>> Welcome to "The Aaron Harber" show.

This is Laurence Steinberg who wrote "You and Your Adult Children".

You learn a lot and it is very thought provoking.

The fact that it is suitable not just for parents of teenagers and young adults, but I think it is great for kids.

Teenagers should read this book.

You know kids in their 20s and even 30s should read this book.

Maybe 40s, too.

Grandparents should read this book.

There is really something that you can learn no matter what your ages.

Okay, and I know that we went in depth on a number of subjects.

I'm going to try to fire away on a few things.

One thing that I liked is you do weave in some of your own experiences into the book.

And early in the book you talk about how the wedding planning for your wedding turned into a situation where you had essentially an estrangement.

What was interesting to me was that my experience both personal and you know observing friends is that usually when there is a conflict in the planning of a wedding, it usually involves the woman who is getting married and one or more generally of the soon to be mother-in-laws or mothers.

Your situation was different.

And you didn't really disclose what the issue was.

So I want, open disclosure, what actually happened?

You have me so curious.

>> My wife and I were 30 when we were getting married.

And you know, so we felt like we were old enough to make our own decisions about what we wanted.

>> That's reasonable.

>> And we were going to pay for a lot of it ourselves anyway.

My wife's mother was very generous.

My parents didn't like the plans for the ceremony, they didn't like the plans for the reception.

And you know, we -- I bent over backwards to try to please them.

My wife was very supportive, but it was a difficult time for my parents and me.

And you know, I had this conversation with my father, and as I say in the book he and I were very, very close growing up.

Extremely close.

He said to me your mistake is that you think that this wedding is just about you and your wife.

It's not.

It is about our families.

And that is why we get to have some input into what you're going to do.

And I said you know, we're not teenagers any more.

We're not in our early 20s even, we get to decide what we're doing.

And my parents were so angry that they really acted, I think, improperly at the wedding.

>> I was going to say childish.

>> Exactly.

They, they barely said a word.

And you know, it's hard.

It is our wedding day and we're trying to have a good time.

And we did, but for me one of my memories of that very special and important event is, you know, my parents displeasure.

And their acting out.

And so when we left for our honeymoon, without saying anything to my parents which was very unusual for my relationship with them.

And we finally reconciled when we had a child.

So when our son was born, you know, I was wanted my parents, his grandparents involved, my parents wanted to be involved and we had to somehow reconcile and we did.

>> And that was a couple years later?

>> Yes, and interestingly enough, my mother said "all is forgiven" as if we were the people that had done the bad thing.

I want to talk to my dad about it at some point, so we were over at their house having dinner.

And so everything had been reconciled at that point.

I said he and I were staying up and having a night cap after dinner and I said can we talk about our relationship a little?

And he said relationship?

What relationship?

I'm your father.

And I think -- >> You say that in the book.

>> I say it to make the point that I can't imagine a father today saying that to his kid.

I mean my father was born in 1926.

He was in the military.

He was a very stoical and great dad.

But for him talking about relationships was like the further thing from his mind.

So, you know, it was strange and there was a temporary estrangement.

But everything became -- once our son was born, everything was forgiven.

>> I love this story and I appreciate your willingness to tell more personally.

I want to rapid fire a number of questions, but you just mentioned estrangement.

I thought your section on what you wrote about estrangement was interesting.

I don't remember seeing anything quite like it.

One of the things that you did -- when I think of estrangement, I think of a relationship where, for whatever reason, two people just break off all contact.

And usually there is some very serious ill will and feeling.

You approached it in a more nuanced manner and you talked about different kinds and levels of estrangement.

Because it seems that there are a lot of families -- there are different kinds of estrangement phenomenon going on.

So talk about that, just what is different and how do we get over that and resolve that?

What advice do you have for people who -- because I think when you're estranged for a lot of people, you really don't want that to be a permanent condition.

>> Right.

>> Some do, though.

If it is a toxic relationship or if they were abused or whatever, but even if you were abused by a parent I believe there is part of you that because that person is your parent that you wish you could have a positive relationship.

>> I got interested in this because when I decided to write the book I went to see what else was out there and it was book after book on estrangement.

There was nothing about normal relationships between parents and their adult children.

And I would start reading these articles about you know, one quarter of all young adults are estranged from their parents and I thought this can't possibly be true.

I started to read the research literature.

That's not true at all.

So like you I went into it thinking estrangement is when people break off contact and they're not interested in reconciling.

But that is not how it is being used by a lot of people who are doing -- I'll use this word carefully, research on -- >> Loosely.

You're using the word loosely.

>> Yeah, sorry.

So I think that throughout the parent-child relationship there will be ups and downs.

There will be times you're not getting along with each other.

I think as parents we often have a lot of difficulty acknowledging that we have difficult feelings about our children.

Anger, but I think there are temporary periods of time when people probably just need to distance themselves from each other.

>> Take a break.

>> Take a break.

