>> Renee: GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO "KENTUCKY TONIGHT" ."

I'M RENEE SHAW.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS e OUR TOPIC TONIGHT, KENTUCKY'S JUVENILE JUSTICE SYSTEM.

RIOTS AND OTHER VIOLENCE PROMPTED GOVERNOR ANDY BESHEAR TO MAKE CHANGES TO THE SYSTEM.

MALE AND FEMALE JUVENILES ARE BEING SEPARATED WITH THE FEMALE ONLY JUVENILE CENTER OPENING IN NEWPORT, AND JUVENILES ARE ALSO BEING SEPARATED BASED ON THE SEVERITY OF THEIR CRIMES.

LAST WEEK THE GOVERNOR RAISED THE PAY FOR WORKERS AT JUVENILE JUSTICE CENTERS AND HE CALLED FOR THOSE WORKERS TO BE ARMED WITH PEPPER STRAY AND TASERS.

NOT EVERYONE AGREES WITH THESE MOVES, AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THEM AND WHAT ELSE NEEDS TO BE DONE.

WITH OUR GUESTS THAT WE HAVE IN OUR LONGS STUDIO: STATE SENATOR WHITTEN WESTERFIELD FROM FRUIT HILL AND STATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE CHAIR.

STATE SENATOR JASON NEMES WENS A REPUBLIC FROM MIMED TOWN AND HOUSE MAJORITY WHIP.

STATE REPRESENTATIVE KE HURE A HERRON, A DEMOCRAT FROM LOUISVILLE.

JOSH CRAFTERS, DIRECTOR OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE ISSUE IN TIS AT THE CENTER FOR OPPORTUNITY.

AND SOMEWHERE THEIR BROOKS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF KENTUCKY YOUTH advocates WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU.

SEND YOUR QUESTIONS B SEND AN EMAIL TO KYTONIGHT@KET.

OR USE THE WEB FORM AT KET.ORG/ OR YOU CAN JUST GIVE US A CALL AT 1-800-494-7605.

WE BEGIN TONIGHT WITH THE LEXINGTON HERALD-LEADER'S JOHN CHEVES WHO HAS BEEN SPENDING YEARS WRIGHT ABOUT KENTUCKY'S JUVENILE JUSTICE SYSTEM.

HE CAULKED TALKED TO OUR CASEY PARKER-BELL LAST WEEK ABOUT THE PERSIST PROBLEMS IN SOME KENTUCKY JUVENILE DETENTION CENTER AND THE BESHEAR ADMINISTRATION'S RESPONSE TO IT.

>> >> John: THE YOUTHS WILL OFTEN BREAK LOOSE OUT OF THEIR CELLS, TAKE CONTROL FOR A WHILE, GET AHOLD OF KEYS FROM THE YOUTH WORKERS, OPEN DOORS, LET THEIR NEIGHBORS OUT.

THEY'LL RUN WILD, RUN A RAMPAGE, DO DESTRUCTION.

THERE WAS A TERRIBLE RIGHT IN NOVEMBER AT THE ADAIR COUNTY YOUTH DETENTION CENTER.

A YOUNG WOMAN WAS SEXUALLY ASSAULTED.

PEOPLE WERE TAKEN TO THE HOSPITAL TO BE TREATED FOR THEIR VARIOUS.

THAT REALLY GETS PEOPLE'S ATTENTION.

>> Casey: WAS BEING DONE RIGHT NOW TO IMPROVE THE SITUATION IN THESE FACILITIES?

>> John: GOVERNOR BESHEAR ANNOUNCED A PLAN TOWARD THE END OF LAST YEAR TO CHANGE HOW THE YOUTHS ARE HOUSED, SO UNTIL THEN IT WAS DONE ON A GEOGRAPHIC BASIS.

IF YOU GOT IN TROUBLE IN LEXINGTON, YOU WENT TO THE FAYETTE RESIDENTIAL CENTER, AND IF YOU WERE IN CENTRAL KENTUCKY, YOU GOT SENT TO THE FAYETTE RESIDENTIAL CENTER IN LEXINGTON.

REGARDLESS OF THE SEVERITY OF YOUR OFFENSE.

IF YOU WERE CHARGED WITH SHOOTING SOMEBODY OR WHETHER YOU WERE CHANDLER WITH A VERY MINOR OFFENSE LIKE HABITUAL TRUANCY, SO YOU WERE LUMPING EVERYTHING TOGETHER.

FURTHERMORE THEY WERE PUTTING THE BOYS AND GIRLS TOGETHER.

THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN IN SEPARATE WINGS BUT THEY WERE IN THE SAME BUILDING.

AND AS WE SAW FROM THE SEXUAL ASSAULT IN ADAIR THAT WAS DISASTROUS.

SO WHAT GOVERNOR BESHEAR SAID, AND A THOUGHT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT THIS WAS LONG OVERDUE, WAS LET'S MOVE THEM PARDON THE MOST SEVERE CASES WILL GO TO THESE RESIDENTIAL CENTERS.

THE LEAST SEVERE CASES WILL GO TO THESE CENTERS.

THE GIRLS WILL GO TO THEIR ENTIRELY OWN DETENTION CENTER UP IN CAMPBELL COUNTY AND WE'LL SEGREGATED THEM FROM THE BOYS.

>> YOU'VE DONE EXTENSIVE REPORTING ON THIS.

FROM YOUR REPORTING WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD HELP IMPROVE THE END SYSTEM?

>> John: MOON EVEN MORE MONEY.

I KNOW EVERYONE SAYS YOU SHOULDN'T JUST THROW MONEY AT A PROBLEM, BUT SO MUCH OF GOVERNMENT OVER THE LAST 25 YEARS HAS BEEN UNDERFUNDED.

SO MANY STATE EMPLOYEES HAS SEEN THEIR PAYCHECKS SHRINK COMPARED TO THE REST OF SOCIETY.

AND OBVIOUSLY 35 TO $45,000 A YEAR FOR A STARTING SALARY IS NOT ENOUGH TO GET PEOPLE TO APPLY FORE A JOB AT A JUVENILE JUSTICE CENTER, AND I SHOULD ADD THE SAME IS TRUE FOR ADULT CORRECTIONS OF THE STATE PRISONS.

THEY HAVE A SIMILAR ISSUE.

IT MIGHT BE 50,000 UPPED.

IT MIGHT BE $60,000 A YEAR.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE BUT THE JUSTIN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SAID THEY'RE HAVING JOB FAIRS, BEGGING PEOPLE TO COME WORK FOR THEM, AND ALMOST NOBODY IS APPLYING FOR TO JOBS.

OBVIOUSLY THE MARK MARKETPLACE HAS SPOKEN .

>>> >> Renee: THAT WAS OUR CASEY PARKER-BELL WITH JOHN CHEVES.

YOU MITER HAVE READ THE STORIES HE IS WRITTEN.

I WANT TO GO TO CHAIRMAN WESTERFIELD.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU END SPRIGGS THE.

LET'S HELP OUR AUDIENCE UNDERSTAND THE TERMS WE ARE TALKING WITH TONIGHT BECAUSE WE KNOW THE DEPARTMENT OF JUVENILE JUSTICE.

THERE'S FOUR TIMES.

THERE'S JUVENILE DETENTION CENTERS.

THERE'S YOUTH HOMES.

THERE'S YOUTH DETENTION CENTERS.

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM?

AND IS VOYAGES HAPPENING AT ALL OF THESE PLACES?

>> YOU'VE GOT SORT OF A SPECTRUM.

YOU'VE GOT DETENTION CENTERS, AND WHAT'S TERI WHEN TEST MOST SEVERE OUGHT TO BE DON'T MOST SECURE OUGHT TO BE.

YOU'VE GOT YOUTH DEVELOPMENT CENTERS WHICH IS SORT OF A STEP DOWN.

YOU'VE GOT GROUP HOMES AFTER THAT WHICH MIGHT EVEN CATER TO STILL ANOTHER STEP DOWN BUT MAY CARAT TO YOUNGER KIDS.

AND THEN YOU'VE GOT DAY TREATMENT PROGRAMS WHICH IS COMMUNITY-BASED CARE.

SO YOU HAVE A CONTINUUM OF FACILITIES AND PROGRAMS TO PROVIDE FOR CHILDREN CAUGHT UP IN THE JUVENILE DETENTION CENTER.

I ANT HAVEN'T HEARD FROM PROGRAMS AROUND THE STATE BUT I'VE HEARD OF IT IN JUST ABOUT EVERY STATE AND CERTAINLY IN THE DETENTION CENTERS IN MECHANIC KRACKEN COUNTY WHICH IS WHERE ALL OF US IN CHRISTIAN COUNTY SEND THEIR JUVENILE OFFENDERS.

JUST IN THE LAST MONTH THERE'S BEEN ANOTHER ASSAULT THERE, A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER NOT TWO OR THREE WEEKS AFTER THE TESTIMONY BEFORE THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, THE INTERIM COMMITTEE BACK IN DECEMBER.

WE'VE HEARD OF MULTIPLE BREACHES OF SECURITY THERE AND, OF COURSE, THE ONE IN COLUMBIA IN ADAIR COUNTY WHICH HAS JUST BEEN ATROCIOUS.

BUT WE'VE SEEN THEM AROUND THE STATE.

THEY'RE HAPPENING EVERYWHERE.

THESE BREAKDOWNS.

AND THE SAME MESSAGE KEEPS REVERBERATING FROM THE STAFF.

WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE.

>> SO TERRY BROOKS, I WANT TO GO TO YOU BECAUSE WE'VE HEARD BACK IN OCTOBER, I BELIEVE, IT WAS SECRETARY KERRY HARVEY WHO TESTIFIED WITH COMMISSIONER VICKIE REED ABOUT THE SITUATION IN THESE JUVENILE DETENTION CENTERS, AND THE POINT WAS MADE THAT THE KIDS NOW ARE MORE VIOLENT, THE CRIMES ARE MORE VIOLENT THAN THEY WERE TEN YEARS AGO, MAYBE PERHAPS PRIOR TO SENATE BILL 200.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE VIOLENCE IS ACCURATELY DEPICTED OR ARE WE OVEREXAGGERATING THE LEVEL OF VOYAGES THAT'S HAPPENING IN THESE FACILITIES?

>> I THINK IT'S SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE.

I THINK YOU CERTAINLY SEE DATA AND KNOW INCIDENTS OF VIOLENCE THAT IS OFFENSIVE AND FRIGHTENING TO ALL OF US.

I DON'T KNOW.

I'M NOT SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW WHETHER THE MEDIA WORLD WE LIVE IN TODAY PERHAPS MAKES THAT A BIT MORE HYPERBOLIC.

I THINK IT DOES, IT DOES MAKE US ALL THINK WITNESS AS SNARF WESTERFIELD WAS TALKING ABOUT, THAT WE NEED TO OWN THE MOTION OF CONTINUUM WHEN IT COMES TO JUVENILE JUSTICE.

