>> FROM HOUSE SPEAKER TO THE BIG HOUSE.

>>> FROM HOUSE SPEAKER TO THE BIG HOUSE.

>> WELCOME TO "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD."

A FEDERAL JUDGE THIS WEEK SHOWED FORMER OHIO HOUSE SPEAKER LARRY HOUSEHOLDER NO MERCY.

HOUSEHOLDER FACED A MAXIMUM SENTENCE OF 20 YEARS IN PRISON FOR HIS BRIBERY AND RACKETEERING CONVICTION.

JUDGE TIMOTHY BLACK GAVE HIM ALL 20 YEARS, CALLING HOUSEHOLDER A BULLY WHO BETRAYED THE PUBLIC'S TRUST.

BLACK SAYS HOUSEHOLDER WASN'T JUST GREEDY BUT LIKED POWER.

AFTER THE HEARING, THE JUDGE TOOK THE UNUSUAL STEP OF SENDING HOUSEHOLDER STRAIGHT TO PRISON.

>> TODAY WE WITNESSED JUSTICE FOR OHIOANS, JUSTICE FOR OHIOANS.

IT SHOWED THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO STAND UP AND SAY THAT YOU ARE A PUBLIC SERVANT THEN SAY THAT YOU HAVE TO BE A TRUE PUBLIC SERVANT, NOT AN IMPOSTER.

WE HEARD MR. HOUSEHOLDER INDICATE HE KEEPS CLOSE HIS FAITH, HIS FAMILY, AND HIS FRIENDS.

I WOULD HAVE ADDED ONE MORE.

HE NEEDS TO KEEP CLOSE THE OHIOANS IF HE IS GOING TO SERVE THIS STATE.

>> HOUSEHOLDER'S CO-DEFENDANT, LOBBYIST MATT BORGES RECEIVED A SENTENCE OF FIVE YEARS IN FEDERAL PRISON.

BORGES ALSO WENT STRAIGHT TO PRISON.

DARREL ROWLAND, YOU'VE COVERED LARRY HOUSEHOLDER FOR A LONG TIME.

HOUSE SPEAKER, ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL MEN IN THE STATE OF OHIO, IN POLITICS.

HE'S IN HANDCUFFS HEADED TO FEDERAL PRISON ON THURSDAY AFTERNOON.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> WELL, STUNNING.

YOU'RE RIGHT.

I WAS AROUND FOR THE FIRST FEDERAL INVESTIGATION OF LARRY HOUSEHOLDER.

HE WAS NEVER EVEN CHARGED, AND THERE WAS A LOT OF RECRIMINATIONS THAT THE FEDS FELL SHORT IN THEIR INVESTIGATION THERE.

HE CAME BACK AROUND AND, YOU KNOW, THEY OBVIOUSLY HAD THE GOODS THIS TIME.

LOTS OF TAPES.

LOTS OF FLIPPED KEY WITNESSES IN THIS CASE.

BUT STILL TO GET THAT MAX, I'M NOT SURE ANYONE WAS -- WE'RE SO USED TO IN OUR CULTURE SAYING, HE COULD GET 20 YEARS.

WELL, HE'LL NEVER GET 20 YEARS.

HE GOT 20 YEARS, AND I THINK THAT'S -- THE GUY SHOWED NO REMORSE WHATSOEVER, NO CONTRITION, NO ADMISSION THAT HE DID ANYTHING WRONG.

POLITICS AS USUAL RIGHT TO THE BITTER END.

I GUESS THAT MAY BE HIS ARGUMENT IN APPEALS COURT.

I'M NOT SURE IT'S A GOOD ARGUMENT AT SENTENCING.

IN CONTRAST, I THINK THAT'S WHY MATT BORGES GOT A LITTLE BIT LIGHTER -- WELL, A LOT LIGHTER SENTENCE.

HE FINALLY DID FESS UP, I'M TO BLAME HERE.

IT'S MY FAULT.

>> MIKE GONIDAKIS, TOO HARSH?

>> NO, NO ONE'S ABOVE THE LAW.

THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM PROVED AGAIN THAT IT WORKS.

THEY WERE CHARGED WITH A CRIME, HAD A TRIAL BEFORE A JURY OF THEIR PEERS AND WERE FOUND GUILTY.

