[gentle guitar music] [gentle guitar music] - Welcome to "The Songwriters."

I'm Ken Paulson, and I am so pleased today to welcome Larry Gatlin- amazing performer, a man who's been at it for a few decades, and has done it extraordinarily well.

And now, a member of the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame.

Welcome Larry.

- Thanks Ken, good to see you again.

- Great to see you.

I, uh, I look at your life experience and it's- I mean, you've been singing professionally.

- Well, no- You've been singing in front of audiences since you were, like, six years old.

I have to ask, um, when did the songwriting kick in?

And, and did it involve crayons?

Were you, like, eight years old when you started writing songs?

- [laughs] No.

Not really.

Well, it-, it- it happened relative- you know, a little bit later when I was 20 or 21.

The brothers and I loved gospel music out in West Texas.

And, you and I talked about that while ago- such a, a hotbed for, ah, country music, pop music, rock and roll- and, ah, I fiddled around with it a little bit when I was in high school and college because I was an English major and I love poetry and- but it wasn't until I- I was in law school.

Ah, got a call from The Imperials.

You know, the great gospel group, ah, they were working with Elvis out in Vegas and with Jimmy Dean.

Ad, ah, (coughs) they- one of their guys had, had retired, and they needed a baritone singer, and I'd known 'em.

So, I left law school, went out there and tried out for the job.

Didn't really get it but when I met Dottie West, she had been to LA to do Glen Campbell's, um, "Goodtime Hour".

And he gave her two guitars, two Ovation guitars.

In fact, I brought one.

I've got it sitting in the other room if we want to show it after a while.

And, when I found out I didn't get the job with them, ah, Dottie kind of had a little pity, or felt sorry for me or somethin'.

She said, "Well, you look enough like Mickey Newbury "you got to be able to write a song."

- [laughs] - So, one night when she was getting her hair all curled, I went in there said- knocked on the door.

"Miss West, may I borrow your guitar?"

I've got a little idea- and I sat there and I wrote- ♪ Like the boy who robbed the cookie jar, ♪ ♪ I ran away and hid.

♪ ♪ I don't know why I just did ♪ -God help me.

- [laughs] - She said, "Like I say, you look enough like Mickey."

"So," she said, "Send me some songs."

And I sent her eight songs.

Ah, when I went home to Houston, wrote those, sent 'em to her- and she sent me a plane ticket.

A couple of those were- were not bad.

One of them was "Bitter They Are, Harder They Fall."

- Oh, wow.

- That Elvis recorded later.

Ah, so, that's, the kind of, when it started.

But being an English major I loved words.

And I'd tell people - ♪ The first time I fell in love ♪ ♪ I fell in love with a little girl named Jane.

♪ ♪ She had a brother named Dick, and a dog named Spot, ♪ ♪ and a cat named Puff, and a- named Tim.

♪ ♪ And since then my life's never been the same.

♪ ♪ If it weren't for all those peop- ♪ ♪ I wouldn't be in the Songwriters Hall of Fame.

♪ - [laughs] - Words.

- Wow - The first time I fell in love, I fell in love with- with books, with words.

And, so, um, that kind of morphed into the songwriting thing when I met Dottie and, ah, it- it- thank God it did.

- [laughs] - Let me take you way back though.

You know, you- you speak briefly of showing up in Las Vegas to- to, ah, try out for The Imperials.

-Mmmm-huh.

-Imperials, world-class gospel group.

- Yes - A very big deal.

How does a kid from West Texas get himself into a position where he can even think about going to trying out for this world class organization?

You, you had had to have been at it for a while and you had to have perfected your craft.

- Well, thank you.

Steve and Rudy and I started and then our sister, baby sister, LaDonna came along.

We started in Abilene, Texas listening to those gospel records: the Blackwood Brothers and the Statesmen Quartet.

The Blackwoods, you know, were Elvis's favorite group.

That was where we came from.

And, I tell people, we're gospel singers who got a great break in country music.

And, ah, we love, we loved them both, we just loved the other one longer.

I tell people, I failed my way all the up to the top, and all the way back down to the middle, and the middle is fine with me.

I, I, I failed in that, Uh, I, I, I didn't- I was in Odessa, Texas, didn't get to go to Permian, the high school that won state from which the- eh, eh, eh, Bissinger wrote Friday Night Lights, you know, Mojo.

I'm two-in-one against him.

So, anyway, the only quarterback in history too.

- [laughs] - I went to the other high school.

If it hadn't been there, I wouldn't have met, ah, ah, Coach Melvin Robertson, my football coach.