TEN YEARS AGO YOU AND I TALKED ON THIS SHOW IN "CONNECTIONS" ABOUT THERE WAS NOT A CONTINUUM FOR CHILD WELFARE.

WE WERE IN A SITUATION WHERE WERE YOU FOR ADOPTION RESIDENTIAL CARE?

WERE YOU FOR FOSTER CARE OR KINSHIP CARE?

WE FINALLY, DUE TO THE GOOD WORK OF BOTH THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE, HAVE BUILT A REALLY POSITIVE CONTINUUM OF CHILD WELFARE.

I THINK THAT FOLKS LIKE OUR LAWMAKERS ON THE PANEL TONIGHT, BECAUSE ALL FOUR OF THESE FOLKS ARE GREAT VOICES FOR KIDS, THEY GET THE NEED TO FOCUS NOT JUST ON DETENTION.

MY CONCERN IS THAT ALL WE'RE HEARING IS ABOUT DETENTION CENTERS.

I UNDERSTAND THAT'S A CRISIS.

BUT WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT, AS SENATOR WESTERFIELD ALLUDED TO, WHAT ARE COMMUNITY-BASED DIVERSIONS?

ARE THERE PREVENT MEASURES?

COULD WE CREATIVELY THINK ABOUT INTERDICTIONS?

AND I'M NOTE TALKING ABOUT LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

I'M TALKING ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT WE KNOW THIS KIND OF INTERVENTION IS APPROPRIATE FOR THIS KID BUT NOT THAT KID.

>> SO REPRESENTATIVE NEMES, I WANT TO COME TO YOU ABOUT THAT BECAUSE YOU I THINK CHAIRED THAT COMMITTEE THAT DAY ON THE LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE WHERE WE HAD THOSE STATE OFFICIALS TESTIFY ABOUT THE STATUS OF THE JUVENILE JUSTICE SYSTEM.

WHEN YOU HEAR WHAT MR. BROOKS SAYS ABOUT WE'RE HEARING A LOT ABOUT DETENTION CENTERS BUT ARE WE REALLY PAYING ATTENTION TO THE CONTINUUM OF CARE, WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE?

>> I THINK WE ARE.

I THINK THE REASON WE MADE A LOT OF ATTENTION TO THE DETENTION CENTERS IS TWOFOLD.

NUMBER ONE, THAT'S WHERE THE MAJOR PROBLEMS WERE.

LET'S REMIND OURSELVES HOW THIS CAME TO LIGHT.

WILL WAS A REPORT FROM NATALIA MARTINEZ WHO IS A REPORTER IN LOUISVILLE ABOUT A RITE AND AN ESCAPE IN THE LYNDON FACILITY IN LOUISVILLE.

A NUMBER OF TIMES LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THE FIRE DEPARTMENT WAS CALLED IN, AND WHEN THE FIRE DEPARTMENT WAS CALLED IN FOR AN ARSON, THEY WERE ATTACKED BY SOME JUVENILES, AND THEY MADE THE DECISION WE CAN'T GO IN THERE UNTIL WE KNOW THE FACILITY IS SECURE IN THE FUTURE.

THE MAYOR OF LYNDON, BRENT HAGEN, HAD TO PROTECT HIS 6 AS WELL IN LYNDEN SO HE CALLEDTY MEETING AT THE LINDEN FACILITY AND THINGS HAVE UNRAVELED SINCE THEN.

THE BESHEAR ADMINISTRATION SHUT DOWN THE LYNDEN FACILITY AT LEAST TEMPORARILY TO FIX SOME THINGS.

A LOT OF THE SAME KIDS THAT WERE INVOLVED THE IN RIOT IN LOUISVILLE WERE SENT TO ADAIR COUNTY, AND OBVIOUSLY WE HAD ANOTHER RIOT.

WE HAD ASKED FOR SOME CHANGES AFTER LOUISVILLE AND BEFORE THE ADAIR RIOTS THAT DIDN'T OCCUR, AND THANKFULLY THOSE KINDS OF THINGS ARE OCCURRING NOW.

SO WE'RE HEARING A LOT ABOUT DETENTION CENTERS.

NUMBER ONE, THAT'S WHERE WE'VE HAD RECENTLY LITERALLY FIRES AND RIOTS AND WE SAY SEXUAL ASSAULT BUT IT WAS A RAPE, MULTIPLE INDIVIDUALS ON A YOUNG GIRL THAT SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

BUT THE SECOND REASON IS WE'RE STRUGGLING WITH WE'RE HURTING IN LOUISVILLE.

WE HAVE -- IN 2001 WE HAD 1001 OF OUR JCPS STUDENTS, 101 WERE SHOT 37 MOST OF OUR CITIZENS DON'T KNOW THIS.

NOW, THEY WEREN'T SHOT IN SCHOOL THANKFULLY.

BUT 1016 OUR KIDS WERE SHOT, 24 SHOT AND KILLED.

VIOLENCE IS OUT OF CONTROL.

WHEN YOU TALK 20 LMPD THEY'RE SAYING THAT IT'S LED BY JUVENILES.

SO WE HAVE TO GET THE VIOLENT ELEMENT OUT OF OUR STREETS FOR TWO REASONS.

ONE, TO PROTECT OUR COMMUNITY BUT TO ALSO GRAB THAT AND I HAD AND SAY WEEK HEY, LET'S HELP YOU.

LET'S FIGURE OUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN YOUR LIFE.

HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE, NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT, BUT FIGURE OUT WHAT KIND OF SERVICES WE CAN GET TO THAT PERSON.

>> ARE THOSE KIDS CONNECTED TO GANG ACTIVITY IN ANY WAY?

>> A LOT OF IT IS.

I THINK THE NEW ADMINISTRATION, THE NEW MAYOR IS LOOKING TRUTH IN THE EYE AND HE'S GOING TO BE HOPEFULLY MUCH BETTER THAN THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION WAS WHICH WAS AMISS BAL.

SO I THINK WE'RE IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

BUT THE REASON WE'RE HEARING ABOUT DETENTION CENTERS IS BECAUSE OF THE MAJOR VIOLENCE WE HAVE IN LOUISVILLE LED BY JUVENILES AND BECAUSE WE'RE HAVING RIOTS.

WE HAD TWO STAFF IN ADAIR COUNTY WHO WAS IN ICU FOR OVER A WEEK.

WE'VE GOT -- WE CAN GO ON AND OH AND ON ABOUT THE PARADE OF HORRIBLES.

TOTAL LACK OF LEADERSHIP, NOT ENOUGH STAFF, ALL KIND OF THINGS.

BUT THAT'S THE REASON WE'RE HEARING ABOUT DETENTION.

NOBODY ON THIS PANEL AND I DON'T THINK ANYBODY IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WOULD DISAGREE WITH THE CONTINUUM OF CARE, MAKING SURE THAT WE GET THESE KIDS, OUR KIDS TREATMENT IN A WAY THAT MEETS THEM WHERE THEY ARE.

>> REPRESENTATIVE KULKARNI, I WANT TO GO TO YOU.

EVERYONE HERE HAS ROOTS WITH LOUISVILLE, AND WE KNOW -- AND THEY'RE TAKING A STATEWIDE APPROACH AS LAWMAKERS, BUT I WANT TO HEAR YOU RESPOND TO WHAT YOU HEARD REPRESENTATIVE NEMES HEAR ABOUT THE LEVEL VIOLENCE AND THESE 101 KIDS WHO HAVE BEEN SHOT.

>> YEAH, I THINK THERE'S DEFINITELY AN UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE'S AN INCREASE IN FILMS VIOLENCE.

WE CAN ATTRIBUTE THAT TO A LOT OF THINGS.

THERE'S MAYBE GUN SAFETY IS AN ISSUE.

THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT FACTORS THAT ARE GOING INTO IT.

BUT I WANT TO ADDRESS SOMETHING THAT HE MENTION THAT HAD WE ARE HEARING ABOUT DETENTION BECAUSE, A, THESE INCIDENTS HAPPENED IN A DETENTION FACILITY, BUT REALLY THE REACTIONS THAT WE'RE HEARING ARE ALSO ABOUT DETENTION, SO THE REACTION HAS BEEN WE NEED TO ROUND UP THESE KIDS AND DETAIN THEM AND PUT THEM IN SECURE FACILITIES, AND WE KNOW, STUDY AFTER STUDY, DECADES UPON DECADES OF RESEARCH HAVE SHOWN THAT DETENTION DOES NOT INCREASE PUBLIC SAFETY, IT DOES NOT RESULT IN A DECREASE IN DELINQUENT BEHAVIOR, BUT IT DOES INCREASE EXPONENTIALLY THE AMOUNT OF RE-ARREST AND IS REINCARCERATION THAT YOU SEE IN THESE KIDS, AND CONTROLLING FOR THINGS LIKE THE OFFENSE HISTORY, CONTROLLING FOR THINGS LIKE THEIR INDIVIDUAL BACKGROUNDS, CONFINEMENT IS THE NUMBER ONE FACTOR FOR RECIDIVISM AND WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT BECAUSE ABOUT 80%, AND THIS NUMBER I THINK HAS HELD STEADY, ARE REARRESTED WITHIN TWO OR THREE YEARS OF RELEASE.

SO WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT DETENTION, YOU NEED TO ALSO TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE DON'T HAVE STAFF BECAUSE WE ARE IN A SITUATION WHERE WE CAN'T KEEP THE KIDS IN THE FACILITIES SAFE.

IT'S NOT HELPING THE PUBLIC BE SAFER.

IT'S NOT HELPING OUR COMMUNITIES BE SAFER.

IT'S NOT HELPING THESE KIDS WHEN THEY ARE RELEASED BECAUSE WE'RE NOT OFFERING THEM ANYTHING BY WAY OF REHABILITATION.

>> SO WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE THEN TO DETENTION?

>> I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS NOT HAVE KNEE JERK REACTIONS IN TERMS OF FOCUSING SOLELY ON INCARCERATION AND DETENTION.

WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE ROOT CAUSES OF WHY THESE KIDS ARE ACTING OUT IN THE WAY THEY ARE, WHAT KIND OF TRAUMA THEY'VE EXPERIENCED, WHAT KIND OF BEHAVIORAL SUPPORT THAT THEY NEED.

I THINK WHAT WE ARE HEARING AND SEEING IS A SHIFT AWAY FROM THE CORNERSTONES OF SENATE BILL 200, WHICH THÈ BASICALLY THE THREE FUNDAMENTAL PILLARS WOULD BE YOU TREAT CHILDREN AS CHILDREN, YOU TREAT NEM IN THE COMMUNITIES WHERE THEY LIVE AND THEIR FAMILIES LIVEWHERE YOU CAN, AND YOU PROVIDE THEM, A CREATE OR EXPAND OPPORTUNITIES FOR ADJUST-INVOLVED YOUTH -- JUSTICE INVOLVED YOUTH WHEN THEY ARE GOING TO REENTER THE COMMUNITIES.