THE QUESTION WE NEED TO ASK OURSELVES IS DO WE REALLY BELIEVE THIS WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN?

SADLY I'M NOT SURE WE CAN SAY THAT.

I THINK IT SENDS A LOUD MESSAGE, BUT IF THE FEDS NEED TO DO, IF THERE'S ANYONE ELSE THAT HAS DIRTY HANDS, THEY NEED TO CHARGE THEM TO, WHETHER THEY BE LOBBYISTS.

IF YOU TAKE OUT THE ROOT, IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

YOU'RE TAKING OUT THE BIG FISH.

WHAT ABOUT EVERYBODY ELSE?

>> WE'LL GET TO THE POSSIBLE CONTINUING OF THE INVESTIGATION IN A MOMENT.

BUT DO YOU THINK THIS WILL DETER OTHERS FROM GOING DOWN THIS ROAD?

>> I BELIEVE THAT OTHERS WILL THINK TWICE.

THEY WILL BEGIN TO RECONSIDER THEIR RELATIONSHIPS, THE BACK-ROOM DEALS THAT OCCUR BETWEEN CORPORATIONS AND POLITICIANS AND LOBBYISTS THAT OFTEN SCREW THE GENERAL PUBLIC.

AND HERE THAT'S WHAT WE HEAR FROM BOTH THE PROSECUTION AND THE JUDGE IN THEIR REMARKS IS THIS IS ABOUT OHIOANS AND HOW PEOPLE WITH POWER, ABSOLUTE POWER BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, CAN NOT JUST USE TAXPAYER DOLLARS TO GET ONE OVER, ENRICH THEMSELVES, AND RUIN WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE A GREAT STATE AND EVERYONE'S SUPPOSED TO BE FAIR AND HAVE TRANSPARENCY WHEREAS WE'RE SEEING CORPORATIONS GET GIANT HANDOUTS IN THE END.

>> LARRY HOUSEHOLDER IS A LARGER THAN LIFE POLITICIAN.

THE WAY HE SERVED, HE WAS ROUGH AND TUMBLE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IF HE HAD NOT TAKEN THE STAND IN THIS CASE, I'M NOT SURE HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ACQUITTED.

BUT HE CERTAINLY WOULD NOT HAVE SAID THE THINGS HE SAID THAT WERE, YOU KNOW, FOUND TO BE NOT TRUE BY THE CROSS-EXAMINATION.

AND THE JUDGE POINTED THAT OUT IN HIS SENTENCING.

>> WELL, RIGHT.

AGAIN, IT'S -- I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I GUESS HE'S IN FOR A DIME, IN FOR A DOLLAR.

IF I'M GOING TO MAKE THESE CLAIMS.

I THINK YOU GOT TO THINK, YOU KNOW, LARRY HAS BEEN ABLE TO -- YOU KNOW, THE GIFT OF GUILE AND THE GIFT OF GAB, THROUGHOUT THE LAST COUPLE OF DECADES IN OHIO POLITICS TO SOMEHOW KEEP SURVIVING.

GETS BEAT DOWN, COMES BACK EVEN MORE POWERFUL THAN BEFORE.

YOU KNOW, I SAW THE REPORTING FROM THAT DAY, AND IT'S LIKE, IS THIS GOING TO SELL BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE SO CYNICAL ABOUT POLITICIANS.

HIM SAYING, I DIDN'T DO MUCH WORSE THAN ANYBODY ELSE DID.

BUT THEN THE CRITICAL ARGUMENT THE NEXT DAY, THE ASSISTANT U.S.

PROSECUTOR COMING BACK AND JUST FACTUALLY RIPPED APART ALL OF HIS ASSERTIONS.

>> THOSE TAPES.

>> YEAH, THAT WAS JUST AN INCREDIBLE KEY MOMENT IN THAT TRIAL.

>> MIKE, YOU'RE AN ATTORNEY.

CAN YOU SHOW REMORSE AT YOUR SENTENCING HEARING AND STILL HAVE A SUCCESSFUL APPEAL?

>> SURE YOU CAN.

I THINK THAT'S THE WAY OUR SYSTEM IS SET UP.

BOTH OF THESE MEN OR AT LEAST ONE OF THEM DID ACCEPT MORE RESPONSIBILITY THAN THE OTHER.

AND I THINK IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS.

