REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

OH, DO WE HAVE A SPECIAL SHOW TODAY.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE BEINGS AND MINDS OF ALL TIME IS HERE, LAWRENCE WESCHLER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>LAWRENCE: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>LORENE: YOUR BOOKS HAVE STAYED WITH ME LIKE NOTHING I HAVE EVER READ AND SO I WANT TO REVISIT SOME OF YOUR OLDER BOOKS, ALTHOUGH YOU HAVE WRITTEN A LOT SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN HERE.

YOU ARE THE AUTHOR OF WHAT'S CALLED CREATIVE NONFICTION.

YOU WERE A STAFF WRITER AT THE NEW YORKER FOR 20 YEARS, YOU WERE A TWO-TIMES JAMES POLK AWARD WINNER.

YOU GOT THE LANNAN LITERARY AWARD, WHICH IN SANTA FE THAT MEANS SO MUCH TO US, IT MEANS IN THE WORLD TOO, BUT WE LOVE OUR LANNAN PEOPLE.

THIS, MY FAVORITE, MR. WILSON'S CABINET OF WONDER .

IT WAS SHORT-LISTED FOR THE PULITZER PRIZE AND THE NATIONAL BOOK CRITIC CIRCLE AWARD AND THIS ONE, EXTRAORDINARY THINKING , EVERYTHING THAT RISES: A BOOK OF CONVERGENCES .

THIS WON THE NATIONAL CRITIC'S CIRCLE BOOK AWARD.

SO YOU HAVE TAUGHT AT ALL THE LEADING SCHOOLS, YOU ARE WITH NYU RIGHT NOW?

>>LAWRENCE: I RETIRED FROM NYU, I AM JUST WRITING NOW.

>>LORENE: OH YOU DID, OH GOOD.

>>LAWRENCE: BY THE WAY, I APOLOGIZE I HAVE A LITTLE LARYNGITIS BUT BEAR WITH ME.

>>LORENE: I WILL, I WILL HANG ON YOUR EVERY WORD.

YOU ALSO DID A LOT OF VISIONARY KIND OF ADMINISTERIAL THINGS, PROGRAMS THAT YOU SET UP LIKE THE NEW YORK INSTITUTE OF HUMANITIES.

>>LAWRENCE: I WAS THE DIRECTOR OF THE NEW YORK INSTITUTE FOR HUMANITIES AT NYU FOR FIFTEEN YEARS.

AND FOR FIVE OF THOSE YEARS I WAS ALSO SIMULTANEOUSLY THE ARTISTIC DIRECTOR OF THE CHICAGO HUMANITIES FESTIVAL.

SO I DID A LOT OF PROGRAMMING.

>>LORENE: OH YEAH, YEAH.

>>LAWRENCE: HAD A LOT OF FUN.

>>LORENE: NOW THAT IS THE NORMAL PART OF AN INTERVIEW WITH AN EXTRAORDINARY AUTHOR, BUT WHAT PEOPLE SAY ABOUT YOU IS SO EXTRAORDINARY.

THE ATLANTIC , FOR EXAMPLE, WRITING ABOUT YOU SAID, "YOUR ENTIRE BODY OF WORK CONTAINS THE DISQUIETING STRANGENESS THAT LURKS AT THE HEART OF HUMAN EXPERIENCE."

BUT THIS IS NOT IN A CREEPY, SPOOKY, DISQUIETING, IT IS LIKE THE WONDROUS NATURE AND IT IS A REBIRTH OF WONDER WHENEVER I READ YOU.

YOUR FRIEND, IAN FRAZIER, SAID THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT "THE WONDER OF EVERYTHING THAT CAN'T BE KNOWN FOR SURE," AND THAT'S TANTALIZING.

>>LAWRENCE: THERE IS A GREAT POEM OF W.H.

AUDEN ABOUT ARCHAEOLOGY, IT IS ONE OF HIS LAST POEMS AND HE SAYS, "THE ARCHAEOLOGIST DELVES INTO DWELLINGS VACANCIED LONG AGO ABOUT WHICH HE HAS NOT MUCH TO SAY THAT HE CAN KNOW FOR SURE, THE LUCKY MAN."

