[bright music] - Hello, Nido Qubein.

Welcome to "Side by Side."

My guest today found his love for sports medicine when he worked as an athletic trainer at his high school in Pennsylvania.

He went on to become a neuroscientist, recognized for his groundbreaking research in preventing sports related concussions.

That research earned him the MacArthur Fellowship among many other honors.

Today we'll meet this game changer, Dr. Kevin Guskiewicz.

He's the chancellor of the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill.

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[bright music] [upbeat music] - Dr. Guskiewicz, I'm so glad to have you on "Side by Side" with me.

I've been looking forward to this.

You are the busiest guy I know.

I mean, you are the chancellor of the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, our flagship university in the Tar Hill state.

I don't know how many alumni you have, 300,000, 400,000.

How many employees you have, how many schools you have.

Let's just agree that it is a massive, massive organization to lead.

Are you having fun?

- I'm having a blast, Nido.

It's a wonderful place, a magical place.

The University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, I've been here for 28 years and I love it more and more each day.

- You have a very interesting biography, really.

I mean, you were born in Pennsylvania.

- Latrobe, Pennsylvania.

- [Nido] Where is it again?

- Latrobe, Pennsylvania.

- Latrobe Pennsylvania, where is that?

- It's Southwestern Pennsylvania, the home of Arnold Palmer.

- Okay.

- Mr. Rogers.

- I've been there, yes, yes, yes.

And you were working in a high school early on in your career.

And then you went on to become this highly respected, well-known researcher.

You became a neuroscientist.

You have done extensive research.

You have won more awards and recognitions than I can possibly do on this program, including the MacArthur Fellowship, which is I think well known as the Genius Grant.

Why do they call it the Genius Grant?

- I think the New York Times labeled it that back in the mid to late 80s after they had announced their first few classes back in the early 80s.

But I was very honored to receive the MacArthur back in 2011.

And I tell people that really the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill and our research team, which is a very collaborative team, won the MacArthur that year.

But we've done I think some really important work, groundbreaking work to help improve safety in sport at all levels of play.

And just very fortunate to be in a place like UNT Chapel Hill where they embrace that important work.

- Time magazine, in fact, called you a "game changer" because you have been significant in your work regarding concussions in sports.

We hear a lot about football being an American sport, but a dangerous sport.

What is the latest research on concussions?

How does one recognize it?

What can be done about it?

And does it really have long-term effects that are harmful to human beings?

- Yeah, I think if you look back into the early 90s, in fact, I was working for the Pittsburgh Steelers as an athletic trainer for them in the early 90s before I went to University of Virginia for my doctoral program.

And that's really where I became passionate about sport related concussion because I said, "Why are we returning some of these players into games when they may have sustained a concussion?"

We didn't have good tools in the toolbox for assessing concussion.

It was often described as a hidden injury.

And so when I went to UVA and then eventually to Carolina, we began building better tools for the toolbox, balance tests, cognitive tests, visual test to better identify whether an athlete had a concussion and whether or not they've recovered from it.

- Those are post an occurrence.

- Exactly, post-concussion.

And then tracking their recovery to be sure that we weren't returning them back to play too soon.

Meaning for most of these concussions, you need at least a week to 10 days, if not more to return.

But back in the day, we were returning 'em because we just didn't know any better.

So the science has evolved and the work in the NFL I think has certainly helped.

We began putting accelerometers in the helmets of our players at UNC back, gosh, about 15 years ago now.

And using data to learn.

- What does that do?

- Well, they're accelerometers that they track the location of an impact to the head.

They track the acceleration deceleration.

- Is it attached to the helmet?

- They're inside the helmet.

And so we use that data to determine what the most dangerous plays were in the sport of football.

Found that the kickoff was a very dangerous play 'cause you have 11 players running downfield long distances.

- 11 big players.

- Colliding, exactly.

- Yes.

- And so as a result of that research, we were able to convince the NFL back around 2010, 2011, to change the kickoff rule.

We recommended moving it up five yards, the kickoff, the line of scrimmage for the kickoff.

- Wow, and that made a difference?

- So, we saw more touch backs, meaning that the kicker was kicking it into the end zone.

The player was taking a knee and they'd just start out on the 20, 25 yard.

They moved it up to the 25 yard line to try to incentivize players to take a knee in the end zone, which eliminated these massive collisions.

We reduced concussions by about 45%.

- That's amazing.

- On that one play.

- That's amazing.

- Because of that rule change.

- So that was a lot of fun.

And one of the many ways in which I think we've been able to improve safety in the sport of football.

- Now, the data in that tool that's inside the helmet, is that data that you gather later or is that instantaneous?

- We can capture it in real time, in the moment.

- How do you capture in real time?

