"ALMANAC" IS A PRODUCTION OF TWIN CITIES PBS FOR THE STATIONS OF MINNESOTA PUBLIC TELEVISION ASSOCIATION.

>> CATHY: THE UPCOMING HOUR IS DEVOTED TO THE END OF THE DEREK CHAUVIN TRIAL AND THE START OF THE LEGAL ACTIONS AGAINST KIM POTTER FOR THE POLICE KILLING OF DAUNTE WRIGHT.

WE'LL HEAR LEGAL ANALYSIS AND COMMUNITY REACTION.

PLUS, MARY LAHAMMER IS COVERING HOW THE ISSUE IS REVERBERATING AT THE STATE CAPITOL.

>> Mary: LAWMAKERS ARE AGAIN MOVING LEGISLATION ON POLICE REFORM AFTER ANOTHER DEATH OF A BLACK MAN IN MINNESOTA.

>> I'M TIRED OF SEEING BLACK BODIES LAYING ON THE GROUND.

BLACK PEOPLE DYING HERE IN THIS STATE.

>> Mary: THE STORY, THAT'S COMING UP ON" ALMANAC."

♪♪♪ >> "ALMANAC" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY MEMBERS OF THIS PUBLIC TELEVISION STATION.

SUPPORT IS ALSO PROVIDED BY... GREAT RIVER ENERGY: PROVIDING ELECTRICITY AND RELATED SERVICES TO 28 CO-OPS IN MINNESOTA.

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MORE AT ENBRIDGE.COM/LINE3US.

AND EDUCATION MINNESOTA: THE VOICE FOR PROFESSIONAL EDUCATORS AND STUDENTS THROUGHOUT THE STATE.

MORE AT EDUCATIONMINNESOTA.ORG.

>> CATHY: THE KILLING OF DUANTE WRIGHT ON SUNDAY AFTERNOON ON A STREET IN BROOKLYN CENTER ADDED TO THE INTENSE GLOBAL SPOTLIGHT FOCUSED ON THE TWIN CITIES.

WE'LL DEVOTE THE NEXT HOUR ON HOW THIS LATEST POLICE KILLING HAS REVERBERATED ACROSS OUR REGION.

WE'LL EXPLORE THE LEGAL, THE POLITICAL, AND THE MORAL ISSUES RAISED BY DAUNTE WRIGHT'S VIOLENT DEATH.

>> ERIC: OF COURSE, THIS LATEST KILLING CAME DURING THE FINAL WEEK OF TESTIMONY IN THE TRIAL OF DEREK CHAUVIN, FACING MURDER AND MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES FOR THE DEATH OF GEORGE FLOYD LAST MAY.

THIS WEEK, THE DEFENSE MADE ITS CASE TO THE JURY, WHO ALSO HEARD DEREK CHAUVIN SAY THAT HE WOULD NOT TESTIFY ON HIS OWN BEHALF.

>> Mr. CHAUVIN, YOU AND I HAVE HAD SEVERAL DISCUSSIONS THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF MY REPRESENTATION OF YOU RELEVANT TO YOUR RIGHT TO TESTIFY, OR TO CHOOSE TO REMAIN SILENT, CORRECT?

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

>> AND DURING THE COURSE OF OUR REPRESENTATION, IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT YOU AND I HAVE HAD THIS CONVERSATION MULTIPLE TIMES, CORRECT?

>> CORRECT.

>> YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IF YOU WERE CROSS-EXAMINED BY THE STATE, WE COULD NOT ATTEMPT TO LIMIT THE SCOPE OF YOUR TESTIMONY, THE STATE WOULD BE GIVEN BROAD LATITUDE TO ASK YOU QUESTIONS.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

>> YES.

>> WE'VE HAD THIS CONVERSATION REPEATEDLY, CORRECT?

>> CORRECT.

>> I HAVE REPEATEDLY ADVISED YOU THAT THIS IS YOUR DECISION AND YOUR DECISION ALONE, RIGHT?

>> CORRECT.

>> HAVE YOU MADE A DECISION TODAY WHETHER YOU INTEND TO TESTIFY OR WHETHER YOU INTEND TO VEHICLE YOUR FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE?

>> I WILL INVOKE MY IF I HAVE THEY AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE TODAY.

>> THE DECISION WHETHER OR NOT TO TESTIFY IS ENTIRELY YOURS.

IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S A PERSONAL RIGHT.

Mr. NELSON MAKES A LOT OF THE DECISIONS IN TRIAL BUT ONE HE CANNOT MAKE FOR YOU IS WHETHER OR NOT YOU TESTIFY.

AND HE CAN GIVE YOU VOICE AND YOU CAN TAKE THAT ADVICE OR REJECT THAT ADVICE.

BUT THE DECISION ULTIMATELY HAS TO BE YOURS AND NOT HIS.

IS THIS YOUR DECISION NOT TO TESTIFY?

>> IT IS, YOUR HONOR.

>> ALL RIGHT.

DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT YOUR RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT OR TO TESTIFY IN YOUR OWN BEHALF?

>> NOT AT THIS TIME, I DON'T.

>> ERIC: JOINING US ONCE MORE TO TALK ABOUT THE CHAUVIN TRIAL, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA LAW SCHOOL PROFESSOR AND FORMER HENNEPIN COUNTY CHIEF PUBLIC DEFENDER MARY MORIARTY.

MARY, ON THE EXCHANGE BETWEEN CHAUVIN AND HIS LAWYER, THEY DID THE DECISION NOT TO TESTIFY WAS NOT AN OPEN-AND-SHUT CASE, MAYBE THERE WAS SOME DISAGREEMENTS OR WHAT DID YOU MAKE FROM SEEING THAT CLIP?

>> NO, THAT WAS JUST MAKING A RECORD.

IT IS -- AS THE YOU BELIEVE EMPHASIZED, THAT IS A DECISION THAT IS THE ACCUSED.

CERTAINLY IT'S MADE IN CONSULTATION WITH HIS LAWYER BUT IT IS HIS OWN CHOICE, AND BY MAKING THAT RECORD, THE JUDGE AND DEFENSE COUNSEL WERE JUST WALKING HIM THROUGH THE FACT THAT IT IS HIS RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, THE CONVERSATION STARTED A LONG TIME AGO, I'M SURE.

THEY PROBABLY HAD PREPARED CHAUVIN, THEY PROBABLY DID A MOCK CROSS-EXAMINATION.

THAT CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAVE WITH YOUR CLIENT IS ABOUT WHETHER YOU CAN ADD ANYTHING TO THE CASE.

YOU ALSO HEARD DEFERENCE COUNSEL TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE WOULD BE SUBJECT TO CROSS EXAMINATION, AND HE'S BEEN ABLE TO SEE HOW EFFECTIVE THE STATE HAS BEEN IN CROSS-EXAMING THEIR OWN WITNESSES SO HE NUGGETTING UP ON THE STAND, HE WOULD OPEN HIMSELF UP TO THAT.

SO IT'S ALWAYS A DECISION THAT'S MADE WHEN THE STATE'S CASE IS FINISHED AND THE DEFENSE CASE IS FINISHED SO THERE WAS NOTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THAT.

>> Cathy: SOUNDS, THOUGH, THAT AS YOU DESCRIBE IT, MARY, YOU THINK THAT MAYBE Mr. CHAUVIN MADE THE RIGHT DECISION TO TAKE THE FIFTH?

>> I AGREE WITH THAT.

I DID NOT THINK HE WOULD TESTIFY.

AS I MENTIONED, YOU MAKE THE DECISION FOR THREE REASONS, ONE OF THREE REASONS.

YOU CAN ADD SOMETHING TO THE CASE, EITHER BY TALKING ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE THINKING OR WHAT YOU DID.

YOU CAN ADD SOMETHING TO THE CASE BY EXPRESSING SOME EMOTION, EMPATHY, REMORSE, AND WE REALLY HAVEN'T SEEN HIM HAVE THE CAPABILITY OF DOING THAT, AND MAYBE HE'S NOT CAPABLE, MAYBE HE'S NOT WILLING BUT IN CASES INVOLVING OTHER POLICE OFFICERS, THEY HAVE TESTIFIED, THEY'VE BEEN EMOTIONAL AND REMORSEFUL, AND WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY EMOTION FROM HIM.

AND THE LAST THING IS, YOU KNOW, IF THE CASE IS NOT LOOKING GOOD AT ALL, A CLIENT MIGHT THINK, YOU KNOW, WHY NOT, I'M JUST GOING TO GET UP ON THE STAND AND TAKE MY CHANCES.

BUT REMEMBER THIS TRIAL IS BEING LIFESTREAMED THROUGHOUT THE WORLD AND HE KNEW HE WAS GOING TO BE UP ON THE STAND AND SUBJECT TO CROSS EXAMINATION AND HE MUST NOT JUST HAVE BEEN UP TO HAVE THAT HAPPEN.

>> Eric: MARY, MIGHT SEEM LIKE THE PROSECUTION AS AN AIRTIGHT CASE BUS THIS IS THE TRIAL OF A POLICE OFFICER, AND TO BORROW A PHRASE FROM THE O.J.

TRIAL, JURY NULLIFICATION.

HOW MIGHT THAT COME INTO PLAY HERE, IF AT ALL?

>> I DOUBT JURY NULLIFICATION IS AN ISSUE HERE BUT YOU ARE RIGHT, WITH A JURY, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO.

THE STATE DOES HAVE A REALLY STRONG CASE HERE.

ONE DISADVANTAGE WE HAVE IS THAT WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO SEE THE JURORS, WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO SEE HOW THEY'VE REACTED SO AS I ALWAYS TOLD CLIENTS WHEN THEY ASKED ME, HOW DID I DO IN THE TRIAL?