AND I THINK ALL WE ARE HEARING ABOUT IS THE REACTION BACK AT THE TIME SUPER PREDATOR, BACK TO THESE JUVENILE ARE ALL VIOLENT.

WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE CAUSES OF WHAT IS MAKING THESE KIDS ACT THE WAY THAT THEY ARE 37 WE NEED TO LOOK AT ALTERNATIVES TO DETENTION.

WE CANNOT FOCUS ALL OF OUR MONEY, ALL OF OUR POLICY MAKING ON DETENTION ALONE.

>> SO JOSH CRAWFORD, I WANT TO ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN ON THIS PROGRAM BEFORE TALKING ABOUT CL JUSTICE IN THE ADULT SPACE, AND I KNOW THAT YOU'RE VERY INVOLVED IN THIS ISSUE AS WELL SUSPECT SO WHEN YOU HEAR WHEN REPRESENTATIVE KULKARNI JUST SAID ABOUT HOW WE REALLY NEED TO LOOK AT CONTINUUM OF CARE AND OTHER ALTERNATIVES TO DETENTION AND INCARCERATION, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> I THINK THE CONTINUUM OF CARE POINT IS AN IMPORTANT ONE.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT BE REHABILITATES A KID, WHAT HELPS A KID TURN THEIR LIFE AROUND THERE ARE BASICALLY FOYER FACTORS THAT ARE REALLY AT PLAY.

IF FIRST IS THE RISK AND NEEDS OF KIDS.

A LOW-RISK OFFENDER IS SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT THAN A HIGH-RISK OF OFFENDER IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY NEED.

THE THE SECOND IS THE TYPE OF PROGRAMMING.

SOME PROGRAMMING WORKS.

SOME PROGRAMMING DOESN'T WORK.

THE PROGRAMMING THAT WORKS, THOUGH, THEN COMES INTO THE NEXT TWO FACTORS.

THE QUALITY OF THAT PROGRAMMING, HOW TRUE IS IT TO THE EVIDENCE-BASED PRACTICES THAT IT'S BASED ON.

AND THEN THE DURATION OF TIME FOR WHICH THAT PROGRAM TAKES PLACE.

ALL OF THE RABBITTIVE RESEARCH, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MEDIUM AND ESPECIALLY HIGH-RISK KIDS, SUGGESTS THAT YOU NEED A MINIMUM OF 200 HOURS OF DIRECT SERVICE WITH A KID TO HAVE A CHANCE AT REHABILITATING THAT KID, NOT WITH HUNDRED HOURS AND YOU'RE GUARANTEED SUCCESS.

200 HOURS TO HAVE A CHANCE TO REALLY TURN THAT KID AROUND WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SERIOUS AND HIGH-RISK.

>> WHAT DOES DIRECT SERVICE MEAN?

>> THAT MEANS DIRECT INTERACTION, THAT MEANS REAL TIME WITH THAT KID IN WHATEVER THE PROGRAM IS, WHETHER IT BE A COGNITIVE BEHAVIORAL THERAPY, DRUG TREATMENT, A SPECIFIC JOBS TYPE PROGRAM.

THE ACTUAL INTERACTION WITH KID IN A MEANFUL WAY.

ONE OF THE KENTUCKY JUSTICE SYSTEM FALLS DRAMATICALLY SHORT IS THAT OFTENTIMES THE BEST PLACE FAR A SERIOUS OFFENDER WHO IS A CHILD AND ALSO HIGH-RISK TO GET THAT KIND OF PROGRAMMING IS IN A SECURE FACILITY BECAUSE IT'S THE ONLY BASE WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO GUARANTEE INTERACTION WITH THAT KID FOR THAT LONG OF A PERIOD OF TIME BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE STRUCTURES AND SUPPORT AROUND THEM TO OTHERWISE DO THAT PROGRAMMING.

BUT WITH THE STAFFING AND THE VIOLENCE THE WAY IT IS, THAT BECOMES NEXT TO IMPOSSIBLE.

SO I THINK THAT JOHN CHEVES IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT INVESTMENT, AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT INVESTMENT ACROSS THE CONTINUUM.

BUT WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE MOST SERIOUS KIDS AND HIGH-RISK OFFENDERS, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TRYING TO DELIVER MEANINGFUL PROGRAMMING IN A SETTING WHERE IT CAN BE.

>>> AND THAT IS OFTEN TIMES GOING TO BE IN A DETENTION CENTER.

>> REPRESENTATIVE HERRON, TALKING TO YOU NOW ABOUT WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE SOME RACIAL DISPARITIES, AND TERRY BROOKS MAY WANT TO COMMENT FURTHER ON THIS AS WELL.

SENATOR WESTERFIELD HAS TALKING ABOUT DISPROPORTIONATELY MINORITY CONTACT AND NOT JUST INCARCERATION AND CONFINEMENT.

BUT TO YOU, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE KIDS IN JEFFERSON COUNTY WHO ARE IN DETENTION FOR SERIOUS OFFENSES, HOW DOES THAT RESONATE WITH YOU?

>> I MEAN, I THINK THAT IT SHOWS A LARGER PICTURE OF THE ISSUES THAT WE HAVE.

CURRENTLY, WITH THE KIDS WHO ARE DETAINED IN JEFFERSON COUNTY, IT'S OVER 80% OF THOSE KIDS ARE BLACK OR YOUTH OF COLOR.

AND THAT HAS NOT -- THAT'S NOT A NEW THING.

YOU SAID DISPROPORTIONATELY MINORITY CONTACT.

I THINK NOW THEY CALL IT RACIAL DISPARITIES OR SOMETHING.

SO WE HAVE ALWAYS HAD THAT ISSUE SINCE DJJ HAS BEEN FOUNDED.

BUT I THINK ONE THING ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION THAT HAS BEEN LEFT OUT, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CONTEXT IS, THAT DJJ HAS APPOINTED EIGHT DIFFERENT COMMISSIONERS SINCE 2008.

AND SIX IN THE LAST -- SIX IN THE LAST SEVEN.

AND SINCE -- SINCE 2012.

AND FROM THAT TIME PERIOD THERE HAS -- THEY HAVEN'T SERVED MORE THAN TWO YEARS.

AND SO I THINK THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN, WHETHER IT'S IN DETENTION OR THROUGH THE CONTINUUM OF CARE, WE HAVE TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THAT DJJ IS CHAOTIC RIGHT NOW.

SO MY BELIEF IS WHAT WE'RE SEEING INSIDE THE DETENTION CENTER IS THE YOUTH ARE RESPONDING TO WHAT THEY'RE COMING INTO.

WE KNOW THAT THE STAFFING ISSUES THAT WE'VE SEEN HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR YEARS.

THERE HAS BEEN REPORTS OF THAT.

AND SO I THINK THAT AS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CONTINUUM OF CARE, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE WHOLE SYSTEM, THE FRONT END, THE POINT OF ARREST GOING THROUGH THE CDW PROGRAM, AND THEN ALSO GOING THROUGH DJJ.

AND SENATOR WESTERFIELD FOR YEARS HAS BEEN TRYING TO PASS A BILL THAT ASSEMBLY SIMPLY COLLECTS DATA.

I THINK IF WE WERE ABLE TO DO THAT ONE THING, THAT WOULD AT LEAST HELP WHEN WE LOOK AT THE NUMBERS OF YOUNG PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO BLACK YOUTH.

>> MR. BROOKS, I'LL LET YOU COMMENT ON THAT.

>> REPRESENTATIVE HERRON HAS IT RIGHT.

TODAY'S CENSUS FOR KIDS FROM JEFFERSON COUNTY REGARDLESS OF WHAT DETENTION FACILITY THEY'RE AT, TODAY THERE ARE 36 KIDS FROM JEFFERSON COUNTY IN DETENTION.

83% OF THOSE KIDS BEING DETAINED ARE BLACK.

SO TO YOUR POINT, THAT IS A POINT IN TIME ILLUSTRATION.

I DO WANT TO SAY, RENEE, THAT WHAT MOST WORRIES ME ABOUT THIS WHOLE, AND YOU I DON'T ENVY THE CHALLENGE BECAUSE OUR LEGISLATOR ARE TRYING TO TRIAGE A CRISIS IN THE DETENTION CENTERS AND YET IN MANY WAYS REINVENT A BROADER SYSTEM.

I THOUGHT A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE.

IT'S NOT.

TWO WEEKS AGO I HAD THE MOST DISTURBING CONVERSATION THAT I HAVE HAD IN MY 18 YEARS AT KYA.

A LAWMAKER AND I WERE HAVING A ENTHUSIASTIC EXCHANGE, AND THE INDIVIDUAL SHARED THAT AMONG THE THINGS THAT MOST BOTHERED HIM WAS THAT I KEPT TALKING ABOUT USING JUVENILE JUSTICE TO GET KIDS BACK ON THE RIGHT TRACK.

THIS INDIVIDUAL INFORMED ME THAT THAT'S NOT WHAT JUVENILE JUSTICE WAS FOR -- JUVENILE JUSTICE WAS FOR.

IT WAS FOR PUNISHMENT.

WELL, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT JASON, WHITTEN, NIMA OR KETURAH AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE MARINATE OF LAWMAKERS, BUT I WOULD RESPECTFULLY SUGGEST THAT UNTIL THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY CHARTS A REALLY CLEAR PATH, JUST WHAT JOSH WAS TALKING ABOUT, HERE'S HOW WE CAN REHABILITATE KIDS, IT'S GOING TO BE TOUGH BECAUSE IF YOU'VE GOT SOME COLLEAGUES WHO ARE INVENTING A SYSTEM OF PUNISHMENT RATHER THAN REHABILITATION, THAT SUPERSEDES THAT TRIAGE VERSUS SYSTEMIC CHANGE.

SO I THINK THAT'S -- I'M STILL SHAKING MY HEAD AND WASN'T ANGRY, I WAS SAD, I WAS SAD TO HEAR THAT KIND OF CONVERSATION COME OUT OF FRANKFORT IN 2023.

>> SO I WANT TO ASK SENATOR WESTERFIELD ABOUT THAT KIND OF CONVERSATION.

IS THERE -- I MEAN, I'VE SEEN SOME COMMITTEE HEARINGS WHERE MAYBE IT'S LEANED THAT WAY, TOWARD PUNISHMENT AND LESS TOWARD CORRECTION AND REHABILITATION.

I MEAN, WHAT'S THE TEMPERATURE IN THE SENATE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS ABOUT THIS?

>> I THINK TERRY'S DESCRIPTION RIGHT NOW IS ACCURATE.

