>> Announcer: MAJOR FUNDING FOR "CHAT BOX" WITH DAVID CRUZ IS PROVIDED BY FUEL MERCHANTS ASSOCIATION OF NEW JERSEY AND SMART HEAT NJ.

THE MEMBERS OF THE NEW JERSEY EDUCATION ASSOCIATION, MAKING PUBLIC SCHOOLS GREAT FOR EVERY CHILD.

NJM INSURANCE GROUP, SERVING THE INSURANCE NEEDS OF NEW JERSEY RESIDENTS AND BUSINESSES FOR MORE THAN 100 YEARS.

PROMOTIONAL SUPPORT IS PROVIDED BY INSIDER NJ, A POLITICAL INTELLIGENCE NETWORK DEDICATED TO NEW JERSEY POLITICAL NEWS.

INSIDER NJ IS COMMITTED TO GIVING SERIOUS POLITICAL PLAYERS AN INTERACTIVE FORUM FOR IDEAS, DISCUSSION, AND INSIGHT.

ONLINE AT INSIDERNJ.COM.

♪♪ >>> WELCOME TO "CHAT BOX."

I'M DAVID CRUZ.

WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT AN ONGOING LEGAL BATTLE TO DESEGREGATE NEW JERSEY'S SCHOOLS.

YES, THE SCHOOLS THAT YOU HEAR ABOUT AS BEING AMONG THE BEST IN THE COUNTRY, THEY ARE ALSO AMONG THE COUNTRY'S MOST SEGREGATED.

IT MAY SURPRISE YOU TO KNOW ALSO THAT THE MURPHY ADMINISTRATION IS FIGHTING THE SUIT.

THAT'S IN OUR SECOND HALF.

BUT WE BEGIN TODAY WITH THE PERILOUS STATUS OF IMMIGRATION REFORM.

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO EVER THOUGHT THAT IT WASN'T IN PERIL.

WE'RE JOINED NOW BY THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE NEW JERSEY ALLIANCE FOR IMMIGRANT JUSTICE, AMY TORRES.

AMY, HI.

GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> HI, DAVID.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO, I REMEMBER IT LIKE IT WAS YESTERDAY.

PRESIDENT BIDEN, RIGHT OUT THE GATE, PUTTING IMMIGRATION REFORM FRONT AND CENTER AS A TOP THE FIRST WEEK OF THAT ADMINISTRATION, EXECUTIVE ORDERS, IMMIGRATION BILLS, THEN IT ALL GOT SIDESWIPED BY SO MANY THINGS.

I MEAN, IN CONGRESS RIGHT NOW, NEGOTIATIONS ARE NOWHERE, I THINK.

I MEAN, THE PARLIAMENTARIAN WOULDN'T ALLOW THEM TO HAVE IMMIGRATION CONSIDERED AS PART OF THE BUDGET PROCESS.

I MEAN, IS IT REALLY AS DEAD AS IT SEEMS?

>> WELL, IT CERTAINLY SHOULDN'T BE.

AND WE'RE HOPEFUL THAT IT'S NOT.

IN ADDITION TO PRESIDENT BIDEN BEING THE ONE LEADING THAT CHARGE AND PUTTING THAT AGENDA OUT, IT WAS NEW JERSEY'S VERY OWN SENATOR MENENDEZ WHO WAS LEADING THE CHARGE FOR A DIRECT PATH TO CITIZENSHIP.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, FOR FOLKS THAT ARE PAYING ATTENTION, THIS CONSTANT TENSION BETWEEN WHICH OF THE BILLS SHOULD GO FIRST, WHETHER IT'S THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL, WHETHER IT'S HAVING IT GO SIDE-BY-SIDE WITH THE RECONCILIATION BILL, REALLY WHAT THE PUBLIC IS WAITING IS THE RIGHT?

THIS IS NOT SO LONG AGO THAT WE WERE TOLD THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WAS GOING TO BE THE ANSWER FOR VOTERS OF COLOR, THE ANSWER FOR FAMILIES OF COLOR, THE ANSWER FOR IMMIGRANT FAMILIES, AND YET, HERE WE ARE.

THE PRESIDENT HAS VISITED NEW JERSEY TO CAMPAIGN FOR SOME OF OUR POLITICIANS.

HE'S RUMORED TO BE VISITING AGAIN.

>> YEP.

>> VICE PRESIDENT HAS VISITED NEW JERSEY.

BUT THOSE PROMISES HAVE YET TO BE DELIVERED, AND YET THEY'RE ASKING VOTERS TO TURN OUT AGAIN.