I wasn't good enough- I mean, I was a pretty good high school football player but I got a scholarship at Houston.

I wasn't really good enough but he'd been my biology teacher and my coach- and I got there and I met Ruby Campbell who I'd known as a kid but she lived there.

She's the one who told me, "Larry, the inst- the Imperials "need a baritone singer."

I was a waiter at Steak and Ale Restaurant, Ken.

- [laughs] - I called 'em, they said, "No, we don't really need anybody."

(clears throat) "We're just doing, "Ain't Nothing But A Hound Dog."

Ooo-ahh.

They called me later that night and said, "How can- how fast can you be here?"

I said, "In the morning," I didn't have enough money to go.

The waiters at Steak and Ale took up an offering and paid my airline ticket, which I was able to pay back.

Got to Vegas, didn't get that job.

They, they really wanted another guy and when he flunked his draft physical, they hired him, sent me back to Houston but I met Dottie and got there.

How, ahhh, you know.

- By the way, have the Imperials ever expressed their great regret in not hiring you?

- No, not really.

- [laughs] - I mean, you know, we got together and talk about it and one night I had 'em as my guest on the Opry on a show at the Ryman that the brothers and I did.

And I said, "You know, try it out-" And I told the story and I said, "God had a bigger plan for me."

Then I said, "No, wait, God had a different plan."

Because I would have- all I'd ever wanted to be was a gospel singer and they were one of my very favorite groups.

So, that- that plan works out, uh, if we- and the more I can say, Larry, sit down and stop trying to do God's job because She knows what's best for you.

- [laughs] - Share with our listeners a song of which you are particularly proud.

- Oh.

[strumming guitar] I try to pick up my guitar once a day.

By the way- Mr. Chet Atkins gave this guitar to a fellow named, oh, yeah, Vince Gill.

- [laughs] - And Vince Gill gave it to me.

And he might not have wanted- he might have wanted that to be private between, ah, between him and me.

But I'm going to tell you about it, anyway, Vince.

I mean, you ain't Vince Schwartz you're Vince Gill, And- and he- he knew that I loved Mr.- Mr. Atkins gave me another one because he knew I loved gut string guitar.

And, ah, he liked my singing and he was a very nice man.

So, [strums guitar] I try to pick it up once a day.

And if it talks to me- not this one, but this one or other ones that I have around the house.

And if it talks to me, sings to me, fine.

If it doesn't I put it down.

I go play golf.

I go do something else.

So, I cherish and honor the craft so much that I will not make this a job.

- That's great.

- I will not report to the factory every day.

I've done that, my daddy did that, and I'm grateful to people who do that, "Thank you."

Ahh, I know what that's like.

But it- it's a little bit different thing for me.

So I try to pick it up- One night many years ago I sat down [clears throat] in the basement.

[strums guitar] That's a nice chord.

[strums guitar] And I'm not- I'm no great shakes as a guitar player, but I knew this little- [strums guitar] And my fingers went to- [strums guitar] I never played that chord in my life.

It's just neat- up there.

So, I said, "That's beautiful.

You got to write a song Larry."

What- [clears throat] It was probably ten o'clock at night.

So, I went, ah- I decided to write a song.

So it was- ♪ blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

♪ So, I worked on it for an hour and it was terrible.

It was, "I love you, you love me.

"Oh, how happy we can de- be.

Pffft."

I put the guitar up, I walked upstairs, across the kitchen, ah, to go, ah, go get in bed with my beautiful wife, Janice, and I said, "Larry, what are you going to do now?

"You got that beautiful melody, what are you going to do?

"You don't- what will you do?

"What- what will I do now?"

What wi- walked back across the kitchen, back down the stairs, and went- ♪ What will we do now?

♪ ♪ You tell me.

♪ [guitar music] ♪ The hourglass is all out of sight.

♪ [guitar music] ♪ How could love slip through my fingers ♪ [tunes guitar] ♪ And leave nothing but time on our hands?

♪ ♪ And, how will we live now?

You tell me.

♪ [guitar music] ♪ With parts of our hearts torn away ♪ And then out of the clear blue sky, literally- ♪ Just existing makes dying look easy.

♪ [laughs] And I went, "Oooo."

- Wow - "That's really good.

Do that again."

- [laughs] ♪ Just existing makes dying look easy.

♪ ♪ But maybe tomorrow I've done enough dying today.

♪ I went, "Good Lord.

"That's- that's good.

"Write a second verse, Larry."

♪ Blah blah blah blah blah.

♪ It was worse than the first blah blah blah.

- [laughs] I worked on it for an hour.