YOU CAN FIND IT AND IT WOULDN'T TAKE MUCH TIME TO FIND IT, BUT I THINK IT'S STILL A MINORITY OPINION, WHICH I'M THANKFUL FOR, BECAUSE I THINK IT'S COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

ONE OF THE THINGS YOU'VE ALREADY HEARD NIMA AND I MENTION, THE RESPONSE TO JUVENILE MISCONDUCT CAN BE SO MUCH MORE IMPACTFUL WITH COMMUNITY-BASED PROGRAMMING AND INTERVENTIONS, THE DIRECT INTERVENTIONS THAT JOSH IS TALKING ABOUT, AND I AGREE THAT THERE ARE INSTANCES WHERE CONFINEMENT IN SOME FORM OR FASHION MIGHT BE THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN SAFELY ADMINISTER TOWS CASKETS, BUT IF YOU ONLY CONFINE WITHOUT HAVING THAT DIRECT INTERVENTION, WHETHER FOR BEHAVIORAL HEALTH OR PSYCHOLOGICAL OR TRAUMATIC ISSUES, WHATEVER, IF YOU IGNORE ALL THE REST OF THAT, YOU'RE MAKING THE PROBLEM FAR WORSE.

AND YOU'RE DOING IT AT A MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE CLIP.

WHEN WE PASSED SENATE BILL 200 WHICH ONLY DEALT WITH THE LOW OFFENSE -- >> STATUS OFFENDERS.

>> STATUS OFFENDERS.

>> WHICH MEANS WHAT TO THE PERSON WATCHING?

>> STATUS OFFENSE IS AN OFFENSE THAT WONT BE A CRIME IF YOU WERE A GREENUP DOING IT.

THE BIGGEST BY FAR AND AWAY, OUR BIGGEST CARTING OF STATUS OFFENDER IN KENTUCKY AND IN MOST OTHER STATES ARE TRUANT KIDS, KIDS THAT JUST MISSED SCHOOL.

IF YOU ARE AN ADULT THAT WOULDN'T BE A CRIME.

YOU COULD JUST MISS.

BECAUSE THEY'RE A KID, WE CALL THAT A STATUS OFFENSE.

BUT WE -- WE HAVE STATUS OFFENDERS U. OFFENDERS AND WE HAVE LOW LEVEL CLASS D FELONIES, AND ALL THAT WAS DEALT WITH WITH SENATE BILL 200.

ONE THING I WILL SAY, I'M VERY PROUD OF THE BILL.

IT'S BEEN WILDLY SUCCESSFUL.

IT'S BEEN USED IN HALF A DOZEN ON MORE STATES AROUND THE COUNTRY, RED AND BLUE STATES AND PURPLE STATES.

WHOLE SECTIONS OF IT HAVE BEEN BORROWED AND I'M TICKLE PINK BECAUSE IT SHOWS THAT DATA CAN INFORM THE POLICIES THAT YOU PURSUE AND BE SUCCESSFUL.

I FEAR, IN FACT I'M TERRIFIED TO SEE WHAT OUR SYSTEM WOULD LOOK LIKE IF WE HADN'T PASSED SENATE BILL 200 BACK IN 2014.

HOW MANY MORE KIDS WOULD BE IN THE SYSTEM?

THE ONE THING IT DID DO, AND THAT IS TO ADDRESS THE RACIAL DISPARITIES THAT WE HAVE.

IF THAT 83 OR 84 PERCENT DOESN'T SHOCK YOUR CONSCIOUS, I DON'T KNOW WHAT CAN.

BETWEEN THAT SORT OF AIRLINE DISPARITY IN OUR SYSTEM, AND THAT'S TODAY -- RACIAL DISPARITY, AND THAT NUMBER IS NOT UNUSUAL, BETWEEN THAT AND THE VIOLENCE ASSAULTS THAT WE'RE HEARING ACROSS THE COMMONWEALTH IN THESE FACILITIES, I'M ALARMED AT WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE AND WHAT HASN'T BEEN DONE FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS NOW IN THE SYSTEM.

I'M WORRIED ABOUT THE FACILITIES THAT WE HAVE.

WE'RE GOING TO GET INTO IT MORE TALKING ABOUT WHAT THE GOVERNOR'S PROPOSALS ARE, BUT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THE LACK OF DIRECTION AND FOCUS THAT'S BEING PUT TOWARDS DJJ RIGHT NOW.

>> BEFORE WE GET INTO THAT CONVERSATION, WE DID CATCH UP WITH REBECCA DELOWER ETO WHICH EVERYBODY AT THIS PANEL KNOWS.

SHE IS A C.F.L.

DEFENSE ATTORNEY AND A JUVENILE ADVOCATE, AND SHE TEACHES AT THE UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY COLLEGE OF LAW.

SHE CAME IN EARLIER TODAY TO TALK WITH ME ABOUT WHAT SHE THINKS ABOUT BESHEAR'S ACTIONS AND IF THEY WILL WORK.

>> I THINK THAT STAFFING IS CLEARLY A PROBLEM WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF JUVENILE JUSTICE, BUT ONCE U.

ONE STEP FURTHER WITH THAT IS A LACK OF TRANSPARENCY.

IF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUVENILE JUSTICE ISN'T TRANSPARENT WITH COURTS AND THE LEGISLATURE, BUT FIRST OFF WITH COURTS AND WITH FAMILIES REGARDING THE CONDITIONS IN THE FACILITIES AND THEIR INABILITY TO ENSURE SAFETY OF EVERYBODY WHO IS THERE, THEN THEY NEED TO COMMUNICATE THAT BECAUSE JUDGES WILL PERFORM DIFFERENTLY WHEN THEY KNOW THAT.

>> SO LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE SOLUTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED BY THE GOVERNOR.

HE MADE SOME ANNOUNCEMENTS A WHILE BACK ABOUT SEPARATING MALES AND FEMALES AND SERIOUS OFFENDS FROM -- OFFENDERS FROM LOWER LEVEL OFFENDS, AND THEN ON THURSDAY HE MADE SOME RECOMMENDATIONS WHEN IT COMES TO DEFENSIVE WEAPONRY THAT YOUTH WORKERS WOULD BE, FOR THE LACK OF A BETTER WORD, ARMED WITH.

YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT WHAT THE GOVERNOR HAS SUGGESTED IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH SOME OF THESE ISSUES WITHIN THESE JUVENILE DETENTION CENTERS.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S IRONIC ABOUT IT IS THAT WHEN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUVENILE JUSTICE HAD ITS FIRST SO-CALLED RIOT AT ADAIR, THEY DIDN'T CALL IN ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT FOR ASSISTANCE, SO IF THEY THOUGHT THAT THEY COULDN'T MANAGE IT AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANY OF THESE SO-CALLED DEFENSIVE WEAPONS, YOU WONDER WHY THEY DIDN'T CALL IN ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT TO ASSIST THEM WHEN THEY COULD HAVE WITH A SIMPLE 911 OR THEY PROBABLY HAVE A BUTTON TO CALL THEM.

>> LET ME INTERRUPT YOU BRIEFLY SO WE CAN HEAR THE SOUND FROM THE GOVERNOR WHEN HE WAS ASKED ABOUT WOULDN'T THESE WEAPONS, COULD THEY NOT BE TURNED ON THE YOUTH WORKERS IF THEY ARE ARMED OR HAVE IT AT THEIR READY, TASERS OR PEPPER SPRAY.

HERE'S WHAT THE GOVERNOR SAID ON THURSDAY.

>> RIGHT NOW WHEN WE HAVE A MAJOR INCIDENT, ALL THEY CAN DO IS LOCK DOWN, POSSIBLY NOT EVEN INTERCEDE WHEN THERE IS A VIOLENT ALTERCATION BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO SO SAFELY AND WAIT FOR THE STATE POLICE OR OTHERS TO ARRIVE, BUT WHEN WE HAVE SOME OF THESE JUVENILES THAT ARE AWAITING SENTENCING ON SUCH SERIOUS CRIMES THAT THEY ARE EITHER GOING TO BE IN A JUVENILE FACILITY OR MOST LIKELY AN ADULT PRISON FOR FIVE, TEN YEARS OR THEIR ENTIRE LIVES, IT IS A CHALLENGE KEEPING ORDER WHEN THEY UNDERSTAND YOU DON'T HAVE DEFENSIVE WEAPONRY AND THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT TACTICS YOU HAVE OR DON'T HAVE TO ESTABLISH THAT ORDER.

>> YOUR RESPONSE.

>> WHEN YOUTH ACT OUT IN FACILITIES OR IN SCHOOLS, THE FACT THAT THERE ARE GOING TO BE TASERS AND PEPPER SPRAY PRESENT DOESN'T ALTER WHAT YOUTH DO.

IN ADDITION, WHAT THE GOVERNOR'S MISSING ARE THE MENTAL HEALTH NEEDS OF THE YOUTH AND THEIR MATURITY OR IMMATURITY SO THAT -- AND BEYOND THAT, A COUPLE OF OTHER REALITIES, WE KNOW AND HAVE BEEN INUNDATED WITH EDUCATION ABOUT TRAUMA INFORMED CARE.

NOTHING THE GOVERNOR SAID ADDRESSED THAT.

WHAT WE KNOW WERE THE CONDITIONS AT ADAIR IS THAT KID WERE LOCKED UP IN THEIR CELLS FOR 24 HOURS A DAY FOR MULTIPLE DAYS IN A ROW.

THEN THEY WERE LET OUT TO TAKE A SHOWER AND THEY DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE TO GET BACK IN THEIR CELLS.

SO THE STENCH IN THE PLACE WAS DESCRIBED BY WORKERS WHO QUIT SHORTLY BEFORE THIS SO-CALLED RIOT AND THE MENTAL HEALTH DETERIORATION OF YOUTH WHO ARE -- WHO WERE PRESENT THERE WAS DESCRIBED BY WORKERS, DJJ WORKERS.

SO TO THINK THAT THIS SOLVES THE PROBLEM IS IN ERROR.

>> WHAT SHOULD LAWMAKERS WHO ARE GOING TO AFFECT THIS ISSUE UP IN THE DAYS REGIONAL IN THE KENTUCKY GENERAL ASSEMBLY, WHAT SOLUTIONS SHOULD RISE TO THE TOPSOME.

>> SO FIRST I WOULD COMPLETELY REMOVE, NOT CREATE ANOTHER FACILITY, NOT SEQUESTER STATUS OFFENDERS AND LOW LEVEL PROBATION VIOLATERS OVER INTO THIS OR THAT DJJ FACILITY.

I WOULDN'T DO THAT.

I WOULD SHIFT THEM OVER INTO THE ORGANIZED FOSTER CARE SYSTEM WE HAVE IF JUDGES WANT TO REMOVE THEM FROM THEIR HOME.

JUDGES ALSO HAVE ANKLE MONITORS, THEY HAVE OTHER THINGS THEY COULD DO FOR THOSE YOUTH, BUT TAKE AWAY CELL PHONES, HAVE OTHER TYPES OF RESPONSES.

AND THEN I THINK WE HAVE TO PROVIDE MENTAL HEALTH CARE, TRAUMA INFORMED CARE TO THE YOUTH WE CONTINUE TO HOLD IN THE FACILITIES, AND THEN WE HAVE TO RETURN.

SO WE SAY WE'RE RAISING THE PAY TO 50,000 FORWARDS ENTRY LEVEL WORKERS, THEN LET'S GO BACK TO JEFFERSON COUNTY.