AND I THINK WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER, DAVID, IS THAT THESE PROVISIONS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THESE DIRECT PATHWAYS TO CITIZENSHIP, THIS IS WHAT OUR COMMUNITIES ARE OWED.

PAROLE IS NOT A PATHWAY.

RIGHT?

DACA, IN AND OF ITSELF, WAS -- IT WAS A LOSS, RIGHT?

IT WAS NEVER A PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP.

IT WAS NEVER ENOUGH.

IT WAS JUST A SMALL CRUMB THAT WE WERE GRANTED WITH THE PROMISE THAT IMMIGRATION REFORM WOULD THEN SOON COME.

AND YET, HERE WE ARE, NATIONWIDE VOTER REFERENDUM AGAINST HATE, AGAINST DISCRIMINATION, AND WE'RE STILL NOT AFFIRMING THE RIGHTS OF IMMIGRANT COMMUNITIES TO BELONG.

WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CITIZENSHIP, I'VE BEEN HEARING A LOT, YOU KNOW, MY FAMILY CAME HERE THE RIGHT WAY.

AND THAT'S -- THAT'S GREAT.

I WISH THAT MORE FAMILIES COULD COME THE WAY THAT OTHER FAMILIES CAME.

FOR A VERY LONG TIME IN THIS COUNTRY, WE DID NOT HAVE BORDER ENFORCEMENT.

AND IN ORDER TO COME TO THE COUNTRY, YOU JUST NEEDED TO BE ABLE TO PAY YOUR BOAT FARE.

SO I WOULD LOVE TO RETURN TO A TIME WHERE FAMILIES COULD DO IT THE RIGHT WAY, BUT I GUARANTEE YOU, MOST FOLKS, IF YOU WANTED TO PUT YOUR GRANDMA IN THE IMMIGRATION LINE RIGHT NOW, SHE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO MAKE IT.

AND WE'VE ERECTED SO MANY BARRIERS THAT THIS FIGHT FOR THE PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP IS JUST RIGHTING PAST WRONGS AND DELIVERING THE PROMISES THAT VOTERS WERE TOLD LAST YEAR WOULD HAPPEN.

>> MEANWHILE, IN SHARP CONTRAST TO THOSE VERY PROMISES, IN THE LAST FISCAL YEAR, THE U.S.

DETAINED, ARRESTED, HELD MORE THAN 1.7 MILLION MIGRANTS ALONG THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

I MEAN, IF PRESIDENT TRUMP WERE PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW, I CAN'T IMAGINE THE OUTRAGE THAT THERE WOULD BE, LITERALLY, I THINK, OUT ON THE STREETS TO KNOW THAT 1.7 MILLION PEOPLE WERE BEING ARRESTED ALONG THE BORDER EVERY YEAR.

I MEAN, IT JUST SEEMS LIKE -- I DON'T KNOW.

THE AIR HAS GONE OUT OF THE ISSUE.

I MEAN, THE FERVOR OF THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE TO SUPPORT IMMIGRATION REFORM APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN LOST IN THE GIVE-AND-TAKE AND THE MINUTIA OF THE CURRENT INFRASTRUCTURE BILL.

>> YEAH.

AND I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU ASKING THAT QUESTION, DAVID, BECAUSE I DO THINK PART OF IT IS A -- IS MEDIA SCRUTINY OF WHAT IS HAPPENING AT THE BORDER AND WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH I.C.E.

AND CBP.

I THINK THE GENERAL PUBLIC WAS SO EXHAUSTED OVER THE POLITICS OF LAST YEAR'S ELECTION THAT THEY SORT OF TOOK A BACKSEAT.

THEN YOU ADD A GLOBAL PANDEMIC ON TOP OF IT, AND PEOPLE ARE BEING SLIGHTLY LESS SCRUTINY OF WHAT'S HAPPENING.

THAT'S NOT THE REALITY FOR IMMIGRANT VOTERS AND COMMUNITIES.

WE ARE STILL PAYING VERY CLOSE ATTENTION, EVEN WHEN MEDIA MIGHT NOT BE.

IN A STATE LIKE NEW JERSEY WHERE NEARLY ONE IN FOUR NEW JERSEYANS IS FOREIGN BORN, WHERE ONE IN SIX CITIZENS IN NEW JERSEY LIVES WITH SOMEONE UNDOCUMENTED IN THEIR HOUSEHOLD, EVERY ISSUE IS AN IMMIGRANT ISSUE, AND IMMIGRATION IS A KITCHEN TABLE ISSUE IN NEW JERSEY.