I DON'T KNOW.

IT'S ROLLING THE DICE.

BUT WHAT I CAN SAY FOR SURE IS THAT THE STATE PUT ON A VERY GOOD CASE.

THE DEFERENCE CASE DIDN'T GO VERY WELL -- THE DEFERENCE CASE DIDN'T GO -- THE DEFENSE CASE DIDN'T GO VERY WELL SO IT'S LOOKING AS THOUGH THE STATE'S CASE IS VERY STRONG.

THERE WERE JURY INSTRUCTIONS PROPOSED BY EACH SIDE, VERY DIFFERENT AND WE DON'T ENTIRELY KNOW WHAT THE JUDGE HAS RULED.

WE DO KNOW THAT THE JUDGE IS NOT GOING TO GIVE AN INSTRUCTION ON USE OF FORCE, 20-20 HINDSIGHT, WHICH IS REALLY A GOOD RULING FOR THE STATE.

THE -- NOT REALLY LOOKING 20-20 HINDSIGHT AT THE ACTIONS OF A POLICE OFFICER IS AN INSTRUCTION THAT WAS GIVEN IN THE YANEZ CASE, IN THE DEATH OF PHILANDO CASTILLE AND THAT IS AN INSTRUCTION THAT GIVES JURORS A LOT OF PROBLEMS BECAUSE THEY FEEL THEY'RE IN A POSITION WHERE THE DEFENSE IS GOING TO ARGUE THIS, THAT IT IS UNFAIR TO SECOND-GUESS THE SPLIT-SECOND DECISIONS THE POLICE OFFICER MADE.

ALTHOUGH IN THIS CASE, THE STATE IS GOING TO ARGUE THERE WAS NOTHING SPLIT-SECOND ABOUT THIS.

CHAUVIN HAD NINE AND A HALF MINUTES AND MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO CHANGE HIS COURSE OF ACTION.

>> Cathy: I'M CURIOUS, IS THERE ANY RULE OF THUMB THAT PROSECUTORS AND, YOU KNOW, AND DEFENSE ATTORNEYS USE WHEN JURY GOES INTO THE ROOM AND THEY START DELIBERATING, IF IT'S, YOU KNOW, IF IT GOES SEVERAL DAYS, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

IS THERE ANY KIND OF ANY FORMULA AT ALL?

>> JUST A LOT OF STRESS AND IF A JURY HAS A QUESTION, WELL, HE'S AMOUNTLIZING, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, AND I SHOULD TELL YOU, THEY'RE DOING A DIFFERENT PROCEDURE HERE.

IF THE JURY HAS A QUESTION, THEY'RE GOING TO DO IT VIA ZOOM SO I'M NOT INSURE THE LAWYERS ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO GET TO SEE THE JURORS.

PEOPLE HAVE VARIOUS IDEAS THAT A QUICK VERDICT WOULD NOT BE GOOD OR WOULD BE GOOD.

I DON'T -- YOU CAN JUST SPEND A LOT OF TIME WORRYING ABOUT THAT.

THERE'S NO REAL RULE OF THUMB.

WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THIS WILL BE PROBABLY THE WORST PART OF THE TRIAL FOR THE LAWYERS BECAUSE YOU JUST SIT AND WAIT AND YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CLOSE BY SO THAT YOU CAN GET THERE IN TIME.

IT IS EXTREMELY STRESSFUL FOR THAT REASON.

I USED TO HAVE A GAMEBOY IN MY OFFICE SO I COULD PLAY TETRUS WHILE I WAS WAITING FOR THE JURY TO COME BACK.

LAUGH.

>> Eric: YOU HAVE GREAT EXPERIENCE DEFENDING FOLKS AND I WONDER WHAT Mr. NELSON, CALIFORNIA CHAUVIN'S ATTORNEY, WHAT OPPORTUNITIES DOES HE HAVE TO CREATE SOME REASONABLE DOUBT IN THE CLOSING ARGUMENT?

>> YOU KNOW, [INDISCERNIBLE] THAT DIDN'T GO FURTHER AND SAY THAT GEORGE FLOYD FLOYD'S DEATH WAS AN ACCIDENT, HE CALLED IT INDETERMINANT.

IT REALLY IS ABOUT REASONABLE DOUBT FOR THE DEFENSE, WHICH IS NOT A STRONG POSITION.

YOU WANT TO GO INTO YOUR CLOSING HAVING YOUR OWN NARRATIVE AND THE DEFENSE REALLY DOESN'T BECAUSE THE STATE WAS ABLE TO CALL A NUMBER OF WORLD-RENOWNED EXPERTS, PULMONOLOGISTS, CARDIOLOGISTS, THEY HAD A TOXICOLOGIST AND REALLY WHAT THE DEFENSE HAD WAS A MEDICAL EXAMINER WHO DOESN'T HAVE AREAS OF EXPERTISE IN THOSE AREAS.

I'LL ALSO ADD, HE DID SAY THAT CARBON MONOXIDE POISONING WAS A CONTRIBUTING CAUSE OF DEATH WHICH SEEMS FAIRLY IMAPPLAUSIBLE AND I THINK THE STATE IS ABLE TO DEAL WITH THAT WHEN THEY RECALLED Dr. TOBIN.

SO IT IS REALLY GOING TO BE ABOUT REASONABLE DOUBT, PROBABLY IT WILL BE ABOUT, IT'S JUST NOT FAIR TO SECOND-GUESS THE ACTIONS OF A POLICE OFFICER WHO'S IN A STRESSFUL SITUATION, AND IF A MEDICAL EXAMINER CANNOT COME UP WITH A CAUSE OF DEATH, THERE MUST BE REASONABLE DOUBT.

SO I EXPECT THOSE TO BE THE TWO ARGUMENTS THEY WILL FOCUS ON.

>> Cathy: SO THE JURORS ARE AT HOME THIS WEEKEND AND, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, MONDAY IS A BIG DAY.

I'M WONDERING, IS THERE ANY DANGER OF WISH ARE JURORS BEING EXPOSED TO THE NEWS.

CLEARLY, TOO, WHAT ROLE DOES DAUNTE WRIGHT'S DEATH PLAY IF AT ALL IN ANY OF THIS?

>> RIGHT.

I -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY CHANCE THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE ONE OF THE DAYS THAT THEY WERE RELEASED, THERE WAS A CURFEW AND SO IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE THAT THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT.

IT'S PROBABLY ANOTHER LAYER ON TOP OF THE BARE KNOWLEDGE THAT THIS VERDICT IS EXTREMELY CONSQUENTIAL.

THEY TALKED ABOUT THAT DURING JURY SELECTION.

THEY TALKED ABOUT BEING WORRIED ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS VERDICT SO THAT'S PROBABLY JUST ONE ADDITIONAL LAYER.

THE IDEA OF BEING AT HOME, THEY'VE BEEN EXPOSED, THIS JURY KNOWS MORE OR KNEW MORE ABOUT THIS CASE GOING INTO IT THAN PROBABLY ANY OTHER JURY, SO BEING EXPOSED AT THIS POINT, YOU KNOW, HOPEFULLY THEY'RE TRYING TO AVOID THAT EXPOSURE BUT I THINK IT WAS A REALLY GOOD IDEA BY THE JUDGE TO HAVE CLOSING ARGUMENTS ON MONDAY.

FIRST OF ALL, IT'S BEEN A LONG, EMOTIONAL TRIAL, THAT GIVES THE LAWYERS THE WEEKEND TO PREPARE, TO REALLY GET THEIR CLOSING ARGUMENTS DOWN.

IT ALSO GIVES THE JURORS AN OPPORTUNITY TO REST.

OTHERWISE IF THEY DID CLOSING TODAY, THE JURY WAS GOING TO GET THE CASE LATE THIS AFTERNOON AND THEN GO RIGHT INTO SEQUESTRATION AND HAVE TO DELIBERATE THIS WEEKEND AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN REALLY EXHAUSTING.

THIS WAY THE JUDGE HAD THEM GO HOME, GET REFRESHED, TOLD THEM TO PACK THEIR BAGS SO THEY CAN COME IN ON MONDAY READY TO GO.

>> Eric: GIVE ME A 30-SECOND YEAR-OLD ON CAMERAS IN THE COURTROOM.

>> OH, I -- I WAS INITIALLY OPPOSED TO THEM BECAUSE I THINK THAT THEY DO IMPACT JURORS AND WITNESSES.

BUT I'M PARTLY CONVINCED, I THINK THAT THIS HAS BEEN A WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITY FOR THE PUBLIC TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN THOSE PARTS OF THE TRIAL, LIKE JURY SELECTION THAT NOBODY HAD EVER REALLY SEEN BEFORE SO THERE WERE SOME REALLY POSITIVE THINGS TO COME OUT OF THIS TRIAL.

AND WHEN A VERDICT COMES DOWN, PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING IT WILL HAVE SEEN THE EVIDENCE AND BE IN A BETTER POSITION TO JUDGE WHETHER THAT WAS AN APPROPRIATE VERDICT.

>> Eric: MARY MORE AREA, THANKS SO MUCH.

PLEASURE.

>> Cathy: THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

♪♪♪ >> CATHY: THIS WEEK, FORMER BROOKLYN CENTER POLICE CHIEF TIM GANNON SAID THAT KIM POTTER THOUGHT SHE WAS USING HER TASER, NOT HER GUN, WHEN SHE AIMED AT DAUNTE WRIGHT SUNDAY AFTERNOON DURING A TRAFFIC STOP.

