>>> THE JURY HAS SPOKEN.

WHAT IT SAID AND WHAT IT MEANS.

[ music ] >>> WELCOME TO COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD, ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL MEN IN OHIO'S POLITICAL HISTORY FACES UP TO 20 YEARS IN PRISON.

FORMER TWO-TIME OHIO HOUSE SPEAKER LARRY HOUSEHOLDER IS GUILTY OF LEADING A BRIBERY SCHEME THAT LED TO A BILLION-DOLLAR BAILOUT OF TWO NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS.

THE JURY ALSO FOUND LOBBYIST AND FORMER GOP CHAIR MATT BORGES GUILTY OF THE SAME RACKETEERING CHARGE.

>> ME MADE CLEAR THIS IS A VICTORY FOR OHIO.

THIS IS A VICTORY FOR OHIO.

YOU CANNOT SELL THE PUBLIC TRUST.

YOU CANNOT SELL THE PUBLIC TRUST.

IT IS NOT FOR SALE.

AND YOU CANNOT CONSPIRE WITH OTHERS TO SELL THE PUBLIC TRUST.

>> HOUSEHOLDER ARGUED HE WAS JUST SUPPORTING LEGISLATION HE BELIEVED IN, AND HE PROMISED TO APPEAL.

>> THE JUSTICE SYSTEM IS WHAT IT IS.

AND THERE'S A PROCESS.

THIS IS ONE STEP IN THE PROCESS.

AND WE'RE GOING TO BE UTILIZED EVERY PROCESS WE CAN IN THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM UNTIL WE GET IT RIGHT.

>> LAURA BISCHOFF YOU WERE THERE FOR THE ENTIRE TRIAL, SEVEN WEEKS OF TESTIMONY, EXHIBITS.

NINE HOURS IN THE JURY ROOM, THE JURY SEEMS PRETTY CONVINCED.

>> YEAH, THE PROSECUTION INTRODUCED 900 EXHIBITS, AND HAD, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF EVIDENCE OVER ROUGHLY FOUR-YEAR PERIOD, FROM AUGUST OF 2016 UNTIL MARCH OR SO OF 2020.

AND IT DIDN'T TAKE LONG FOR THE JURY TO DISPENSE ITS VERDICT.

NOW, I WOULD SAY THAT SINCE IT'S ONE CHARGE THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE MEETING THE REQUIREMENTS FOR MULTIPLE CHARGES, BUT THEY DECIDED THAT THEY COMMITTED AT LEAST TWO OF THE UNDERLYING PREDICATE OFFENSES, WHICH WERE BRIBERY, MONEY LAUNDERING, WIRE FRAUD, INTERSTATE COMMERCE, ET CETERA.

>> AND WHAT DO YOU THINK MADE THE DIFFERENCE IN THE TRIAL, SEVEN WEEKS OF TEXT MESSAGES, SECRET RECORDINGS, CORROBORATING WITNESSES, LARRY HOUSEHOLDER HIMSELF.

WHAT WAS THE KEY?

>> WELL, THIS IS ACTUALLY SOMETHING I SAID PREVIOUSLY ON THE SHOW WHICH IS THAT THERE'S MATTERS OF LAW, WHICH OBVIOUSLY THIS CASE HAD A LOT OF THEM BUT IT'S A POLITICAL CORRUPTION CASE.

I THINK AS THE JURORS KIND OF SAW THIS HAPPENING THEY GET TO SEE, FOR INSTANCE LIKE MATT GORGES'S CLOSING STATEMENT, THIS WASN'T ILLEGAL.

WHEN YOU'RE IN THAT POSITION YOU'RE IN A TENUOUS TO POSITION TO ASK THE JUDGE BASICALLY YOUR FUTURE, WHAT HAPPENED, ALTHOUGH MY COLLEAGUE DID TALK TO SOME OBSERVERS OF THE TRIAL AND THEY DIDN'T FEEL THAT HOUSEHOLDER CHOOSING TO TESTIFY IN HIS OWN DEFENSE REALLY BENEFITTED HIM AT ALL, AND POSSIBLY EVEN HURT HIM.

>> GET TO THAT IN A SECOND.

THERE WAS TALK FI BEGINNING OF THE TRIAL THAT THE JURY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND COMPLEX CAMPAIGN FINANCE LAWS AND HOW IT WORKS AND WHO CAN COORDINATE WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THEY DID.

>> WELL, I MEAN, I THINK IT GOT DOWN TO A LOT OF THIS WAS BASICALLY WHO'S TELLING THE TRUTH, AND WHO'S NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.

AND I THINK PEOPLE GET THAT, WHETHER, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD ARGUE, WELL, DO THEY UNDERSTAND THE PROCESS OF HOW A BILL BECOMES LAW, AND, YOU KNOW, THE THINGS THAT ARE INVOLVED IN THAT.

THAT DIDN'T MATTER.

IT'S LIKE, WHO'S TELLING THE TRUTH, AND WHO'S LYING?

