Yet, as we seek to return to healthier eating behavior, there are things that we can and must do, albeit they are not always easy, but with some effort, they are achievable.

Today's guest doctor Karen McNeese, will tell us more about mindful eating and navigating the maze of food.

Selection and preparation.

Doctor McNeese earned a bachelor's degree in dietetics from Syracuse University, and then a doctorate in health promotion from the University of Kentucky.

She is currently a registered dietitian with Human Resources, Health and Wellness at the University of Kentucky.

Doctor Karen, thank you for being with us today.

>> Thank you for having me.

Doctor Tuckson.

>> I think I left out you had a stopover in Louisville for a while too, didn't you?

>> I sure did.

>> What'd you do up there?

>> I got a master's degree in a completely unrelated field.

>> Well that's good.

We don't want you to leave out any one of our major institutions here in the state of Kentucky.

And now I'm going to get in trouble with every other institution for Kentucky for saying that.

How did you get into dietetics?

>> I saw my father go through a transformation with his health when I was a teenager.

And we have a family history of high cholesterol, heart disease.

Both my grandfathers died early from those diseases, and I think my father once he had two children.

I have a younger sister.

He realized, boy, I want to be around for a long time for my kids.

And at that point, the Pritikin diet, which some folks may be familiar with, a very low fat diet, very plant based diet, was was in fashion.

And he adopted that.

And I saw the transformation in what we were eating, his health, his energy levels.

And when it came time to pick a major in college, I said, wow, I want to be a part of this and and help other people be able to to change their lives to through food.

>> Had nothing to do with trying to improve the quality of food and nutrition for those Syracuse basketball and football players.

>> They've got professional help.

They don't need me.

>> I seem to recall that during the medieval and into the 1700s, that a loaf of bread or two was something that a lot of the peasants in Europe were eating, and this sustained them.

Now, I cannot imagine doing that same thing with the bread that we have today.

Is there something different that's going on with these things?

>> There are some differences in our bread today.

One is the type of wheat that we're using.

It is different than the wheat that was used, say a couple hundred years ago or even further back that has lower nutrient density.

This type of wheat also a different protein structure.

So some of the current research shows us it might be pro-inflammatory, which is something that will harm our health.

The other issue is the fermentation.

So we used to have a much longer fermentation process when we made bread.

And that would actually make nutrients more accessible to our bodies and easier to digest.

And now we have very short term, more industrial yeasts that work very quickly and don't allow for that long fermentation process.

So between those two things, lower nutrient density, less accessibility to the nutrients that are in the bread.

I think you're right.

I think there is a difference.

And a lot of my clients do report feeling that if they eat too much bread, especially the industrial type bread that I just described, that they don't feel very good.

There's a lot of gut issues that may explain some of kind of the gluten sensitivities that we're we're also seeing as well, not necessarily a gluten allergy or celiac disease, but just people generally not feeling good and realizing that when they eat a lot of those products.

So I do recommend, to the extent possible, people try to find a bread that is the basic ingredients.

It was all those hundreds of years ago.

So flour, water, yeast, salt, maybe a little bit of a sweetener in there.

Those are really the basic ingredients of bread.

And if you see a lot more than that, then you might want to to look elsewhere or figure out how to make your own, which can be pretty inexpensive and fairly easy to do as well.

>> So we.

>> Always hear people say, okay, I'm not going to eat white bread, is it?

I'm only going to eat the darker breads.

Is it that simple or is there something else that's happening there?

>> Well, both our white and our whole wheat breads right now are quite industrial in terms of what I'm talking about.

But there is a benefit to trying to do whole wheat bread more often.

You will certainly get more nutrition, because you will have that whole grain intact and get all the fiber and micronutrients that come from that.

>> So something I need to watch out for.

Then another term that we hear, and I really don't know how to make sense of this.

There is GMO, natural and organic food products and yeah, so or and I guess regular stuff.

So what are we really talking about?

And is there a difference in nutritive value when we compare these terms.

>> Let's start with natural.

>> Okay.

>> That's a pretty meaningless term to me.

It's very loosely regulated.