DETENTION NUMBERS, YOU KNOW, EXPULSIONS AT THE BORDER, DEPORTATIONS, THESE ARE THINGS THAT FAMILIES ARE TALKING ABOUT ALL THE TIME, EVEN IF IT'S NOT COMING OVER THEIR TV SET OR ON THE RADIO OR, YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY'RE OPENING THEIR PHONES TO READ THE NEWS.

>> YEAH, AND I MEAN, EVEN, YOU KNOW, WHENEVER WE DO IMMIGRATION SEGMENTS, SOME PEOPLE GET SURPRISED THAT THEY GET -- THEY BECOME SOME OF THE MOST VIEWED BECAUSE THE FACT IS THAT IMMIGRATION NOT ONLY AFFECTS THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO GET INTO THIS COUNTRY BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY, BUT IT AFFECTS ALL OF US.

ECONOMICALLY, SOCIALLY, POLITICALLY, ALL OF THOSE THINGS, I MEAN, EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS, PARTICULARLY IN OUR AREA, HAS GOT TO BE SEEN THROUGH THE PRISM OF IMMIGRATION BECAUSE IT IS SO INTEGRATED INTO LIFE HERE.

>> YES, AND IT WOULD BE TERRIBLE TO BE IN A POSITION WHERE PEOPLE TAKE THAT DATA FOR GRANTED.

THIS SUMMER, WHEN THE 2020 CENSUS DATA WAS RELEASED, NEW JERSEY RETAINED OUR FULL REPRESENTATION IN THE HOUSE AND OUR POPULATION SHOWED IT WAS GROWING FASTEST WITH PEOPLE OF COLOR AND IMMIGRANTS.

AND THIS IS THE FUTURE OF NOT JUST NEW JERSEY.

THIS IS THE FUTURE OF THE NATION.

BY 2050, WE'RE EXPECTED TO BE A MAJORITY MINORITY POPULATION NATIONWIDE WHERE THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE FROM MINORITY GROUPS.

>> SO WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NOW?

I MEAN, WE SEEM TO HAVE MOVED ON TO INFRASTRUCTURE AND THEN NOW WE'RE GOING TO BE IN MIDTERMS AND NOBODY LIKES TO TOUCH CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES DURING MIDTERMS.

THEN AFTER THE MIDTERMS, IT'S WHO'S RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, AND THEN WHO'S GOING TO PICK UP THE MANTLE OF IMMIGRATION REFORM AND WE'LL WAIT ANOTHER TWO YEARS.

I DON'T KNOW IF MY FRUSTRATION IS SHOWING, BUT I MEAN, I HOPE THAT I'M REGISTERING FRUSTRATION FOR MILLIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO DON'T SEE ANY PROFILES IN COURAGE EMERGING.

I MEAN, THEY MADE A BIG THING OF PUTTING KAMALA HARRIS IN CHARGE OF GETTING EVERYBODY TOGETHER ON THIS ISSUE, BUT SHE SEEMS TO HAVE DISAPPEARED FROM DEALING WITH THE ISSUE AS WELL.

WHAT IS YOUR LEVEL OF CONFIDENCE?

>> LOOK, WHERE IT MAY APPEAR THAT DECISION MAKERS ARE MOVING ON, GUARANTEE THAT THE MOVEMENT IS NOT.

WE ARE DIGGING IN.

YOU KNOW, JUST THIS MONTH, PEOPLE WERE ARRESTED PROTESTING REPRESENTATIVE GOT HIEMER, RIGHT?

WE KNOW THAT THE PUBLIC IS STILL PAYING ATTENTION.

THE TYPE OF PUBLIC THAT MOBILIZES FOR CONTENTIOUS ELECTIONS ARE PAYING ATTENTION, AND WE'RE DIGGING IN.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE SOLD FALSE PROMISES ANYMORE.

AND WHAT HAPPENS WHEN DECISION MAKERS CHOOSE TO IGNORE THAT OR TAKE IT FOR GRANTED, WE GET ADMINISTRATIONS LIKE THE ONE THAT WE JUST HAD.

AND WE LOSE CONTROL AT A TIME WHERE WE REALLY SHOULD BE BUILDING THE NATION BACK, NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE POPULATION CHANGES WE TALKED ABOUT BUT BECAUSE WE'VE GONE THROUGH A CRISIS WHERE MORE AMERICANS HAVE DIED THAN DIED IN WORLD WAR II.