So I wal- I finally put the guitar down, walked back up the stairs, walked across the kitchen floor to go get in bed with Janice, and I said, "How am I going to sleep now?

"I'll never be able to go to sleep- "I'm nev- I'm not going to be- a how will I sleep now?"

[sighs] I turned around, walked back across the kitchen down the stairs- "What?"

♪ How will I sleep now?

♪ ♪ You tell me.

♪ ♪ With only my arm by my side.

♪ ♪ Perhaps, I'll learn sleeping all over ♪ ♪ And just maybe without dreaming this time ♪ And then I went, ah, wha-a-a- ♪ Who- who'll make you laugh now?

♪ ♪ You tell me.

♪ ♪ Since you've sent your clown on his way, ♪ ♪ I don't think I'll cry, just die laughing- ♪ And I went, "Again."

♪ But maybe tomorrow.

♪ ♪ I've done enough dying today.

♪ ♪ Oooooo ♪ It's my favorite song I've ever written, it wasn't a big hit.

Ah, I, I, I wish somebody would, ah, grab a hold of it and do it.

But if somebody asked me to sing one song, one country song, if they ask me to sing one song, I'd sing, "The Love of God."

Do you know that one?

- I don't know that one.

- Oh, you'll love it.

♪ The love of God is greater far ♪ ♪ Than tongue or pen could ever tell.

♪ ♪ It goes beyond the highest star ♪ ♪ And reaches to the lowest well.

♪ ♪ Oh, love of God, how rich, how pure, ♪ ♪ How measureless and strong.

♪ ♪ It shall forevermore more endure ♪ ♪ The saints and ages song- ♪ - It's- I love that song.

Now, the greatest verse in the English language that Kris Kristofferson didn't write, listen to this one- - [laughs] - Listen to this one.

[strums guitar] ♪ Could we, with ink, the ocean fill ♪ ♪ And were the sky of parchment made?

♪ ♪ Were every stalk- ♪ - Stalk- every bra- ♪ On earth a quill.

♪ ♪ And every man a scribe by trade ♪ ♪ To write the love of God above ♪ ♪ Would drain the ocean dry, ♪ ♪ Nor could the scroll contain the whole ♪ ♪ Though stretched from sky to sky.

♪ - It was found written on the walls of an insane asylum.

- Wow.

- Nobody knows who wrote it.

- Uh-huh.

- It kind of makes you wonder, who's crazy and who's not.

- [laughs] - You know, what- what's interesting to me is, you, you, you delightfully played this great song and- and when I asked you to play something you're really proud of- and that song began with a- with a melody.

- Mmmm-hmm.

- But you take such joy, obvious joy, in lyrics, um, I mean, the recitation- uh, and, do they, do they never come together?

Is it almost always a foundation of music before the torrent of words appear?

- Well, they, they come in all different shapes and sizes and, you know, kind of like, we human beings- we're all unique and we're all different, but, ah, sometimes, I'll get a little melody and say that- that's pretty good.

But, usually, it's something I read or something I- I, I, I tell people, "The, ha, the poor players "who strut and fret their hour up on the stage in my brain "all speak perfect Shakespearean iambic pentameter."

- [laughs] - I'm telling you, and I've told people this six months ago, I told Janice, [speaking in iambic pentameter] "Honey, I'm going to the store to get tomatoes, "when I come home I'm going to go play some golf."

It came- that's, that's the way my- So, I think every time somebody says a word, or not every time, but when somebody will say an interesting word, I'll rhyme it.

You know, or I'll go exactly opposite of it.

That's just the way this goofy brain works.

[clears throat] But, I, I, I did a little songwriter, ah, class, creative writing class, out in West Texas at the University of Texas, the Permian base in Odessa, at my, my old hometown.

And I tell people Nashville- Texas, Odessa is my home, Nashville's my home away from home, and it's a great home away from home to have and I'm grateful for it.

But still, if you want to write, read.

You know, Faulkner said, "Read everything.

"Read bad writing so you know what it sounds like."

Ah, Ernest Hemingway said, "When I start to write, "I sit down at my typewriter and bleed."

He said, "My job every morning "is to try to write one true sentence."

So, I tell- I told, I told the kids, "You want to write, read.

If you want to write, listen- -Yeah.

- "Especially to yourself."

I listen to myself walking across- How, how will I sleep now?

How- what'll I do now?

Listen to cab drivers.

Listen to the wind.

Listen to your mama.

- [laughs] -Well, you know, we've- I've talked to dozens of members of the Hall of Fame and, and the, the impossible question is always how the art emerges, how it happens.