I AGREE WITH ANDREW.

I THINK THAT HOUSEHOLDER GOING ON THE STAND, I KNEW HE WOULD, THE EGO IS TOO BIG FOR HIM NOT TO.

BUT I THINK HE REALLY SCREWED HIMSELF OVER FOR DOING THAT.

>> LAURA, CROSS-EXAMINATION, DID WELL THE FIRST DAY, SECOND DAY THE CROSS DIDN'T DO AS WELL.

>> IT WAS AN INTERESTING MATCHUP OF SKILLS, LARRY HOUSEHOLDER IS A LONGTIME POLITICIAN WHO'S USED TO CONVINCING PEOPLE OF HIS POINT OF VIEW.

HE TURNED DOWN A LOT OF -- WITH THE APPALACHIAN CHARM.

NEXT DAY HE WENT UP AGAINST THE ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY WITH ANOTHER SKILLSET.

SHE DIDN'T BOBBLE THE BALL AT ALL, VERY WELL PREPARED.

SHE BASICALLY UNRELENTING QUESTION AFTER QUESTION, WHERE HE -- YOU KNOW, HE CLAIMED THAT HE DELETED HIS TEXT MESSAGES BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT TO PAY STORAGE FEES AND HE WAS TOO FRUGAL TO DO SO YET HE WAS WILLING TO SHELL OUT, HE SAYS HE PAID FOR HIS WORLD SERIES TICKETS, WHICH WERE AVERAGING $2,500 APIECE.

HE SAID HE WANTED TO RETURN TO POLITICS TO DEAL WITH DIVISIVENESS AND SHE'S LIKE ROLL THE TAPE.

AND THERE'S A CLIP OF HIM SAYING SOMETHING VULGAR, AND DIVISIVE.

>> LEGAL FOLKS WE'VE TALKED TO SAID THAT BECAUSE HE WAS LOSING SO BAD IN THE TRIAL THAT HOUSEHOLDER HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO TRY TO EXPLAIN WHAT HE WAS DOING WITH THE HOUSE BILL 6, THE BAILOUT LAW.

THAT'S WHY HE CHOSE TO TESTIFY.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, HE DID CHOOSE TO TESTIFY IN HIS OWN DEFENSE.

THAT PROBABLY WAS NOT THE BEST THING TO DO.

I MEAN, THEY'RE CALLED LAWYERS FOR A REASON, RIGHT?

AND YOU HIRE LAWYERS SO THAT THEY CAN DEFEND YOUR POSITION.

AND EVERYTHING THAT THE FORMER SPEAKER PUT OUT THERE THAT THE PROSECUTION WAS ABLE TO BAT IT DOWN, WITH OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE.

SO HE DID NOT DO HIMSELF A FAVOR, AND HENCE, YOU KNOW, HE WAS ALREADY IN AN UPHILL BATTLE.

YOU KNOW, GOING AND TESTIFYING IN HIS OWN DEFENSE DID NOT DO HIM ANY FAVORS AT ALL.

>> MATT BORGES DID NOT TESTIFY BUT HE ALSO DID NOT TAKE WHAT WAS REPORTED AS A PLEA DEAL, GET SIX MONTHS IN PRISON, COOPERATE, LIKE HIS OTHER CO-DEFENDANTS DID, ANY REGRETS, ANDREW, ON HIS PART HE DIDN'T TAKE THAT?

>> I KNOW HE SAID HE FELT LIKE HE DID THE RIGHT THING.

WE WERE DISCUSSING THE FACT OF HOUSEHOLDER TESTIFYING MIGHT HAVE HAD ON HIS CASE.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY WAS SAYING HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ACQUITTED HAD HE NOT TESTIFIED.

IT WAS AN EITHER/OR SITUATION.

WE'RE LOOKING AT BOTH OF THESE MEN SERVING PROBABLY YEARS IN PRISON, AND I'M SURE THEY'RE GOING TO BE ASKING THEMSELVES MAYBE THINGS WOULD HAVE TURNED OUT DIFFERENTLY HAD THEY PLED.

>> THEY USED A RACKETEERING CHARGE, WHICH IS USUALLY RESERVED FOR THE MAFIA.

THEY CALLED THIS POLITICAL CORRUPTION SCHEME RACKETEERING, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?

>> I THINK IT WAS FAIR, AND I THINK IT WAS RIGHT THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DID CHARGE THEM WITH THAT.

I MEAN, WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW THIS ALL DEVELOPED, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE RUMORS WE HEARD, AND CAP SQUARE ABOUT FIRST ENERGY HAVING THIS DARK MONEY FUND, I MEAN THIS WAS SOMETIME IN 20 -- LATE 2017 BEFORE ANY ELECTION STUFF HAPPENED.

THEN THE ELECTION COMES, THE PRIMARY, AND ALL OF THIS GENERATION NOW MONEY IS COMING IN ON BEHALF OF TEAM HOUSEHOLDER AND HIS CANDIDATES.