BUT THE CONSEQUENCES ARE JAIL TIME.

NOW, THEY'RE GOING TO APPEAL AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEIR ARGUMENTS ARE GOING TO BE.

BUT YOU CAN DO BOTH, ABSOLUTELY.

>> GETTING TO OTHER POSSIBLE CONVICTIONS OR INDICTMENTS, IS NOBODY ELSE IN CHARGE HERE?

THE FOUR PEOPLE -- THERE'S FIVE PEOPLE, NEIL CLARK DIED BY SUICIDE.

TWO PLED GUILTY, TWO CONVICTED.

THE FORMER HEAD OF THE UTILITIES COMMISSION, FIRST ENERGY EXECUTIVES WHO AUTHORIZED THE PAYMENTS THE COMPANY SAYS WERE, IN FACT, BRIBES.

>> I WOULD ARGUE THERE ARE PROBABLY OTHER POLITICIANS WHO WE HAVE NOT BEEN MADE AWARE OF, MAYBE NOT JUST IN OHIO BUT IN OTHER STATES THAT ARE PART OF THIS.

WE KNOW THAT IT WAS RECENTLY REPORTED IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" THAT THE PROSECUTOR SAID, THIS IS JUST STEP ONE.

AND SO IN THE CASE -- AND THIS GOES FAR BEYOND OHIO, AND THAT IS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

THE ROOT OF THE ISSUE HERE IS POLITICIANS AND CORPORATE SPECIAL INTERESTS AND LOBBYISTS MAKING BACK-ROOM DEALS AND THE IMPACT OF THAT IN THE LONG TERM.

I THINK WHAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND WHAT THE COURTS ARE TRYING TO DO IS DISENTANGLE CORPORATE DOLLARS AND POLITICAL INTERESTS.

>> MIKE, THERE'S A LOT OF CALLS FOR LEGISLATIVE REFORM, CHANGE THE RULES, TRY TO PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.

THIS CASE MIGHT DETER INDIVIDUALS FROM DOING THIS, BUT SHOULD THE SYSTEM BE CHANGED TO TRY TO PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN?

>> YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T LEGISLATE EVERY POSSIBLE FORM OF CORRUPTION.

YOU'RE ALWAYS GOING TO FIND A LOOPHOLE.

EVIL HAS NO BOUNDS, OF COURSE.

BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO IS START HOLDING THE MEN AND WOMEN, THE PEOPLE AROUND CAP SQUARE RESPONSIBLE.

IF YOU LET THEM SKATE, THEY DON'T HAVE TERM LIMITS.

THERE'S GOING TO BE A BIG CLIENT COMING IN FROM ANOTHER STATE, AND THEY'LL FIND DIFFERENT WAYS TO DO IT.

HOLD THOSE PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE, AND IT GOES AWAY.

>>> OHIO'S REDISTRICTING PROCESS REMAINS A BIT OF A MESS.

THE MAPS ARE STILL UNCONSTITUTIONAL, BUT THE U.S. SUPREME COURT THIS WEEK MADE THINGS A LITTLE CLEARER FOR STATE LAWMAKERS.

IT RULED LEGISLATORS CANNOT IGNORE THE CONSTITUTION WHEN DRAWING CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS.

THE SUPREME COURT REJECTED THE SO-CALLED INDEPENDENT STATE LEGISLATURE THEORY.

THE ARGUMENT THAT STATE LEGISLATURES ALONE CAN DRAW CONGRESSIONAL MAPS AND MAKE THE RULES FOR THOSE ELECTIONS.

THE HIGH COURT SAID STATE SUPREME COURTS CAN REJECT CONGRESSIONAL MAPS DRAWN BY LAWMAKERS.

DARREL, YOU'VE COVERED REDISTRICTING ALMOST AS LONG AS YOU'VE COVERED LARRY HOUSEHOLDER.

>> LONGER ACTUALLY.

MY.

>> SO MY QUESTION IS WILL THIS RULING HAVE ANY EFFECT ON OHIO'S PROCESS?

THEY HAVE TO DRAW NEW CONGRESSIONAL MAPS IN THE COMING MONTHS.

>> RIGHT.

I DON'T KNOW IF PEOPLE SAW BUT TODAY THEY ACTUALLY RULED ON THE OHIO CASE.

IT'S KIND OF AN UNUSUAL RULING.