The alchemy that leads to a successful song, but I think you've, actually, shared with us the closest thing to watching somebody write a song.

Your discovery process was just fascinating, um, so, "thank you" for that.

Um, you know, in the, in the time we have left, I, I do not dare go any further without asking you to talk about, "All The Gold In California," which one of the biggest- well, probably the biggest hit of your career, but also one of the biggest hits in the history of popular and country music.

Where did that come from?

- Well, I "Thank you" for asking.

I'm very grateful, again, for that song.

Here's, here's what happened.

[tuning guitar] Let me tune this booger up.

We might have to do a- because I'm on TV I ain't going to play this sucker out of tune.

Basically, since Chet gave it to me- Vince gave it to me.

In 19-1965, I was a senior at Odessa High School in Miss Ann Louise Jones' Senior English class.

[clears throat] About halfway through the, the spring semester, she said, "Larry- - [laughs] "I want you to do a special ah, ah, "ah, a book report for extra credit "on, ah, ah, "The Grapes of Wrath."

"I think, you'll like that book by John Steinbeck."

I said, "Who are you kidding?

"I don't need any extra credit."

"First of all," I said, "I've made all A's "and second of all, I'm your favorite."

She said, "Larry Gatlin, you're a mess.

"I want you to do it.

You need to know this book."

I wrote the book report.

[clears throat] I got an A- 1965 that was.

Thirteen years later I was stuck in a traffic jam at the Hollywood Bowl in LA.

I was on my way to go have a meeting [clears throat] uh, at, at Warner Brothers Music with Mr. Mo Ostin, the iconic, you know, record producer there at Warner Brothers.

And, ah, I'm stuck in this traffic jam.

Right in front of me was a 1958 Mercury station wagon with Oklahoma license plate.

There were kids hanging out the window, pots and pans.

I don't, I don't really think they had that mattress tied to the top of it.

But, but, for our purpose I'm gonna say it did.

And I said to myself- I have no internal dialogue, it's all external, as y'all can tell, you'll have to edit a lot of this.

I said, "Good Lord, those poor Okies are coming out here "to California to get rich and famous.

"They think- you know, it looks like the Joad family "from "Grapes of Wrath."

"They are going to find out all too quickly "that all the gold in California is in a bank "in the middle of Beverly Hills in somebody else's name."

- [laughs] - I took the pen out of my saddlebags and took the Hertz Rent-a-Car slip and wrote all the gold in California bank in the middle of Beverly.

The light changed.

The traffic jam broke up.

I went over to my meeting with Mr. Ostin.

When I got out of the meeting it was 5 [clears throat] it was 5:07 on the clock in the car, the rent car.

I knew that I had to leave by 5:15 to get back to another meeting back around the mountain, the same- So, I sat there in eight minutes wrote- [sings] ♪ All the gold in California ♪ ♪ is in a bank in the middle of Beverly Hills ♪ ♪ in somebody else's name.

♪ ♪ So, if you're dreaming about California, ♪ ♪ it don't matter at all where you played before.

♪ ♪ California's a brand new game.

♪ [guitar music] I finished it in 8 minutes.

[clears throat] Started the car went back for my meeting around, around the mountain.

Went back- [clears throat] Steve, Rudy, and I were, were kind of between record deals after, ah, Fred Foster, ah, allowed me to buy myself out.

He knew that his company was not doing that well and he had cut- recorded some of the greatest records.

The record business was changing, a little independent couldn't, couldn't keep up.

So, he sold, uh, that very graciously and I'm grateful to Fred.

He had my best interest at heart and the brothers- sold it to Columbia.

We released it and six months later, it was the number one country song in the world.

Uh, ain't God good.

And it's the most important, uh, three minutes of, ah, our lives, Fr- you know, from career, ah, standpoint.

So, I'm, I'm very grateful, and , and I'm grateful to Miss Anna Louise Jones, and to John Steinbeck, and to the Tom Joad, and the Joad family, and that, that whole book, and for falling in love with Jane, the, huh, you know, Dick and Jane Fun with Dick and Jane, Tim and Spot and Puff, and Tim.

I just love the words.

I was writing with John Rich one day at my little brother- I love John.

And, ah, we wrote a song.

He said, "You're crazy."

I said, "Yeah."

[chuckles] I said, "It takes one to know one, kind of."

He said, "I've written with a lot of people. "

He didn't say I was better or worse.

He just said, "It's different."

What?

What?

He said, "What the hell are you thinking about?"

- [laughs] - I said, "Well, I'm not thinking about anything.

"I'm, I'm I'm thinking about where we are."