I MEAN, AND THEN YOU CAN EVEN GO BACK TO 2017 WHERE THERE WAS MONEY THAT WAS GIVEN TO THE STATE PARTY, THE OHIO REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT THEN WENT TO THE CUYAHOGA COUNTY REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE SUMMIT COUNTY REPUBLICAN PARTY, THEN THEY CUT CHECKS TO HOUSEHOLDER.

I MEAN, IT'S -- YOU KNOW, IT WAS OUT THERE.

I MEAN, THEY HAD THIS PLANNED FOR A LONG TIME, AND NOW I THINK THAT QUALIFIES.

>> DERRICK, ANY CONCERN THAT THIS IS -- IN SOME SENSE, WAS HARDBALL POLITICS, MAYBE CROSS -- THE JURY THINKS THEY CROSSED THE LINE USING RACKETEERING TO GO AFTER POLITICS, GOVERNMENT, THE PUBLIC'S BUSINESS.

>> YOU'VE GOT TO LOOK AT THIS HOLISTICALLY.

YOU HAD AN ORGANIZATION WHICH WAS FIRST ENERGY, WHICH WAS NOW ENERGY HARBOR, RIGHT?

AND THEY WERE BASICALLY THE BANK TO THIS DARK MONEY FUND.

AND YOU HAD FORMER SPEAKER HOUSEHOLDER WHO SHOULD NOT HAVE HAD ANY INTERACTION WHATSOEVER WITH THIS DARK MONEY FUND.

HE SHOULD HAVE NOT KNOWN ANYTHING THAT WAS GOING ON WITH THAT FUND.

BUT THE PROSECUTION WAS ABLE TO PROVE THAT HE ACTUALLY WAS MANIPULATING THE FUND, AND MANIPULATING THE MESSAGES THAT CAME OUT OF THIS FUND.

SO, YOU KNOW, THE -- I MEAN, THE RACKETEERING CHARGE IT SEEMS TO BE VALID.

>> ALL RIGHT, THE CASE MAY NOT BE OVER, IF HOUSEHOLDER TOOK BRIBES, SOMEONE HAD TO BRIBE HIM.

NO INDIVIDUALS HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH THAT.

THERE'S ALSO SAM RANDAZZO, THE FBI RAIDED HIS HOUSE IN COLUMBUS, AND FIRST ENERGY ADMITTED IT PAID HIM SOME $4 MILLION TO USE HIS ROLE AS CHAIR OF THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION TO SUPPORT THE COMPANY'S EFFORT.

TOBIAS FIRST TO SAM RANDAZZO, ANY -- VERY LITTLE SINCE THE FBI RAIDED HIS CONDO.

>> THAT'S BEEN A BIG QUESTION PEOPLE HAVE HAD FOR YEARS AT THIS POINT NOW.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS FOR THAT.

IT IS CURIOUS YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANYBODY, PROSECUTORS ARE NAMING THESE PEOPLE IN COURT BUT YOU DON'T HAVE PEOPLE FROM THE FIRST ENERGY CORPORATION ITSELF ACTUALLY TESTIFYING.

SO I'VE TALKED TO PEOPLE ABOUT THIS.

SOME THOUGHTS MAYBE IT HAS TO DO WITH TIMING.

YOU KNOW, BUT IT'S UNCLEAR WHERE THINGS ARE GOING NEXT.

>> ANY INDICATION, LAURA, THAT MORE CHARGES COULD BE COMING?

>> SO KENT BARKER WAS RADIO SILENT ON THAT.

YOU KNOW, TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT WHY THEY DID IT THE WAY THEY DID IT, I THINK THAT THERE'S A STRATEGY IN THAT IF THEY HAD BLOWN DOWN A WHOLE BUNCH MORE DEFENDANTS ONTO THE HOUSEHOLDER AND BORGES TRIAL IT COULD HAVE BECOME MORE UNWIELDY AND MORE DIFFICULT FOR JURORS TO FOLLOW.

THERE WAS A STRATEGIC DECISION, I THINK, BY PARKER'S OFFICE TO GO WITH THESE GUYS FIRST.

WE'LL SEE IF THEY GO TO THE NEXT LEVEL.

>> SHOULD -- IF YOU -- SHOULD THE EXECUTIVE -- THE COMPANY HAS AGREED TO PAY A FINE FOR INAPPROPRIATE INFLUENCE OF SAM RANDAZZO.

BOB, SHOULD THE EXECUTIVES WHO SIGNED OFF ON THAT, THEY'VE LOST THEIR JOBS AND SHOULD THEY ALSO BE CHARGED WITH A CRIME?

>> SURE.

IF THEY WERE INVOLVED IN THE DECISION-MAKING OF THIS, I MEAN, THEY SHOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE.

AND I KNOW THERE'S SOME STOCKHOLDER LAWSUITS OUT THERE AGAINST FIRST ENERGY, AND ITS EXECUTIVES AT THAT TIME.