AND I DON'T KNOW THAT ANY OF OUR DECISION MAKERS ARE DOING ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY LIFT AND MITIGATE THE DISPARITIES THAT MADE THIS PANDEMIC AS BAD AS IT WAS.

>> LET ME HIT TWO MORE QUICK THINGS BEFORE WE RUN OUT OF TIME.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU WERE CLOSELY INVOLVED WITH IN YOUR ORGANIZATION WAS GETTING THESE I.C.E.

DETENTION CENTER AGREEMENTS NULLIFIED AND YOU HAVE SUCCEEDED IN THAT IN A WAY THAT SURPRISED A LOT OF PEOPLE IN HOW QUICKLY IT HAPPENED.

BUT ONE OF THE SIDE EFFECTS OF THAT IS THESE INMATES WHO WERE MOSTLY FROM THE NEW YORK METRO AREA NOW HAVE BEEN MOVED TO OTHER FACILITIES AROUND THE COUNTRY.

WHAT IS THE STATUS OF THAT SITUATION?

I KNOW WE HAD THE TWO U.S.

SENATORS ASKING IF THOSE PEOPLE WOULD BE RELEASED, BUT WHAT IS THE STATUS OF THOSE WHO ARE NOW IN OTHER STATES?

>> YEAH.

SO, TWO IMPORTANT THINGS.

YOU KNOW, I THINK WHEN, YOU KNOW, FOR FOLKS THAT ARE WATCHING AT HOME, WHEN YOU'RE FRUSTRATED WITH FEDERAL POLITICS, UNDERSTAND THERE ARE THINGS THAT YOU CAN DO AT THE LOCAL AND THE STATE LEVEL TO GET THE CHANGE THAT YOU WANT AND CONTINUE BUILDING THAT MOMENTUM FOR FEDERAL CHANGE.

BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED IN NEW JERSEY, WHEN I.C.E.

WANTS TO PLAN A RAID, WHEN THEY WANT TO PLAN AN ARREST, THEY NOW HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE.

DO I WANT TO DO WHAT I USED TO DO AND ARREST AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE AND ENTRAP THEM IN THE DETENTION SYSTEM?

OR AM I GOING TO DO THAT NOW AND HAVE TO PAY TO PROCESS EVERYONE AND EITHER RELEASE THEM OR TRANSFER THEM FAR AWAY?

SO, WE'VE REALLY LIMITED AND MADE I.C.E.

OPERATIONS SO INCONVENIENT IN THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY AND IN THE BROADER NEW YORK REGION BECAUSE OF HOW MANY FOLKS WE HOUSED WHO WERE ARRESTED IN NEW YORK, THAT I THINK WE'VE REMOVED A MAJOR CHESS PIECE FROM I.C.E.

'S BOARD.

AND SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD CERTAINLY CELEBRATE AND CONGRATULATE.

I.C.E.

IS THROWING TANTRUMS, RIGHT?

AND THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY DETER ANY OTHER STATE FROM DOING WHAT WE DID.

NEW YORK HAS VERY SIMILAR LEGISLATION TO WHAT WE DID IN NEW JERSEY.

THERE'S THOSE FURTHER AND ACTUALLY ENDS THE CONTRACTS THAT THEY ALREADY HAVE AND THAT SCARES I.C.E.

TO DEATH.

IT'S AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO THEM.

CALIFORNIA ALREADY HAS THIS LEGISLATION PASSED.

ILLINOIS.

A HANDFUL OF OTHER STATES.

IF WE ARE TO DO THE SAME ON THE EAST COAST, WE WOULD COMPLETELY DISRUPT I.C.E.

OPERATIONS, WHICH IS WHY YOU SEE THEM RETALIATING IN THESE WAYS.

NOW, IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS, SEVERAL OF THE LOCAL SITES HAVE ANNOUNCED THEIR CLOSURES.

BECAUSE OF THE SUSTAINED UPROAR THAT HAPPENED AT ESSEX, WE KNOW THAT WE SUCCESSFULLY WERE ABLE TO RELEASE FOLKS AT HUDSON AND IN THE CASES WHERE THERE WERE TRANSFERS, THEY WERE TRANSFERRED WITHIN THEIR DOCKET TO MAINTAIN THEIR REPRESENTATION AND WE'RE STILL ACTIVELY FIGHTING FOR THOSE RELEASES, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT WE SAW AT SOME OF THE OTHER SITES TOO, SOMETIMES FOLKS WILL GET TRANSFERRED.