LET'S TAKE THOSE YOUTH THAT WERE IN ADAIR, THAT ARE FROM LOUISVILLE, AND LET'S BRING THEM BACK TO LOUISVILLE.

LET'S HIRE WORKERS IN LOUISVILLE.

LET'S OPEN THE FACILITY THERE.

THEIR ATTORNEYS WILL MAKE SURE THEY'RE TREAT WELL.

THEIR FAMILIES WILL HAVE CONNECTIONS WITH THEM.

EVERYTHING CAN BE PROCESSED MORE EASILY.

I MEAN, RIGHT NOW THE PUBLIC DEFENDER'S OFFICE HAS ENOUGH TROUBLE STAFFING ITS OWN PEOPLE BUT THEN TO TELL THEM THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIND THE TIME TO DRIVE THREE HOURS TO A FACILITY, IT DOESN'T HAPPEN, AND THEY CAN'T ACHIEVE IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, THEN YOU SAY WE CAN HAVE ZOOM CALLS.

REALLY?

THAT'S EFFECTIVE AND THAT'S CONFIDENTIAL?

LAWYERS DON'T FIND IT EITHER EFFECTIVE OR CONFIDENTIAL.

JUDGES HAVE CONCERNS.

THEY DON'T WANT -- MANY JUDGES DON'T WANT TO RUN THEIR COURTS BASED ON THAT.

SO THOSE ARE THE THREE STEPS I THINK THEY OUGHT TO BE TAKING.

THEY OUGHT TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE JUDGES AND SAY, LET'S FIGURE OUT -- DJJ COULD HAVE THAT NOW.

THEY COULD HAVE HAD IT IN THE SUMMER.

LET US FIGURE OUT ALTERNATIVE WAYS YOU CAN ADDRESS THE MISBEHAVIOR OF STATUS OFFENDERS AND THE LOW LEVEL PROBATION VIOLATERS.

AND THEN SECONDLY LET'S HAVE A PLAN THAT'S COMPLETELY PERMISSIBLE BY LAW, COMPLETELY APPROPRIATE TO HAVE MENTAL HEALTH, TRAUMA INFORM CARE IN THE FACILITIES.

IF WITH OUR GOING TO HAVE -- WHERE WE LOCK UP THE MORE SERIOUS OFFENDS THAT E. THE JUDGES AREN'T GOING TO FEEL SAFE RELEASING.

AND THEN THIRDLY, MOVE THOSE KIDS BACK TO THEIR HOME COMMUNITIES.

>> SO I WANT TO GO TO YOU, REPRESENTATIVE NEMES FOR YOU TO COMMENT FIRST ABOUT THE GOVERNOR'S CHANGES, AND IF YOU AGREE WITH THOSE AND WHAT YOU HEARD FROM MS. DELORETTO.

>> HI IN MANY WAYS WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE REAL WORLD AND WE'RE CONFLATING EVERYTHING.

NOBODY DISAGREES THAT SCHEID A ROBUST COUNT OF CARE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE DETAIN.

NOBODY DISAGREES.

23409 A SINGLE PERSON.

I'VE NOT TALKED TO ANYBODY WHO SAID IT SHOULD BE PUNISHMENT WHEN THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT DETENSION.

BUT THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF KEEPING OUR KIDS SAFE.

I KNOW IN MY DISTRICT THERE'S A SEVENTH GRADER WHO HAS GOT AN ANKLE MONITOR ON.

HE'S IN SCHOOL CHARGED WITH ROBBERY WITH A DEADLY WEAPON.

SHOULD HE ANYBODY OUR SCHOOLS AROUND OTHER SEVENTH GRADERS?

I DON'T KNOW.

I'LL LET OTHER DECIDE.

BUT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE REAL WORLD HERE.

OF COURSE THESE PEOPLE NEED AN OPPORTUNITY AND THE ABILITY TO PROTECT THEMSELVES AND OTHER KIDS.

WE HAD A GIRL THAT WAS GANG RAPED, AND ONE OF THE EMPLOYEES WAS SITTING THERE IN THE CONTROL ROOM CRYING TO DEATH.

HE DID CALL 911.

HE WAS CRYING BECAUSE HE HEARD THE LITTLE GIRL GETTING GANG RAPED AND HE COULDN'T HELP HER.

SO WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

WHAT ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO DO?

SAY PLEASE AND THANK YOU?

ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO DEFEND THESE OTHER KIDS WITH SPIT BALLS?

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BIG PEOPLE.

YES, YOUTH.

BUT WE HAVE TO PROTECT OUR EMPLOYEES.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, THE OTHER KIDS IN FACILITY.

SO LET'S START TALKING REAL.

WE ALL WANT TO HUG OUR KIDS, GET THEM BACK ON TRACK, HOPEFULLY THEY'RE WONDERFUL CITIZENS IN THE FUTURE.

THAT'S WHAT WE ALL PRAY FOR AND WE ALL STRIVE FOR.

BUT TO SAY THAT THEY CAN'T EVEN HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEFEND THEMSELVES, TO DEFEND OTHERS, I MEAN, WE NEED TO GET REAL HERE BECAUSE THIS ISN'T A REAL CONVERSATION.

>> SO I WANT TO GO TO THIS SIDE.

REPRESENTEDTIVE HERRON.

>> I. I WANT TO SAY I STREE DISAGREE.

ICH WORKED INSIDE A JUVENILE DETENTION CENTER WHERE I'VE WORKED WORKED WITH KIDS WHO ARE ACCUSED OF COMMITTING MURDER, AND WHEN I WORKED THE SOUTH CAROLINA, SOUTH CAROLINA ACTUALLY HAD A PARTNERSHIP CONTRACT WITH MARYLAND, AND MOST OF OUR KIDS WERE FROM BALTIMORE, AND WE HAD VERY -- WE HAD KIDS WHO WERE VERY SERIOUS OFFENDS, AND OFFENDERS AND WE DID NOT WEAR UNIFORMS.

WE DON'T HAVE POLL OWES.

AND WE DID NOT HAVE WEAPONS.

AND IT WAS THE WAY WE TREATED THE KIDS AND INSIDE THE FACILITIES.

I DISAGREE.

I DON'T THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE PEPPER SPRAY AND TASERS INSIDE A FACILITY.

I THINK WHEN THAT HAPPENS WE'RE GOING TO SEE MORE ISSUES AND MORE KIDS GET HURT.

AND I THINK THAT THE THING IS, IS THAT WE ASMAKERS, WE AS THE EXECUTIVE DIDN'T LAWMAKERS, THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, OTHER EXECUTIVE BRANCHES HAS FAILED THIS POPULATION OF YOUNG PEOPLE FOR YEARS, FOR OVER A DECADE, AND I THINK THAT GOING AUTOMATICALLY TO THIS ADULT-TYPE MINDSET IS IS NOT THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

I DO, HOWEVER, DO THINK THAT WE AGREE ON THE CONTINUUM OF CARE, BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT THOSE THINGS BELONG INSIDE OF A FACILITY WHEN YOU'RE TALKING WITH WORKING WITH OUR YOUNG PEOPLE.

AND WE HAVE TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THESE KIDS ARE COMING HOME.

THERE'S VERY FEW OF THESE KIDS WHO MAY NOT COME HOME UNTIL THEY'RE 25 OR 30 YEARS OLD.

MOST OF THOSE KIDS ARE COMING BACK TO OUR STREETS.

>> SO THIS COMMENT FROM HEATHER SPOON WHO LIVES IN ADAIR COUNTY.

SHE SAYS, I AM VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE SUBJECT SITUATION IN ADAIR COUNTY.

RURAL KENTUCKY ISN'T THE PLACE TO SEND OUR STATE'S MOST VIOLENT OFFENDERS.

I BELIEVE IN THE CONCEPT OF KEEPING OUR KIDS LOCAL, CLOSE TO HOME, SO MANY OF THESE KIDS NEED THERAPY AND ACCOUNTABILITY, SOMEONE HOE CARES FOR THEM.

THEY NEED MENTORS AND LOVE.

SO IS IT POSSIBLE FOR TO CONSTRUCT FACILITIES NOT FOR DETENTION BUTTED FOR REHABILITATE THERAPY AND REHAB?

>> I THINK IT IS.

THAT WOULD BE FANTASTIC.

IF WE COULD USE THE FACILITIES THAT WE HAVE TO PROVIDE THAT CARE, I THINKIT WOULD BE GREAT.

NOT EVERY FACILITY NEEDS TO HAVE CONCERTINA WIRE AROUND IT AND A GUARD IN A BOOTH THAT'S RUN LIKE A COUNTY JAIL.

IT DOESN'T ALL NEED TO BE LIKE THAT.

IN FACT I WISH MOST OF THEM WEREN'T.

WE'RE BLOWING PAST THE BIGGER PROBLEM HERE.

I DON'T HAVE AS BIG AN OBJECTION, I'M NOT AS PASSIONATE FOR OR AGAINST THE DEFENSE OF WEAPONRY THAT THE GOVERNOR HAS ALLOWED THEM TO DO.

WE HEARD FROM THE SECRETARY THAT THIS WAS JUST AN EXECUTIVE BRANCH DECISION.

THERE'S NO POLICY THAT PREVENTS HIM.

HE CAN JUST DECIDE TO LET THEM USE THAT.

I THINK IT'S FINE TO LET THEM USE THAT BUT I THINK IT'S GOING TO CREATE A BIGGER PROBLEM UNTIL THEY HAVE MORE PEOPLE IN THERE.

ONE THING THAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM EVERY SINGLE EMPLOYEE, SOME OF WHOM HAVE REACHED OUT TO ME AND OTHER LEGISLATORS, WHETHER WE'RE ON ANY WORK GROUP IN THE COMMITTEE OR NOT, THEY'VE ASKED US OR TOLD US THINGS THAT THEY'VE BEEN REPORTING TO THEIR SUPERIORS, AND THAT MESSAGE ISN'T GETTING THROUGH.

WE HAD COMMISSIONER REED IN FRONT OF INTERIM JUDICIARY COMMITTEE ON DECEMBER 15th TALKING ABOUT MONTHLY REPORTS, AND EVEN SHE'S NOT ACKNOWLEDGING EVERYTHING THAT'S IN THOSE REPORTS THAT CLEARLY, CLEARLY DEMONSTRATE AN AGENCY THAT IS BEREFT OF MORALE, WITH STRUCTURAL AND PHYSICAL PLANT FAILURES AND SHORT COMES AND SHORTED FALLS THAT ARE WAITED, BEGGING FOR THIS SORT OF THING TO.

THEY'RE NOT GETTING COMMISSIONER ET REECE ATTENTION AND ALMOST NONE OF THOSE ARE MAKING TO IT SECRETARY AB TESTIMONY.

ALL OF THOSE FROM MY COMMITTEE OR CHAIRMAN NEMES' COMMITTEE OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST COUPLE MONTHS.