AND, I MEAN, YOU HAD STOCKHOLDERS, YOU HAVE PENSION.

THERE'S, I THINK, CALIFORNIA'S PUBLIC PENSION FUND IS INVOLVED IN A LAWSUIT.

I MEAN, THERE WERE INDIVIDUALS THAT LOST MONEY BECAUSE OF WHAT FIRST ENERGY DID.

AND THEY'VE GOT TO BE MADE WHOLE.

>> SENTENCING IS NEXT, IT WILL TAKE A FEW MONTHS BECAUSE OF THE FEDERAL PROCESS OF DOING THAT.

DERRICK, UP TO 20 YEARS, BUT IS -- FIRST CONVICTION, ONE PERSON PLAYED A LARGER ROLE IN THIS CONSPIRACY THAN THE OTHER, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE FAIR SENTENCE WOULD BE FOR LARRY HOUSEHOLDER AND MATT BORGES?

>> THIS IS THE LARGEST SCANDAL THAT OHIO'S EVER SEEN.

I MEAN, $61 MILLION, I THINK THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND THE FBI ARE DEFINITELY WANTING TO MAKE EXAMPLES OF THIS PARTICULAR CASE.

YOU HEARD THE U.S. DISTRICT -- YOU HEARD THE U.S.

ATTORNEYS SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, THE PUBLIC'S INTEREST IS NOT FOR SALE.

I THINK THAT THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE EXAMPLES OF EVERYBODY THAT'S BEEN INVOLVED, YOU KNOW, TWO PEOPLE PLED GUILTY.

ONE CORPORATION FLED GUILTY.

AND THERE WAS A SUICIDE THAT CAME OUT OF THIS.

SO THIS IS A VERY DARK PERIOD IN OHIO POLITICS.

AND, YOU KNOW, YOU -- I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'LL GET THE MAXIMUM SENTENCE BUT THEY'RE GOING TO GET SEVERAL YEARS.

>> THE APPEAL PROCESS, THEY'VE BOTH SIDE THEY'RE GOING TO APPEAL.

SEVERAL OTHER HIGH-PROFILE POLITICAL CONVICTIONS HAVE BEEN OVERTURNED ON APPEAL.

WHAT'S THE BASIS, ARE YOU HEARING, THAT THEY MIGHT APPEAL THIS, LAURA?

>> IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE YOU SAW HOUSEHOLDER'S LEGAL TEAM ACCUSE THE JUDGE OF BIAS ON TWO DIFFERENT INSTANCES DURING THE SEVEN-WEEK TRIAL.

SO THEY MAY TRY TO GET SOME FOOTING ON THAT LEVEL.

JUDGE BLACK IS A DEMOCRAT WHO WAS APPOINTED BY I THINK BARACK OBAMA.

AND HE ALSO RAN FOR OHIO SUPREME COURT BACK IN 2000 AGAINST DEBORAH COOK AND LARRY HOUSEHOLDER WAS RAISING MONEY INTO THE DARK MONEY GROUP THAT BENEFITTED COOK AT THE TIME.

THEY TRIED TO SAY THERE WAS A BIAS THERE.

>> MATT BORGES CAME INTO THIS LATE, HE WORKED ON THE REPEAL, THE EFFORTS TO DEFEAT THE REPEAL EFFORT.

HE WAS CONVICTED OF GIVING A BRIBE TO A PERSON WORKING ON THAT CAMPAIGN, HIS COMPETITOR.

COULD HE ARGUE THAT HE GOT SWEPT UP IN THIS AND IT WASN'T FAIR TO TRY HIM WITH LARRY HOUSEHOLDER, BASIS FOR AN APPEAL?

>> I KNOW THAT THAT'S SOMETHING PEOPLE HAD DISCUSSED, WHETHER ONE PERSON MIGHT GET ACQUITTED AND ONE MIGHT NOT AND WHO WOULD THAT BE?

THE FACT IS, THE WAY THE RACKETEERING STATUTE IS WRITTEN IT'S PRETTY POWERFUL.

YOU DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO KNOW ALL ELEMENTS OF THE CONSPIRACY IN ORDER TO BE FOUND GUILTY UNDER THE CONSPIRACY AS LONG AS THE PREDICATE OFFENSES ARE MET.

SO I'M SURE, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A LEGAL EXPERT.

I'M SURE HE WILL APPEAL AND TRY TO FIND A REASON TO DO IT.

IF ANYTHING ELSE IT SHOWS HOW STRONG THE STATUTE IS, AND HOW IT CAN BE USED IN CASES LIKE THIS.

>> A LONG PROCESS.

WHATEVER HAPPENS.

THIS WAS NOT LARRY HOUSEHOLDER'S FIRST TANGLE WITH THE FBI AND FEDERAL PROSECUTORS, BACK IN THE EARLY 2000s DURING HIS FIRST TERM AS SPEAKER INVESTIGATORS LOOKED INTO ALLEGATIONS OF MONEY LAUNDERING AND IMPROPER CAMPAIGN TACTICS.