THEY'LL THEN GET TRANSFERRED BACK AND RELEASED.

SO, THE FIGHT IS ONGOING FOR EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO'S HELD IN DETENTION RIGHT NOW.

CALLS ARE HAPPENING ALMOST EVERY DAY THIS WEEK TO COORDINATE BETWEEN ATTORNEYS AND ADVOCATES.

AND THAT FIGHT IS PREVENTING ANYONE ELSE FROM ENDING UP IN THAT SITUATION AND REALLY POSING THE SAME THREAT TO I.C.E.

THAT THEY HAVE IMPOSED ON OUR COMMUNITIES FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS.

>> ALL RIGHT, AMY TORRES, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANKS FOR COMING ON WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THERE'S AN ANNUAL RANKING, I THINK FORBES DOES IT, THAT PUTS NEW JERSEY SCHOOLS IN THE TOP TEN OF SCHOOLS IN THE COUNTRY.

THERE ARE OTHER STUDIES BY THE CIVIL RIGHTS GROUP NEW JERSEY POLICY PERSPECTIVE AND OTHERS THAT RANK NEW JERSEY SCHOOLS IN THE TOP TEN OF MOST SEGREGATED IN THE COUNTRY.

SO, HOW DO WE RECONCILE THOSE TWO, AND HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE IN THE MOST DIVERSE STATE IN THE COUNTRY?

LET'S ASK TWO PEOPLE WHO ARE CLOSE TO THIS ISSUE, PATRICK WALL IS SENIOR REPORTER FOR CHALK BEAT IN NEWARK.

AND CHARLES BOYAR IS FOUNDING DIRECTOR OF SALVATION AND SOCIAL JUSTICE, PART OF A GROUP ALSO THAT IS SUING THE STATE OVER SEGREGATED SCHOOLS.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS SUIT AGAINST THE STATE, PASTOR.

HOW DID YOU BECOME A PART OF IT?

>> WELL, MANY, MANY YEARS AGO, SEVERAL YEARS AGO AT THIS POINT, JUSTICE STEIN WAS REALLY LOOKING AT THIS ISSUE, AND HE AND I HAVE BEEN IN MANY CONVERSATIONS AND DISCUSSING THESE REALLY, REALLY DEEP LEVEL SEGREGATION ISSUES IN THE STATE.

WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HOW THE BLACK CHURCH WAS REALLY INSTRUMENTAL, BLACK FAITH LEADERS, INSTRUMENTAL IN THE DESEGREGATION MOVEMENT IN THE SOUTH AND HOW ENORMOUS OF AN ISSUE THIS WAS AND HOW WE WERE NOW OUTRANKING SOUTHERN SCHOOLS IN SEGREGATION.

AND I FELT REALLY CALLED.

I FELT REALLY CALLED TO BE A PART OF THIS WORK AND PART OF THE EFFORT TO DESEGREGATE NEW JERSEY SCHOOLS AS A RESULT.

>> PATRICK, DOES THIS MEAN THAT THERE WAS EVER A TIME WHEN SCHOOLS IN NEW JERSEY WERE NOT SEGREGATED?

I MEAN, WHAT DO THE STUDIES SAY ABOUT HOW SEGREGATED THE SCHOOLS ARE IN NEW JERSEY?

>> A FEW THINGS.

FIRST, THEY HAVE BEEN SEGREGATED FOR A WHILE BUT THEY'VE BECOME MORE SEGREGATED OVER TIME AND AS THE LAWSUIT GETS TO, IT HAS TO DO WITH HOW SUITS ARE ASSIGNED TO SCHOOLS SO STUDENTS HAVE TO USUALLY ATTEND THE SCHOOL WHERE THEY LIVE, AND SO THAT MEANS THAT IF THEY ARE LIVING IN AN AREA THAT'S SEGREGATED, THAT TENDS TO BE THE TYPE OF SCHOOL THEY GO TO IS SEGREGATED AS WELL.

>> WHAT IS THE IMPACT OF SEGREGATED SCHOOLS?

I MEAN, WHAT DO THE STUDIES SAY ABOUT HOW BLACK AND BROWN KIDS END UP IN BLACK AND BROWN SCHOOLS ONLY AND HOW THOSE SCHOOLS ARE CHRONICALLY UNDERFUNDED?

>> YEAH, THERE'S A LOT OF RESEARCH ON THIS.

