♪ >> Hello.

Thanks for joining us on another edition of Canada Files .

I'm Jim Deeks.

Our guest on this episode is Kirsten Hillman, Canada's Ambassador to the United States.

Born and raised in Western Canada, Ms Hillman practiced law after graduating from McGill University in Montreal.

Then embarked on a successful federal bureaucrat career.

Specializing in trade negotiations including the pivotal US-Mexico-Canada agreement completed in 2019.

She was appointed Ambassador to Washington in March 2020.

>> Ambassador Hillman, thanks for joining us on Canada Files.

>> I'm so happy to be here.

Thank you, Jim.

>> As you know, you are the first woman to hold the job of Canadian Ambassador to the United States.

I would think you are one of the youngest in history.

One generally thinks of a seasoned career diplomat or a political friend of the Prime Minister, being awarded the job.

You have managed to buck both of those trends.

Tell us how you got the job.

>> Thanks for calling me young.

I appreciate that.

I don't have a traditional diplomatic career.

I have sent most of my career as a trade negotiator and trade lawyer within the government of Canada.

I came into the government at the time the WTO and NAFTA were just created and represented Canada as a lawyer before the WTO and NAFTA panels.

Young, a lot of responsibility in those early days-- we were all trying to figure it out because it was quite new.

I transitioned from that to trade negotiator.

Spent some time in Switzerland as the head of our legal office.

I started to move into the trade negotiation international space under Prime Minister Harper.

We were seeking to join the Trans-Pacific partnership negotiations happening between the US, some Latin American and many Asian countries.

At the time, they weren't that interested in having Canada join during the negotiations.

But it was very important to us.

I was tasked to mount a campaign to get us in those negotiations.

I travelled the world from Brunei, Singapore to Peru.

And we succeeded!

After that, Prime Minister Harper named me as chief negotiator for those negotiations.

At the same time, I was running the branch of Canadian government responsible for all trade negotiations.

Through all of that, I ended up here in Washington after President Trump was elected and the NAFTA negotiations were started in order to work on those negotiations in DC.

It was a complicated and tricky negotiation but ultimately really successful.

It was after that, Prime Minister Trudeau asked me if I would serve as Canada's Ambassador to the US.

Which is truly the honour and privilege of my career.

>> I assume the ambassadorship to Washington is the outcome that most career diplomats would wish for.

Is it fair that people like yourself, not career diplomats nor political appointees, are given the job?

>> This job requires a few things.

It requires a high level of trust and a good relationship between the leader of our country-- the prime minister and the incumbent.

Ultimately the role of this job is to represent the government of Canada in the US.

You have to be someone the prime minister knows and trusts.

You have to be able to pick up the phone and call him or her-- in this case, him.

Talk to them and give clear advice whenever needed.

That is the most important feature of the job.

Here we are dealing with the relationship... frankly, that is the most important in our country.

We need those direct channels of advice and communication.

>> The old image of a diplomat is one, as you say, that acts as the liaison between governments and leaders.

If Joe Biden wants to talk to Justin Trudeau, doesn't he just pick up the phone and call Washington, without necessarily having to go through your office?

>> No.

In fact, he does indeed go through our office.

The systems are still in place.

We are the liaison of the White House to the Prime Minister and his office.

Those communications go through us.

We serve as advisors to all members of the cabinet on what's happening here.

Fundamentally our responsibility--- there are many aspects to my job and my team in Washington and around the country, is we are tasked with helping our government and all Canadians-- provinces, industries, civil society, communicate effectively with their US counterparts.

We serve as people who provide context, facts from the ground, give advice on what's preoccupying people here to our government, our prime minister, his cabinet and many others.

So their relationships can be effective here in the US.

We do the opposite too.

We talk to Americans.

Whether it's the White House and the administration-- state level representatives, Congress, business people about the priorities and interests of Canada.

So when they engage with their Canadian counterparts those conversations are effective.

>> If the President is talking to the Prime Minister on the phone, are you and some of your colleagues, and conversely advisors to the President, on these calls?

Listening in, and advising both leaders on "ask this" or "he just said that so be careful."

Or is it just a mano a mano conversation?

>> Now you're asking for some of our trade secrets.

We have to keep a bit of mystery to the job.

...We keep very good track of the conversations that happen at the political level, at all levels.

There's different kinds of conversations.

Some are more public, some are more private.

It really depends on the issues we are talking about.

>> How diplomatic does an ambassador have to be?

I know that sounds like a dumb question.

I imagine there are issues you have a personal interest in.

Not necessarily individually but your own opinions.

Whether it's in the current case of the building of the Keystone pipeline, or the ongoing softwood lumber dispute between Canada and the US.

If you have your own opinions, are you allowed to express them even if they may be slightly opposite to the official government position.

>> My job and that of all of our team here is when we are representing the government of Canada is to represent the policies of the Canadian government.