BUT LONGTIME CRITICS OF POLICING SEE A DIFFERENT EXPLANATION RESULTING IN THE SAME OUTCOME.

JOINING US NOW, NEKIMA LEVY-ARMSTRONG.

SHE IS A CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY WITH THE WAYFINDER FOUNDATION.

JAYLANI HUSSEIN HEADS THE MINNESOTA CHAPTER OF CAIR, THE COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

THE >> NEKIMA LEVEE ARMSTRONG, I'M GOING TO START WITH YOU.

I THINK I SAW YOU AT A NEWS CONFERENCE AND IT APPEARS YOU WERE NOT ACCEPTING THE NARRATIVE THAT OFFICER POTTER MADE A MISTAKE.

IF IT WASN'T AN ACCIDENT, WHAT WAS IT IN YOUR EYES?

>> I BELIEVE THAT SHE ACTED WITH RECKLESS DISREGARD FOR DAUNTE WRIGHT'S LIFE WHEN SHE FIRED HER HANDGUN INSTEAD OF HER TASTER.

FIRST OF ALL, THERE WAS NO NEED TO EVEN USE A TASTER IN THE FIRST PLACE, LET ALONE FOR DAUNTE TO -- WHEN DAUNTE WAS PULLED OVER, HE ACTUALLY CALLED HIS MOTHER AND HE TOLD HER THAT HE WAS BEING PULLED OVER BECAUSE OF AN AIR FRESHENER HANGING ON HIS MIRROR.

WHEN WE MET WITH THE HEAD OF THE BROOKLYN CENTER CENTER POLICE DEPARTMENT, WE QUESTIONED HIM ABOUT THAT AND HE WAS FORCED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THAT WAS IN FACT ONE OF THE REASONS IN WHICH DAUNTE WAS PULLED OVER.

HE ALSO TALKS ABOUT EXPIRED TABS, WHICH WE RAISED CONCERNS ABOUT GIVEN THE FACT THAT WE'RE IN THE MIDST OF A PANDEMIC AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE EXPIRED TABS, EXCEPT MOST ARE NOT BEING PULLED OVER.

WE FELT THAT RACIAL PROFILING WAS A FACTOR IN THE ENTIRE SITUATION.

>> Eric: Mr. HUSSEIN, ON THE LEGAL SIDE OF THIS, BODY CAM FOOTAGE WAS RELEASED VERY QUICKLY, THE CHARGES WERE BROUGHT VERY QUICKLY.

HOW ABOUT ON THE LEGAL SIDE, HOW DO YOU THINK IT'S BEEN HANDLED?

>> I DON'T THINK ANY OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF PEOPLE DID NOT DEMAND FOR THAT.

THIS IS NOT NORMAL.

MINNESOTA HAS OVER 400 PEOPLE THAT POLICE HAVE KILLED IN THE STATE OF MINNESOTA, IS 2,000.

AND IF IT WASN'T FOR PEOPLE PROTESTING AND PUTTING ON PRESSURE, I DON'T THINK THAT YOU WOULD HAVE RECEIVED THE IMMEDIATE RESPONSE.

AND I ALSO WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE MAYOR MICHAEL VOTE WHO DIDN'T HAVE THE POWER, WHO HAD TO WORK WITH THE CITY COUNCIL TO FIRE THE CITY MANAGER AND THESE CHARGES, LIKE NEKIMA MENTIONED, WE BELIEVE THAT IT'S A MURDER CHARGE THAT SHOULD ACTUALLY BE COMING FORWARD AND SO THAT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT IN THIS MOMENT RIGHT NOW THAT WE SEE THAT MURDER CHARGE COME FORWARD BUT THIS CASE IS VERY SIMILAR TO THE MAHMOOD NOOR CASE.

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE HERE IS THE VICTIM -- AND THE OFFICER IS... >> THAT SOUNDS GOOD.

[HEARING VOICES] >> WE'RE GETTING SOME CROSS-TALK HERE.

>> Cathy: SORRY, IT'S HARD TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON HERE.

SO I THINK I WOULD LIKE TO GO AHEAD AND, IF I COULD HERE, IT'S NEKIMA IS ABLE TO HEAR US -- >> YES, I CAN HEAR YOU.

>> Cathy: THERE YOU GO, THANK YOU.

I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE YOUR VIEW, JAYLANI BROUGHT UP MAHMOOD NOOR.

DO YOU SEE TIES BETWEEN THIS CASE AND MA MOOD NOORS'S?

>> I DO SEE TIES TO THIS CASE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS INTERESTING ABOUT THE THIRD-DEGREE MURDER CHARGE UPON WHICH MA HAD MOOD NOOR WAS CONVICTED IS THAT TYPICALLY THIRD-DEGREE MURDER CHARGES IN MINNESOTA ARE UTILIZED WHEN SOMEONE IS BEING -- HAVING A BRAVED HEART OR MIND, LET'S SAY SHOOTING IN A MOVIE THEATER, A CROWDED MOVIE THEATER AND NOT AIMING AT A SPECIFIC PERSON.

WHERE HAS THAT PARTICULAR STATUTE BEEN USED TO PROSECUTE SOMEONE WHO IS AND NOW, UNDER MINNESOTA LAW, THAT HAS BEEN SEEN AS MUCH MORE ACCEPTABLE.

I FELT THAT THE STATUTE AND THE LAW WAS BEING MANIPULATED IN ORDER TO MAKE IT APPLY TO MAHMOOD NOOR'S CASE, AND NOW THAT WE HAVE THIS CIRCUMSTANCE WHICH IS VERY SIMILAR WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE FACT THAT THE OFFICER IN QUESTION WAS AIMING HER WEAPON AT DAUNTE WRIGHT, THE FACT THAT SHE KNEW EXACTLY WHO SHE WAS TRYING TO TARGET, THE FACT THAT SHE ACTED WITH RECKLESS DISREGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE AND EVIDENCED A DEPRAVED MIND AND HEART, THAT AT A MINIMUM, THIRD-DEGREE MURDER SHOULD BE APPLIED IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE.

AND SOME WOULD EVEN ARGUE SECOND DEGREE MURDER CHARGES MIGHT EVEN BE APPROPRIATE.

IF A CIVILIAN DID WHAT KIM POTTER DID, WE KNOW THAT THAT CIVILIAN WOULD WOULD FACE MURDER CHARGES AS WELL AS MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES AND POTENTIALLY EVEN ASSAULT AND BATTERY CHARGES IN THAT SITUATION.

THE FACT THAT SHE WAS A 26-YEAR VETERAN MEANS THAT THERE SHOULD BE A HEIGHTENED STANDARD OF RESPONSIBILITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY.

SHE WAS ALSO A FIELD TRAINING OFFICER WHICH MEANT THAT SHE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.

SHE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GUN AND A TASTER.

AND I THINK THAT MOST OFFICERS AROUND THE COUNTRY WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.

WHETHER THEY PUBLICLY ACKNOWLEDGE IT OR NOT.

>> Eric: Mr. HUSSEIN, YOU TALKED ABOUT CREATING KIND OF A CIVIL RIGHTS TWO.0 PROGRAM.

COULD YOU FLESH THAT OUT FOR US?

WHAT DUMB BY THAT?

YOU SAID THAT AT THE NEWS CONFERENCE >> I THINK WE ARE IN A MOMENT WHERE -- WITH THE DEATH AND THE KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD AND NOW WITH DAUNTE WRIGHT, MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE SOMEHOW THAT SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED SINCE THE KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD.

NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

WE'VE LOST [INDISCERNIBLE] WAS KILLED IN MINNEAPOLIS, WE STILL DON'T HAVE ANY ANSWERS AND AS THIS TRIAL WHICH HAS BEEN TRAUMATIZING IS COMING TO A CLOSE, WE SEE THE FACT THAT NOTHING HAS FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED WHEN DAUNTE WRIGHT WAS KILLED.

AND ALSO ADAM THIELEN, WE LEARNED ABOUT IN CHICAGO.

SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENING EVERYWHERE AND WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO A SOLUTION AND THAT IS WHY WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO PASS POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY BILLS WHO HAVE BEEN STALLING IN THE HOUSE AND NOW SEEMS TO BE GETTING MORE SUPPORT.

SO WE NEED TO BE HOLDING POLICE ACCOUNTABLE.

WE HAVE NOT DONE THAT.

THIS IS A UNIQUE MOMENT IN TIME, THE ENTIRE WORLD IS WATCHING US HERE, THE STATE OF MINNESOTA, BROOKLYN CENTER, AND WE HAVE A MOMENT IN THIS STATE FOR THE GOOD PEOPLE OF THE STATE TO STAND UP AND SAY, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

WE ALL [INDISCERNIBLE] WHERE WE ARE DEMANDING JUSTICE AND END... [DISTORTED AUDIO] >> I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THERE IS A WILL, WE JUST NEED THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MINNESOTA TO COME OUT AND DEMAND JUSTICE AND THAT JUSTICE LEADS TO A SOLUTION, NOT SYMPATHY, NOT SAYING THEY'RE SORRY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED BUT ACTUALLY THINKING ABOUT REAL SOLUTIONS THAT CAN HOLD POLICE ACCOUNTABLE AND IT STARTS WITH AN OFFICER KILLS SOMEONE LIKE DAUNTE WRIGHT TO PROPERLY CHARGE THEM TO SHOW THAT WE ARE NOT GOING BACK BUT WE ARE GOING FORWARD, AND THIS IS A MOMENT I THINK THE STATE OF MINNESOTA CAN LEAD THE NATION IN BOTH [INDISCERNIBLE].