FIRST IT'S ABOUT THE RESOURCES THAT SCHOOLS THAT TEND TO BE PRIMARILY BLACK AND BROWN IN LOW-INCOME HAVE FEWER ADVANCED CLASSES, LESS RESOURCES, STRICTER DISCIPLINE POLICIES, AND THEN THERE'S ACADEMIC RESEARCH SO THAT STUDENTS IN, AGAIN, LOW INCOME BLACK AND HISPANIC STUDENTS WHO ARE IN MORE INTEGRATED SCHOOLS HAVE HIGHER TEST SCORES, BETTER GRADUATION RATES, THERE'S A LOT OF BENEFITS AND THEN THERE'S ALSO BENEFITS TO ALL STUDENTS, INCLUDING WHITE STUDENTS AND ALSO HIGHER-INCOME STUDENTS IN TERMS OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT, IN TERMS OF BEING PREPARED TO LIVE IN A MULTIRACIAL SOCIETY, AND SO THERE'S -- ANY WAY YOU LOOK AT IT, THERE ARE QUITE A FEW BENEFITS TO INTEGRATED SCHOOLS.

>> PASTOR, WE WERE TALKING WITH GARY STEIN, YOU MENTIONED HIM, THE FORMER STATE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE WHO WAS PART OF -- NOT PART OF THIS SUIT BUT PART OF THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND IT, AND HE TALKED A LOT ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE CASE NOW.

COULD YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT THE REACTION OF THE MURPHY ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN IN THIS CASE?

WHAT THEY'VE DONE?

>> SURE, SURE.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY INTERESTING AND AS YOU KNOW, YOU'VE DONE A LOT OF GREAT WORK AROUND RACIAL JUSTICE ISSUES, BUT THIS IS ONE PLACE THAT HAS BEEN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.

IT'S BEEN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT BECAUSE THE ADMINISTRATION HAS REALLY WORKED VIGOROUSLY TO SLOW DOWN AND TO STALL AND NOT TO DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE.

AND THE REALITY IS I UNDERSTAND PRETTY CLEARLY ONE OF THE MAJOR DRIVERS OF WHY THAT IS, AND IT BASICALLY COMES DOWN TO ONE OF THE SAME MAJOR DRIVERS AS TO WHY WE HAVE THE SCHOOL SYSTEMS THAT WE DO.

IT'S FEAR OF A VITRIOLIC, MOSTLY WHITE ELECTORATE.

UP UNTIL THIS POINT, THESE OFF-YEAR ELECTIONS AT THIS POINT, ARE MOSTLY MORE CONSERVATIVE WHITE VOTERS, WHICH IS WHY WE HAVE NOT HAD A SECOND TERM FOR A DEMOCRAT IN OVER 50 YEARS, WHICH GETS US HERE AND SO WOULD PROBABLY BE A POLITICAL NIGHTMARE FOR A CANDIDATE, BECAUSE THERE IS STILL A LOT OF DISDAIN FOR BLACK PEOPLE IN WHITE COMMUNITIES, WHETHER THAT BE HOUSING OR SCHOOLS.

AND SO, THIS IS WHERE WE ARE, AND IT'S BEEN A VERY DISAPPOINTING PIECE AND I'M VERY HOPEFUL TO SEE THE ADMINISTRATION PIVOT AND FULLY COME FORTH TOWARDS RESOLUTION AND STAND DOWN FROM THE STALL TACTICS, HOPEFULLY IN THE SECOND TERM.

>> PATRICK, HAVE YOU DONE MUCH COVERAGE ON THIS SPECIFIC CASE?

>> A LITTLE BIT.

AND I WAS ACTUALLY SPEAKING WITH ONE OF THE ATTORNEYS FOR THE PLAINTIFF TODAY ABOUT THIS AND KIND OF GETTING AN UPDATE ON WHERE THINGS STAND AND THE PASTOR, I'M SURE, ALREADY KNOWS ALL THIS, BUT YOU KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF PROCEDURAL MOVES SO FAR THAT HAVE REALLY STRETCHED THIS OUT FOR MORE THAN THREE YEARS NOW.

BUT THE NEXT THING THAT IS SET TO HAPPEN IS THE STATE IS DUE TO RESPOND TO THE PLAINTIFF'S MOTION IN DECEMBER AND THAT WILL REALLY BE ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES THEY COMMENT ON THE MERITS OF THE CASE, WHETHER THEY THINK THEY ARE LIABLE FOR SEGREGATION AND WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE AND THE PLAINTIFFS HAVE A CHANCE TO RESPOND.

