[triumphant music] ♪ [triumphant music continues] ♪ [triumphant music continues] ♪ [triumphant music continues] ♪ [triumphant music continues] ♪ - Hello and welcome to "Comic Culture."

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is artist Laura Lee Gulledge.

Laura Lee, welcome to Comm Culture.

- Oh, thank you so much for having me.

This is delightful.

- We met at Baltimore Comic-Con this past year.

You were in the All Ages Artist Alley area and I guess that kind of works into the type of books that you make.

You work in the young adult field.

I guess that's probably the fastest-growing area of comics, because it's not based on superheroes, it's based on just about anything.

So can you tell us a little bit about the type of comics that you make?

- Yeah, so the young adult genre is a really blossoming platform for storytelling because I think a lot of adults also are into young adult content, 'cause a lot of adults are still playing around with the themes that are being explored in coming-of-age stories around identities, and friendship and you know, finding your place in this world that is kind of hard to find your place in.

So I think it's a really beautiful space 'cause also how to tell good stories with depth that don't just resort to some classic tropes of, you know, violence and swearing and you know, some more adult content.

So I find a really wholesome space to play.

It's also, I started my career off as a middle school art teacher, so yeah, I was, like, long before I even discovered graphic novels, I was really into how to make creative inspiration accessible to young people and expression for empowerment.

And so when I discovered graphic novels and young adult graphic novels specifically, it kind of blew my mind, like wait, I can like teach through story in a way that in some ways is more accessible for a young person, because they think they really resonate with reading characters, going through experiences to resonate with them of like, "Oh I can relate to that."

'cause it sometimes that's a little easier than like their parent or their teacher because also I think the format of graphic novels is just so wonderfully intimate.

You know, it's like a one-on-one experience that you can carry with you.

So there's just so much I love about the genre, and there's so many good books, as you can tell.

And when I teach comics camps I bring my whole library with me and geek out with young people and say, "Hey what are the books that you're into that I should add to my library?"

So I can, 'cause there's so many wonderful voices and stories.

I think librarians, yeah, you can always go in and whatever story or issue you have, like, they can give you a prescription, like someone's made up book about that.

[laughs] - You mentioned young adults being popular, young adult fiction being popular with adults.

It's funny because I deal a lot with college students who are legally, they are adults, but in many ways, and I mean this, to the folks in the studio with me, no insult, in many ways they are still growing up because, you know, it's kind of like the tutorial stage of a video game.

You're sort of learning what it's like to be an adult but you don't really have to jump into it until you get out of college.

And then you're dealing with some crusty person like me who's trying to make sure that, you know, you do the job the way it's supposed to be done, darn it.

So, you know, books that are helping people sort of realize things about themselves are still gonna be important to somebody in their 20s and 30s, 'cause I don't think we really ever figure out who we are until we're maybe 90 years old and say "I'm okay."

- I definitely tell that to young people, 'cause even I only came out as autistic like a year ago actually, and so in my teaching since then I've been kind of amazed even see how my story has evolved talking to them like, oh actually, I guess this is why I started drawing about emotions so obsessively in my sketchbook.

[laughs] Adding they/them to our pronouns and like all these things that is, I'm continually figuring out in front of them, and 'cause I really wanna model to them that you never have things figured out, that you don't like, oh here's your identity and you just, it's set like a sculpture and it's permanent.

that the creative life, which most, you know, I feel like our world doesn't really celebrate as much, that constant change, like, having more of a multiplicity of things in your life instead of mono things in your life.

It's something that I definitely wanna show them and that it's not so scary 'cause I feel like it came across to me as really scary.

Like, what do you mean you don't ever, you don't have yourself figured out.

I'm like yeah, but this is what it is to be alive, so I'm gonna share my journey in a way that gives them hope, 'cause it's definitely not all easy to live authentically and to ask hard questions about yourself.

But art is an outlet to do that, which I feel like a lot of cartoonists that I meet have access to.

That's a gift that we can use for figuring out who we are.

'cause I didn't know who I was when I was making art about myself as a young person, but now looking back I can see, oh, this is what we were drawing about.

So yeah, you don't have to understand who you are to make art about yourself.

You know, it's just more scary.

[laughs] - Well, it's funny because you know, I think we've all of us creative types have done something that somebody else can look at from the outside and say, "Oh that's because of this."