>> Cathy: NEKIMA LEVEE ARMSTRONG, WE HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE AND A HALF LEFT.

I'M CURIOUS ABOUT THIS.

WE HAVE A STORY COMING UP RIGHT AFTER OUR INTERVIEW WITH FOLKS IN BROOKLYN CENTER OUTSIDE THE POLICE STATION AND THEY TALK ABOUT FEAR.

THEY ARE AFRAID OF THE COPS AND THE COPS ARE AFRAID OF THEM.

WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THAT?

>> WELL, I'M HERE RIGHT NOW OUTSIDE THE BROOKLYN CENTER POLICE STATION WHERE WE ARE HOLDING A MARCH AND RALLY IN HONOR OF DAUNTE WRIGHT AND OTHER VICTIMS OF POLICE VIOLENCE.

IT IS UNFATHOMABLE TO ME THAT OFFICERS WOULD CLAIM THAT THEY ARE FEARFUL WHEN THEY HAVE HIGH-POWERED WEAPONRY, THEY HAVE CHEMICAL WEAPONS, THEY HAVE NON-LETHAL MUNITIONS AND THEY HAVE THE POWER OF THE LAW ON THEIR SIDE, NOT TO MENTION THE AUTHORITY THAT HAS BEEN AFFORDED TO THEM.

THEY ALSO HAVE A LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY AND A LACK OF TRANSPARENCY, WHICH IS SYSTEMIC IN NATURE.

SO TO CLAIM THAT THEY ARE FEARFUL OF CITIZENS MAKES VERY LITTLE SENSE, GIVEN THAT THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE SHOWING UP TO THESE CALLS, THEY'RE SHOWING UP TO THESE TRAFFIC STOPS AND THEY ARE ENDING WITH DEADLY FORCE.

AND OFTEN WITH FOLKS WHO ARE UNARMED AND EVEN WITH YOUNG PEOPLE, LIKE IN THE CASE OF DAUNTE WRIGHT, WHO WAS NOT A THREAT TO THOSE OFFICERS' SAFETY.

IF THOSE OFFICERS HAD ALLOWED HIM TO JUST GO ON ABOUT HIS BUSINESS, HE WOULD STILL BE ALIVE.

SO THEY ARE THE ONES THAT WE FEAR.

THEY ARE THE ONES WHO INFLICT HARM UPON OUR COMMUNITY.

THEY ARE THE ONES TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE UNDER THE LAW JUST AS A CIVILIAN WOULD WHO TOOK THE LIFE OF ANOTHER WITHOUT JUSTIFICATION.

>> Cathy: NEKIMA LECY ARMSTRONG, JAYLANI HUSSEIN, THANK YOU.

>> Eric: THANK YOU, FOLKS.

>> ERIC: PEOPLE HAVE CONGREGATED ALL WEEK IN FRONT OF THE BROOKLYN CENTER POLICE DEPARTMENT.

BY DAY, THE GATHERINGS ARE SMALL.

AT NIGHT, THE CROWDS GROW LARGER.

THIS WEEK, KAOMI LEE MADE A DAYTIME VISIT TO THE SITE AND FOUND PEOPLE DEMANDING JUSTICE.

THIS IS VERY EMOTIONAL FOR ME BECAUSE WE HAVE A CITY MAYOR THAT'S ALSO LIBERIAN, HE'S AN IMMIGRANT, AS WELL.

[CROWD NOISE] >> MINNEAPOLIS RESIDENT PATIENCE GREW UP NEAR THE BROOKLYN CENTER POLICE HEADQUARTERS.

SHE SAYS THE AREA IS CHRONICALLY OVER-POLICED.

>> I'M ANGRY BECAUSE I WANT TO HAVE THE CONVERSATION WITH THE POLICE.

I WANT TO KNOW WHY THEY ARE SO ANGRY WITH BLACK PEOPLE.

WHY ARE YOU SO ANGRY?

WHEN YOU PULL US OVER, WHY THE -- YOU JUST PULLED US OVER AND YOU'RE SO ANGRY.

WHY THE ANIMOSITY?

WHY ARE YOU TREATING US LIKE WE'RE THIRD-CLASS CITIZENS?

>> CHOWOE TOOK THE DAY OFF WORK AS A HOSPITAL DIETICIAN TO BUT SHE WAS FRUSTRATED SHE COULDN'T TALK WITH ANYONE FROM THE LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENT.

>> WHY IS THE NATIONAL GUARD IN FRONT OF US.

IF ANYBODY NEEDS PROTECTION, IT'S US!!

>> 18-YEAR-OLD ARTHUR SIMMS WAS WALKING BY.

HE SAYS THE POLICE KILLINGS HAVE TO STOP.

>> PEOPLE CAN'T EVEN WALK OUTSIDE THEY HOUSE WITHOUT THINKING, OH [BLEEP], I MIGHT GET SHOT.

OR IF I GET PULLED OVER, I CAN'T GET OUT THE CAR WHEN THEY SAY SO BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE I MIGHT GET SHOT.

>> SIMMS SAYS HIS COMMUNITY IS ALREADY ON EDGE BECAUSE OF THE DEREK CHAUVIN TRIAL.

HE WANTS THE POLICE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

>> ALL I WANT IS FOR COPS TO BE TREATED LIKE ANY NORMAL PERSON, IF THEY DO A CRIME.

THAT'S ALL I WANT.

THAT'S ALL I WANT.

I DON'T CARE HOW SMALL A CRIME, IF THEY DID IT, THEY SHOULD DEAL WITH IT.

BECAUSE THEY'RE THE ONES WHO ARE ENFORCING THE LAWS.

>> AFTER DAYS AND NIGHTS OF PROTESTS HERE OUTSIDE THE BROOKLYN CENTER POLICE DEPARTMENT, STUDENTS AT THIS NEARBY HIGH SCHOOL ARE SPEAKING OUT BECAUSE THEY SAY THEY'RE CONCERNED FOR THEIR FUTURE.

>> AT A YOUNG ABLE, WE WAS ALWAYS TAUGHT TO, YOU KNOW, WHENEVER A POLICE OFFICER TRIES TO BE AS RESPECTFUL AS POSSIBLE, MAKE SURE HE SEES YOUR HANDS, DON'T DO ANY SUDDEN MOVEMENT.

>> ALMOST HAVE TO BASICALLY SUBMIT TO THE POLICE.

[CHANTING IN THE BACKGROUND] >> FOLLOW THEIR ORDERS, JUST TO MAKE IT BACK HOME TO OUR FAMILIES.

JUST DISHEARTENING.

>> BROOKLYN CENTER CITY POLICE OFFICER KIMBERLY POT KERR YIELD DAUNTE WRIGHT WITH HER FIREARM.

SHE ALLEGEDLY THOUGHT SHE WAS HOLDING HER TASTER.

THESE YOUNG PEOPLE SAY THAT DOESN'T ADD UP.

>> THERE'S SO MUCH TRAINING TO BECOME A POLICE OFFICER AND I FEEL LIKE UNDER PRESSURE YOU'RE REACTING IN, LIKE, THE WRONG WAY, YOU SHOULDN'T BE A POLICE OFFICER.

>> AT 17, LEVON GIBSON SAYS HE'S ALREADY HAD MANY ENCOUNTERERS WITH POLICE.

>> EVERY SINGLE TIME I INTERACTED WITH THEM, IT NEVER HAD TO DO WITH ME FEELING PROTECTED.

I NEVER FELT PROTECTED WHEN I CAME INTO CONTACT WITH THEM.

>> HE SAYS INSTEAD OF HIDING BEHIND FENCES HE WOULD LIKE THE POLICE TO TALK TO THE COMMUNITY.

>> THERE IS SO MUCH FEAR IN MY COMMUNITY RIGHT NOW, SO MUCH FEAR IN PLACE OF PROTECTION, YOU KNOW, IN PLACE OF THINGS THAT SHOULD BE POSITIVE, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

WE'RE SCARED TO WALK ON THESE STREETS.

WE'RE SCARED TO RIDE OUR BIKES.

>> CATHY: ON MONDAY, AS DETAILS OF THE KILLING OF DAUNTE WRIGHT CAME TO LIGHT, MANY TOOK TO TWITTER AS AN OUTLET FOR THEIR GRIEF.

THAT'S WHAT TONYA ALLEN DID.

SHE'S THE NEW PRESIDENT OF THE MCKNIGHT FOUNDATION.

IN ONE TWEET, SHE WROTE: "THIS MORNING, WE MOURN.

WE CRY.

WE WAIL.

WE ARE ANGRY.

WE ARE TIRED.

WE ARE HEARTBROKEN."

A FEW MINUTES LATER SHE ADDED: "WE ARE AFRAID AND THEN WE REMEMBER WE ARE NOT POWERLESS, WE ARE POWERFUL BEYOND MEASURE AND WE CAN HARNESS OUR ENERGY TO CHANGE THINGS, TO CHART A NEW COURSE FOR MINNESOTA."

THE MCKNIGHT FOUNDATION IS BASED IN MINNEAPOLIS AND SERVES THE WORLD.

LAST YEAR, IT MADE $100 MILLION WORTH OF GRANTS.

MCKNIGHT PRESIDENT TONYA ALLEN JOINS US BY FROM THE TPT LOBBY.

GOOD TO SEE YOU, Ms. ALLEN.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> THANK YOU, I'M DOING WELL.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME, CATHY, I APPRECIATE THE IT.

>> Cathy: REALLY, HOW ARE YOU?