IN JANUARY, THEN EARLY NEXT YEAR IS WHEN WE MIGHT HAVE ORAL ARGUMENTS TO REALLY GET AT THE KIND OF THE CRUX OF THE CASE.

>> YOU ARE, OF COURSE, IN THE MIDDLE OF A GOVERNOR'S RACE, AND BOTH OF THE CANDIDATES WERE ASKED ABOUT SCHOOL DESEGREGATION AT A RECENT PBS DEBATE.

LET'S HEAR FROM THEM.

>> YOUR ADMINISTRATION HAS FILED MOTIONS DELAYING A RULING IN THIS CASE.

HOW DOES THAT JIBE WITH YOUR BOAST OF BEING A PROGRESSIVE?

>> LISTEN, THAT'S A -- THE DEFENDING IS A TECHNICALITY.

THAT'S THE OBLIGATION OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL DOESN'T HAVE A CHOICE.

BUT THE BIGGER QUESTION IS, DO WE ACCEPT THAT THE LEGACY OF SLAVERY STILL EXISTS IN OUR STATE TODAY?

AND THE ANSWER IS, OVER WELLINGLY, YES.

I KNOW WE'VE BEEN ASKED ABOUT WHITE PRIVILEGE.

WE'RE THE MOST DIVORCE STATE IN AMERICA AND IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN GOVERN THE PLACE.

>> WE NEED TO REVITALIZE OUR BLACK COMMUNITIES, WHICH HAVE BEEN PLAGUED BY DISINVESTMENT FOR DECADES.

IT'S RIGHT THERE ON THE WEBSITE.

IT'S VERY, VERY DETAILED.

LET ME SAY THIS.

THE GOVERNOR, WHEN HE RAN FOUR YEARS AGO, PROMISED A DIVERSITY STUDY.

IT'S FOUR YEARS LATER, WE HAVEN'T SEEN IT.

THEY JUST ANNOUNCED THE BEGINNING OF THE STUDY, AND SO I FIND SOME OF THE WORDS OF THE GOVERNOR HOLLOW WITH REGARD TO THIS.

HE HASN'T GIVEN NORTH CHARTER SCHOOLS.

HE HASN'T GIVEN BLACK-OWNED FIRMS CHANCES AT PUBLIC CONTRACTS.

AND THE BLACK OWNER -- THE ONLY ASSET BASED MANAGEMENT FIRM IN THE STATE THAT'S OWNED BY A BLACK IS SUING HIM FOR RACIAL DISCRIMINATION.

>> SO, ALL RIGHT, NEITHER OF THOSE GUYS GAVE AN ANSWER THAT SPOKE TO THE ISSUE, YET ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE RESULTS OF THIS CASE BECAUSE AS PATRICK SAID, IT'S SET FOR A HEARING THIS YEAR.

PASTOR, CAN YOU COMPARE AND CONTRAST CIATTARELLI AND MURPHY ON WHO MIGHT BE INCLINED TO IMPLEMENT A REMEDY, WHATEVER REMEDY THAT IS?

>> WELL, I MEAN, JUST TO BE, YOU KNOW, I WANT TO BE A LITTLE CAREFUL HERE IN HOW TO RESPOND TO THIS AND YOU KNOW, I'LL RESPOND TO THIS AS CHARLES BOYER, NOT IN MY OF MY OFFICIAL CAPACITY.

>> OKAY, FAIR ENOUGH.

>> YOU KNOW, ONE, JUST TO MAKE THE POINT THAT I MADE EARLIER, I MEAN, YOU HEARD THE RESPONSE OF EVEN JUST MENTIONING WHITE PRIVILEGE.

I JUST WANT TO MAKE THAT -- >> THE AUDIENCE, YOU MEAN?

>> EXACTLY.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, RIGHT?

AND SO, THAT'S ONE.

TWO, THE GOVERNOR, WHO I HAVE TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF RESPECT FOR AND CONSIDER AN ALLY, BUT DANCED AROUND IT.

FRANKLY, THE ADMINISTRATION COULD HAVE ADMITTED LIABILITY A LONG TIME AGO, AND WE COULD HAVE MOVED TOWARD RESOLUTION.

SO, THAT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE.

I THINK ON THE OTHER END OF THIS, CIATTARELLI JUST REALLY MOVED -- NEVER EVEN GAVE ANY KIND OF REAL RESPONSE IN REGARDS TO WHERE TO GO WITH THIS EITHER.