THAT CASE CLOSED WITH NO CHARGES AGAINST HIM OR HIS AIDES.

20 YEARS LATER, AFTER MOUNTING HIS REMARKABLE COMEBACK, INVESTIGATORS RETURNED, AND THIS TIME THEY GATHERED ENOUGH EVIDENCE FOR A CONVICTION.

BOB CLEGG, I MEAN, HIS POLITICAL CAREER, LARRY HOUSEHOLDER'S CAREER IS INCREDIBLE, SMALL TOWN, SPEAKER TWICE, COMEBACK.

BUT THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN A CLOUD OF SUSPICION AROUND HIM.

>> YEAH.

AND FOR GOOD REASON.

I MEAN, HE'S LEAVING -- WHEN HE WAS TERM LIMITED THE FIRST TIME IN THE EARLY 2000s HE'S GOT, LIKE YOU SAID, THE FEDS WERE ON HIS TAIL AS HE'S LEAVING TOWN.

AND THEN HE BECOMES THE PERRY COUNTY AUDITOR BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WHAT ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO DO BUT BE PERRY COUNTY AUDITOR?

WHILE HE'S AUDITOR HE'S FOUND THAT HE USED COUNTY EMPLOYEES ON COUNTY TIME RENOVATING A BAR THAT HE HAD JUST BOUGHT.

OKAY?

I MEAN, IT NEVER ENDS WITH THIS GUY.

WHAT I FOUND AMAZING WAS WHEN HE DOES COME BACK HE GETS THIS -- AND IT WAS PRETTY OBVIOUS WHAT HE WAS GOING TO DO, HE GETS A SCHEME GOING WHERE HE'S GOING TO BE SPEAKER AGAIN.

WHAT DOES HE DO?

HE DOES -- YOU KNOW, HE COULDN'T GET A MAJORITY OF REPUBLICANS TO VOTE FOR HIM FOR SPEAKER, SO WHAT DOES HE DO?

GO TO THE DEMOCRATS.

AND FIRST TIME THAT EVER HAPPENED.

HE OPENED THAT DOOR WHERE, OH, WE'RE GOING TO CUT A DEAL WITH THE DEMOCRATS, AND I'LL GET ELECTED SPEAKER.

AND IT WORKED.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHY UNFORTUNATELY DEMOCRATS GOT TO TAKE PART OF THE BLAME OF THIS BECAUSE THEY PROVIDED THE VOTES THAT MADE HIM SPEAKER, AND THEY PROVIDED THE VOTES THAT PASSED HOUSE BILL 6 BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH REPUBLICAN VOTES TO PASS IT.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, HE DID SET A PRECEDENT OF DEMOCRATS VOTING FOR REPUBLICAN SPEAKERS BECAUSE WE SEE THAT NOW.

BUT, YOU KNOW, NOT ONE DEMOCRAT CONSPIRED WITH A CORPORATION TO PARTICIPATE IN THE $61 MILLION BRIBERY SCHEME.

>> USED BY LARRY HOUSEHOLDER.

I GUESS THEY WEREN'T SMART ENOUGH TO FIGURE THAT ONE OUT.

>> IT'S AMAZING HOW YOU TRY TO SPIN THIS.

THIS IS ALL ON LARRY HOUSEHOLDER, FIRST ENERGY, ENERGY HARBOR, AND -- >> VOTE TO PASS HOUSE BILL 6, AND AMELIA SIKES, CONGRESSWOMAN AMELIA SIKES, AND LABOR UNIONS PUSHED NINE DEMOCRATS TO VOTE FOR IT.

THAT'S THE ONLY WAY IT GOT PASSED.

>> LARRY HOUSEHOLDER WAS FOUND GUILTY YESTERDAY OF A $61 MILLION BRIBERY SCHEME.

>> WHICH HE COULDN'T HAVE DONE IF HE WASN'T SPEAKER.

>> HE WAS A REPUBLICAN AND HE WAS A SPEAKER AT THE TIME.

>> YOU WERE THERE FOR THE EARLY INVESTIGATION AS WELL.

DID THE FACT THAT THERE WERE NO CHARGES IN THAT EARLY 2000s INVESTIGATION AGAINST LARRY HOUSEHOLDER, DID THAT EMBOLDEN HIM TO CONTINUE INTO THIS PHASE?

>> I THINK THE FACT THAT HE WAS -- HE WAS NEVER INDICTED OR CHARGED OR ARRESTED IN THAT ALLEGED PAY TO PLAY SCHEME BACK THEN I THINK, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE WILLING TO GIVE HIM A SECOND CHANCE, MAYBE SAY HE WAS THE VICTIM OF, YOU KNOW, GOVERNMENT BULLIES, WHAT HAVE YOU, AND SO YES, A BUNCH OF THEM VOTED FOR HIM, INCLUDING DEMOCRATS, FOR SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE.