THAT WAS A POWERFUL TWEET.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> WELL, I'M DOING OKAY AND I SAY "OKAY" BECAUSE I THINK AS A BLACK AMERICAN, YOU GET ACCUSTOMED TO BEING RESILIENT IN THESE MOMENTS BUT I THINK AT THAT MOMENT, I JUST FELT LIKE, YOU KNOW, IT WAS PAINFUL FOR ME.

I DID CRY, I DID WAIL THAT MORNING AND THEN I THOUGHT ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN OUR COMMUNITY AND ALL OF THE PAIN AND ALL OF THE TRAUMA THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE CARRYING AND I FELT LIKE I NEEDED TO SAY A MESSAGE TO THEM, AND TO ALSO MAKE SURE THAT WE REMEMBER THAT THIS ISN'T JUST ABOUT DAUNTE WRIGHT OR GEORGE FLOYD, THAT THERE IS A HISTORICAL RECORD OF THIS HAPPENING IN OUR COUNTRY AND SO IT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ME TO SAY THAT AND ALSO TO SAY WE HAVE TO TURN OUR PAIN INTO PURPOSE AND WE HAVE TO TAKE THIS MOMENT AND REALLY CREATE SYSTEMIC CHANGES IN THIS COUNTRY, AND WHY NOT DO IT HERE WHILE THE EYES ARE, YOU KNOW -- THE EYES OF THE NATION ARE ON US.

AND I OFTEN THINK, LIKE, WE DON'T WANT THOSE EYES TO LEAVE US BELIEVING THAT WE ARE RACIST STATE WHEN IN ACTUALITY, WE COULD BE IMPLEMENTING AND EXECUTING POLICIES THAT PROVE TO THE WORLD THAT AMERICA CAN CHANGE AND THAT WE CAN LIVE UP TO THE PROMISE THAT WE'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT EXCEPTIONALITY, THAT WE'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED WE'VE HELD.

>> Eric: HOW ABOUT A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES OF CONCRETE STEPS THAT SHOULD BE TAKEN?

>> WELL, ONE, I THINK THAT WE NEED TO HAVE OUR LEGISLATORS DEBATE THESE PUBLIC POLICIES AROUND PLACE REFORM THAT ARE SITTING AT THE CAPITOL.

WE NEED TO MOVE THAT INTO THE PUBLIC SQUARE SO THAT PEOPLE CAN REALLY HEAR THAT WE CANNOT LET IT BEHIND BEHIND CLOAK AND DARKNESS.

I THINK THE SECOND THING IS, OF COURSE, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE -- WE'VE GOT TO DEAL WITH THE ISSUES THAT CREATE THESE SYSTEMIC CHALLENGES.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH ACHIEVEMENT GAP THAT IS HAPPENING IN SCHOOLS.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE HAVE ACCESSIBILITY TO AFFORDABLE HOUSING, THAT THEY CAN HAVE TRANSPORTATION, THOSE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LOOK AT AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE INVESTIGATE OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM, WHEN WE LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF YOUNG CHILDREN THAT GO TO JAIL IN THIS STATE.

THESE ARE ALL THINGS THAT WE KNOW, WE KNOW WE HAVE DISPARITIES ON ALL THESE ISSUES AND IT'S TIME FOR US TO NOT JUST ACCEPT THEM, IT IS TIME FOR US TO BREAK THEM DOWN AND CORRECT THEM.

NOT JUST CORRECT THEM IN THE MOMENT, HOW DO WE REPAIR THEM, HOW DO WE REPAIR THE HARM THAT WE'VE DONE TO LOTS OF PEOPLE IN OUR STATE?

>> Eric: WELL, THE MONEY CAN BE FOUND AND THE POLICIES CAN BE CHANGED BUT HOW DO YOU GET AT THE HEARTS AND MINDS ISSUE THAT'S KIND OF BEHIND A LOT OF THIS?

>> WELL, I MEAN, I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO DO OUR OWN WORK AROUND THIS.

WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS, LIKE IN ORDER FOR MINNESOTA TO DO WELL, WE ALL HAVE TO DO WELL, AND THAT MEANS THAT WE CAN'T JUST LOOK TO ONE PARTICULAR POPULATION, WE GOT TO FIGURE OUT, LIKE, HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT THIS ECONOMY WORKS FOR EVERYONE, AND MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE BELIEVE AND UNDERSTAND THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE LOCKED OUT.

AND SO THAT THEY'RE NOT IN COMPETITION WITH OTHER PEOPLE, THAT THEY CAN DO WELL AND SOMEONE ELSE CAN DO WELL AT THE SAME TIME AND I THINK SO WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO WORK ON THOSE THINGS AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CREATE HEALING IN OUR COMMUNITY.

WE, YOU KNOW, THIS DAUNTE -- DAUNTE'S DEATH REALLY JUST HELPED US OR PUSHED US TO HIT THAT WOUND THAT HAS YET TO BE HEALED AND IT'S TIME FOR US TO HEAL IT AS A COUNTRY.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO WRESTLE WITH THESE TOUGH QUESTIONS AND ESPECIALLY AS A STATE.

HOW DO WE START TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS WHERE PEOPLE CAN SAY THINGS AND NOT BE CHALLENGED BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY THINK BUT THAT THEY WILL BE VALUED OR JUDGED BY WHAT THEY WILL DO NEXT, LIKE HOW DO THEY -- HOW DO WE HELP THEM MOVE OUT OF THIS MOMENT, WHATEVER THAT MAY BE.

AND THAT'S -- >> Cathy: THAT'S WHAT I'M CURIOUS ABOUT, IN TERMS OF MAKING SYSTEMIC CHANGE AND STARTING THE HEALING, WHAT'S THE ROLE OF THE PHILANTHROPIC COMMUNITY, SPECIFICALLY FOUNDATIONS LIKE McKNIGHT?

>> WELL, I THINK OUR ROLE IS SIMPLE.

WE NEED TO BE INVESTING IN THE LEADERS, MANY OF THE ONES YOU JUST HAD ON YOUR SHOW.

WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE INVEST IN PROGRAMS AND NEW WAYS TO DO BUSINESS.

WE ALSO CAN INVEST IN CONVERSATIONS AND TRAINING AND SUPPORT TO COMMUNITIES.

WE CAN INVEST IN HOW TO REBUILD OR RESTRUCTURE OUR ECONOMY, HOW TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT ECONOMY IS SUSTAINABLE AND ISN'T PUSHING OFF CARBON SO THAT THE WEAKEST OR THOSE WHO ARE THE LEAST OF US GET THE WORSE IMPACT RELATED TO IT.

SO WE ARE -- PHILANTHROPY SHOULD BE THE ENTITY THAT CAN HELP SPARK AND CAN HELP SEE THIS ACTION AND ACTIVITY THAT IS HAPPENING HERE BUT, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T CARRY IT ALL BUT WHAT WE CAN DO IS INVEST IN THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO DO IT SO THAT WE SET THAT SPARK AND THEN HOPEFULLY WE GOT A REAL FIRE GOING ON, AND NOT A FIRE THAT'S DESTRUCTING THINGS, BUT A FIRE THAT REALLY IS BRINGING LIGHT INTO DARKNESS.

>> Cathy: WE'RE DOING TO LEAVE IT THERE.

THERE'S SO MUCH TO TALK ABOUT.

THANKS FOR COMING IN.

>> THANK YOU.

>> ERIC: THIS WEEK, THE COMMUNITY GRAPPLED ONCE MORE WITH A BLACK LIFE LOST TO POLICE.

BUT AS REPORT FOR AMERICA AND "ALMANAC" DATA REPORTER KYELAND JACKSON FOUND, THE HISTORY OF POLICE KILLINGS IN MINNESOTA HAS BEEN LONG AND PAINFUL.

THAT MOMENT LAUNCHED A WAVE OF SUFFERING THAT HAS BECOME ALL TOO FAMILIAR HERE.

HEADLINES HAVE REMEMBERED DAUNTE WRIGHT AS A LOVING FATHER WITH A BRIGHT SMILE AND A LIFE TAKEN TOO SOON.

DATA BY THE "WASHINGTON POST" FOUND THAT 73 MINNESOTANS HAVE BEEN SHOT AROUND KILLED BY POLICE SINCE 2015.

AND ALTHOUGH WHITE RESIDENTS MAKE UP MOST OF THAT DATA, BLACK PEOPLE ARE OVER-REPRESENTED IN THESE KILLINGS.

ONE OF THE MANY PEOPLE WHO MEET THE FAMILIES OF THOSE VICTIMS IS MICHELLE GROSS.

>> I KNOW THAT SOME OF THE LOCAL MEDIA HAVE HAD ARTICLES OF PEOPLE SHOT BY THE POLICE BUT WE KEEP METICULOUS RECORDS OF ALL THE WAY PEOPLE DIE AT THE HANDS OF POLICE AND WHICH HAVE HAD NEARLY 500 PEOPLE KILLED IN THE STATE OF MINNESOTA SINCE 2000, ABOUT 473 OR SO.

AND SO IT'S AN APPALLING NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT ARE KILLED BY THE POLICE AND PEOPLE MOSTLY DON'T KNOW ABOUT THOSE CASES.

THEY NEVER HEAR ABOUT MOST OF THE NAMES.

WHEN YOU ALLOW THAT CONDUCT TO GO ON FOR A LONG TIME, THE DAY-TO-DAY ABUSES ARE WHAT STACK UP INTO THESE CRITICAL INCIDENTS.

THAT'S WHY OUR ORGANIZATION HAS A 4-HOUR HOTLINE BECAUSE WE TAKE THE DAY TO DAY ABUSE -- I WORK ON ALL THE POLICE KILLINGS BUT I WORK A LOT MORE ON THE DAY-TO-DAY ABUSES.