>>LORENE: OH HOW WONDERFUL, I MUST, I MUST GET THAT.

WELL YES.

ONE OF THE PROBLEMS THAT YOU HAVE BECAUSE YOUR BOOKS CANNOT BE CATEGORIZED IS WHERE BOOKS, THEY ARE NOT FICTION SO THEY ARE NOT ALPHABETIZED BY AUTHOR AND BOOKSTORES ARE IN A QUANDARY.

>>LAWRENCE: WELL I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT ACTUALLY.

I DON'T THINK OF MYSELF AS A CREATIVE NONFICTION WRITER, I THINK OF IT AS WRITERLY NONFICTION.

>>LORENE: WHAT?

>>LAWRENCE: WRITERLY.

>>LORENE: WRITERLY NONFICTION.

>>LAWRENCE: I WRITE AS IF THE READING MATTERED AND IT IS MEANT TO BE READ AS IF THE WRITING MATTERED.

AND TO THE EXTENT THAT IS TRUE, THERE ARE OTHER AUTHORS LIKE THAT, THEY SHOULD BE IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER WITH LITERATURE.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>LAWRENCE: SO AND IT DRIVES ME CRAZY BECAUSE I GO BACK AND FORTH IN MY CAREER BETWEEN WHAT I CALL "POLITICAL TRAGEDIES" AND "CULTURAL COMEDIES."

NONE OF WHICH YOU TALKED ABOUT WERE THE ONES ABOUT TORTURE IN LATIN AMERICA OR IRAQ OR BOSNIA OR VARIOUS PLACES, POLAND.

AND THEN I WOULD ALSO WRITE ABOUT MR. WILSON, AND THE MUSEUM OF JURASSIC TECHNOLOGY, ROBERT IRWIN THE ARTIST AND SEEING IS FORGETTING IS ABOUT, I CALL THAT BOOK, SEEING IS FORGETTING THE NAME OF THE BOOK I MEANT TO BUY.

>>LORENE: WE ARE SPEAKING ABOUT IT NOW.

I LOVE THE TITLE OF THIS BOOK, SEEING IS FORGETTING THE NAME OF THE THING ONE SEES AND THIS IS BASED ON CONVERSATIONS WITH THE PAINTER, ROBERT... >>LAWRENCE: HE'S THE ARTIST, ROBERT IRWIN.

>>LORENE: THE ARTIST, YEAH.

>>LAWRENCE: AND HE STARTED AS A PAINTER BUT THEN HE KIND OF SLOWLY OVER MANY YEARS, THAT WAS ACTUALLY MY FIRST BOOK.

>>LORENE: REALLY?

>>LAWRENCE: HE IS A CALIFORNIA ARTIST, A LIGHT AND SPACE ARTIST.

THE REASON I AM HERE RIGHT NOW IS BECAUSE OF HELEN PASHGIAN, WHO IS A MARVELOUS, MARVELOUS, SHE IS 87 YEARS OLD ARTIST OF THAT SAME GROUP AS HIM, THESE LIGHT AND SPACE ARTISTS IN CALIFORNIA AND SHE IS ONLY REALLY BEGINNING TO BE ACKNOWLEDGED RIGHT NOW.

BUT AND YOU WOULD SAY THE SAME THING OF HER, THESE ARE PEOPLE FOR WHOM THEY ARE ALL ABOUT, THEY START OUT MAKING OBJECTS BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ABOUT WHAT ART IS, IS HOW YOU PERCEIVE YOURSELF PERCEIVING THE THINGS THAT ARE, IN BOTH OF THEIR CASES, IT'S ABOUT THE LONG, SLOW PROCESS OF LEARNING TO SEE AND OF ALL THE WONDERS IN THE ART WORLD YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT, THE BUILDING WE ARE IN RIGHT NOW AND HAVING ALL OF THIS GREAT ART.

BUT THE GREATEST ART, THE GREATEST WONDER, THE GREATEST WONDER OF ALL, IS JUST WHAT IS GOING ON WHEN YOU ARE LOOKING AT SOMETHING.