And you can deny it because you're not thinking that way.

But then later on you will say, "Oh gosh, that person was right.

I was doing this.

It was a mirror of what I was going through, and I wasn't even aware of it."

So as an artist, somebody who is mirroring their own experiences, how do you sort of balance between, I guess consciously putting something in There to maybe help somebody, and unconsciously putting something in that you're working through that you're not even necessarily aware that you've maybe found a solution for?

- Oh gosh.

There's definitely a mixture of both of the things that, yeah, that we're intentionally trying to share, versus the things that we don't even realize we're sharing.

I feel like that I sign up for both.

There's the intentional content and the unintentional content, and often it's the unintentional content that teaches me a lesson through making the book.

'Cause I think that you have an idea of like, oh I wanna make a story, you know about this redhead from Virginia moved to New York, AKA me, but a fictionalized version, wink.

You know, [laughs] people won't know this is really about us even though it is.

And in it she is literally masking and wearing a mask and I'm drawing about a neurodivergent experience, but I had no idea that's what I was drawing about.

I thought I was just drawing about an introvert who was sensitive and sometimes it makes me cringe when I look back at something I made.

I'm like, oh I was not in a mentally good place when I made that.

And I feel like I can see that in the line work.

Like it looks really heavy and you know, so it's hard for me to look at it, but really I think that's part of what art is is being open to seeing what wants to come out, and the bravery to look at yourself a little differently.

So yeah, and I try to leave that space of like, I don't have it all figured out, I'm just gonna follow like we just want it.

This feels like it's part of the story, and we're curious about this and we feel like this ties in, and if we don't understand, yeah, everything on a logical level, I feel like that's better.

'Cause I'm in the magical realism category where it's a blend of reality in our imaginary world and I do feel like some images and metaphors that come through, they carry information, even if I don't on the conscious level understand it.

But I trust, I trust them and yeah, even if it's embarrassing sometimes or sometimes I'll be like, oh I accidentally like riffed off of something from a movie I saw and I didn't realize it or I don't know.

[laughs] - Well, you know it's funny because you're showing us page by page and was this something that you put together?

- This is the first one we read four graphic novels and like we're gonna make a graphic novel.

Even though I had zero training.

That's one reason I guess I trust my subconscious 'cause I'm a self-taught cartoonist, so I don't know the right way you're supposed to do things, and I like approaching comics with this sensibility of I see just the possibility, instead of like it's supposed to be one thing.

I'm like actually it could be anything.

It's like tofu.

it just soaks up whatever flavor you wanna put it in, so you can blend have things where it's like a hybrid of reality and imaginary 'cause that's how I experience the world.

You know, it's maybe not logical [laughs] to some people.

- It's funny, there is a freedom in not knowing exactly what you're doing, because you can do anything and sort of learn from it.

But at the same time when you do sort of learn a little bit, you can temper with making sure that the message that you are experimenting with is still readily understood by the audience, you're not going to accidentally break a rule that will pull them out of the moment.

So as you have evolved as an artist, do you find that you can find the right balance between that innate, I just wanna tell this story my way, and you know, but I need to make sure that it's clear.

How do you kind of balance that out?

- I think what's helped me is all the work I've done working with young people on making comics with them.

'Cause whenever I do school visits or workshops, I co-create an original story with the students I'm working with.

And I've done this, I don't know, maybe 150 times by now.

And I feel like the working with young people has sort of sculpted me into a better storyteller of like how to be more clear, how to get to the point, how to make it funny, how to not be a bummer when telling the truth.

[laughs] And so I sort of attribute them to sculpting me into like a vessel that is able to, so now I am putting out my ideas.

I'm trying to make it as accessible, as clear, as direct as possible.

So that's one reason I love zine format, 'cause it's like super small and accessible, and in my personal work, which you know, is more like my art therapy.

You know, bringing in like humor and things that I don't know take challenge, you know, even like challenging feelings and make them in a metaphorical way so I know that someone else can make this about them, 'cause yeah, I wanna make art and tell stories that people can make about themself, instead of just a making, oh this is all about me.

And it's the weird contradiction in art that the more vulnerable you are and the more that you dig like, well, what is this really about, Laura Lee?

Like underlying thing, that's the universal thing there, but that's the harder thing to reveal.