And sometimes, you know, I think as I try to do with my dad, you sit down and you talk about what happened.

And you probably can work it out, it might take more than one conversation.

For some families it might take seeing a counsellor.

But I think that for some people, their experience is that they try, that one of the parties tries to reconcile and the other party says no.

And the first party tries again and the other party says no.

And I just think that sometimes you just have to wait and be patient and something, in our case the birth of my son, and other times -- >> So your solution is have a kid?

>> I mean, that certainly keeping the grandparents -- then they become grandparents -- interested.

But we want to be careful in how we use the word.

So -- >> I'm going to jump around a lot.

In terms of what we see for kids staying at home, is some of that a function of how we have spoiled our kids?

>> I don't think so.

I know that is what a lot of people believe.

>> I certainly believe that.

>> I think that there is a small proportion of kids who just would rather, you know, be on the parents dime for longer if they can.

But like my college students told anyway had to move home, it isn't what they want today be doing, I really don't think so.

I think it is mainly an economic problem due primarily to the huge gap between increases in the cost of housing and increases in salaries.

So the housing costs went up about five times faster than salaries have.

If you're living in an expensive part of the country, like the east coast or the west coast, it is just very hard to afford to -- to not just to buy your own place but to rent your own place.

I think there is that.

I think that the counter part to that is that today's parents of adult children have been involved in their lives from the get go.

>> You mentioned helicopter parents and lawn mower parent.

To me the argument that you were making in the book was that hey, these kids are used to their parents taking care of everything at a level that I don't know if we have seen previously in history.

>> I don't think so except maybe -- >> But you're used to that as a kid, isn't it likely to make you feel entitled to some extent?

>> I don't know if it is likely to make you feel entitled, but I think it is likely for you to be more accepting of it.

>> You're being magnanimous.

>> Yes, but I think it also makes the parents more likely to want to rush to their kids aide.

I mean I tell a couple stories about the way that parents now communicate with their kids college professors to call to complain about their grades that their kid got in college.

My parents didn't even know where I was applying for college.

They just said we'll pay for it, you decide where to go.

>> My parents didn't even care if I went to college, talk about low expectations.

>> Low expectations or they just said it is your decision.

Today we hear stories of parents writing a kids application essay for them.

>> I hear they're quite good.

>> I think admission committees can probably tell the difference.

>> Now it is Chat GPT doing the writing.

>> But if it becomes regularized, then I think neither the child nor the parent is going to think that there is something amiss here.

And it has become regularized.

As you know the most common living arrangement today for people in their 20s to live with their parents.

Not even as it was in the great depression.

It wasn't even that in the 1890s.

It is really, you know, it changed a lot.

>> What about expectations?

One of the things that I have seen, I have been fascinated by watching different schools, elementary schools, middle schools, high schools, and how they operate.

I have been fascinated by what seems to me to be their impact of the expectations a principal has of students and faculty.

Faculty members and what they expect of their students.

And the pattern that I have seen is that when they have very high expectations of their students, it seems to me the majority of students rise to that level.

What about the expectations of parents?

Have the expectations of parents in our country gone down?

And if so, how has that impacted kids?

Culturally you can look at different subgroups and there are expectations within that culture.

And you have seen the results.

I mean more generically across society, are the expectations of parents lower and is that manifested in what you just talked about where, oh, I'm going to help Johnny or Jill with her essay or write it rather than have them do it themselves.

>> I think parental expectations matter a lot.

I did a lot of research on student achievement and parental involvement, it is clear that parental expectations matter, but I think that what is happened is that parents, particularly in the middle class and professional class, have gotten obsessed with where their child goes to college.

So the expectation isn't that they do well in school, it is that they get into Harvard or Stanford.

You know?

And so the parents are basically saying -- and we saw this from the bribery cases that were in the news a few years ago.

>> R city blues.

>> When parents write the essays or call about grades, they're doing it to boost their child's chances of getting into a more elite and competitive university.

I don't know but I think that parent's expectations for that are actually higher now than they were in the past.

>> And there is a certain co-hort demographically.

We asked a multi-ethnic sample of students what is the lowest grade you could get without your parents getting angry.

And there was huge ethnic differences in that.

Asian-American kids say A minus and it went down from there.

There will are big, big differences cross culturally and ethnicically for parental expectations.

But regardless of the ethnic group the higher the expectations the better the child performs.

>> What about drugs and legal and illegal drugs.

We now live in a country where the vast majority of states have legalized, at least for medical purposes, the use of marijuana.

Many states have legalized marijuana for recreational use.

Marijuana was available to kids illegally for decades.

And now so many other drugs now and so many other drugs that young people try out and of course separately the horrendous Fentanyl issue.

How has that affected development and progress?

And I say it in the context for marijuana and, you know, my attitude is that any adult that wants to smoke or have an edible or whatever, that is their decision.

But certainly even though at a lower rate we know marijuana can be addictive.