- Well, it's run through a radio frequency on a sideline receiver in the computer.

- Immediately?

- Yes.

- As the play is on?

- As the play's happening.

But most often we take the data, we aggregate it, and we can look at an individual player's data.

We can look at position types, et cetera, to help better inform helmet manufacturers or policy makers, as I've already said about changing the rules in football.

And so, it's been a lot of fun.

It's a journey that I have really have enjoyed.

And we've got a great team of researchers at the Gfeller Center in Chapel Hill, and really proud of the work there.

- Your doctorate's in sports medicine.

And you came to Carolina 28 years ago you said?

- Yeah.

- And you were teaching at the time?

- Yes.

- What was your title then?

- So, I was an assistant professor, came to Carolina as a junior faculty member at that time, just hoping I'd get tenured someday.

- Yes.

- And never imagined I'd be in the role that I'm in today.

- But a lot of my work was focused on, I taught within our athletic training sports medicine program and got that program accredited back in the late 90s.

And we're really proud of that.

But then, the research really started to evolve.

I became a center director and department chair and began to build a team.

As you well know, it's about building a team of people that you can trust, that trust you to solve big problems.

And that's what we've been able to do.

- Yeah, and I mean, you have a lot of challenges, Kevin.

We all read about the challenges that large universities, everybody has challenges.

You followed Carol Fault, is that correct?

- Yes.

And she went to USC and bam, no sooner than she got there, that she started dealing with some really major issues that many would claim some ethical misgivings, among some people there.

But a large university like UNC with a ton of employees.

How many faculty ranked do you have at UNC?

- We have about 4,000 faculty.

- [Nido] You have 4,000 faculty.

So do you ever get to speak to all of them at the same time?

- That's not easy.

We have a monthly faculty council meeting.

So these are the elected faculty.

I'm a big believer in shared governance.

And the faculty play a major role.

We have world class faculty at Carolina that I think has helped us to maintain our status as a top five public university in the nation for over 20 consecutive years.

Something we're proud of.

But no, I do enjoy meeting with faculty.

It's not just faculty council meetings but I do have faculty lunches.

I get out and walk campus often times with faculty.

Their voices are important to me as we think about.

- Well, you're popular and well liked that.

I mean, your reputation precedes you.

- [Kevin] Thank you.

- What is the administrative connection between UNC Health system?

It has its own presidents, own operation and UNC, the university.

Are these two independent entities completely?

- That's a great question.

They are two separate entities.

We have a board of trustees at UNC Chapel Hill.

We have a board of directors for UNC Health.

I sit on that board on the executive committee.

- You're a voting member or ex officio?

- I'm a voting member.

- Voting member.

- Yes.

- But the faculty that provide the healthcare within UNC Health are UNC Chapel Hill employees.

- Of course.

- Because they are School of Medicine employees.

- So they are interconnected in that they are faculty members at the school, but they're treating patients generating revenue through UNC Health in their role there.

It's a little bit of a complicated organizational chart, org chart, but one of which has worked really well and we're proud of UNC Health and what they provide through our 14 hospitals across the state of North Carolina.

- So Kevin, how does one build a culture?

How does a chancellor influence the culture of a living organism that is, what, 300 years old?

How old is UNC?

- We will celebrate our 230th.

- And that was the oldest public university in the United States of America?

- It is, it's the first public university in the nation.

On October the 12th coming up, just in a few months, we'll celebrate our 230th birthday.

- You get up in the morning, have your cup of coffee, exercise, et cetera, you're thinking about the day.

You have two kinds of things, the transactional that you've gotta deal with.

Then you have the transformational, how do I as chancellor bring impact that can be lasting in the life of certainly our students?

Three of my four children are proud UN C alumni.

Two of my sons-in-law are proud UNC alumni.

Everybody loves UNC.

Everybody went to UNC, loves UNC.

I'm not speaking for other institutions.

But there is an affinity with, there's a tar heel affinity that is built both in sports and beyond sports.

And how does a chancellor influence the culture of such an organization?

It's easier to do when you have five or 6,000 students.

It's much easier to do in a private institution where you have much more latitude.

It's easier to do when you have four or 500 faculty.

I imagine it's very tough to do when you have 4,000 faculty all intelligent, all doing their thing, all want academic freedom to pursue the projects, to write the books, do the research, teach the classes, et cetera, et cetera.

What is it that you think about when you think about institutional culture?

- We have to be strategic, bold, and student-focused.

I use that line all the time.

I'm a big believer in roadmaps.

Meaning that you have to have a roadmap, a strategic plan to get to- - Well, Carolina Next, you've had a- - Carolina Next.

- You've had a dramatic role, very influential role in designing and shaping the Carolina Next, which is your strategic plan.