But the kids have sculpted me, because if you're not authentic they will eat you alive.

[Terence laughs] So they've made me a much better storyteller.

[laughs] - I was going to say, I mean it's gotta be daunting.

It's gotta be frightening to put so much of yourself and your feelings and your fears and things that you're going through into your work and saying to the world, "This may help somebody."

So you know when you have to cross that barrier between this is art therapy for me and this is now art therapy for everybody else to look at and maybe get something out of and maybe inspire them and maybe lead them in a direction that will help them.

How do you sort of find the courage to say, "I'm gonna be this open.

I'm gonna be that person who shares this part that nobody else should see?"

- I think I do it just 'cause that's what I needed when I was young.

Like I think a lot of us authors, especially in the young adult category, we are doing this work because we are trying to heal part of ourself.

We're trying to be the role model that we didn't have when we were young.

So I'm trying to be that person showing my feelings are not something to be ashamed and embarrassed about, and to normalize some things about being transparent and radically honest so that they won't feel that sort of, you know, just that need to like mask themself and to hide themself, 'cause that's something that I needed when I was young.

So I feel like that's why we do it.

And I definitely try to encourage them to tell, because also you only get other people to be vulnerable if you sort of show your hand first.

So like in social situations, I'm normally the icebreaker person, or the canary in the coal mine.

Like I'll be the first one to reveal like, "Oh God I'm starving, can we go to lunch?"

And everyone's like, "Oh yes," you know?

And I'm like I don't wanna bum everyone out, or the first person to say I have a need or the first person to make a joke.

And I think that, you know, by me sort of showing my hand then it sort of gives other people permission to share things about them.

You know, it's like a mirroring effect.

'Cause also I want them to tell their stories, you know.

- And you talk about the workshops that you do with, I guess, the YA audience.

So when you are going to schools or you're going to libraries and you're talking to people about creating comics, how do you make them feel comfortable enough that they can dig into their own selves and find something?

Because I know for a lot of folks, it's really tough to admit that you aren't perfect, especially when you're young, when maybe your peers are a little bit on the, shall I say, cruel side.

- Oh young people are so, they're really struggling with perfectionism, 'cause also it just feels like such a high-stakes world and everything is so documented.

And also young people they really see like, oh this piece, this drawing I made, it's not just a reflection of them, it like is them.

So if someone criticizes it, it's like, it's not that drawing is bad, it's like they're bad.

And so they do take it really personally, and so I try to really hold a container for modeling the process of like describing how I'm making decisions and why we're doing it, and that these things are not like all one or the other, this is terrible or it's the best.

But it's like actually this part of this idea works and this part of this is working, and sort of almost like how adult artists will bring that mindset to situations and that it's not perfect.

So even when I do drawing in front of them, I point out like, this is a production sketch and it's gonna be terrible so don't give me sass.

'Cause I've had students give me sass.

Like, I'm drawing out this thing.

They're like, "What's that?"

You know, "Oh, it looks," you know, "What's that supposed to be?"

I'm like "Guys, this is distracting from our creative flow process, 'cause this is not the space for us to bring that perfectionist lens."

So I try to just talk through the different steps is that starts to come out in them, and also just remind them that comics does not take itself seriously.

Like some of my student samples, it's just like a talking cube, you know?

It's not, like, it's a symbolic, also reminding them it's a symbolic storytelling language.

It's not about being realism, that's why you go and be a painter or whatnot.

So comics is symbolic storytelling, so it doesn't have to be real.

'Cause yeah, I just sort of, yeah, also celebrating the diversity of styles so they know that sort of anything goes and if anything, the bar should be lower than how they usually draw.

So if they, the student comes in drawing like super meticulous, I'm like, "Actually that's like too good.

You can't draw that more than once.

How are you gonna draw that page after page?"

You know, so it's almost giving them permission to, yeah, look at their art with a little less pressure.

But yeah, but that's a hard one.

I feel like we could talk all day about that.

[laughs] - Well, with my students, I talk a lot about how sometimes failure can be a good thing.

And I mean this like you do something and it's not 100%, or in my case I teach television production classes, they used a light incorrectly or they didn't set the focus on the camera a certain way when they needed to.

And it's one of those things that by not doing something perfectly, it teaches you how to not do that mistake again.