Certainly we know for some people it affects motivation.

And a number of other factors, what is your take on the role of drugs in the development and the progress of kids today?

>> I think that people are not familiar enough with what neuroscience fells us about this.

Neuroscience clearly says that exposure to recreational drugs, marijuana, tobacco, alcohol, or hard drugs, exposure to those substances before the age of 16 or so increases your chances of becoming dependent on them by ten times compared to people who are exposed to the same substances but wait until they're 21 or so.

That is because we understand now that the brain is still maturing during the adolescent years, and that the brain is, you know, the word we use is plastic.

It is still very plastic, and the parts of the brain that are responsive to recreational drugs are especially plastic in that time.

So to me, I honestly feel conflicted about the legalization of marijuana, but I don't think we have a lot of data yet, if it is increased marijuana for people 21 and older it is probably okay.

>> 25 and older.

>> It is certainly healthier than alcohol and tobacco.

>> Alcohol, if you're going to be addicted to something, not that I want people to have to make this choice, marijuana is certainly a preferred addiction without -- I mean when you look at alcohol, when you look at it's effect on the brain, in terms of literally destroying brain cells, the most recent research show there's is no net benefit to consuming alcohol.

When you look at higher addiction rates and the impact on and the behavior, loss of inhibition, domestic violence, crime, automobile fatalities we're a society that promotes drinking.

>> Yes, marijuana is a huge social spearmint and we don't know what the result is yet.

If we can control the age.

Once you open the door up for people to purchase it you open it up to them buying it for younger friends.

It is stuff to do.

There are things that work, but antidrug and antialcohol education doesn't do very much.

>> What does work?

>> Controlling the supply rather than trying to change the demand.

Instead of minimum age restrictions, pegged to 21 and older, it has been shown to work.

I was a consultant who had a compete on this and it was quite clear from looking at the report that raising the age of tobacco products, raising the age of tobacco purchasing to 21 could make a huge, huge difference.

So I don't know how well the purchase age for marijuana laws are being enforced and that to me is the big, big question and what state governments need to be able to do.

>> And marijuana certainly -- there is many instances where it medically helps people, people with PTSD or other afflictions, but marijuana and tobacco have been available to kids in middle school and certainly in high school as well.

I'm not sure how how much -- I would not give up on education.

I would rather say is there an approach we can use educationally that is effective?

>> You're a fact based person and I would be happy to send you the research, but -- >> I wasn't a fan of D.A.R.E.

>> D.A.R.E.

didn't work.

But I think that the results are underwhelming to say the least.

As opposed to what we know about limiting access.

So there have been very good studies done that show the more retail outlets you have selling control or tobacco within a certain radius of high schools the more drinking and smoking there will be in those high schools.

So we can pass laws that they have to be a certain distance away.

And people use recreational drugs because they make them feel good.

There is really nothing you can do about that.

As I have argued elsewhere.

Adolescence is inherently a time when people like to experiment with risky things.

You can steer their risk taking into healthy risk taking activities, but you won't elimination their risky things.

>> When you're 15, 18, 21, 25 you think you're immortal.

You may hear about the dangers of something, but your attitude is I can handle it and it's not going to happen to me.

>> Sure, we have a name for it.

I can have unprotected sex and not get pregnant.

That happens to other people, not me.

And they -- >> That applies to a lot of older people, too.

>> Exactly, but -- >> That is more a function of what alcohol does to you.

>> But from a problem mystic standpoint, if you have unprotected sex and you're 16 years old, the odds are you're not going to get pregnant unless you're having it frequently.

The costs of being on the wrong side of that bet can be pretty large.

>> So I know we only have a few minutes left.

I want to talk about screens and video games.

I really -- I didn't see a lot of that in the book.

You referenced it more obliquely.

Give me your opinion on that.

We have 60 seconds and maybe we'll continue this in a special part 3.

>> I'm one of those people that thinks that the way that the popular press has been reporting this is way overstating.

There is no conclusive evidence that exposure to social media harms teenager's mental health.

>> Social media or video gaming?

>> Either, frankly.

>> Really?

>> You think about video games and violence.

People say like after column bine it's because of the violent video games.

They have video games all over the world and they don't have shootings in Japan like we do here.

>> They also don't have access to weapons.

>> Then it's not the video game, it is the access to weapons.

>> We talked about the opioid problem, and so we got -- that is a huge problem.

Access to firearms is a huge problem.

And we're having this national conversation about instagram?

Please.

Let's get our priorities right about what experiences really affect kids lives and which ones people are jumping on because it is easy to point the finger at Meta, Google, and I just don't think the data are there.

>> I want to talk about that and what data you have seen.

This is the conclusion of part 2 in our special two-part series.

We may sneak in a part three as a web special or maybe you can watch it on television, but I want to thank Dr. Laurnece Steinberg for a great conversation and a great book.

Thank you for watching.

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