There's a lot of loopholes in its enforcement and it's really a marketing term.

So I tell people, ignore that.

If you see it on a package, it means nothing.

Then you have GMO, right?

That stands for genetically modified organisms.

Now, major groups like the FDA, the Food and Drug Administration, and Who, the World Health Organization, they have basically come down and said those are safe for human consumption.

There is a lot of controversy about that, though, right?

So I do think there is some room for for debate.

I'm not sure the science is quite settled on that, but I do think one of the concerns as well is the farming practices that are used in the environmental impact those have.

So whether to choose GMO or non-GMO might be more of a personal kind of moral consideration in terms of that.

But I also don't want people to forget that GMOs have been very instrumental in reducing food insecurity in a lot of in a lot of parts of the world where you can grow crops, have a high yield under very difficult growing circumstances.

So it has played a very important role in food insecurity in some places.

And then finally you have organic.

>> Yeah.

>> Now all organic foods are non-GMO.

So it includes that.

So anything you buy organic will not have GMO.

But organic food also refers to the farming practices that are used in terms of rotating crops, trying to be a little friendlier to the earth and the soil, not using synthetic pesticides.

If you're talking about livestock, you're not using antibiotics or growth hormones.

The thing about nutrition with organic foods is that the the research has not conclusively shown that those organic foods are more nutrient dense than non-organic foods.

You cannot you cannot prove that across the board at this point.

There's a lot of things that go into the nutrient density of especially plants.

If you think about the growing conditions of that season or the particular soil quality of where it's grown.

So there's a lot of variation.

It's very hard to study and prove that organic foods are any more nutrient dense.

But I do think if people are trying to look to reduce their exposure to things like the synthetic pesticides and the antibiotics and the growth hormones, then certainly that would be a compelling reason to to consider that.

>> So when looking at some of these labels, it may have about more of the environmental impact to the land and all of us, as opposed to the nutrient content.

You used the term a couple of times, nutrient density.

What does that mean and how can I find it?

Is there something that says, hey, I'm very dense in nutrients?

>> Well, nutrient dense to me means it has a food, has something in it that's good for you, that's health promoting.

Now, that's a pretty big category that we could spend a whole nother show talking about.

But I do think the mistake we've made in a lot of nutrition education and public policy is that we very much have talked about what not to eat.

We've very much focused on don't eat this, don't eat fat.

That was the craze for the 90s, right?

Don't eat fat.

What happened?

We ended up eating a lot more refined carbohydrates in our calorie intake went up and we became more overweight and less healthy.

Right.

So this is an example of the consequence when you get people thinking about what not to eat, they also get scared.

Right?

And there's a lot of fear and anxiety about food for people already.

So I really like to focus on the nutrient density.

What does this food have in it that's good for me?

I don't care that it has low fat or low sodium or low sugar.

Does it have some fiber in it?

Does it have some potassium?

Does it have some protein?

Does it have something that is going to promote our well-being and our health?

>> Are you a label reader because it seems like.

And will we find some of that information by looking at a label?

Because some of these look rather complex and you almost have to have a thesaurus with you.

>> You're right.

And I know a lot of your audience must feel that way.

And I've gotten tricked by a lot of food labels in my day.

And so I always like to tell people, even the even the dietician gets tricked.

And if I'm not reading properly or I'm in a hurry and not checking everything out, I get a product home and I'm like, oh, I can't believe I didn't catch that.

But one of the biggest things I tell people is to ignore the front of the package.

That is where all the marketing tricks happen.

All those labels like natural that mean nothing or free from this or that, right?

Again, creating kind of this illusion that it's healthy.

What you want to do is ignore the front of the package.

Yeah, look right at that label with all those numbers on there and the ingredient list.

Now, the numbers on there, you know, I think it's important to look at calories.

Maybe look at I look at added sugar sodium, maybe sometimes fiber and protein.

Those are probably my big ones to look at on a label, but I often find it more useful to look at the ingredient list.

I really want to see one.

How long is the ingredient list and does the ingredient list include things that I can identify?

Can I instinctually know what those things are?

Right?