And I'm thinking with students who are experimenting with comics and with art in general, like you said, sometimes in that middle stage, it's kinda like the old TV show "The Incredible Hulk," it would start off with Bill Bixby and it would end with Lou Ferrigno, but there was this middle guy who wasn't quite the Hulk and he wasn't quite Bill Bixby, and you couldn't really, and this is a terrible analogy, but you couldn't really say that guy was the finished product.

He was somewhere in the middle and we'd get there either Bill Bixby or Lou Ferrigno.

So I think a lot of times it's tough to tell a young artist that, you know, the middle part, this part where you think it's not working, keep going because it's going to work out, 'cause you're going to get past this part and it will reveal itself.

Do you find that to be?

- I call that the 80% wall.

'Cause I studied art education in school, and then later decided I'm gonna be an artist now.

So it meant that a whole way I've had my teacher lens on and have asked people questions and been really curious about process.

That's one reason I love to, you know, talk about how we get ideas out, because I know that there's no one right way.

And I noticed that when I polled everybody that everybody hits the wall at 80% through a project.

It's 80% through that you run out of idea.

[laughs] And that's where you sort of like, well, I don't know how to finish this, now I got another idea.

Like, and I'm so scared of messing this up because of the time I've invested in it, that I would rather abandon it than risk messing it up.

So my theory is that's when the plan runs out and that's that last 20%, that's where you need to let the idea be what it wants to be, and that's when you often have to take a risk or trust it or surrender what you thought it was gonna be, and that's the part that I feel like people are really hard with overcoming, is that 80% wall.

'Cause I've noticed with, even with my books, like I don't even know what a book is really about until 80% in.

Then I'm like, "Oh wait, this is about vulnerability?

Ah man.

Like that's not what we hoped it would be.

That's not cool.

That's not fun."

So yeah, so at that point is when I actually sometimes will bring in anger and like emotional distancing with the work, you know, take a break from it.

You know, like, "You know, in my head this was perfect, but you know, in actuality it's just so disappointing.

Yeah, you don't care about it, yeah.

We might as well paint the background orange.

Yeah, we're gonna paint the background orange, 'cause we don't care about it," but then we paint the background orange, and it's like oh that changes everything about it.

So I think sometimes that fear voice gets in the way of like your genius voice, like, saying what it really wants to do, and that's like inviting in a little, I don't know, spirit, chaos, whatever you wanna call it.

But that's when the magic happens when the I fall in love with it, 'cause it surprises me.

And this happens when I make comics with young people.

It's like 80% through, we hit a wall, and I feel like "Oh my, they can feel the discomfort.

It's so uncomfortable they hate it."

Where I'm like, "Guys, we don't know how we're gonna solve this problem."

And we're just sort of like sitting in it and I'm like, "Guys, we'll figure it out."

And then some kid will be like, "Maybe there's a jet pack."

And I'm like, "Yes, a jet, thank you."

[laughs] So I think it's good for, yeah to... 'Cause that wall is really uncomfortable, so holding space for that and trusting that it's better to finish it than to just it undone gathering dust and making you feel guilty about not finishing it.

'Cause the world needs your idea.

Even if it's not perfect, better done than yeah, perfect.

- I always talk about to my students when they struggle with something, take a break, go outside, take a walk.

- Yes.

- Play guitar, you know, have a snack, go to the store, do anything except think about this project, then come back, look at it with a set of fresh eyes, and you'll find either the good or the bad or the solution because your mind will kind of process things through, and it is that- - Yeah, that's the retake.

- Yeah, it's that critical distance that we sometimes don't want to give ourselves.

We're just too busy beating ourselves up over stuff.

But gosh, just taking that breather and looking at it without so much being in the forest, but now looking at the trees, you know, you can kind of get a better sense of it.

Now- - I apply this in people's houses too.

Whenever I go into people's houses I say, "I see the trees, not the leaves."

And they're like, "Don't look at that clutter."

I'm like, "I don't see the clutter.

I see the forest."

[laughs] - It's kinda like, you know, we're always conscious of what we are wearing, but nine times out of 10, if we walked out of the bedroom and we hadn't zipped our fly, no one's going to notice, but when we discover it, we're gonna be mortified.

You know, but chances are no one's looking, and if they are, they're going to politely say, "Oh, you know, you forgot to zip your fly," and you can just correct that problem.