I AM DISTURBED ABOUT THE ONE THING THAT DOES GIVE ME PAUSE WITH THE DEFT WEAPONRY IS THEY STILL DON'T HAVE ADEQUATE PEOPLE THERE.

WE'VE HEARD FROM PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THE REASON SOME OF THESE THINGS ARE HAPPENING IN MCCRACKEN COUNTY AND ADAIR COUNTY AND WE HAVE NIBBLED AROUND THE EDGES OF IT TONIGHT.

THESE KIDS KNOW, AND YOU HEARD REBECCA OR MAYBE JOHN CHEVES SAY THIS, THE KIDS KNOW THAT THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANYBODY THERE.

PART OF JOHN'S REPORTING HAS BEEN THAT THEY'VE BEEN KEEPING THESE KIDS IN LOCKDOWN, REBECCA MENTIONED IT, TOO, FOR 24 HOURS A DAY EXCEPT TO BATHE, AND IN SOCOM CASES THEY'VE BEEN WITHHELD THEIR PRESCRIPTION MEDICINE?

A PREGNANT JUVENILE GIRL THAT'S NOT BEING LET OUT.

THE ONE GIRL THAT HE REPORTED ON THAT'S GOT PSYCHOLOGICAL ISSUES THAT WE CAN'T EVEN -- PSYCHOSIS.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S WRONG WITH HER BUT SHE'S IN HER ROOM NAKED AND THEY'RE NOT TRYING TO ADMINISTER ANY SORT OF HELP OR CARE.

AND THE LEADERS OF THESE FACILITIES ARE SAYING, I WOULD DO SOMETHING BUT I DON'T HAVE THE PEOPLE.

AND THE RIOTS IN MCCRACKEN COUNTY THAT HAVE HAPPENED MULTIPLE TIMES, THE ASSAULT THAT I HEARD ABOUT JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO, AN OFFICER WENT THERE FORE A BUGLE SWAB ON SOME SORT OF SWAB FOR EVIDENCE, I GUESS AND HE GOT ASSAULTED, BEAT UP BY THE KID HE WAS GOING TO GO GET THIS SWAB FROM AND THE STAFF REPORTEDLY JUST STOOD BY AND WATCHED.

>> BECAUSE THEY'RE FOR THE TRAINED?

>> THEY'RE EITHER INADEQUATELY TRAINED, SOME OF THESE STAFF, BLESS THEIR HEARTS, WERE ALLOWED TO SPEED THROUGH AND KIP TRAINING THAT OTHER STAFF YEARS AGO MAY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF WANT SO THEY'RE BAGGY THROWN INTO THE LION'S DEN WITHOUT ADEQUATE PREPARATION OR HEADS-UP ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE ASKED TO DO, AND THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH BACKUP, DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE.

WHEN YOU'RE HAVING TO DETAIN KIDS, AND I'LL REMIND VIEWERS WE WERE TOLD A YEAR AGO THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

COMMISSIONER REED TESTIFIED, WE DON'T DO THAT.

BUT THE MONTHLY REPORTS STAY THAT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY DO.

AND SHE'S HAD TO COME BACK IN AND SAY, YES, THAT'S WHAT THESE MONTHLY REPORTS, IN AN ACT, DO SHOW, THAT WE ARE DETAINING THEM NOT BECAUSE OF A SECURITY ISSUE OR BECAUSE THEY'RE ACTING UP BUT BECAUSE WE'VE GOT NO OTHER PLACE TO PUT THEM AND WE'VE GOT NO OTHER PEOPLE TO WATCH THEM.

WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE ON THE FLOOR AT ONE TIME.

I'M THRILLED THE GOVERNOR IS INCREASING PAY.

I'D GIVE THEM $70,000 IF THAT'S WHAT IT TOOK.

>> YOU'LL HAVE TO FUND IT, RIGHT?

>> THE GOVERNOR CAN FIND THE MONEY AND THE LEGISLATURE BE FIND THE MONEY TOO.

I'M SURE THE GOVERNOR'S GOT 911 SOMEWHERE.

EK FIND THE MONEY FOR.

ONE THING I DO HAVE A HUGE OPPOSITION, AGAIN BACK TO THE DEFENSIVE WEAPONRY, YOU'RE NOTED SOLVING THE WHOLE PROBLEM AND IT'S A BIG PROBLEM BUT YOU CAN'T DO IT HALFWAY.

HE'S FREEZING HIRES IN ONE-HALF OF THE AGENCY TO FUND THESE RAISES FOR ENTRY LEVEL POSITIONS ON THE DETENTION SIDE.

THAT'S GREAT FOR THE DETENTION SIDE.

IT'S A KICK IN THE GUT FOR THESE PEOPLE OVER HERE.

I GOT MESSAGES, MULTIPLE MESSAGES FROM EMPLOYEES, SOME OF WHOM HAVE GOT MASTER'S LEVEL FRANK IN EDUCATION WHO WILL BE MAKING $10,000 A YEAR LESS THAN THE PERSON WITH THE GED WHO CAN FOG A MIRROR AND GO BE A BOUNCER AT A FACILITY.

THAT'S WRONG.

AND YOU'RE GOING TO PUT THIS FIRE OUT AND START THIS ONE AT THE SAME TIME.

>> BUT AS YOU MENTIONED, I MEAN, YOU HAVE THE POWER TO OPEN THE BUDGET.

IN FACT, YOU ALREADY ARE BECAUSE OF THE BOWLING GREEN VETERANS FACILITY THAT'S GOING TO COST $16 MILLION, AND THERE IS A $2 BILLION SURPLUS THAT WILL BE YIELDED BY THE END OF THE BUY END UM.

>> I'M FOR IT, RENEE.

I DON'T KNOW IF WE WILL BUT I'M FOR IT.

I KNOW THE GOVERNOR'S GOT RESOURCES.

>> HE SAID IT'S GOING TO COST TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

>> FIND A ROAD PROJECT THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE BUILT THIS YEAR AND YOU'VE PAID FOR IT RIGHT THERE.

>> I'M WONDERING, THE ONE WORD, AND I HAVEN'T USED IT EITHER SO IT'S NOT JUST MY COLLEAGUES HERE, IS TO THINK ABOUT CREATIVITY.

AND LOCAL CONTEXT.

REPRESENTATIVE NEMES AND I HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS, THAT I KNOW IT'S NOTE POLITICALLY CORRECT TO COMPLIMENT THE BEVIN ADMINISTRATION ON ANYTHING RIGHT NOW, BUT TOWARD THE END OF THAT ADMINISTRATION, THEY CONVENED A GROUP OF LOUISVILLE NON-PROFITS, AND THE SPRIGGS THAT THEY LAID OUT -- VISION THAT THEY LAID OUT WAS EXACTLY WHAT REPRESENTATIVE NEMES NEMES DESCRIBED.

THEY WANT A SAFE CONTAINED FACILITY.

THEY DON'T WANT KIDS RUNNING UP AND DOWN LA GRANGE ROAD IN LYNDEN.

THEY ALSO WANT WHAT REPRESENTATIVE HERRON IS TALKING ABOUT, A TRAUMA INFORMED ATMOSPHERE.

AND EVERY LOCALE IS DIFFERENT SO SENATOR EASTER WOULD HAVE TO TELL US HOW THAT HAPPENED IN WESTERN 63.

LOUISVILLE, FOR INSTANCE, IS BLESSED WITH NON-PROFITS THAT HAVE EXPERIENCE IN LOCKDOWN DETAINED FACILITIES AND EXPERIENCE IN TRAUMA INFORMED CARE, AND I JUST GO DOWN THE LINE.

SO I WONDER IF WE COULDN'T THINK ABOUT KNOWING THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY'S COMMITMENT TO LOCAL CONTROL, IS THERE A WAY TO WHEN APPROPRIATE, THAT'S PROBABLY NOT TRUE EVERYWHERE, BUT IS THERE A WAY TO INVENT A DIFFERENT WAY DOING IT?

IT'S ALSO AN ECONOMIC DEAL.

I MEAN, RIGHT NOW, BY THE JUSTICE CABINET'S ESTIMATE, COST $531.31 A DAY TO KEEP A KID IN DETENTION.

THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY.

COULD WE THINK ABOUT CREATIVE THINGS?

GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

THE LATE BAM CARNEY AND SENATOR MAX WISE AS THEY WERE LOOKING AT SCHOOL RESILIENCY EFFORT DISCOVERED THAT THERE'S A WAY TO PULL DOWN A THREE-TO-ONE MEDICAID MATCH FOR TRAUMA INFORMED CARE.

I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS, BUT HAS -- HAVE WE APPROACHED THE FEDS TO SEE IF WE COULD HAVE A MULTIPLE PLICTIVE FACTOR OF THREE-TO-ONE THAT WOR EVERY DOLLAR WE PUT INTO JUVENILE JUSTICE PROGRAMMING THE FEDS GIVE US THREE DOLLARS?

I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THERE ARE SOME WAYS TO STRETCH DOLLARS AND THERE ARE SOME WAYS TO CREATIVELY THINK ABOUT UNIQUE PROGRAMMING THAT RECOGNIZES REPRESENTATIVE NEMES' LEGIT CONCERNS AND REPRESENTATIVE HERRON'S HONORABLE GOALS, SO I DON'T THINK IT HAS TON AN EITHER/OR.

>> NO, BUT ONE OF THOSE HAS A RETURN ON INVESTMENT THAT IS INCAL KELBY GOOD AND ONE OF THOSE IS A WASTE PUNCH BOUGHT A TEMPORARY SENSE OF SECURITY AND PEACE BY LOCKING A KID UP FOR A WHILE, BUT IF YOU HAVEN'T RESPONDED WITH THOSE SERVICES, WITH THAT PROGRAMMING, YOU'VE WASTED THAT OPPORTUNITY.

THERE'S A QUOTE, RENEE AND YOU'VE HEARD ME A SAY IT.

IT'S EASIER TO BUILD STRONG CHILDREN THAN IT IS TO REPAIR BROKEN MEN.

FREDERICK DOUGLASS.

IT IS THE PERFECT ENCAPSULATION AND REASON BEHIND INVESTING IN THE LIVES OF THESE KIDS.

SOMETIMES THE RESPONSE NEEDS TO BE DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON THE SCENARIO INVOLVED, BUT IT'S WORTH THE INVESTMENT.

WHEREVER THAT MONEY NEEDS TO COME FROM, IT'S WORTH THAT.

>> SO REPRESENTATIVE NEMES, IN THE HOUSE DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ENOUGH WILL TO GO ALONG WITH MAYBE ADDING SOME NECESSARY FUNDING TO HELP THIS CRISIS?

AND HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK IS EVEN NEEDED TO DO IT?

>> I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH IS NEEDED.

WE WOULD ASK THE GOVERNOR FOR THAT.

WE'VE HAD THREE BUDGETS IN THE LAST THREE YEARS.

THIS IS IF GOVERNOR'S FOURTH YEAR.