But if there are things that I can't pronounce, I couldn't even begin to tell you what they are even as a dietitian.

Then I'm putting that product usually back on the shelf.

So a longer ingredient list with a lot of things you don't recognize is probably a sign that it's low nutrient density and just generally a low, a low quality food.

>> So again, you come back to that nutrient density thing.

So tell me, when we look at foods that may be high calorie, low nutritional value foods, how do we tell.

And what's the balance that we're looking for here?

>> In my mind, those foods include a lot of what we call ultra processed foods.

So those are going to be things like chips, snack foods, desserts, cookies, all those kinds of things, right, that are, yes, very high calorie because they usually have a lot of fat, added sugar, refined carbohydrates, but low nutrient density.

That's an example of a food that's those those things.

There's really nothing health promoting or nourishing in it.

Now, I do want to say, though, it's important to me for people to know that eating a cookie because it tastes delicious and you love it is okay.

>> We thank you very much, I appreciate that.

Okay, I get a pass now.

>> We should all especially.

Yeah, we should all allow ourselves, you know, the permission to do that.

There is, you know, an inherent value in just the pleasure of food.

So you don't always have to be concerned about that, right?

Especially with special occasions or certain foods you don't eat that often.

So I do want to be sure people understand that.

But these ultra processed foods are a real problem.

And you hear, you know, the Maha movement and places like that talking more about them now.

But these are industrial foods.

Gotcha.

They're not even real foods, right?

The way I explain it to people is I could make, you know, yogurt in my kitchen if I wanted to.

I don't because I'm busy and I'm lazy a lot of the time.

And I'm just going to go buy some plain yogurt, right?

I could also make peanut butter at home, right?

But I'm not going to do that.

I'm going to go buy that.

But buying those things in a processed form is not really problematic, right?

Because they're familiar ingredients.

There's very few ingredients you could theoretically make it in your home kitchen.

So to me that's the standard.

Now could I make Cheetos in my kitchen at home?

No, I love Cheetos, but no, I can't make that.

I couldn't even begin to figure out how to make Cheetos, because there are industrial processes and ingredients that I don't have access to in my home kitchen to make that.

So I hope that that's helpful for the audience to hear how to kind of make that distinction.

How much does this resemble a real whole food versus something that's completely industrial made?

>> So because I don't want people to feel bad, but sometimes these foods are cheap, they are available and and they're convenient.

So when you have that family where everyone has to get out early quickly, I think in terms of like a sugary cereal in the morning with milk or even one of these pastries that you can pop into a toaster oven or something, it seems like it's better than nothing.

Yes, it's not good.

But so do we.

Tell people, hey, you're doing something terrible, or you say, hey, you're doing the best you can and try to minimize whenever you can, but if this is what you can do, do this.

>> I mean, that is really going to be on a case by case basis.

Even when I think about how I might talk to my clients in a situation like that.

Right.

I'm asking about, you know, what is the budget?

What what, what access do you have to other options?

And if you have access to other options, let's talk about what those are.

And could there be some kind of, you know, upgrade or swap that you make that improves the the nutrient densities of the of the foods that you're serving?

And a lot of people I know, they want to eat.

Well, most people do.

They have that intention and they are trying.

And I really empathize with that because there's just so much conflicting information, and the information is overwhelming and people don't really know what to believe.

So they are trying their best.

But sometimes they're just being being led astray by by everything else.

>> Yeah.

Because we have these things called what food deserts.

And this is when you really run into problems.

So how do you look at when you say something's a food desert?

What does that mean to you?

>> Well, I think it generally means it's there's not a full service grocery store close by.

Usually.

I think the definition is half a mile to a mile.

Yeah.

You maybe only have access to, like, convenience stores or fast food places.

Gas stations, maybe sometimes like a dollar store, a Dollar General.

Right.

Those are kind of everywhere.

Even when there's no grocery stores.

And the surprising thing is that you can find some decent options in these places.

I mean, I'm not trying to say food deserts are okay, and we shouldn't work to eliminate or minimize them, but I don't also want people to feel like they are a victim of their circumstances completely, because I do think there are foods.