- Exactly, I think it's about consistent messaging, and it's getting the deans and the faculty, the centers and institute directors to align to that common plan, roadmap to a destination.

And I said, we have eight major themes, strategic initiatives that are in that plan.

And that's the way in which we are allocating resource to initiatives that align to that planned Carolina Next.

And we're proud of it.

We launched it on January 30th, 2020, just about four or five weeks before the pandemic hit.

But I'm proud of the way that we've stayed true to it.

We are a proudly public university.

I tell folks that we are not only the first of the publics, but I think we are the most public of the publics.

We're passionately public.

And I think it's about ensuring that our community aligns to that.

It's also about emphasizing the importance of collaboration.

You've been on our campus and we have these low stone walls that sort of line the the brick line sidewalks that you traverse as you walk around campus.

And I say that those low stone walls don't just define the physical space of our campus, but I really believe that they sort of define who we are as our culture.

- Open, giving, welcoming.

- These low stone walls, we want people to cross them.

And we wanna solve the grand challenges of our time in an interdisciplinary way, a team-based approach to solving problems.

So we're a $1.2 billion a year research enterprise.

And we've moved up to we're in the top 10 in the country in that regard.

And we're proud of that.

And that happens I think in what I call a uniquely Carolina way, in that we solve these problems through collaboration.

And I think that's strong.

I think it's important that the chancellor, that our deans and others are consistently messaging that.

- You don't have time, but do you still in any way practice sports medicine?

- So I am still active in our research program.

- Can you be with a patient?

- No.

- I have a little pain right in this shoulder.

I wondered if you could... - You probably don't want me treating your shoulder Nido.

But no, I'm still involved in several of our research projects helping to write our research papers.

And really proud of the team that we've been able to build there.

We've got Dr. Jason Mahalik, Dr. John a register, Mahala, two of my former students who are now there helping to lead that effort alongside several other faculty and postdocs and graduate students.

But the joke is they still allow me into the laboratory as long as I don't touch any of the equipment.

[both laughs] - We don't have any malpractice involved yet.

- That's right, but no, we've got a great team there.

And I still am involved.

I just was talking last week with a friend of mine at the NFL that I worked with for a while.

Whenever I was on the NFL's concussion committee.

And we have a collaboration on a big project with the NFL looking at retired NFL players.

'Cause you asked earlier about the long-term effects.

And this is a seven year prospective study looking at about 300 former NFL players that we're bringing to campus here at UNC, at Chapel Hill, at Medical College of Wisconsin, and at Harvard.

So it's a multi-center study.

And so I'm very involved with that work so that we can better understand what the long-term effects are of repetitive concussion, repetitive sub-concussive impacts, and who may be more predisposed to neurodegenerative disease and who may be more protected from it.

- So Kevin, I want to ask you several questions that I think is on the minds of many of our viewers and just gimme quick answers on 'em.

Let's begin with the fact that the most recent research about American opinion, about the value of higher education has diminished now to 38% saying, higher education is very, very valuable.

Now, that's a general study.

This is not about any one university, but that has declined by about 20, 25 points over time.

Part of it, I think it's societal chatter.

Part of it is media encouragement.

Part of it is people writing books to stir things up.

And part of it it may be deserved.

What is your view about how America at large gonna have a greater perception about the appreciated value that institution of higher education actually provides in a lasting and sustainable manner to prepare the future leaders of this country?

- We have to reassure people that this is our future.

That we are preparing the next generation of leaders.

We have to reassure a society that there's a great return on investment.

We're very fortunate at UNC Chapel Hill that we're part of the UNC system that is supported in a very significant way by the general assembly, probably better than just about any other state in the country.

There may be two or three others that are comparable.

And we gotta be sure that we're keeping those graduates working in the state of North Carolina as much as possible, that we are preparing them to be active participants in a thriving democracy.

It's why some of our coursework now and programs are around public discourse and preparing students to be able to learn how to have civil discourse and to solve the grand challenges of our time in a thoughtful way where viewpoint diversity is so important.

That's how you prepare the next generation of leaders.

It's about engaging them in research early on.

We are proud that, I don't know the exact percentage, but more than 50% of our undergraduate students, they get a directed research experience alongside our world class faculty and our graduate students.

And that's putting them on the trajectory for wanting to solve big problems.

- So UNC is a very affordable school for North Carolinians.

UNC could be multiples of charges in tuition.

In my book, it's a big, big bargain.

And I believe people appreciate and understand it, but affordability is a big issue 'cause you cannot accept every student.

You get 60,000 or so application for your freshman class.

You take four or 5,000 of them and the others have to find another place to go to school.

You have one hand tied behind your back.