MIKE'S THE ATTORNEY.

MAYBE HE CAN SORT IT OUT A LITTLE MORE FOR US.

IT'S LIKE A ONE-LINE ORDER IN WHICH THEY DID GRANT CERTIORARI, WHICH MEANS THEY ACCEPTED THE CASE.

HOWEVER, INSTANTLY THEY REMANDED IT BACK TO THE OHIO SUPREME COURT FOR CONSIDERATION IN LIGHT OF THE MOORE DECISION, THE NORTH CAROLINA DECISION THAT SAID THIS THEORY YOUR ESPOUSING, WE JUST SHOT THAT DOWN, SO STATE COURT, CLEAN UP ON THAT.

HOWEVER, MATT HOFFMAN COMES BACK AND SAYS THE SUPREME COURT GRANTED OUR APPEAL, WHICH CURRY RECOGNIZED SERIOUS CONSTITUTIONAL CONCERNS.

IT'S LIKE, WHAT?

>> OKAY, MR. ATTORNEY.

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW.

LOOK, IN MY LEGAL OPINION OR MY PERSONAL OPINION, IT WAS A GOOD DAY FOR THE CURRENT STRUCTURE WE HAD IN PLACE BECAUSE THE COURT COULD HAVE DISMISSED OHIO'S APPEAL.

BUT THEY DIDN'T.

THEY SENT IT BACK AND SAY YOU DIDN'T LOOK AT THIS.

WHY DID THEY DO?

BECAUSE THE WAY THE MAUREEN O'CONNOR COURT DID LAST TERM.

IT'S NOT JUSTIFIABLE.

IT DOESN'T HOLD WATER WHAT HER REASONS WERE FOR DENYING THE CONGRESSIONAL MAPS.

AND NOW THE OHIO SUPREME COURT TODAY, IN 2023, IF IT GETS TO THEM, ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LOOK AT THE MAPS.

AND THEY COULD COME WITH THIS NEW MOORE DECISION AND SAY THEY'RE CONSTITUTIONAL.

SO IT WAS A GOOD DAY FOR THE CURRENT MAP MAKERS BASED ON WHAT THE COURT DID TODAY.

>> IT'S A MORE STRONGLY CONSERVATIVE COURT, SO THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN ANYWAY, RIGHT?

THEY WERE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT THESE MAPS AND SAY WHAT THAT COURT SAID WAS WRONG, WE'RE GOING TO SAY IS OKAY.

>> THE ROOT ISSUE IS THAT THE REPUBLICANS LOST AT THE SUPREME COURT LEVEL.

THEY SAID YOU CANNOT GERRYMANDER COMMUNITIES.

AGAIN THE COURT HERE FOCUSED ON THE PEOPLE IN THIS CASE.

SO WHAT HAPPENED IN OHIO IS THEY WERE GERRYMANDERING COMMUNITIES, CRACKING APART COMMUNITIES THAT SHOULD BE TOGETHER.

AND MAUREEN O'CONNOR SAID THIS IS NOT OKAY.

REPUBLICANS COMPLETELY IGNORED THE WILL OF THE STATE SUPREME COURT.

IN THE INTERIM, THEY DECIDED TO POLITICIZE JUSTICES IN OHIO BY ADDING AFFILIATION TO THE BALLOT.

SO DEMOCRATS LOST OUR ABILITY TO WIN SEATS IN THE STATE SUPREME COURT RACE.

SO REPUBLICANS ARE FEELING REALLY HIGH RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THEY RIGGED THE STATE SUPREME COURT AS WELL.

NOW THEY HOLD THE MAJORITY.

THE REALITY IS THEY PROBABLY WILL DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO NOW, NOW THAT THEY HAVE THE STATE SUPREME COURT ALIGNED WITH THEIR FAVOR.

>> MY FRIEND DESIREE MAY NOT LIKE IT BUT VOTERS VOTED IN A STATEWIDE ELECTION.

THERE'S NO GERRYMANDERING.

>> THE VOTERS GET TO MAKE THE DECISION.

WHAT THE UNITED STATES STATE SUPREME COURT SAID, THEY DIDN'T SAY WHAT HAPPENED IN ALABAMA AND THE RACISM THERE WHERE THIS LINES, AND IT WASN'T MY PERSONAL OPINION, AND I'M GLAD THEY THREW OUT THE MAPS BECAUSE IT WAS WRONG.