I MEAN ROBERT IRWIN TALKS ABOUT, HE STARTED OUT JUST BEING A CONVENTIONAL PAINTER BUT LATER IN HIS CAREER HE GOT TO THE POINT WHERE ALL HE WAS DOING WAS TAKING A LITTLE PIECE OF STRING AND OUTLINING A PIECE OF GROUND AND JUST SAYING, "LOOK!

LOOK!"

YOU KNOW, BUT REALLY LOOK AND FOR YOU TO REALLY SEE SOMETHING, YOU HAVE TO JUST FORGET EVERYTHING YOU KNOW ABOUT IT, THE NAME, YOU KNOW, THE CONTEXT, THE HISTORY, YOU JUST REALLY, REALLY LOOK.

AND WITH HIM, I MEAN YOU'RE VERY NICE TO TALK ABOUT HOW I'VE CHANGED YOUR LIFE TO SOME DEGREE, BUT TO WAKE UP IN THE MORNING, EVERY MORNING, AND JUST LOOK UP AT THE CEILING, FOR ONE THING THE LIGHT ON IN THE CEILING ON ANY GIVEN DAY AND JUST HOW SUBTLY YOUR ENTIRE WORLD SWIMS INTO BEING.

IT IS UNBELIEVABLE, IT IS JUST ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEVABLE EVERY DAY.

AND HELEN IS CERTAINLY LIKE THAT AT THE SITE SANTA FE RIGHT NOW, I MEAN IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY SHOW OF JUST THAT EXPERIENCE.

YOU CAN'T WALK THROUGH IT QUICKLY, YOU HAVE TO JUST SLOW DOWN AND ANYWAY SHE IS A GREAT ARTIST TOO.

>>LORENE: I WENT TO THAT EXHIBIT BECAUSE I KNEW THAT YOU HAD GIVEN A LECTURE THERE AND YOU CAME HERE THIS VISIT BECAUSE OF SITE SANTA FE.

SITE SANTA FE IS A CONTEMPORARY ART MUSEUM, ONE OF THE JEWELS OF SANTA FE, AND THEY NURTURE INNOVATION, DISCOVERY, INSPIRATION THROUGH THE ART OF TODAY AND THEY MAKE IT AN EXPERIENCE AND SO I WENT INTO THE HELEN, HOW DO YOU SAY HER LAST NAME?

>>LAWRENCE: PASHGIAN.

>>LORENE: PASHGIAN EXHIBIT OF THE SCHOOL OF LIGHT AND SPACE AND YOU WERE GIVING A LECTURE ABOUT HOW CALIFORNIA HOW IT IS AND HOW THE LIGHT AND ART.

AND I HAD NEVER BEEN TO ANYTHING LIKE THAT, I WILL TELL OUR VIEWERS WHO LOVE ART THAT THAT EXHIBIT WILL BE AT SITE SANTA FE UNTIL MARCH 2022.

>>LAWRENCE: YOU HAVE TO GO.

>>LORENE: SO I WENT IN HAVING NO IDEA AND THERE IS ONE ROOM WHERE YOU HAVE TO WEAR BOOTIES AND THE LIGHT IS DISQUIETING.

>>LAWRENCE: WELL YOU CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT.

>>LORENE: WELL EXACTLY, I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT THE SPACE, I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT ANYTHING.

>>LAWRENCE: THE BEAUTY OF THINGS THAT CAN'T BE KNOWN FOR SURE.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

AND ACTUALLY, I CAME OUT KIND OF WITH MY HEAD SPINNING THERE.

THREE ROOMS TO EXPERIENCE, I SAT DOWN I DID THE WHOLE THING.

>>LAWRENCE: AND EACH OF THEM ARE ON FIVE AND A HALF MINUTE ROTATIONS IN TERMS OF THE LIGHT IN THE ROOM COMING UP AND GOING DOWN AND COMING BACK UP.

AND THE MORE IT CHANGES, THE MORE CONFUSED YOU ARE.