But we are very in tune with our own foibles and mistakes that we'd rather fixate on that than the 80% that's really good at that moment.

- Oh yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that young people, I feel really passionate about telling young people how vital of a resource their imagination is.

'Cause when you have ideas that aren't picture form, which is especially strong in neurodivergent people, those are visions, and I feel like that it's information that the world needs.

And artists have been trained to be so critical of ourself and to not feel empowered and not to trust ourself.

You know, world teaches everybody not to trust themselves.

And so I think that it's detrimental for our world when creatives who have access to information that is ahead, that's future thinking, that's revelationary.

And instead of those ideas being able to come out and be supported and nourished, it's this really competitive environment that they're raised in where they think that they can't, yeah, they second guess themselves so much that the ideas can't even come out, 'cause they're thinking too much about what it's good for, or if it's good enough, versus trusting it.

And so I feel like that, yeah, young people need a lot of extra, we need to, like, make them all draw about their critics.

'cause these critics are like, it's like it's not good for all of us, 'cause we need those ideas.

Like, [laughs] they help us with real-world problems.

So instead of like just being in the corner like, "Oh I'm nothing, I'm terrible."

You know, that's why it's like, let's help, yeah, [laughs] these sensitive artists, - Like you say, we do need the sensitive artists out there.

I mean it's in times of crisis we turn to television, we were watching a lot of Netflix and we were reading a lot of books and we were buying a lot of comics, you know, so art is what gets us through those sad times, those difficult times.

You know, I think we do need to kind of elevate that mindset that people have that art is something that shouldn't be replaced by, let's say, AI.

- Oh gosh, yeah, hold on to that.

If anything I feel like collaborating, artnering with each other is what helps young people learn more compassion for themselves.

'cause when you collaboratively co-create projects, I will see so much more appreciation and compassion that they show for other people that they won't show for themself.

And I feel like that experience, and also sharing ownership of things where it's less about, you know, my ego, this is mine.

It's like, oh this is ours.

'cause also co-creating, it softens the critic, but also that's how we co-create culture and a world.

And I mean everything, every relationships we have in life is co-created.

And so when artists are only in isolation.

Learning how to work with just themself, that's one, you know, that's its own sort of thing, but I think that they need that balance of like working with others, and that really helps soften the perfectionism.

'Cause yeah, that's one thing that helped me with softening my critic, 'cause I also didn't wanna bring my critic in with my friend, 'cause I'm like, oh I don't want to yeah, bring my critic into this conversation.

'cause I feel like, yeah, I'm much more loving and accepting when the idea is shared then if it's like only a reflection of me.

- You know, sometimes working with somebody, they are our cheerleader in a way, and they will say, "No, this is a great idea.

Don't be so critical of yourself.

Just, you know, stick with it.

You can make this work."

And sometimes we do need to hear that, so that artnering, as you call it, is a great way for us to find that cheerleader who's going to make sure that we don't kick ourselves a little too hard.

- If anything, we need to bring in more of our humanity that's like already inside of us that we've just been taught to deny and judge instead of trusting, you know, 'cause I talk about the creative genius as a helper spirit.

So when I work with young people, I'm like, "Yeah, so there's an invisible collaborator here.

His name is Gene, Genie, he's my little rainbow star, you know, that's what he looks like in my head because I'll be like, oh Gene just gave me a good idea.

I'll pass it along.

I don't know if it's a good idea but it's Gene's, so if it's bad it's not my fault.

So I think that also helps balance the creative experience for young people to realize that you're not alone.

The ideas don't come from you, they come through you.

So in that way it makes it less of a reflection of you, and it's less high-stakes, it's more, we're just like a little radio receiver and we're just sensitive to receiving certain information.

But it's not like all us, like from me, it's like, oh no, it's just, I'm just picking up on stuff.

That's why there's so many books that are similar that come out at the same time.

You know, like Rain and I are always doing similar books at the same time.

[laughs] 'Cause we're drinking out the same part of the well.

- They're telling us that we are out of time.

If the folks watching wanted to find out more about your work online, where can they find you?

- I am at, whoislauralee.com, and on the social media as lauraleegulledge.

- Laura Lee, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to talk with me today.

It's been a fun half hour.

- Oh, this is delightful, Terence, thank you so much - And thanks everyone at home for watching "Comic Culture."

We will see you again soon.

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