THEY'RE SAYING, TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT IT AGAIN.

THAT'S A GOOD DAY FOR US.

>> BUT THE OHIO CONSTITUTION AND THE AMENDMENT THAT WAS PASSED SAYS THAT THEY CAN'T DRAW DISTRICTS, DARREL, THAT DO NOT REFLECT THE POLITICAL MAKEUP OF OHIO.

YOU CAN'T GIVE ONE PARTY AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.

I'M BEING NONLEGALESE IN MY TALK HERE, WHICH THESE MAPS DID.

BUT THIS COURT MAY NOT CARE.

>> I THINK THAT'S SORT OF THE CUT TO THE CHASE VERSION.

WE HAVE A PRECEDENT SET BY THIS SUPREME COURT.

THIS SUPREME COURT AS AN INSTITUTION HAS SET A PRECEDENT.

THIS MAP IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

NOW, AS WE'VE SEEN IN WASHINGTON, NOW THAT THE DISCERNING JUSTICES ARE IN THE MAJORITY, ALONG WITH JOE DEETERS, A GUBERNATORIAL OF MIKE DeWINE, THEY'LL SAY THAT PRECEDENT'S NICE, BUT GOODBYE, PRECEDENT.

WE THINK WE'RE AGREEING WITH OUR FELLOW REPUBLICANS.

BUT ALL THE U.S. SUPREME COURT SAID TODAY WAS RECONSIDER THIS IN LIGHT OF THE MOORE DECISION, WHICH WAS ABOUT INDEPENDENT STATE LEGISLATURE.

THERE'S ZERO IN THERE ABOUT WHAT MAUREEN O'CONNOR DID OR DIDN'T DO.

JUST REMAND, RECONSIDER UNDER THIS DECISION.

>> THAT DECISION SAID YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW WHAT'S IN THE STATE CONSTITUTION, SO WE'LL HAVE TO INTERPRET -- THE COURT WILL INTERPRET WHAT IS IN THE CONSTITUTION.

IT MAY GET BACK BEFORE THE U.S. SUPREME COURT.

IT PROBABLY WILL.

CHECK YOUR VOTER REGISTRATION.

MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A STATE APPROVED I.D.

MAKE SURE YOU'RE PREPARED AND WE WANT EVERYONE TO VOTE NO ON ISSUE 1.

>> MIKE.

>> SHOUT OUT TO AKRON PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

THEY ADOPTED A POLICY WHERE THEY'RE USING MAGNETICALLY LOCKED CELL PHONE CASES FOR ALL STUDENTS DURING THE SCHOOL DAY.

IT'S GOING EVERY HIGH SCHOOL IN OHIO SHOULD FOLLOW AKRON'S LEAD.

>> KIDS ARE THRILLED.

>> WE TALKED ABOUT THE REDISTRICTING SITUATION.

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE ANOTHER MESSY YEAR IN 2023 ON HOW THAT'S SHAKING OUT AND ALL THE POLITICS.

I THINK -- I WOULD SUBMIT WE'RE ALL SEEING THE POLITICIZATION AND SOME SHAKY INFORMATION PUT OUT.

IT'S THE MEDIA AFTER THE FACT PUTTING A SPIN ON IT.

>> WE ALL AGREED ON THIS FIVE OR SIX YEARS AGO.

CAN'T WE DO THIS, OHIO?

>>> THE SUMMER NEWS THROWDOWN IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN THIS WEEK.

WE HAVE A BIG DEADLINE.

THE DEADLINE FOR SUPPORTERS OF THE ABORTION RIGHTS AMENDMENT TO GET THEIR SIGNATURES IN, ALSO THE MEDICAL MARIJUANA QUESTION DEADLINE COMES UP THIS WEEK.

SO WE WILL KNOW BY NEXT FRIDAY, AT LEAST HAVE A GOOD IDEA WHETHER OR NOT THOSE TWO ISSUES WILL BE ON THE NOVEMBER BALLOT.

THAT IS "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" FOR THIS WEEK.

CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK.

YOU CAN WATCH US ANYTIME AT OUR WEBSITE, WOSU.ORG/COTR, OR ON THE PBS VIDEO APP.

FOR OUR CURRENT PANEL, I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.