My words not yours.

That you can only take a very small percentage from outside the state.

So I think it's 17%.

- 18%.

- 18%, which denies you, again, my opinion.

Denies you revenue that you could bring from other places then.

And denies you also talent.

A diversity of talent that can come from border to border, coast to coast and countries beyond.

The issue of affordability is a challenge for every university.

How is UNC dealing with that?

- We have kept tuition flat for seven consecutive years.

- How much is it now like 7,000, 8,000?

- It's about $9,000.

- $9,000.

- For tuition and fees.

And then there's room and board obviously.

We're proud of that.

We want to be as affordable as possible.

We want our students to graduate as debt free as possible.

And this is a decision that collectively the board of governors has made and decided.

- I don't know how you do that.

I mean, I really don't.

If you do multiples on it, the support that a public university today gets from legislature by definition has been reduced.

So you have to raise a lot of money to offset all of that.

And it makes it a challenging task.

What is it you stay up at not worrying about?

- Well, right now, I mean obviously the recruitment and retention of our world class faculty is important.

- [Nido] And that takes money.

- It does, our devoted staff.

- Because it's a competitive sphere.

- It is and coming outta the pandemic, as you well know, there was a workforce shortage.

And we lost some incredible talent within our workforce that had the opportunity to work remotely from industry.

And so we've been working really hard on that and re-imagining the work force at Carolina and the way in which we can provide some of that flexibility while still maintaining the quality that we need.

Outside of that, I worry about mental health, mental health challenges of our students.

- More than ever.

- More than ever, Anido.

This was a crisis that was developing pre pandemic and then you bring Covid into this and it's exacerbated the challenges that we see.

So we've been devoting a lot of attention to that.

- Loneliness, self-esteem, being completely devoid of relationships and fellowship.

All of which we need as Maslow taught us all, we need this belonging sense to our community.

So, Kevin, we don't have time to go into details, but everybody knows that you have had to deal with some tough issues.

- [Kevin] Yeah.

- And I think most people acknowledge that a chancellor does not have his fingers on every single thing every person does every day in every department.

And yet the chancellor is held responsible.

- [Kevin] Yeah.

- And every word the chancellor speaks is quoted or misquoted and therefore interpreted by many in their own way, using their own frame of reference.

Just on a personal level, when you go home and talk to your wife.

You have a wonderful family, great kids, what is it you say to her, really?

"This is one tough day, I'm glad I did this work 'cause I love to be beaten up once in a while."

Or, "Gosh, I need to move on to something else."

Or, "People are just not fair."

What is it that you say to her?

- Well, I have a wonderful wife.

Amy's a great sounding board for me.

And we're committed to the work, it's a partnership, as you know.

And so she helps me to think through some things how I might wanna respond and react.

And to me it's always just about that.

Don't overreact, don't show your emotion in the moment.

Sometimes step back and reflect on the situation and think about how you may want to respond to that the next day.

I do believe that you have to have thick skin in these jobs.

There is no question.

You have to be able to put your head on the pillow each night, get a good night's sleep 'cause tomorrow comes quickly.

But you have to do that knowing that you made the best decision you could.

- [Nido] Fair and just.

- Fair and just with the information you have.

I wrote a piece at one point about the art and science of leadership.

And I talked about the same way in which I conducted my concussion research in a data-driven approach, a hypothesis driven approach that good leaders, I think lead in the same way.

And it's the way you surround yourself with the best people, the best methodology to solve a problem.

You gather the data, you analyze it, you make a decision, and you go with it.

And that's what I do.

I put my head on the pillow every night knowing I made the best decision with the best information available.

- And that's all you can do.

You only can do your very best.

Communicate and connect with people in the best way you can.

Interpret and inform, involve and inspire.

And at the end of it, I think most people understand the pressure that a university leader today, especially a chancellor of a flagship university, feels.

Kevin Guskiewicz, I gotta tell you, I can speak to you for hours because I'm frustrated the time is up.

But thank you for being with me on "Side by Side."

- Nido, thank you for having me.

And we'll continue to be strategic, bold and student-focused.

[bright music] - [Announcer] Funding for "Side by Side" with Nido Qubein is made possible by.

- [Narrator 1] We started small, just 30 people in a small town in Wisconsin.

75 years later, we employ more Americans than any other furniture brand.

But none of that would've been possible without you.

Ashley, this is home.

- [Narrator 2] For 60 years, the Budd Group has been a company of excellence, providing facility services to customers, opportunities for employees and support to our communities.

The Budd Group, great people, smart service.

- [Narrator 3] Coca-Cola Consolidated is honored to make and serve 300 brands and flavors locally thanks to our teammates.

We are Coca-Cola Consolidated, your local bottler.