Say if you walk in a Dollar General, I could I could find you a balanced meal to make.

We could probably find some, maybe some bread and some peanut butter.

We could find some pasta and some canned beans.

Maybe we could find some tuna, some canned tuna or some canned chicken.

We could find some frozen fruits or some frozen vegetables, canned fruits or canned vegetables.

There's a lot of things you can find in a store like that, and put together a decent meal that is fairly nutrient dense.

>> Just takes a little bit extra work.

>> It does, and it's not the things people want to gravitate to necessarily, right?

You want to go for those, you know, ultra processed foods, like I say, because those foods are made to be hyper palatable.

They are meant to get you to eat a lot of them.

And a lot of people do describe those foods as addictive.

People use that word with me, and I believe that.

And there's plenty of research to show that these industrial formulations are made to kind of hijack our brains so that we don't feel fullness when we eat those foods, and to kind of really get that reward system in the brain going so that we want to keep eating them.

So there's reasons why it feels difficult to, for people to stop the cycle of eating those types of foods.

>> An area of confusion for many of us was the food pyramid that came out in the 90s and perpetuated into the early 2000, where it had, what, the breads and all this stuff.

And now we've got this thing of a healthy eating.

Tell me about the original food pyramid.

Who designed this thing and what was the idea?

And then we'll talk about the healthy eating plate.

>> So the food pyramid and the healthy plate, the my plate that that exists now, they're really two sides of the same coin.

They were both developed by the USDA, the United States Department of Agriculture.

That's the organization in charge of kind of our nutrition public policy in this country.

They're not that different, to be quite honest.

There were some changes from my pyramid to my plate, but the intention has always been to provide a very general blueprint for the American public of how to structure a healthy diet.

That's the intention I have personally, some concerns about either of those models, and also what may come next after my plate, because there will be something new at some point.

I have concerns because we do know that there are a lot of political interests that do go into to those.

We have a lot of lobbying groups, as you can imagine.

You know, every ingredient and food item that can have a lobby.

They descend on Washington when these things are being made.

>> There's a food industrial complex.

Oh my goodness.

>> Okay.

Yes.

So no, there's I think people really do need to understand there's a lot of lobbying that goes into that.

And even though you you want to think that these models are made from the scientific evidence that we have about what is best for human health, I think that's to some degree there.

But a lot of it, again, has, I think, been overridden by these special interests and lobby groups that get things represented because that's in their corporate interest to do.

>> So.

How do you tell us what's on your plate?

What are the things that we should look at?

Because you've already told me that we shouldn't have all this bread and stuff like that, and it looks like.

So you tell me, what do I need to have?

What should my plate look like?

>> Let me start by saying that what we know about human health and nutrition, we've known for a long time, and it's not going to change.

Okay, I know people feel like it's always changing because that's what the news cycle is designed to do, right?

To get you to feel like things are always changing and we're discovering something new.

But but we we haven't and we're not going to.

So the basics are lots of plant foods fruits, vegetables, beans, nuts, seeds, all of those things.

Right?

Also grains to some extent, particularly whole grains when we can doing the whole wheat bread like we talked about doing brown rice or whole wheat pastas, starchy vegetables like potatoes, all very nutrient dense foods.

You also want to get some lean proteins.

Those might be animal based, right?

They might be chicken, very lean beef, seafood.

You could also do eggs.

You could also do dairy foods.

And then a little bit of healthy fats.

Right.

That's going to come from some of those nuts and seeds.

Also olive oils avocado oils, things like that.

Those to me are the basics.

And that's generally how I try to structure my diet in the meals that I eat.

But again, the specific the specific quantities and ratio of those foods and macronutrient groups to each other can look really different person to person.

Right.

And again, that's some of my my concern with these, my plate and my pyramid that they're very generalized.

But we do know everybody's different.

Right.

And I want people to feel like if their plate doesn't quite look like what's recommended by, you know, the my plate, that's okay.

If it works for you and you're thriving with that and feeling good and managing your health and preventing disease with with the way you have your plate structured, then that works for you.

And that's okay.