IT IS NOT LIKE IF YOU SAT SOME PLACE FOR FIVE MINUTES YOU WOULD BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT, IT JUST GETS MORE AND MORE CONFOUNDING.

>>LORENE: BUT SINCE YOUR JOB WAS TO GIVE A LECTURE ON THIS, IF YOU COULD TELL ME A LITTLE ABOUT WHAT IS THE SCHOOL OF LIGHT AND SPACE?

>>LAWRENCE: SCHOOL OF LIGHT AND SPACE ART, YEAH, RIGHT.

SO, THIS WAS PRIMARILY A GROUP OF ARTISTS IN L.A. AND SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA BEGINNING IN THE 60S AND 70S AND THERE WERE VARIOUS ACCOUNTS OF WHAT WAS GOING ON.

THIS IS ART THAT HAS TO DO WITH THE SPECIFIC LIGHT OF L.A., WHICH IS VERY AMBIGUOUS.

VERY AMORPHOUS.

>>LORENE: MY HOMETOWN.

>>LAWRENCE: YEAH.

WHICH HIGH SCHOOL?

>>LORENE: MARSHALL HIGH AND HOLLYWOOD HIGH.

>>LAWRENCE: BIRMINGHAM.

SO NOW WE KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT EACH OTHER.

BIRMINGHAM AND VAN NUYS, BUT THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THE LIGHT IN L.A., WHICH IS PARTLY CAUSED BY THE STILLNESS OF THE MOUNTAINS.

WHAT YOU HAVE IS A WEST-FACING DESERT COMING AGAINST THE COAST ON THE NORTHERN HEMISPHERE WHERE THE CURRENT COMING DOWN THE WESTERN SIDE OF THE CONTINENT IS A VERY COLD CURRENT.

AND THEN YOU HAVE THE PLATE TECTONICS OF THE SAN GABRIELS, WHICH BY THE WAY, HERE IS SOMETHING AMAZING, THE SAN GABRIELS IN PASADENA, ALTADENA, WHICH IS WHERE HELEN PASHGIAN COMES FROM, RISE FASTER THAN ANY OTHER BASIN TO PEAK IN THE WORLD, FASTER THAN THE HIMALAYAS BECAUSE I MEAN IN OTHER WORDS, THE HIMALAYAS GRADUALLY ARE FOOTHILLS UNTIL THEYARE WHEN YOU ARE IN ALTADENA, YOU GO FROM SEA LEVEL BASICALLY UP TO 10,000 SOME ODD FEET WITHIN LIKE A MILE.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOODNESS.

NO, I GREW UP THERE, I HAD NO IDEA.

>>LAWRENCE: WELL, PART OF THE REASON YOU DON'T IS BECAUSE IT IS SMOGGY, BECAUSE SMOG IS BEING TRAPPED BY IT AND THERE IS A PHENOMENA OF LIGHT IN L.A.

WHICH PHYSICISTS HAVE A NAME FOR THIS WHICH IS EXTREMELY ARCANE AND YOU TAKE OUT YOUR REPORTER'S NOTEBOOK AND THEN YOU GET READY TO WRITE THIS BECAUSE YOU WILL WANT TO REMEMBER THIS NAME.

FOR THE PARTICULAR QUALITY WHEN YOU ARE A MILE AWAY FROM A MOUNTAIN AND YOU ARE LOOKING AT IT AND YOU CAN'T SEE IT AND THE REASON YOU CAN'T SEE IT AS IT TURNS OUT IF YOU TALK TO THE PHYSICISTS WHO FIGURED IT OUT, IS THAT PARTICLES COME IN DIFFERENT SIZES, SOME OF THEM ARE RELATIVELY BIG, SOME OF THEM ARE JUST MEDIUM AND SOME OF THEM ARE TINY.

THE RELATIVELY BIG AND THE TINY ONES DON'T MATTER BUT THIS PARTICULAR SIZE, WHICH IS CHARACTERIZED BY AUTO EXHAUST AND ALSO COW METHANE AND THOSE ARE A PARTICULAR SIZE AND THAT IS EXACTLY THE SIZE OF THE WAVELENGTH OF SUNLIGHT.