WE GET TONS OF PHONE CALLS EVERY WEEK OF DIFFERENT THINGS THAT GO ON AND WE ARE HELPING THOSE PEOPLE AND SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S IMPORTANT TO TRUST THOSE DAY-TO-DAY ABUSES BECAUSE THEY CREATE THE CLIMATE THAT ALLOWS THOSE PARTICULAR ABUSES TO OCCUR.

>> THERE'S NO ONE DATA SOURCE OF FATAL POLICE SHOOTINGS BUT ANALYSIS BY THE "STAR TRIBUNE" FOUND THAT BROOKLYN CENTER POLICE HAVE KILLED SIX PEOPLE IN THE PAST NINE YEARS, FIVE OF THEM WERE MEN OF COLOR.

OFFICER KIM POTTER HAS SINCE BEEN CHARGED WITH SECOND-DEGREE MANSLAUGHTER FOR DAUNTE'S SHOOTING BUT THE VIDEO IS STILL RAISING QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW THE POLICE OPERATE.

DENSE' KENNY WITH THE JOHN J COLLEGE OF JUSTICE IN NEW YORK SAYS THAT TRAINING IS A HUGE FACTOR.

>> THAT'S ONE OF THE INHERENT PROBLEMS IN POLICING, NOBODY CALLS THE POLICE BECAUSE THEY'RE HAVING A GOOD DAY SO THE POLICE GENERALLY ENGAGE WITH CITIZENS IN EITHER AN EMOTIONALLY STRESSED SITUATION OR IN AN ALMOST ADVERSARIAL SITUATION.

I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING THAT INDICATES THAT SHE WOULD HAVE DELIBERATELY SHOT HIM AND I HAVE SEEN REPORTS THAT THE TASTER'S WORN ON THE CORRECT SIDE, THE GUNS WERE WORN ON THE CORRECT SIDE AND ALL OF THAT WAS ADHERED TO.

IF THAT'S ALL TRUE, THEN MUSCLE MEMORY WOULD BE THE ONLY THING THAT WOULD REALLY ACCOUNT FOR THAT, YOU KNOW, IN THE STRESS OF THE MOMENT, YOU GRABBED THE WRONG THING.

AND THAT COMES DOWN TO TRAINING AND SO MOST POLICE DEPARTMENTS TRAIN A GREAT DEAL ON DRAWING THE GUN, USING THE GUN, YOU KNOW, CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE THE GUN MIGHT BE REQUIRED.

THEY TRAIN LESS ON THE TASTER BECAUSE IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE.

DISCHARGING THE TASTER IS MORE PROBLEMATIC THAN AND EXPENSIVE THAN RANGE PRACTICE.

AND SO HOW MUCH OF THAT IS -- WAS FANGS OF TRAINING THAT SHE WAS SIMPLY UNPREPARED.

I WOULD BE CURIOUS TO KNOW WHAT THE DEPARTMENT'S POLICY ON THE USE OF THE TASTER IS.

THE TASTER IS NOT A COMPLIANCE TOOL, IT'S A TOOL TO OVERCOMRIE ASSISTANCE.

HE APPEARED TO BE ATTEMPTING TO ESCAPE AS OPPOSED TO ATTEMPTING TO FIGHT WITH THEM.

>> BUT THE BROOKLYN CENTER P.D.

'S WEBSITE, WHERE YOU MIGHT FIND THAT POLICY HAS BEEN DOWN SINCE DAUNTE WAS KILLED.

QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT POLICY AND WHEN THE WEBSITE WOULD BE ONLINE WERE NOT RETURNED AT THE TIME OF THIS PIECE.

KENNY SAYS THAT POLICE SHOULD TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT HOW THEY TRAIN OFFICERS AND CHANGE PUBLIC SAFETY POLICY BUT HE SAID IT'S IMPORTANT TO INVOLVE THE COMMUNITY IN THOSE TALKS.

>> POLICE -- THERE SHOULD BE PUBLIC INVOLVEMENT IN DEVELOPING WHAT THE POLICY AND PROCEDURES OF THE POLICE ARE SO THAT THERE IS A COLLABORATIVE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE COMMUNITY AND THE POLICE DEPARTMENT ON WHAT'S EXPECTED OF THE POLICE AND WHAT'S EXPECTED OF THE COMMUNITY.

AND IF YOU'VE GOT THAT KIND OF CONSENSUS ON THE EXPECTATIONS, THEN THE CONFLICTS ARE LESS LIKELY TO OCCUR AND MORE EASILY MANAGED WHEN THEY DO OCCUR.

>> THE POLICE HAVE BEEN UTTERLY RESISTANT, NOT ALL BUT THE POLICE LEADERSHIP THAT IS PRESENT AT THE CAPITOL, THE MINNESOTA PEACE AND POLICE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION, THE SHERIFF'S ASSOCIATION, THE MINNESOTA CHIEFS OF POLICE ASSOCIATION, YOU KNOW, THESE ORGANIZATIONS HAVE BEEN UTTERLY RESISTANT.

YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT TO BE -- YOU CAN'T HAVE ULTIMATE POWER OVER PEOPLE, LIFE AND DEATH, AND HAVE NO ACCOUNTABILITY.

THAT SIMPLY DOES NOT WORK.

WE'VE GOT TO RECOGNIZE THAT THIS IS A PROBLEM AND WE'VE GOT TO BE WILLING TO STEP ON SOME TOES TO FIX THAT PROBLEM.

>> Eric: NOW IN RESPONSE TO MICHELLE GROSS'S STATEMENTS, THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE AND PEACE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION SENT US A STATEMENT SAYING, QUOTING NOW, THE MPPA -- MPPOA SUPPORTS IMPROVING POLICIES AND PRACTICES AND HAS CONSISTENTLY ADVOCATED AND SUPPORTED MEASURES TO MAKE POLICING BETTER AND TO IMPROVE OUR PROFESSION, UNQUOTE.

>> CATHY: LAWMAKERS ARE LOOKING TO GO FURTHER ON POLICE REFORMS.

AFTER GEORGE FLOYD'S DEATH, IN SPECIAL SESSION IN JULY, LEGISLATORS PASSED A HANDFUL OF CHANGES, NONE OF WHICH WOULD HAVE PREVENTED THE DEATH OF DAUNTE WRIGHT.

NOW, SOME POLICYMAKERS ARE PUSHING TO CONTINUE TRYING TO ADDRESS ANOTHER KILLING OF A BLACK MAN IN A POLICE INTERACTION.

POLITICAL REPORTER MARY LAHAMMER GIVES US MORE CONTEXT.

>> Mary: THE FIRST RING SUBURB OF BROOKLYN CENTER WHERE DAUNTE WRIGHT WAS KILLED IS JUST NORTH OF MINNEAPOLIS.

IT HAS GROWN DIVERSITY WITH LESS THAN HALF OF THE RESIDENTS IDENTIFYING AS WHITE.

>> THE HOME DISTRICT OF THE WRIGHT FAMILY AND THE DISTRICT I REPRESENT.

>> Mary: LAWMAKERS LEFT THE CAPITOL TO GO TO BROOKLYN CENTER TO HONOR ANOTHER BLACK LIFE LOST.

>> I -- THE PEOPLE OF INDIGENOUS CAUCUS.

>> Mary: THEY ALSO HAD A MESSAGE ABOUT BUDGET NEGOTIATIONS.

>> WE DEMAND THAT SPEAKER HORTMAN, MAJORITY LEADER GAZELKA AND GOVERNOR WALZ STOP NEGOTIATIONS NOW AND PASS THE BILL IMMEDIATELY.

>> WE DO NOT WANT TO ADJOURN WITHOUT ANY ACTION BEING TAKEN.

LAST YEAR, THERE WAS SOME MEASURES THAT WERE PASSED, BIPARTISANLY, BUT THEY DID NOT GO FAR ENOUGH.

>> Mary: INITIALLY, SENATE REPUBLICANS SAID MEASURES PASSED LAST YEAR, AFTER GEORGE FLOYD'S DEATH, BANNING POLICE CHOKEHOLDS AND WARRIOR TRAINING, WERE ENOUGH.

BUT AFTER DAYS OF PRESSURE, THEY SAID THEY'D HOLD INFORMATIONAL HEARINGS.

>> THE DEATH OF DAUNTE IN THIS SITUATION, EVEN THOUGH IT'S A TRAGIC ACCIDENT, APPEARS TO BE A TRAGIC ACCIDENT, JUST MEANS THAT WE WANT TO OPEN THE DOORS FOR CONVERSATION BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW THAT THEY'RE BEING HEARD.

>> ARE THERE, REPRESENTATIVE FRAZIER, BILLS THAT YOU THINK ARE MUST -- MUST-DOS IF THERE IS A PRIORITY LIST IN WHAT THE SENATE DOES HERE?

>> THERE ARE SOME BILLS THAT MUST BE DONE.

I THINK THE -- THERE IS A BILL THAT SPECIFICALLY DEALS WITH THE EARLY WARNING SYSTEM, THE EARLY WARNING DETECTION SYSTEM THE P.O.S.T.

BOARD IS TASKED WITH PUTTING IN PLACE.

THERE IS AN ISSUE AROUND THE DATA, WE HAVE A BILL IN PLACE TO FIX THAT DATA PIECE, TO ALLOW THEM TO GET THE INFORMATION THAT THEY NEED FOR THE EARLY WARNING SYSTEM.

I THINK THAT BILL NEEDS TO BE DONE.

>> Mary: I'M WONDERING IF THERE'S INTEREST IN CHANGING WHAT POLICE CAN PULL PEOPLE OVER FOR.