NOT ONE OF THOSE BUDGETS HAS HE ASKED FOR ADDITIONAL MONEY.

I WISH HE HAD.

WE HAVE ASKED HIM A NUMBER TIMES.

CHAIRMAN PETRI, THE HOUSE OF ADAR ASKED LAST YEAR FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF -- THE JUSTICE CABINET, WHAT'S YOUR ASK?

AND THEY DIDN'T MAKE ANY REQUEST HERE.

>> BUT YOU FUND WITHOUT ACTUALLY THE REQUEST.

>> YOU CAN, THAT'S RIGHT, BUT IF THINGS ARE GOING WELL IN THAT PARTICULAR AREA, THEN OBVIOUSLY WE MOVE OUR ATTENTION TO A DIFFERENT AREA.

LIKE WE DID WITH THE KENTUCKY STATE POLICE, FOR EXAMPLE.

WE GAVE ALL STATE WORKERS AN 8% RAISE.

WE GAVE THE KENTUCKY STATE POLICE IN A DIFFERENT SITUATION BECAUSE THERE WAS A DIFFERENT NEED.

IF THEY SAID THERE I WAS DIFFERENT NEED FOR DJJ, WE CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE COME THROUGH WITH THAT.

SO WE'RE HAVING COMMUNICATIONS WITH SECRETARY HARVEY RIGHT NOW, THE SECRETARY OF JUSTICE.

ON WEDNESDAY HE WILL BE IN FRONT OF A GROUP THAT WE HAVE LOOKING INTO THIS ISSUE.

SO THERE AN APPETITE FOR IT?

YES, IFITES GOING TO SOLVE A PROBLEM I THINK THERE CERTAINLY WOULD BE AN APPETITE.

BUT IT SHOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN TWO RIOTS, A COUPLE OF -- ONE CERTAINLY L. RAPE, MAYBE MORPHONE THAT BECAUSE WE HAVE A SEXUAL ASSAULT THAT IS ALSO BEING LOOKED INTO WITH A YOUNG LADY IN ADAIR COUNTY AS WELL, BUT IT SHOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN THAT TO GET TO WHERE WE ARE.

BUT, OKAY, WHERE WE ARE WHERE.

IS THERE AN APPETITE FOR IT?

IS IF WE HAVE A PLAN, YES.

AS MY FRIEND TERRY SAID, WE HAVE A LOT OF GREAT ORGANIZATIONS IN LOUISVILLE THAT ARE DOING A GREAT JOB.

MARY HURST WHICH IS RIGHT DOWN THE STREET IN MY DISTRICT IS DOING A WONDERFUL JOB WITH NOT IS THE SAME POPULATION BUT A POPULATION WITH SIGNIFICANT TRAUMA.

FAMILY SCHOLAR HOUSE IS DOING A LOT OF GOOD STUFF AND HAVE REALLY GOOD WHITE PAPER ON TRAUMA AND HOW IT.

EFFECTS THE WORLD OF AND SO FORTH AND SO ON.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF GOOD THINGS IN LOUISVILLE.

WHICH IS WHY, THIS LAST POINT, WE HAVE TO BRING A.

>> IT IF IT BACK IN LOUISVILLE.

LOUISVILLE IS 18% OF OUR POPULATION, MUCH HIGHER THAN THE PERCENT OF JUVENILES IN THE SYSTEM ARE FROM JEFFERDS COUNTY.

WE NEED A FACILITY IN LOUISVILLE FOR A NUMBER REASONS.

A LOT OF THE RURAL AREAS, AS THE COMMENTER MENTION, THINK THEY SHOULD STAY IN THE LOUISVILLE AREA.

WE AGREE WITH THAT.

BUT ALSO FOR LAWYERS POP I AM A LAWYER.

I MEAN, I CAN'T DRIVE TO ADAIR.

I DON'T REPRESENT JUVENILES DUTY IF I DID I COULDN'T TRIVE TO ADAIR COUNTY AND ZOOM.

>> AND THE FAMILIES CAN'T VISIT, EITHER.

>> TO THE EXTENT THERE'S ONE, IT'S GOOD TO KEEP THAT CONNECTION.

SO WE NEED A FACILITY BACK IN LOUISVILLE.

AGAIN, THAT WAS ON THE FORMER ADMINISTRATION WHO DUMPED IT ON THE STATE AT THE LAST MINUTE.

HOPEFULLY MAYOR GREENBURGH IS ON THE TEAM WE NEED A FACILITY IN LOUISVILLE, AND I THINK HE IS.

SO WE NEED A FACILITY IN LOUISVILLE.

THAT WOULD SOLVE A LOT OF OUR PROBLEMS.

BUT THE STAFFING ISSUE, GOVERNOR, I KNOW HIS PEOPLE ARE WATCHING, WE REACHED OUT TO HIM, PLEASE MAKE THE REQUEST.

WHAT DO WE NEED TO HAVE THE ADEQUATE STAFFING IN THESE AREAS, IN THESE FACILITIES TO PROTECT OUR YOUTH AND OUR EMPLOYEES.

>> SO WHAT SHOULD THE NUMBERS BE WHEN IT COMES TO STAFFING?

JOSH, THEN I WANT TO COME DO YOU.

IS IT EIGHT-TO-ONE OR DAYTIME AND 16-TO-ONE OR EVENING?

IS THERE A MAGIC RATIO?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I'M SURE THERE'S PROBABLY SOME DATA THAT BACKS UP WHAT THAT RATIO SHOULD BE, BUT THERE'S NOT A FACILITY IN THE STATE THAT I'M AWARE OF OR FAMILIAR WITH THAT IS AT THAT RATIO.

THAT WAS THE CASE A YEAR AND A FEW MONTHS AGO WHEN THE COMMISSIONER TESTIFIED IN FRONT OF THE COMMITTEE.

IT'S STILL THAT CASE TODAY.

>> MR. CRAWFORD, I WANT TO HAVE YOU CHIME IN ABOUT, SO YOU'VE HEARD THE GOVERNOR'S CHANGES.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

AND WHAT WOULD YOU RECOMMEND TO REPRESENTATIVE NEMES AND SENATOR WESTERFIELD AND REPEATTIVE KULKARNI?

>> I THINK TO THIS JUNCTURE WHAT WE HAVE LARGELY TALKED ABOUT AND WHAT'S LARGELY BEEN IS DONE IS THE SORT OF PROVERBIAL MOVING HARES WHICH AROUND ON THE TITANIC.

THERE'S BENEFIT TO RERELATIVE HUMIDITY RECRUITMENT AND RETENTION THROUGH BETTER PAY, BUT WITHOUT A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN TO GET MORE STAFF MEMBERS AND A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN FOR WHAT PROGRAMMING OUGHT TO LOOK LIKE IN THESE FACILITIES, HOW THESE KIDS ARE GOING TO BE TRANSPORTED INTO FACILITIES, THEN YOU'RE NOT EVEN HALFWAY THERE, YOU'RE NOT EVEN HALF-BAKED.

YOU'VE TURNED THE OFTEN ON AND PREPPED SOME -- OVEN ON AND PREPPED SOME INGREDIENTS BUT YOU'RE NOT MAKE BAKING YET.

THE PROBLEM IS THESE ARE KIDS THAT THE STATE IS TAKING CUSTODY OF, AND SO THE PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE WHEN THEIR TAKING CUSTODY OF THAT CHILD IS TO PROTECT THAT CHILD.

THE STATE HAS FAILED THAT TEST MISERABLY IN WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS EVENING.

ON TOP OF THAT YOU WANT THESE KIDS SOME COULD BACK OUT IN A CIVIL SOCIETY BETTER THAN WHEN THEY WENT INTO THAT FACILITY.

THAT'S REMARKABLY CHALLENGING BECAUSE OF THE COMMUNITY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT KIDS WHO HAVE DOWN SOMETHING VERY SERIOUS, WHO COME FROM BACKGROUNDS THAT ARE VERY DIFFICULT, THAT DON'T HAVE OFTENTIMES SPRONG SUPPORT SYSTEMS.

AND SO THE WAY THAT YOU ADDRESS THAT THROUGH MEANINGFUL PROGRAMMING HAS TO BE DONE IN A WAY THAT CARATS TO THE SPECIFIC NEEDSCH THOSE CHILDREN.

AND WHAT I HAVE NOT HEARD TO THIS JUNCTURE IN TERMS OF CHANGES THAT HAVE BEEN MADE IS ANYTHING THAT IS GOING TO ADEQUATELY TWO THAT.

WE ARE MAKING A COUPLE OF SMALL CHANGES HERE, WE'RE MAKING A COUPLE OF SMALL CHANGES HERE.

LOOK, THE MOVING KIDS BASED EVERTED OFFENSE IS A REAL DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD.

THE IDEA IS THAT YOU GET KIDS WHO ARE SIMILARLY SITUATED, YOU CAN CARAT PROGRAMMING TO THEM.

THERE'S SOME BENEFIT IN THAT.

BUT THE REALITY AS SOON AS YOU TAKE A KID OUT OF THE ENVIRONMENT THEY'RE COMFORTABLE IN WHERE MOM CAN DRIVE OVER ON A LUNCH BREAK PERHAPS, WHEN GRANDMA CAN COME OVER, YOU REMOVE THE KID THE FROM COMMUNITY, AND THAT SORT OF RELATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, THAT SORT OF BONDS OF FAMILY ARE WHAT ARE GOING TO HELP THAT KICKED SUCCESSFUL WHEN THEY GET OUT.

AND SO SETTING THAT I HAD CAN YOU PLEASE FOR SUCCESS IS OFTENTIMES GOING TO BE NOT ONLY TO KEEP THE BONDS THAT THEY HAVE BUT STRENGTHEN THE BONDS THAT THEY HAVE WITH COMMUNITY AND FAMILY, AND THAT'S REMARKABLY DIFFICULT WHEN YOU'RE SENDING A BUNCH OF KIDS FROM LOUISVILLE TO ADAIR COUNTY.

>> REPRESENT TEV REPRESENTATIVE KULKARNI WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST?

>> I'M VERY CONCERNED AND I'LL GO BACK TO MY ORIGINAL POINT.

I THINK THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT SOLUTIONS THAT FOCUS ON DETENTION, INCARCERATION ALONE.

I THINK THAT WE CANNOT MOVE PAST, AND I APPLAUD JOSH'S FOCUS ON PROGRAMMING, BUT WITHOUT ADEQUATE STAFF AT THESE FACILITIES, WE ARE SO FAR REMOVED FROM A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT PROGRAMMING AND REHABILITATIVE SERVICES LOOK LIKE.

WE ARE CRISIS AFTER CRISIS JUST REACTING.

WE DO NOT HAVE STAFF TO COME ANYWHERE CLOSE TO MENTAL HEALTH CARE THESE KIDS NEED, THE TRAUMA INFORMED CARE TO THAT THESE KIDS NEED, AND THAT'S IN THE MIDDLE OF THESE CRISES THAT WE ARE ADDRESSING OVER AND OVER AND OVER BECAUSE OF STAFFING.