>> AND BOB, YOU WORKED AGAINST HIM.

>> YES, I DID.

>> RECENTLY.

>> WHAT ARE HIS OPPONENTS LIKE THE FOLKS YOU WORKED FOR, WHAT ARE THEY SAYING NOW?

ARE THEY SAYING -- BAD KARMA, WHAT ARE THEY SAYING?

>> WHICH THEY VERY WELL COULD.

NO, I THINK THEY'RE MORE SAD THAT -- YOU KNOW, THOSE OF US ON THE OTHER SIDE COULD SEE WHAT COULD HAPPEN, AND UNFORTUNATELY IT HAPPENED.

I WISH WE COULD HAVE CONVINCED EVERYBODY ELSE THAT WAS ON THE OTHER SIDE -- >> YOU WORKED AGAINST HIM.

>> YEAH, I WORKED AGAINST HIM FROM BEING -- AND ALL THAT GENERATION NOW MONEY WAS SPENT AGAINST MY CLIENTS AND CANDIDATES IN THOSE PRIMARIES.

YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST -- I THINK THEY'RE MORE SAD THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

I DON'T THINK THEY'RE GOING TO BE DOING ANY VICTORY LAPS OVER THIS.

BECAUSE IT'S JUST SAD.

>> HE STILL HAS DEFENDERS IN THE LEGISLATURE?

ANYONE LINING UP SAYING HE WAS WRONGFULLY CONVICTED AT ALL THESE DAYS?

>> THE ONLY PERSON THAT I SAW DEFENDING HIM PUBLICLY WAS SCOTT POLAND, A FORMER LEGISLATIVE CANDIDATE AND POLITICAL -- OF HOUSEHOLDER'S BACK IN THE DAY.

BUT HE ALSO WAS PAID FOR LEGAL ADVICE AND RESEARCH.

SO HE IS, YOU KNOW, HAS SOME SKIN IN THE GAME.

WE'LL SEE AS PEOPLE ARE CONTINUED TO BE ASKED ABOUT THIS.

>> MIKE DeWINE HAD NO COMMENT.

WHEN HE WAS ASKED, HIS SPOKESPERSON WAS ASKED FOR COMMENT YESTERDAY HE SAID NO COMMENT.

HE DIDN'T EVEN SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, THE JURY HAS SPOKEN, THE JUSTICE SYSTEM WORKED, WE SHOULD TRY TO AVOID THIS IN THE FUTURE.

NOT EVEN THAT BLAND.

NO COMMENT.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY?

VERY CAUTIOUS?

>> I THINK HE DOESN'T WANT TO GET ANYWHERE NEAR THIS.

NOW, THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR JOHN HOUSTON I THOUGHT HAD A GREAT COMMENT WHICH IS, YOU KNOW WHAT, THE JUSTICE SYSTEM DOES GET IT RIGHT.

I MEAN, IT DID, I AGREE WITH HIM ON THAT.

I THINK THE GOVERNOR DOESN'T WANT TO GET ANYWHERE NEAR THIS.

>> HE DID APPOINT SAM RANDAZZO.

IS HE WORRIED THE OTHER SHOE COULD DROP HERE AT SOME POINT?

>> IT VERY WELL COULD ON SAM RANDAZZO, AND A NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE AFFILIATED WITH THIS.

YOU KNOW, I AGREE WITH BOB ON THIS, THAT THE -- THE GOVERNOR JUST PROBABLY DID NOT -- DOES NOT WANT TO BE ANYWHERE NEAR THIS SCANDAL, IN ANY WAY.

>> ALL RIGHT.

THE CASE, ALL THOSE TEXT MESSAGES, THOSE SECRET RECORDINGS, THE DESCRIPTIONS OF $400,000 CHECKS IN ENVELOPES EXPOSED THE DIRTY SIDE OF POLITICS AT THE STATE HOUSE.

WE SAW FIRSTHAND HOW BIG MONEY CAN INFLUENCE LAWMAKING.

THE QUESTION NOW IS, WILL IT CONTINUE?

DERRICK CLAY, DO YOU SEE ANY MEANINGFUL CHANGES, REFORMS COMING OUT NOW THAT LARRY HOUSEHOLDER HAS BEEN CONVICTED, NOT JUST INDICTED, BUT CONVICTED?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, SOME ETHICS BILLS THAT HAVE BEEN -- THAT HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED IN THE OHIO LEGISLATURE, REPRESENTATIVE DEREK MAREN PUT OUT AN ETHICS REFORM PACKAGE.

MY QUESTION IS, WHY DOES IT HAVE TO TAKE A SCANDAL FOR LAWMAKERS TO DO ETHICS PACKAGE?

I MEAN, EVERY TWO YEARS THERE'S A NEW CROP OF LEGISLATORS, A NEW GENERAL ASSEMBLY, OPPORTUNITIES TO DO ETHICS PACKAGES, BUT WHY NOW?

THAT'S MY QUESTION.