WE NOW REALLY KNOW BY ANECDOTE, AND EVEN EVIDENCE, YOU CAN LOOK AT THE LIFE OF PHILANDO CASTILLE, HE WAS PULLED OVER 49 TIMES IN 13 YEARS.

I'M HEARING SOME INTEREST, EVEN BIPARTISAN INTEREST IN REALLY CHANGING THE SEVERITY OF THE OFFENSE WHICH SOMEBODY CAN BE PULLED OVER FOR.

WHAT'S GOING ON LEGISLATIVELY ON THAT?

>> WE WILL BE SENDING OUT AS SOON AS IT'S AVAILABLE REGARDING JUST THAT ISSUE AND WHETHER FOLKS CAN BE PULLED OVER FOR THINGS THAT AREN'T RELATED AT ALL TO PUBLIC SAFETY AND SOME OF THOSE MINOR TRAFFIC INFRACTIONS THAT ARE OFTEN USED AS A REASON TO INSTIGATE, YOU KNOW, POLICE INTERACTING WITH DRIVERS.

>> Mary: THE D.F.L.-LED HOUSE COMMITTEE QUICKLY HEARD THAT LANGUAGE AND BILLS GIVING FAMILIES ACCESS TO POLICE BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE AND ENDING QUALIFIED IMMUNITY FOR COPS.

SENDING THOSE BILLS FOR FLOOR ACTION, THE COMMUNITY IS DEMANDING.

>> WE'RE HURTING.

PEOPLE ARE DYING AND WE NEED YOUR HELP.

WE'RE ASKING PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN TO JUMP INTO THIS FIGHT WITH BOTH FEET.

WE'RE ASKING GOVERNOR WALZ TO JUMP INTO THIS FIGHT WITH BOTH FEET.

>> IT IS 1921 AND THREE AFRICAN AMERICAN MEN HAVE BEEN LYNCHED IN DULUTH, MINNESOTA.

AFTER THE LYNCHING, MINNESOTA LEGISLATURE PASSED AN ANTI-LYNCHING BILL, THE FIRST OF ITS KIND IN THIS NATION.

NOW WE ARE IN 2021.

100 YEARS LATER.

AND EARLIER THIS WEEK, ANOTHER LYNCHING HAPPENED.

>> WE'VE BEEN SAYING THE SAME DAMN THING A MILLION DIFFER WAYS AND FOR SOME REASON, OUR LEGISLATURE ACTS AS IF THEY CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE BASIC PRINCIPLES OF HUMAN DIGNITY AND HUMAN DECENCY AND HOW TO TREAT PEOPLE.

>> I'M TIRED OF SEEING BLACK BODIES LAYING ON THE GROUND.

BLACK PEOPLE DYING HERE IN THIS STATE.

>> MEMBERS, PLEASE STANDS FOR A MOMENT OF SILENCE.

>> TRAGEDY AFTER TRAGEDY HAS BEEN PILED ON TO OUR COMMUNITIES AND IT IS BEGINNING TO CRUSH US.

OUR COMMUNITY IS HURTING DEEPLY.

AS OUR SOUL MOURNS THIS TRAGIC LOSS OF LIFE.

WE AT THE LEGISLATURE HAVE THE POWER TO MANIFEST A IF I FUTURE WHICH IS BRIGHT AND JOYFUL.

>> OUR STATE IS REELING.

LAW ENFORCEMENT'S REELING, OUR COMMUNITIES ARE REELING, WE'RE WONDERING WHAT IS NEXT, HOW ARE WE GOING TO DEAL WITH THIS TRAUMA, THIS PAIN, WITH THIS HAPPENING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

>> Mary: THE LEGISLATURE IS STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO PAY FOR PUBLIC SAFETY NEEDS EXPECTED NEXT IN REACTION TO THE DEREK CHAUVIN TRIAL, WHILE DAYS OF PROTEST FOR DAUNTE WRIGHT BROUGHT DOZENS OF ARRESTS AND CONTINUED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE RIGHT OR WRONG AMOUNT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT.

>> HOW WE TAKE THE MATCH AWAY FROM THE POWDER KEG IS THAT WE LISTEN TO PEOPLE, WE WORK THROUGH THIS ISSUE, AND WE FIND A WAY THROUGH AND THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THROUGH IT.

♪♪♪ >> ERIC: WE'RE GOING TO SPEND THE REST OF THE HOUR FOCUSING ON THE LAST MONTH OF THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION AND THE ROLE THAT POLICE REFORM MAY PLAY IN THE FINAL NEGOTIATIONS.

HERE FOR THAT CONVERSATION, D.F.L.

'ER AND FORMER SENATOR, JEFF HAYDEN.

HERE TOO, REPUBLICAN LEGISLATIVE LOBBYIST BRIAN MCDANIEL.

SENATOR, YOU ARE ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE PEOPLE OF COLOR, INDIGENOUS CAUCUS, AND THERE'S BEEN QUITE A BIT OF TALK AMONG THOSE MEMBERS THIS WEEK OF HOLDING UP BUDGET NEGOTIATIONS UNTIL THE POLICE REFORM PIECE IS TAKEN CARE OF.

THERE ARE 12 POCI CAUCUS MEMBERS IN THE HOUSE, IF THEY STUCK TOGETHER AND DECIDED TO TORPEDO BUDGET BILLS, THAT'S QUITE A BIT OF LEVERAGE, ISN'T IT?

>> YEAH, THAT'S A LOT OF LEVERAGE.

I MEAN, THAT'S THE MOST WE'VE EVER HAD.

LAST YEAR, YOU KNOW, WE LED THIS CHARGE AND WE REALLY WERE FOCUSING ON THE BONDING BILL, WE HAD THE LARGEST HISTORIC BONDING BILL THAT WE EVER HAD.

THIS YEAR WE'VE UPPED THE ANTE -- I SHOULD SAY THEY UPPED THE ANTE, SOMETIMES I STILL THINK I'M THERE, THEY'VE UPPED THE ANTE TO SAY THAT THIS IS IMPORTANT, IT MUST GET DONE AND THEY'RE WILLING TO SPENDS EVERY BIT OF THEIR CAPITAL, PUSH ALL THE CHIPS IN TO MAKE SURE THIS GETS DONE.

>> Cathy: BUT IT MEANS THERE WOULD BE NO SMOOTH ENDING TO SESSION.

WOULD THAT WOULD THAT NOT PUSH EVERYTHING INTO A SPECIAL SESSION?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IF THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO, THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO.

BUT PEOPLE OF MINNESOTA IN GENERAL, AND BLACK PEOPLE IN MINNESOTA ARE TIRED OF DYING.

IT IS THAT DIRE.

IF WE NEED TO POTCH THIS TO SPECIAL SESSION, IF WE NEED TO TAKE A PAUSE OF ALL THE THINGS WE NEED TO DO IN ORDER TO GET THIS MEANINGFUL LEGISLATION DONE, THEN I THINK THAT'S WHAT MY FORMER COLLEAGUES ARE WILLING TO DO.

>> Eric: BRIAN, TAKE US INSIDE THE REPUBLICAN STRATEGY ON THIS AND THE FEELING OF CONSTITUENTS, OF REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS AND SO FORTH.

WHAT'S THE DYNAMIC THERE?

>> WELL, I CERTAINLY THINK THAT LEGISLATORS ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE OF THE AISLE, AND ALSO THEIR CONSTITUENTS CAN OBVIOUSLY SEE THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS IN PLACE PRESENTLY ISN'T WORKING.

RIGHT NOW, MINNESOTA IS GETTING A TERRIBLE REPUTATION AND I THINK UNFORTUNATELY SOME OF IT IS EARNED, AND IT IS CERTAINLY A CONVERSATION THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN, NEEDS TO HAPPEN AT THE LOCAL LEVEL AND AT THE STATE LEVEL ABOUT WHAT CAN BE PUT INTO PLACE THAT WOULD MAKE COMMUNICATION BETTER BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THE PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE SWORN TO PROTECT, AND TO IGNORE IT IS PROBABLY UNCONSCIONABLE AT THIS POINT.

I THINK THAT THE SENATE IS GOING TO START HEARING SOME OF THE BILLS.

IF THEY DON'T THINK THAT THESE BILLS ARE NOT ONES THAT NECESSARILY, YOU KNOW, REALLY DO GET AT TRUE CHANGE, THEN I THINK THEY SHOULD COME UP WITH NEW BILLS AND THEN LET'S -- LET'S DEBATE THOSE.

BUILT THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT ISN'T GOING TO GO AWAY.

I AGREE WITH JEFF THAT THE POCI CAUCUS HAS POWER AND THAT THIS IS THEIR TIME TO USE IT, AS OTHER GROUPS USE THEIR POWER, AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT FORCING CONVERSATIONS DOESN'T NECESSARILY ALWAYS FORCE CHANGE BUT THE CONVERSATION HAS VALUE AND IT DOES MOVE THINGS TOWARDS RESOLUTIONS EVENTUALLY.

>> Cathy: YOU KNOW VERY WELL WHAT HAPPENS AT THE CAPITAL, BRIAN, BOTH OF YOU DO, OBVIOUSLY, DO YOU THINK THAT REALLY ANYTHING CAN GET DONE THIS SESSION?

BRIAN SHHH >> WELL, I MEAN, ON THIS TOPIC, PROBABLY NOT.

I THINK THAT THERE WERE REFORMS THAT WERE DONE DURING THE INTERIM THAT REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO POINT TO AND SAY, LOOK, THESE ARE THINGS THAT WE'VE ALREADY DONE.