ONE OF THE THING THAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT IS THAT THE GOVERNOR PROPOSES INCREASING THE SALARIES BY RECLASSIFYING YOUTH WORKERS AS CORRECTIONS OFFICERS AND BUILDING TWO NEW DETENTION FACILITIES AND COLLABORATING MORE CLOSELY WITH KSP AND LAW ENFORCEMENT AND DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS AND FOCUSING ON DEFENSIVE EQUIPMENT AND DEFENSIVE TRAINING, TRAINING ALONG WITH STAFFING, THEY'RE THE TWO MOST CRUCIAL ASPECTS HA WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT BEFORE WE MOVE PAST INTO ANY OTHER CONVERSATION.

AND WE'RE LOOKING AT TRAINING FOR DEFENSIVE TACTICS.

WE'RE LOOKING AT SECURITY-BASED TRAINING.

WE ARE NOT LOOKING AT WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT WHICH IS STAFFING ADEQUATE -- HAVING ADEQUATE STAFF TO ADDRESS THE NEEDS THAT THESE CHILDREN ARE FACING EVERY SINGLE DAY INSTEAD OF TALKING ABOUT DETENTION AND INCARCERATION AND HOW DO WE SECURE FACILITIES WITH NO THOUGHT WHATSOEVER TO THE STAFF THAT WE'RE GOING TO NEED FOR THESE TWO FACILITIES, NO THOUGHT TO THE TRAINING AND WHAT KIND OF MESSAGE WE'RE SENDING TO THE KIDS AND THE FAMILIES THAT ARE ALREADY TRUMAN ADVERTISED AND HAVE BEEN RETRAUMATIZED BY DJJ BY BEING IN OUR FACILITIES.

WE'RE TELLING THEM WE'RE NO HERE TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS.

WE'RE DOUBLING DOWN ON EXACTLY WHAT WE HAVE BEEN DOING, AND IN FACT WE'RE GOING TO FOCUS MORE ON THE CORRECTIONS ASPECT OF IT AND CREATE MANY JAILS SO THAT ALL WE'RE DOING IS FACILITATING THE PIPELINE WHERE THESE KIDS ARE GOING TO TO GO FROM JUVENILE DETENTION INTO ADULT PRISON WITH JOR REHABILITATION AND ALL WE'RE GOING TO SEE IS THAT THEY COULDN'T TO BE JUSTICE-INVOLVED INTO THEIR ADULTHOOD, NOT BEING ABLE TO GET JOBS, NOT BEING ABLE TO GET HOUSING, NOT BEING ABLE TO BECOME CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS OF SOCIETY WHEN WE COULD HAVE FOCUSED ON EARLY INVENTION AND MADE SURE THAT IF THEY ARE ABLE TO, ARE DIVERTED AWAY FROM OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.

>> SO AS POLICYMAKERS, AS LAWMAKERS YOU CAN DO THAT BE RIGHT?

SO IS THERE LEGISLATION FORTH COMING THAT WOULD ADDRESS SOME OF THESE VOIDS?

>> YOU SAW BEFORE WE ADJOURNED THE LAST PART OF SESSION, SENATE RESOLUTION 31 CREATED A WORK GROUP.

I BELIEVE -- >> BY FEBRUARY 7th THERE'S SUPPOSED TO BE RECOMMENDATIONS, RIGHT?

>> WE'VE BEEN MEETING.

WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO MEET AND DISCUSS WHAT OPTIONS THERE ARE.

WE'RE DIGGING INTO ALL THE ISSUES THAT WE CAN THAT ARE SET FORTH IN THAT CONCURRENT RESOLUTION, INCLUDING HEARING FROM THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

IT'S MY HOPE THAT WE'LL HEAR SOME DETAILS SOON ABOUT THE QUESTIONS I'VE ASKED ARE THE SAME THING I'VE TALKED ABOUT TONIGHT.

HOW MUCH DO YOU NEED?

TO HIRE THE STAFF THAT YOU NEED?

WHAT DO YOU NEED TO ADDRESS THE PHYSICAL PLANT SHORTCOMINGS YOU HAVE IN YOUR FACILITIES AROUND THE STATE?

WHEN I GET THE CHANCE, I'VE ALREADY SHARED MY CONCERNS THAT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT AGAIN FROM THE GROUND LEVEL STAFF ABOUT THE GOVERNOR'S PROPOSAL.

I THINK IT'S WRONG HEADED AND I THINK IT'S GOING TO CREATE MORE PROBLEMS THAN IT IS SOLVES.

>> BUTTED YOU HEARD COMMISSIONER REEVES SAY AND JOHN CHEVES REIT RARITY THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUVENILE JUSTICE OR THE CABINET WILL HAVE JOBNAIRES AND NO ONE SHOWS UP SO HOW DO THEY SOLVE IS THAT.

>> I THINK RAISING THE PAY IS FINE BUT YOU CAN'T RAISE IT HAD FOR ONE-HALF OF THE AGENCY.

THESE PEOPLE OVER HERE ARE PART OF THE SAME MISSION.

THEY'RE PART OF THAT CONTINUUM OF CARE.

IF YOU'RE -- IF YOU'RE FOCUSED, AND YOU CAN LOOK AT THE WEBSITE FOR DJJ THAT TALKS ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT THAT TREATMENT IS FOR CHILDREN AND GETTING THEM BACK ON THE RIGHT TRACK.

THIS ROOF OR THIS SOLUTION, AS REPRESENTATIVETIVE KULKARNI JUST ARTICULATELY PUT FORWARD, DOESN'T ADDRESS THAT IN A MEANINGFUL WAY.

IT DOESN'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

IT'S DOUBLING DOWN ON WHAT CREATED THE PROBLEM.

AND I THINK IT'S BASS AC WARDS.

I THINK IF WE'RE GOING TO RAISE PAY, AND WE ABSOLUTELY SHOULD RAISE IT FOR THE WHOLE AGENCY.

AGAIN, FIND THE MONEY AND DO THAT.

OTHERWISE, AGAIN, YOU'RE GOING TO PUT THIS FIREIT OUT BY STARTING THIS ONE OVER HERE.

AND THEN START FOCUSING ON AS SOON AS YOU HAVE ADEQUATE STAFF, WHICH IS THE FIRST EMERGENT THING WE'VE GOT TO SECURE, THEN STARTS DOUBLING DOWN OH E. ON THE RESOURCES AND PROGRAMMING 1 THE MENTAL HEALTH INTENTIONS FOR THESE CHILDREN AND START A ADAIR COUNTY AND MCCRACKEN COUNTY AND PLACES WHERE THE POPULATION IS THE HIGHEST, AND POPULATION OF THESE FACILITIES NOT VERY HIGH.

IT'S TYPICALLY PRETTY LOW.

THE ADAIR COUNTY FACILITY HAS 20 KIDS KNITTED MAYBE RIGHT NOW, SOMETHING LIKE THAT, 20 OR 30.

I MIGHT BE WRONG ABOUT THAT.

AND IT FLUCTUATES.

SO WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT A HUGE NUMBER OF KIDS.

MCCRACKEN COUNTY, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TODAY'S TOPLATION CENSUS COUNT IS, BUT THEY STILL DON'T HAVE ADEQUATE PEOPLE THERE TO DO WHAT YOU JUST HEARD SAY, WHAT JOSH MENTIONED, THE FIRST THING WE'VE GOT TO DO IS KEEP THE KIDS SAFE AND WE WANT THEM TO BE BETTER THAN THEY WERE GOING IN WHEN THEY COME OUT, AND WE DON'T HAVE THE PEOPLE TO DO THAT.

>> AND THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE, DO THEY HAVE THE QUALIFICATIONS TO BE THERE?

WHAT ARE THE QUALIFICATIONS?

>> YOU MAY NOT NEED TO HAVE EMPLOYEES DO ALL THAT STUFF.

THERE'S CONTRACTOR'S.

THE VOA DOES THIS TYPE OF THING.

>> VOA STANDS FOR?

>> VOLUNTEERS OF AMERICA.

>> THEY HAVE THIS TRAUMA-FOCUSED COUNSELING.

SO OMITTED BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT AS TERRY MENTION EARLIER.

I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION IS BUT OBVIOUSLY THERE NEEDS TO BE SOMETHING, AND IT NEEDS TO BE SOMETHING SOON.

AND WE ALSO HAVE TO MAKE SURE, AND I KNOW TIME IS LOW, WE ALSO HAVE TO GET FAMILIES IN THE GAME HERE.

AND THAT'S ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS I KNOW WHEN I'M TALKING ABOUT PRESENTIVE BRATCHER'S BILL, THAT'S ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT HIS BILL, THAT IS, IF A CHILD WHO IS OUT ON A CA-B DID:W OR WORKERS PROGRAM IS NOT GOING TO SCHOOL OR GETTING WORK OR ANCHOR TRAINING OR WHATEVER THEY HAVE TO DO, THEN THE PARENT COMES BEFORE THE JUDGE IF THEY'RE PART OF THE OBSTACLE AND THE PARENT HAS SOME SKIN IN THE GAME.

WE'VE GOT TO GET PARENTS' STIN SKIN IN THE GAME FROM THE BEGINNING, EVEN KIDS THAT ARE NOT IN THE SYSTEM.

>> THAT IS A PROBLEM NATIONWIDE.

>> IT IS.

>> AND WE NEED TO ADDRESS IT HERE IN KENTUCKY, AND THAT'S ONE OF THE THING THAT REPRESENTATIVE BRATCHER'S BILL DOES I THINK WELL.

>> WE'LL FOLLOW THAT WHEN YOU GO BACK INTO SESSION FEBRUARY THE 7th, WHICH IS SOON.

WELL, THIS HAS BEEN A GOOD DISCUSSION.

I HOPE OUR VIEWERS HAVE LEARNED A LOT.

I CERTAINLY HAVE.

THIS IS ALL PART OF THE PROCESS IS HAVING THESE VERY CIVIL DISCUSSIONS AND SEE THIS IS THE PLACE WHERE YOU HAVE IT AND THESE ARE THE FOLKS THAT DO IT.

SO MAKES SURE THAT YOU JOIN US EACH WEEK NIGHT.

WE'LL TALKING ABOUT ISSUES LIKE THIS ON "KENTUCKY EDITION" AT 6:30 EVEN, 5:30 CENTRAL, AND JOIN BILL BRYANT IS A TEAM OF WORKING JOURNALISTS TO DISCUSS THE NEWS OF THE WEEK.

JOHN CHEVES WAS JUST ON COMMENT.

ON KENTUCKY LAST FRIDAY SO WE WANT TO MAKE SURE YOU'RE CLUED IN TO WHAT'S HAPPENING IN YOUR STATE AND WITH YOUR FELLOW KENTUCKIANS.

I'M RENEE SHAW.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

TAKE GOOD COMPARE AND I'LLY SEW YOU TOMORROW NIGHT FOR "KENTUCK" " HAVE.