That is absolutely our job.

I'm a citizen of Canada.

I have views I express in my personal life.

But my job is to represent the government here.

Being diplomatic-- one thing I would say about that.

I'm not a traditional career diplomat.

What that means for me is I engage as myself.

I'm very much who I am.

I'm a very direct, straightforward person.

I'm Canadian so I'm very polite and respectful.

But I'm quite firm and direct.

That makes me somewhat unorthodox as an ambassador.

But it makes me very effective in the US.

Americans like straight talk.

Many of my counterparts have said to me how refreshing and how they appreciate my ability to be honest and frank about what is on our minds.

That's the best way for our relationship with our Americans to move forward.

>> You took over as ambassador, just over a year ago, succeeding David MacNaughton who was a political appointment.

I know David to be a bright, careful diplomatic person.

I wonder whether being an ambassador during the presidency of Donald Trump, if a seasoned career diplomat might have been more effective in countering President Trump's whims.

Particularly the tariffs introduced on steel and aluminum that took everyone by surprise.

>> From where I sit, our government was exceedingly successful with the Trump administration.

We had a situation where we had an existential, essentially an economic threat to our country.

When NAFTA was under re-negotiation and the president was quite willing to walk away from that agreement altogether.

Those were difficult negotiations.

Everybody saw that.

The imposition of the steel and aluminum tariffs were added to that complexity and those challenges.

They were imposed on the pretext of national security reasons which was very challenging for Canadians.

Ultimately in those negotiations and all of our interactions with the previous, or any administration, the Canadian approach is to be strong and stand up for the Canadian interests-- businesses and workers.

It was often said in the negotiations, we're not going to escalate matters but we're not going to back down.

That's exactly what we did.

It was a very effective approach with President Trump.

With our neighbour here overall.

We are very privileged to have the US as our neighbour.

We gain enormous advantage being their closest neighbour, ally and friend.

Sometimes their decisions are challenging for Canada.

When that happens, we have to stand up, be firm, and polite.

We did that well under all the previous administrations.

>> How difficult a process was it for you, the prime minister, and External Affairs Minister, Chrystia Freeland, who was our chief negotiator on the NAFTA?

Knowing you were dealing with a mercurial force at the other end of the talks?

>> It was a complicated and challenging negotiation.

That is true and all Canadians saw that.

There were many factors to that negotiation, and in the US political system.

There is the president and his approach but also Congress.

Also powerful allies we have in the Senate and the House.

In the US, no trade agreement can come into force without passing through Congress.

So we spend a lot of time making sure that our allies in Congress, the business and labour communities were all expressing their views on how these negotiations should turn out.

What we were looking and achieved very well, is a negotiation that moves a relationship forward and modernizes it.

That's good for Canadian workers, and Canada that brings that 20 year-old agreement into the modern times so it is effective for businesses.

Yes, there was discussion with the White House and president.

Those were effectively managed because we were strong and firm.

We also have many other relationships that contributed to our success.

>> Ultimately, was it good that NAFTA was re-negotiated?

There were some things that were out of date.

>> Absolutely!

Over 20 years ago, when the NAFTA entered into force, there was no internet.

The way they do business today, has changed radically from the way it was done back in the day.

There were no provisions in the original NAFTA on e-commerce and digital trade.

Which made it very much in need of updating.

We did all of those things and we took account of other aspects of the trading international regime.

Very important for Canadians right now, but were less on the radar screen 20 years ago.

Including binding provisions for labour rights and protections.

And stronger environmental provisions that are fully enforceable in the treaty.

In many ways, we brought it up to date.

It's a much stronger agreement.

>> David Frum, a political commentator in Washington whom you would know well, was our first guest on Canada Files this season.

We asked him whether Canada-US relations had been irrevocably altered or damaged by the presidency of Donald Trump.

He said no-- the bilateral relation will heal very quickly.

But Trump's actions throughout the world may have been so negative that North America may have been negatively affected by Trump.

From a diplomat's perspective, do you agree with that?

>> I have great respect for David Frum and enjoy his company very much.

I don't agree with that.

Where I sat during the Trump administration, one thing that we saw regularly was other countries reaching out to us for advice-- our allies from G7, Asia, around the world.

Guidance as to how to approach the Trump administration.

How to get things done with the Trump administration.

There's no doubt we had challenges in the relationship over those four years.

Ultimately, we solved problems and got things done with Trump and his administration.

Many countries took note of that and looked to us for advice and guidance on how to do the same.

>> What are some of the bilateral issues that you're going to be working on, over the next few years with the Biden administration?

>> Over a month ago, the President and Prime Minister issued a road map for the Canada-US relationship.

It is a roadmap looking forward over the next few years.

For anyone interested in Canada-US relations, I commend you that document.

It is an incredibly substantive piece of vision, for our two countries.