AND CHARTER SCHOOLS DEFINITELY AREN'T -- ARE NOT THE ANSWER.

SO, HERE WE HAVE THESE TWO DYNAMICS.

ONE IS IN RESPONSE TO FEAR OF A WHITE ELECTORATE, AND ONE IS IN SUPPORT OF A VITRIOLIC WHITE ELECTORATE SO THERE YOU HAVE IT AND WHY WE HAVE THE SITUATION THAT WE HAVE.

>> PATRICK, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE REMEDIES, DO YOU KNOW, THAT CAN RESULT FROM A RULING THAT WOULD FAVOR THE PLAINTIFFS IN THIS CASE?

>> YEAH, THE PLAINTIFFS SUGGEST ON POSSIBILITIES, THAT WOULD ALL HAVE TO BE NEGOTIATED BUT SOME OF THE THING -- AND I'LL JUST START BY SAYING THEY REALLY EMPHASIZE THAT THIS IS NOT WHAT COMES TO MIND WHEN A LOT OF PEOPLE HEAR INTEGRATION.

IT'S FORCED BUSSING.

THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT.

A LOT OF THESE THINGS ARE VOLUNTARY AND IT'S THINGS THAT ALREADY EXIST, SO IT'S MAGNET SCHOOLS THAT CAN ENROLL STUDENTS FROM OUTSIDE THE DISTRICT WHERE THEY LIVE.

VOTECH SCHOOLS.

IT'S ALLOWING STUDENTS TO CROSS DISTRICT BOUNDARIES.

THERE IS A TRANSFER PROGRAM RIGHT NOW IN THE STATE THAT ALLOWS IT BUT IT'S REALLY SMALL SO IT COULD EXPAND THAT.

EVEN CHARTER SCHOOLS, THEY HAVE THE ABILITY, POTENTIALLY, TO ENROLL STUDENTS BEYOND DISTRICTS SO THEY COULD BE KIND OF REORIENTED TO FOSTER INTEGRATION.

SO, FINALLY ONE OF THE OTHER OPTIONS SO TO CONSOLIDATE SOME OF THE OTHER DISTRICTS AS I THINK BOTH OF YOU KNOW THE STATE HAD HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF SCHOOL DISTRICTS.

I READ EVEN MORE THAN THE NUMBER OF MUNICIPALITIES SO THAT MEANS THEY KIND OF TRACK ON TO THE SEGREGATED TOWNS AND CITIES, SO IF THEY WERE CONSOLIDATED, THAT WOULD MAKE IT EASIER TO DIVERSIFY THE SCHOOLS.

>> MORE TO COME ON THIS STORY, AND WE WILL BE FOLLOWING UP.

PATRICK WALL IS SENIOR REPORTER FOR CHALKBEAT NEWARK, AND CHARLES BOYER IS FOUNDING DIRECTOR OF SALVATION AND SOCIAL JUSTICE.

THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU AND TO AMY TORRES.

THAT IS "CHAT BOX" FOR THIS WEEK.

YOU CAN FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER, @DAVIDCRUZNJ, AND BE SURE TO SUBSCRIBE TO THE YOUTUBE CHANNEL TO GET MORE "CHAT BOX," NJ BUSINESS BEAT WITH RHONDA SCHAFFLER AND NJ SPOTLIGHT NEWS WITH BRIANA VANNOZZI.

FROM THE ENTIRE CREW OVER HERE, I'M DAVID CRUZ.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> Announcer: MAJOR FUNDING FOR "CHAT BOX" WITH DAVID CRUZ IS PROVIDED BY FUEL MERCHANTS ASSOCIATION OF NEW JERSEY AND SMART HEAT NJ.

THE MEMBERS OF THE NEW JERSEY EDUCATION ASSOCIATION, MAKING PUBLIC SCHOOLS GREAT FOR EVERY CHILD.

NJM INSURANCE GROUP, SERVING THE INSURANCE NEEDS OF NEW JERSEY RESIDENTS AND BUSINESSES FOR MORE THAN 100 YEARS.

PROMOTIONAL SUPPORT IS PROVIDED BY INSIDER NJ, A POLITICAL INTELLIGENCE NETWORK DEDICATED TO NEW JERSEY POLITICAL NEWS.

INSIDER NJ IS COMMITTED TO GIVING SERIOUS POLITICAL PLAYERS AN INTERACTIVE FORUM FOR IDEAS, DISCUSSION, AND INSIGHT.

ONLINE AT INSIDERNJ.COM.