SO YOU WILL BE STANDING THERE AND YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE MOUNTAINS AND IT IS BOUNCING OFF OF THOSE BILLIONS OF, HE SAID IT IS LIKE HAVING A BILLION SUNS IN YOUR EYE IF THE SUN IS BEHIND YOU, THE MINUTE THE SUN GOES DOWN YOU CAN SEE IT, BUT WHILE IT IS THERE AND SO HE SAID IT IS LIKE HAVING A MILLION SUNS.

AND A FRIEND OF MINE SAID, "NO, IT IS LIKE A MILLION MOONS IN YOUR EYES ACTUALLY."

BUT THE RESULT IS THAT EFFECT IS CALLED "AIRLIGHT."

>>LORENE: AIRLIGHT.

A-I-R. >>LAWRENCE: A-I-R L-I-G-H-T.

IT IS A SCIENTIFIC TERM, BUT SUCH A GREAT TERM.

IT IS LIKE A POET'S TERM.

>>LORENE: IT IS WONDERFUL.

>>LAWRENCE: YOU ARE LOST IN THE AIRLIGHT.

BUT ANYWAY THE POINT IS THAT, BUT THEY ALSO HAD AEROSPACE PLASTICS THAT WERE JUST COMING INTO BEING DECLASSIFIED AND THEY ALSO HAD THE SURF CULTURE.

THEY ALSO HAD THE CAR CULTURE WHERE PEOPLE WOULD PUT ON 30 COATS OF RUBY RED YOU KNOW ON THE DASHBOARD.

>>LORENE: CANDY APPLE RED, YEAH.

>>LAWRENCE: AND ALL THAT.

AND THIS CREATED A KIND OF EXTREMELY EXACTING ART, BUT AT THE SAME TIME EXTREMELY AMBIGUOUS.

PART OF THE REASON IT HAD TO BE SO EXACT WAS THEY WERE DOING THINGS THAT IF YOU AND THIS IS TRUE OF HELEN, IF THERE IS THE SLIGHTEST SCRATCH AND THERE IS THE SLIGHTEST LITTLE BLACK MARK, PENCIL MARK OR SOMETHING ON THIS PIECE, IT RUINS THE PIECE BECAUSE YOU HAD TO GET THE FOCUS ON IT.

AND HER WORK IS JUST, FOR EXAMPLE, THE ONE THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT WHICH ALL OF HER WORKS ARE UNTITLED BUT EVERYBODY AT THE MUSEUM CALLS IT "BIG PEACH," BECAUSE IT IS KIND OF LIKE IT IS THIS THING THAT YOU CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT IT IS, YOU CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW BIG IT IS.

YOU CAN'T FIGURE OUT IS IT A GLOBE, IS IT A BRUISE, IS IT AN EYE LOOKING AT YOU, IS IT TWO OR 20 INCHES, IS IT 60 INCHES, WHAT IS IT, YOU JUST CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT, BUT IN FACT IT IS AN EXTREMELY THIN LENS AND IT TAKES HER 18 SEPARATE COATS OF EXTREMELY DANGEROUS URETHANE.

SHE IS 87 YEARS OLD NOW AND SHE DOES IT BY HERSELF, SHE HAS THIS VERY THIN MOLD AND FOR EACH POUR AND THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT COLORS TO GET THAT PEACH AFFECT.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>LAWRENCE: THERE'S AN ORANGE, THERE'S PINK AND SO FORTH.

SHE WILL DO ONE AND THEN SHE WAITS FOR THAT TO DRY AND THEN SHE'LL DO THE NEXT.

>>LORENE: WOW.

>>LAWRENCE: AND SHE ENDS UP THROWING OUT 10 OF THEM FOR EVERY ONE THAT IS FINALLY SUCCESSFUL.

BUT WHEN THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL, THEY ARE AMAZING.

>>LORENE: WELL, THANK YOU.

>>LAWRENCE: THEY ARE BREATHTAKING.