There are dozens of very concrete things identified that we are going to do together-- fighting COVID, economic recovery, fighting climate change, our energy relationship, international co-operation, security and defence, fighting for racial equity.

It is the most comprehensive leaders' statement that I have seen in my career.

It's remarkable for a couple of reasons.

One, it demonstrates the degree of alignment between our government and the US administration.

Which is very good for Canada.

It doesn't mean we're going to agree on everything.

We won't.

But there is an enormous amount of alignment between our two governments.

Secondly, it also demonstrates the moment we are in.

We are coming through a very difficult time in our national and bi-lateral history with COVID, the economic decline and globally.

It shows two leaders with very similar visions of how to bring the world out of this time.

It's a very good time for Canada-US relations.

>> As you know, there are two Canadian businessmen who are sitting in jail in China for over two years.

Most Canadians believe this situation is retaliation for Canada holding a Chinese businesswoman under house arrest in Vancouver who is awaiting extradition to the US, for a trial on conspiracy and fraud charges.

Most Canadians believe this is totally unfair and we and those two unfortunate men, are caught in the middle.

What has your role been, as Canadian ambassador to US, in this situation which seems to be going nowhere?

>> The arbitrary detention and securing their release, of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor is a core priority for our government.

It is also a core priority for many of our allies around the world who are expressing their outrage and condemnation of this hostage diplomacy.

These two gentlemen have been in jail for over two years because Canada abided by, and continues to abide by, our international commitments to the US, under our extradition treaty.

We are following the rule of law and respecting those obligations As a consequence, these two men have been arbitrarily detained.

Our partners around the world are working with us to express condemnation.

At the forefront are our American friends.

From the President on down, we've had strong expressions of support.

There isn't a single conversation that I have-- with the White House, or senior administration members, contacts in Congress, or in the private sector here, that doesn't offer to do whatever people can, to help us with this situation.

The Biden and Vice President Harris' administrations have said they are approaching efforts to secure the release of those men as though they were American citizens.

That's a very powerful thing.

It is something that every day, is on my desk, and what I talk to leadership here about.

I have the utmost confidence they are doing everything they can to work with us to secure the early release of these men.

>> Will diplomacy ultimately resolve this issue?

Or will it take a darker turn?

>> I'm a believer in diplomacy and talking things through.

It's unconscionable that they have been in these conditions for over two years.

We will work every angle to get them home.

>> Do women make better diplomats than men?

Being a woman makes it hard for me to assess that.

Skills of diplomacy come down to personal characteristics that are found in women and men.

It's a job for a good listener.

Be attuned to the perspectives of your interlocutor.

You need to be very strategic, and know to communicate.

Sometimes that means not saying much or saying a lot.

I suspect both men and women possess those traits.

>> For all the advances that women have made, in all walks of life in the last 25+ years, I think you would agree there is still a glass ceiling.

There's disparity in salaries between men and women, age-old attitudes about women in business, more than any other profession.

Assuming there is some built-in obsolescence to a posting like Ambassador to Washington, what is next for your career path?

Do you retire and join a lot of corporate boards and make a lot of money?

Do you go back to Ottawa and resume a career as a leading bureaucrat?

Do you run for politics one day yourself?

What do you see as the next steps?

>> Those are all very interesting ideas, Jim.

What I would say is I've only been here just over a year.

I love this job.

I don't want to go anywhere now.

I'm in the right place for me now.

We'll see what the future holds.

There's a lot of exciting things to do out in the world.

For now, I'm really focused on being here.

>> I'm going to ask one final question, which I ask all our guests on Canada Files .

I'm always amazed at the variety of answers I get.

In your case, it's an important question because you are representing the concept of being Canadian for our country to our most important neighbour and trading partner.

What does being Canadian mean to you personally?

>> That's a great question.

I think Canada is the greatest country in the world.

Every single day I'm reminded of how proud I am to be Canadian.

How privileged I am to be representing our country here or anywhere.

We are young, vibrant, diverse, energetic and creative.

We're an open vibrant society.

We're also a society that cares.

We care about our communities at home and abroad, about standing up for our values-- democracy, human rights and rule of law.

We're consistent in the deeds we do and in acts we take.

I'm very proud of that.

It doesn't mean we get everything right, or that we don't have challenges.

We still have a lot of work to do at home with indigenous communities, racial equity, making sure that diversity and inclusivity is a feature of all Canadian society.

We're trying but we're not where we need to be.

For me, being Canadian means being proud of all the wonderful remarkable things we bring to the table.

Being confident while at the same time, realizing we have work to do and owning that.

I couldn't think of a better country to be from.

With all due respect to our dear American friends.

>> Madam Ambassador, thank you so much.

For representing our country with your skill and aplomb.

For sharing your thoughts with us on Canada Files .

>> It's been a pleasure.

Thanks for having me.

>> Thank you very much for joining us on Canada Files .

We hope you'll do so next time.

♪