BUT THERE ARE LOTS OF ISSUES THAT SOMETIMES THERE ISN'T MIDDLE GROUND.

WE TALK ABOUT GUN ISSUES AND, YOU KNOW, CERTAIN OTHER ISSUES, THERE'S NOT A MIDDLE GROUND THAT IS FOUND.

I DON'T KNOW THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO FIX THESE ISSUES BY, YOU KNOW, THE MIDDLE OF MAY BUT I THINK PROBABLY MOST OF US THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE DOING THIS DURING THE SUMMER, AS WELL, SO THERE'S PROBABLY MORE TIME THAN WE WOULD LIKE TO KEEP TALKING ABOUT THIS.

>> Eric: SURE.

SENATOR, COULD -- THIS IS A POLITICAL PANEL SO LET'S TALK SOME POLITICS HERE.

COULD GOVERNOR WALZ FACE AN ENDORSEMENT CHALLENGE FROM HIS LEFT?

I HEARD THE NAME OF MINNEAPOLIS CITY COUNCILMEMBER JEREMIAH ELLISON RAISED THIS WEEKEND, THIS PAST WEEK.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> YEAH, I'M NOT SURE.

I KNOW THAT SOME OF MY PROGRESSIVE FRIENDS AREN'T TOO HAPPY WITH THE GOVERNOR THESE DAYS IN TERMS OF THE WAY THAT THE ROLL-OUT HAS HAPPENED TO PROTECT THE CITY, SO I KNOW THAT THERE IS CERTAINLY SOME CONSTERNATION THERE.

I PERSONALLY DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S NECESSARY.

I THINK THAT THERE'S JUST SOME CONVERSATIONS THAT NEED TO HAPPEN, I THINK I THINK THE GOVERNOR NEEDS TO GET A LITTLE CLOSER TO COMMUNITY AND THAT COMMUNITY CONTINUES TO KIND OF SAY WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT THEY WANT.

SO I'M NOT QUITE SURE THAT -- THAT THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN BUT WHAT I DO KNOW IS I KNOW THE GOVERNOR IS IN ALIGNMENT, AS WELL AS EVERYBODY IN THIS STATE, I WOULD HOPE, CERTAINLY DEMOCRATS, ABOUT THE THINGS THAT WE NEED TO DO TO DEAL WITH ALL THE ISSUES THAT WE'RE FACING TODAY AROUND POLICE REFORM AND TRANSFORMATION, BUT THEN ALL OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT WE'RE FACING AND REALLY TO MAKE MUCH ARE BELOVED COMMUNITIES IN THIS STATE.

I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE UNDERLYING ISSUES HERE, WE HAVEN'T PAID ATTENTION, WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS ISSUE OF DISPARITIES AND OTHER ISSUES AND CREATE THESE REALLY CAUSTIC ENVIRONMENTS -- ENVIRONMENT AND I THINK THAT WE NEED TO ELEVATE THAT AND IT STARTS WITH THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT POLICE AND COMMUNITY REFORM.

>> Cathy: SAY, BRIAN, DO YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN ON THE POLITICS OF THIS ISSUE FOR THE GOVERNOR, ESPECIALLY AS HE RUNS FOR REELECTION?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT ALMOST ALL MEMBERS OF THE D.F.L.

KIND OF HAVE TO LOOK TO THEIR LEFT AND WITH A LITTLE BIT OF TRIP DAYS, THE SAME WAY THAT AROUND 2010, REPUBLICANS HAD TO LOOK TO THEIR RIGHT, YOU KNOW, FOR FEAR OF BEING PRIMARIED.

I DON'T KNOW THAT I THINK THAT GOVERNOR WALZ IS NECESSARILY IN TROUBLE OF BEING PRIMARIED WITH ANYTHING THAT WOULD BE -- THAT WOULD BE SUCCESSFUL.

HOWEVER, I THINK THAT YOU'RE SEEING WITH, YOU KNOW, THE INCREASED NATIONAL GUARD PRESENCE RIGHT NOW, THAT PROGRESSIVES ARE BEING VERY LOUD SAYING THAT THEY DON'T WANT NOR APPRECIATE, YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF MILITARISTIC LOOK TO POLICE REFORM, BUT THERE ARE ALSO LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO OWN BUSINESSES IN MINNEAPOLIS AND IN BROOKLYN CENTER THAT WILL TELL YOU THAT WE NEED MORE BECAUSE THEIR BUSINESSES AREN'T SAFE.

THEIR LIVELIHOODS AREN'T SAFE, THEIR PERSONAGE IS NOT SAFE.

SO FINDING THAT RIGHT BALANCE IS A LITTLE DIFFICULT.

I MEAN, THE GOVERNOR WAS MORE THAN A FEW DAYS LATE AFTER GEORGE FLOYD AND NOW, YOU KNOW, THERE MIGHT BE A LITTLE BIT OF COMPENSATION FOR THAT.

>> Eric: SENATOR, THE OPERATION SAFETY NET, WHICH IS THIS REGIONAL MULTI-DISCIPLINARY FORCE TO PREVENT VIOLENCE IN THE CHAUVIN TRIAL, THAT'S GOT MAYOR FREY, A DEMOCRAT, THAT'S THE GOVERNOR, A DEMOCRAT, HOW DOES THAT FIT INTO THE PICTURE AS FAR AS FALL-OUT FROM THIS?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT THEY WERE TRYING TO FIND A BALANCE AS BRIAN SAID OF PROTECTING PEOPLE AND PROTECTING, YOU KNOW, THE BUSINESSES THAT WERE THERE THAT WE ALL SAW WENT UP IN FLAMES AND MANY PEOPLE HURT WITH INTERHOPERS AND OTHER PEOPLE THAT CAME INTO OUR COMMUNITY.

IT'S REAL BALANCING.

IT'S HARD.

HOW DO YOU GET THE ASSETS THERE TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE AND AT THE SAME TIME NOT BE HEAVY-HANDED.

HOW DO YOU TAKE A POLICE DEPARTMENT THAT IS OVERLY MILITARISTIC WITH ALL THE WEAPONRY THAT THEY'VE GOT AND THEY LOOK VERY MUCH LIKE THE NATIONAL GUARD.

SO I THINK THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO FIGURE THAT OUT.

I KNOW THERE'S GOOD PEOPLE THERE, COMMISSIONER HARRINGTON, THE COLONEL AND OTHERS THAT ARE REALLY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THIS BALANCE AND I THINK NOBODY PLANNED FOR THE INCIDENTS THAT HAPPENED IN BROOKLYN CENTER AND THAT REALLY ELEVATED THE SITUATION AND PROBABLY DIDN'T GIVE THEM A CLEAR SIGHT.

I DO KNOW THIS, I DO KNOW THAT ON THE FOURTH DAY WHEN THERES WAS NO CHEMICAL IRRITANTS, WHEN THERE WASN'T THE RUBBER BULLETS WE REALLY ARE LETHAL, THEY CAN PUT PEOPLE'S EYES OUT, NOT USING THOSE TO DE-ESCALATE THE SITUATION.

I THINK THE GOVERNOR IS LISTENING, I THINK COMMISSIONER HARRINGTON AND THE COLONEL ARE LISTENING TO THAT AND HOPEFULLY THEY'RE LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE AND THERE IS SOME BALANCES THAT WE CAN FIND AS WE GO INTO THIS WEEK OF DELIBERATIONS AND HOPEFULLY THE RIGHT OUTCOME HAPPENS, BUT IF NOT, AND PEOPLE NEED TO GO OUT AND PLOW TEST, THAT THEY DO SO -- AND PROTEST, THAT THEY DO SO IN A WAY THAT REFLECTS THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS AND DOESN'T PUT THEM IN HARM'S WAY.

>> Eric: MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT SENATE MAJORITY LEADER PAUL GAZELKA WILL RUN FOR GOVERNOR IN 2022.

WHAT ARE THE STAKES FOR HIM IN THIS NEGOTIATION?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY, IT'S I OUR HOPE THAT HE'S FOCUSED ON THE BUDGET.

THAT'S HIS JOB AND I THINK THAT HE TAKES THAT JOB VERY SERIOUSLY.

HE IS CERTAINLY ONE OF THE NAMES THAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR GOVERNOR AND I DO THINK THAT THERE PROBABLY IS SOME INTEREST THERE, AND RIGHT NOW WITH ONLY A FEW NAMES IN, I THINK THAT -- THAT MAJORITY LEADER GAZELKA WOULD HAVE A GOOD SHOT.

BUT HOW HE REACTS AND HOW HE DEALS WITH A LOT OF THE ISSUES THAT ARE HAPPENING NOW, YOU KNOW, UNTIL THE END OF SESSION AND THEN INTO THE SUMMER WILL DEFINITELY AFFECT HIS VIABILITY NOT ONLY WITH THE PEOPLE OF MINNESOTA BUT, YOU KNOW, FIRST AND FOREMOST, WITH REPUBLICAN DELEGATES.

>> Eric: GREAT STUFF.

FELLAS, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND, THANKS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> ERIC: THAT'S ALL WE HAVE TIME FOR TONIGHT.

WE WANT TO GIVE YOU A HEADS-UP THAT TPT WILL HAVE A SPECIAL BROADCAST DEVOTED TO THE VERDICT IN THE CHAUVIN TRIAL.

THAT SPECIAL WILL AIR IN THE EVENING ON THE DAY FOLLOWING THE VERDICT.

SO, IF THE VERDICT IS ON TUESDAY, LOOK FOR THAT TPT SPECIAL ON WEDNESDAY NIGHT.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.

AND BE CAREFUL.

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