He said, "Well how do you write song-?"

I said, "Well, I think Willie's the best first run line- "maybe first line songwriter. "

Ah, ah, Chris is the, the most well read, and the most cerebrally intelligent.

He was a William Blake scholar and, of course, I love- William Blake's, one of my favorite poets also.

And, and Johnny Cash was- just came up out of the dirt.

I mean, God, just- She just say- I believe God's a woman, they create everything we don't have much to do with it, the women create- Ah, God just reached out.

She just reached down and just said, "I'm just going to just drag Johnny Cash out of the mud "of of that Dyess, Arkansas- "that dyke that they built to keep the wat- "How high's the water mama?"

you know, and, and- and Roger is the zaniest and the clever- and Newberry's the saddest.

And, out of all of those people, they have different ways of doing it- I told John, I said, "Some people write a line at a time "or a wor- "I, I, I try to write- I try to write a syllable that-" Does that make sense?

-[chuckles] You've only got three minutes, eh, eh, eh, you know, and I can- but I think Chris was writing when he wrote, "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

I woke up Sunday morning with no way to hold my ha- hold my head that didn't hurt hur- hold my head.

The beer I had for breakfast, wasn't bad, so, I had one more- He might not have thought he was doing that, but he was writing a syllable at a time and the, the incredible internal rhyme in the alliteration and the, the rhyme schemes.

Uh, uh, eh, eh, if Chris had not read, "Tyger tyger burning bright.

"In the forests of the night; "What immortal hand or eye, "Could frame thy fearful symmetry."

If he hadn't read William Blake.

If he hadn't read, "Under the wide and starry sky."

See, a lot of Chris's songs are an A-A-A-B rhyme scheme.

They're hard to write.

They are very hard to write where you rhyme the first three, don't rhyme the last one and then the next- If he had not read, "Under the wide and starry sky, "Dig my grave and let me lie, "Glad will I live and gladly die.

"And I lay me down with a will.

"This be the words you grave- grave, the grave, engrave.

"These be the verse you grave for me; "Home is the sailor, home from the sea, "And the hunter home from the hill."

If he hadn't read "Requiem" by Robert Louis Stevenson, he wouldn't have done it- so somebody way back there started this songwriter deal, you know.

Probably the woman who, the, the, old boy came in the cave - [laughs] and, and and tried to hit her with the club and he took the club away from him and beat him and said, "You ain't going to do that anymore, pal, "that's over."

And she wrote a song about it, uh, you know, "You ain't going to set this hen no more.

"Now I've got the pill," It could have been Loretta's great answer.

That's where they come from.

Uh, so, I know that's a long, uh, ah- But, what the hell, It's about me.

[sighs] - [chuckles] - I don't mean that.

I am so grateful to those people- And see, mine came from books.

I, I really write prose that rhymes at the end.

I don't sit down to write a poem or, it- you know, that, that's where I come from.

Harlan Howard came from the assembly line in Detroit.

Those were his books that is- that was his deal.

-Yeah.

- All people don't, you know- Vince told me one time, He said, "I don't really read."

he said, "I'm out playing golf."

He said, "I don't, I, I, I don't read a lot of books "and I just don't care."

I said, "Yes, you do.

"Your books were called, Hank Thompson, Bob Wills.

"Every song that they ever wrote, you devoured it "and you- those were your books.

"That's what it was."

So we all come about it from a, a different, a different place.

And, and believe me, I'm not trying to- yeah, I'm a little bit of a book nerd and, and, you know, eh, eh, proud of that, but I'm more thankful for it than I am proud of it.

So, Roger and Willie and Dottie and John Cash- You want to hear the greatest, greatest love song ever written?

-Yes.

I do.

- [laughs] - [strums guitar] ♪ I keep a close watch on this heart of mine.

♪ ♪ I keep my eyes wide open all the time.

♪ ♪ I keep the ends out for the tie that binds ♪ - Greatest line ever written about a woman in the history of the world.

♪ Because you're mine.

♪ ♪ I walk the line.

♪ It's the greatest love song ever written.

What more can you say about a woman then, "Because you're mine, I walk the line?"

- But did Johnny Cash really mean it?

- Well, he meant it two or three times, probably.

- [laughing] - It has been such a pleasure talking to you about song writing.

- I haven't worn you out?

- You have not.

You, you have been a- you're clearly a student and a professor of the subject and, ah, this has been a very special edition of the show.

Thank you, Larry Gatlin.

- I thank you.

[gentle guitar music] [gentle guitar music] For more information about the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame, please visit, nashvillesongwriters foundation.com