>> WILL AN ETHICS PACKAGE, DIFFERENT RULES, MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

>> I THINK THE RULING FROM THE JURY IS PROBABLY THE MOST IMPACTFUL THING.

I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S -- IF THEY TWEAK THE ETHICS RULES, OR WHAT HAVE YOU.

I MEAN, IF YOU'RE GOING TO LIE ON YOUR FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE STATEMENT YOU'RE GOING TO LIE ON YOUR FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE STATEMENT.

DOESN'T MATTER HOW STRONG THE MISDEMEANOR LAWS ARE.

I DO THINK THAT THE JURY'S VERDICT DRAWS A BRIGHTER LINE WHEN IT COMES TO DARK MONEY, AND DARK MONEY IS LEGAL.

AND WILL CONTINUE.

BUT MAYBE THIS IS LIKE A CAUTIONARY FLAG, AND DRAWS A MORE CLEAR LINE OF LIKE WHAT IS AND IS NOT ALLOWED.

>> COMMON CAUSE KATHERINE TURSEY SAYS THE GROUPS ARE HERE TO SAY BUT THERE COULD BE MORE DISCLOSURE.

DO YOU SEE ANY OF THAT STUFF HAPPENING?

>> I'LL BE SURPRISED WHEN THIS FIRST CAME DOWN I EXPECTED THERE MIGHT BE SOME KIND OF TRANSPARENCY PUSH.

THERE SEEMED TO BE PARTISAN CONSENSUS AROUND IT.

THE WAY I LOOKED AT IT TOO WAS THAT YOU HAD PEOPLE IN THE -- REPUBLICANS IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE, THE MAJORITY, WHO HAD BEEN TARGETED BY THIS MONEY.

SO YOU SORT OF HAD THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING ON THE BARREL END OF THIS STUFF, ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY MEANINGFUL REFORM.

THERE'S BEEN NO TRANSPARENCY PROPOSALS THAT HAVE COME UP IN THE NEW SESSIONS.

I THINK THAT SOMETHING ELSE THAT STRUCK ME ABOUT THIS IS THAT FIRST ENERGY AND THE PEOPLE BEHIND THIS I THINK THEY WON AN INDUSTRY AWARD FOR THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE CAMPAIGN.

I DON'T THINK YOU'LL SEE ANYTHING LIKE THAT HAPPEN ANYTIME SOON AGAIN.

>> IT WAS EFFECTIVE UNTIL IT WASN'T.

BOB CLEGG, CAN WE ALL BLAME THIS ON CITIZENS UNITED AND THESE DARK MONEY GROUPS AND HOW THE SUPREME COURT SAID THAT YOU CAN GIVE TO THESE AND THEY CAN WORK ON A CAMPAIGN AS LONG AS THERE'S NO CONNECTION, NO AFFILIATION?

>> NO, YOU KNOW WHAT, I THINK IN POLITICS IF YOU WANT THE POWER, AND THIS IS WHAT ALL OF THIS IS ABOUT IS POWER, IF YOU WANT THE POWER, YOU'RE GOING TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO GET IT AND YOU'RE GOING TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO FUND THAT.

WHETHER IT'S LEGAL, WHETHER IT'S ILLEGAL, YOU'RE GOING TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO DO IT.

AND THE AMAZING THING ABOUT ALL OF THIS, I FOUND NONE OF THIS SURPRISING EXCEPT FOR ONE ASPECT.

THAT WAS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ACTUALLY DID SOMETHING.

BECAUSE, I MEAN, THIS KIND OF STUFF, I MEAN, YOU HEARD IT IN THEIR DEFENSE, THIS IS THE WAY THINGS ARE, THIS IS THE WAY THINGS WORK IN POLITICS AND IN GOVERNMENT.

YOU KNOW, YEAH, BUT THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN IT'S RIGHT.

SO, I MEAN, I WAS AMAZED THAT THE FEDS EVEN DID ANYTHING ON THIS AND TRIED TO DO SOMETHING.

>> THE RULE OF LOBBYING IN THE STATE HOUSE, WILL THAT CHANGE?

>> YOU KNOW, YOU'RE ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE LOBBYISTS.

THERE WERE LOBBYISTS YESTERDAY, THERE ARE LOBBYISTS TODAY, THERE WILL BE LOBBYISTS TOMORROW.

IN THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE LOBBYING COMMUNITY ARE LAW-ABIDING, GOOD, WELL-INTENTIONED CITIZENS.

YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST -- YOU KNOW, SCANDALS LIKE THIS BRING A BAD LIGHT ON THE MAJORITY OF THE LOBBYING COMMUNITY.

AND IT'S UNFORTUNATE.