So I think we also have to remember that we have our own internal wisdom about what what is good for us too.

>> I love to ask this question to people like you.

So how are you preparing your food?

Are you frying, broiling, air fryer?

Microwaving what?

What is?

How do we cook things to preserve not only taste and our cultural heritage, but also to maintain the nutrient value?

>> I think everything is, you know, in moderation, in balance.

I know people get tired of hearing dieticians say that, but, you know, a little bit of a little bit of pan frying, if that's what a recipe calls for.

That's okay.

I might limit the deep frying to some extent.

That's a little different, right?

So I do love my air fryer.

If we're talking about frying I like to say yes, I do love, love, love my air fryer.

I also love quick and easy things.

Right?

So I like getting the crock pot that cooks itself or the instapot that is like a crock pot, but much faster.

So I, you know, people can, you know, be able to have some of those tools, those can help make healthy food preparation feel a little bit more accessible.

But I'm not doing anything fancy.

I didn't even know how to cook until after I became a dietitian.

I am I am a self-taught chef.

I'm very basic, and I don't consider myself to have great culinary skills.

But I still make it happen.

You know, it's not fancy.

It's pretty basic, but I get my family fed and I want people to to know that it can be fairly simple and you don't have to have a whole lot of skills or fancy techniques up your sleeve to, to eat.

Well.

>> I want you to, as we're wrapping things up, what is the one thing that we all get wrong and tell me why that is?

When we're thinking about food, food preparation, or even our choices.

>> No one food is going to cure you or kill you.

That is what I want people to know.

But again, like I said, our media, social media, everything we're hearing makes us feel that way, that we're going to eat one wrong food and it's all going to be over, right?

Or we're going to eat this one food every day and we're going to prevent all disease.

It doesn't work like that, right?

It works over time and it works.

What are you doing most of the time?

Over time.

Right.

It's the long term habits and what you're generally doing.

So I tell people that's why we want to aim for progress, not perfection.

There's just no such thing as a perfect diet.

I couldn't tell you what that is.

There's no such thing.

All we want to do is try to just do a little bit better than we did before.

And that's, I think, what what what I want people to know.

>> So my eating a bag of potato chips is not a good thing.

What am I going to substitute for that snack urge?

>> I like to suggest popcorn people.

Yes.

If people like crunchy, salty things which a lot of people do.

Popcorn.

Not movie butter popcorn, right?

But a popcorn that is lightly seasoned.

>> Microwave popcorn.

>> Yes.

Yeah, but make sure it's just got, you know, light oil, light salt.

Right.

Not not too much fat and sodium on that nutrition facts label.

But popcorn is a whole grain high in fiber.

>> Really.

>> Yes.

Go for it.

>> So just don't add a whole lot of butter and salt and all that sort of thing.

>> Yeah, a little bit.

Okay.

Yeah.

>> My microwave popcorn.

I'm okay to do that.

>> Yes.

>> I have your permission.

>> You know what you can do?

You can put your popcorn kernels in a brown paper lunch bag.

Yeah.

Put it in the microwave for 90s or so, just like you would a bag of popcorn.

Yeah.

It'll be much cheaper.

And you won't have exposure to any of the chemicals that are in that popcorn bag.

And you can control everything that goes on to it after that.

>> Well, I'm going to let you know how that goes, and you're going to have to come back later and talk to us about diet and weight loss.

Karen, thank you very much for being with us.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> And thank you for being with us today.

Food is medicine, and though it may sometimes be difficult, it is important that we make the best of the choices that are available to us.

I hope that you have gained a better insight into discerning nutritive from nonnutritive items, and are able to make better choices both for your physical but also for your financial health.

If you wish to watch this show again or watch an archived version of past shows, please go to ket.org.

If you have a question or comment about this or other shows, we can be reached at KY at ket.org.

I look forward to seeing you on the next Kentucky Health, and I do look forward to hearing from you if you decide to use the Karen McNeese Popcorn Maker Brown bag technique in the microwave.

Look forward to seeing you next week on Kentucky Health.

And thank you, Karen.

Thank you, Brown bag.

>> I