>> I WAS JUST GOING TO COMMENT ABOUT THE SEEKING POWER, MEGAN GAFFENY PAINTER THE ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY WHO GAVE THE REBUTTAL BEFORE THE JURY WENT TO THE DELIBERATION ROOM BROKE IT DOWN IN A TIMELINE WHERE THERE WAS GET THE POWER, WHICH WAS BECOME SPEAKER, USE THE POWER, WHICH WAS PASS HOUSE BILL 6 AND DEFEND IT AGAINST A REFERENDUM ATTEMPT, AND THEN KEEP THE POWER, WHICH LARRY HOUSEHOLDER WAS PLANNING ON, YOU KNOW, CHANGING TERM LIMITS SO THAT HE COULD STAY IN AS SPEAKER FOR AS MUCH AS 16 MORE YEARS.

AND IT DOES ALL BOIL DOWN TO POLITICAL POWER, THIS WHOLE THING.

YOU KNOW, MOST OF THE MONEY THAT WAS IN THAT $61 MILLION OF BRIBERY WAS NOT FOR PERSONAL ENRICHMENT, A GOOD CHUNK WAS, MOST OF IT WENT TO STAFF AND POLLING AND THE REST OF IT.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE LAWMAKERS WHO PLAY IT STRAIGHT, MOST OF THEM DO.

YOU HAVE TO FIGURE, YOU'VE ALWAYS GOT TO RAISE MONEY BUT THIS HAS TO HURT THEM.

>> THERE'S A HOLISTIC EFFECT OF MAKING PEOPLE MORE CYNICAL ABOUT THE PROCESS AND IT GOES BACK TO WHAT I SAID EARLIER WHERE THE JURORS ARE KIND OF BRINGING THEIR OWN PRECONCEPTIONS ABOUT POLITICS AND POLITICIANS TO THIS TRIAL.

WHEN THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPEN, I MEAN, I GUESS ON THE ONE HAND THE STORY IS THAT THERE'S ACCOUNTABILITY.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND THE STORY IS THAT PEOPLE ARE DOING THIS KIND OF THING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AND SO YEAH, I DO THINK THIS KIND OF HURTS THE ASSOCIATION, HURTS EVERYONE.

>> RECORD PARTS SHOTS, BOB CLEGG, UP FIRST.

>> OKAY, CONTINUING ON WITH THIS, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND YOU KNOW WHAT, IT WAS ACTUALLY BIPARTISAN.

THIS WHOLE THING STARTED WITH INVESTIGATIONS AND ARRESTS UNDER THE TRUMP JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND THE FOLLOW-UP AND THE PROSECUTION WAS DONE UNDER THE BIDEN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, AND IT'S GOOD TO SEE THAT BOTH PARTIES WANT TO FIGHT CORRUPTION.

THAT'S GREAT.

>> DERRICK.

>> MARCH MADNESS IS NEXT WEEK.

SPORTS BETTING IS ALIVE AND WELL IN THE STATE OF OHIO, $1 BILLION IN BETS IN THE FIRST MONTH.

SO FOLKS ARE DEFINITELY ONTO THE NEW THING IN BETTING.

>> AND THE FEDS ARE POKING INTO THAT BEFORE THEY GOT HERE.

ANDREW TOBIAS.

>> MY WIFE AND I WELCOMED A NEW BABY TO THE FAMILY THIS WEEK.

>> YAY.

>> VERY EXCITING.

AND I'M ALSO VERY SURPRISED I'M ABLE TO FORM A COMPLETE SENTENCE GIVEN THE LITTLE SLEEP I'VE GOTTEN THIS WEEK.

>> AMEN TO THAT, LAURA.

>> THESE FBI RECORDINGS CAPTURED THE PLAYERS IN THIS CASE VERY WORRIED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO GET FOUND OUT BY STATE HOUSE REPORTERS.

AND WHAT IT TELLS ME IS THAT THERE'S REALLY A CONSTANT NEED FOR EYES ON THE STATE HOUSE BY ME AND ANDREW AND OUR COLLEAGUES.

AND THE ANECDOTE TO PUBLIC CORRUPTION IN MY OPINION IS PEOPLE NEED TO READ THE NEWSPAPER AND PAY ATTENTION.

>> ALL RIGHT.

MY FINAL THOUGHT IS ONCE AGAIN THIS LITTLE DEVICE PROVES CRUCIAL TO FINDING THE TRUTH.

IT HAS CAPTURED POLICE BRUTALITY THAT WOULD HAVE OTHERWISE GONE UNSEEN OVER THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS, AND AS WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE PAST SEVERAL WEEKS IT HAS SENT TEXT MESSAGES THAT EXPOSED THE TRUTH OF FOX NEWS, AND IN THE LARGEST POLITICAL SCANDAL IN OHIO HISTORY.

MOBILE PHONE CAMERAS AND MOBILE PHONE TEXTS APPARENTLY DO NOT LIE.

THAT IS "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" THIS WEEK, CHECK US OUT ONLINE, CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK.

WATCH US ANYTIME AT OUR WEBSITE WOSU.ORG OR ON THE PBS VIDEO APP, WHICH YOU CAN ALSO WATCH ON YOUR PHONE.

FOR OUR CREW, AND OUR PANEL, I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.