>>LORENE: NOW I UNDERSTAND MORE.

YES.

WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH LAWRENCE WESCHLER AND AS YOU CAN SEE, YOU WRITE ABOUT PEOPLE AND PLACES THAT CATCH FIRE AND THERE IS SO MUCH TO BE EXCITED ABOUT.

SO MY FAVORITE BOOK IS, AS I TOLD YOU, IS MR. WILSON'S CABINET OF WONDER AND IT IS ABOUT, THERE USED TO BE CABINETS OF WONDER WHERE PEOPLE WOULD SAVE ASTONISHING THINGS.

>>LAWRENCE: IT IS THE ORIGIN OF MUSEUMS.

EVERY SELF-RESPECTING DUKE OR SENOR OR LORD WOULD HAVE A CABINET WHICH MEANS ROOM, IN WHICH THEY WOULD JUST COLLECT EVERYTHING THAT WAS WONDROUS AND STRANGE.

SO THEY WOULD COLLECT, ON THE ONE HAND, THE SKULLS OF SIAMESE LAMBS OR THEY WOULD COLLECT PAINTINGS, ALMOST ALL THE PAINTINGS WENT THROUGH THOSE.

A PAINTING BY DURER NEXT TO SOMETHING THAT WAS CLAIMED A WEIRD SHELL NEXT TO A HUMAN HORN.

ALL THESE THINGS WOULD BE IN THE CABINET OF WONDER AND BECOMES MUSEUMS LATER ON.

>>LORENE: IT IS ABOUT THE ACTUAL MUSEUM THAT I HAVE BEEN TO IN A VERY REMOTE PART OF LOS ANGELES CALLED THE "MUSEUM OF JURASSIC TECHNOLOGY" AND YOU HAD WRITTEN "THAT WONDER IS A UNIFYING THEME OF THIS MUSEUM."

AND THE VISITOR TO THIS MUSEUM CONTINUALLY FINDS HIMSELF, SPEAKING OF LIGHT AND SPACE, "SHIMMERING BETWEEN WONDERING AT THE MARVELS OF NATURE AND WONDERING WHETHER ANY OF THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE TRUE."

AND IT IS THAT VERY SHIMMER, MR. WILSON SAYS, "THAT THE CAPACITY FOR SUCH DELICIOUS CONFUSION THAT MAY CONSTITUTE THE MOST BLESSEDLY WONDERFUL THING ABOUT BEING HUMAN!"

>>LAWRENCE: DON'T YOU THINK?

>>LORENE: I THINK SO.

SO MY FAVORITE PART OF WHAT WAS IN THE CABINET OF WONDERS IS THE STINK ANT.

CAN YOU GIVE OUR AUDIENCE JUST A SHORT VERSION?

>>LAWRENCE: WELL WHAT IS FUNNY ABOUT IT IS THAT NOW THE STINK ANT, NOW THIS ANT IS MORE WELL-KNOWN BECAUSE RICHARD ATTENBOROUGH GOT A HOLD OF IT AND IT SHOWS UP IN A DOCUMENTARY AND SO FORTH.

BUT WHEN THIS MUSEUM WAS FIRST CREATED, I HAD NEVER HEARD OF THIS AND I DON'T THINK MOST PEOPLE HAD AND HE HAS A DISPLAY FOR EXAMPLE AND YOU COME UP TO THE DISPLAY, I MEAN TO JUST GIVE YOU AN EARLIER EXAMPLE AT THE MUSEUM.

THERE IS A DISPLAY IN A LITTLE VITRINE AND YOU PICK UP THE TELEPHONE TO LISTEN TO WHAT THE EXPLANATION AND IT HAS THE VOICE OF AUTHORITY, YOU KNOW THE VOICE OF YOU KNOW, WITH THE VOICE OF THE MUSEUMS AND IT SAYS IN THIS CASE THAT THERE WERE TWO.

THERE WAS AN IRIDESCENT PEBBLE AND AN IRIDESCENT BEETLE AND IT EXPLAINS DARWINIAN SELECTION AND HOW THINGS THAT PREDATORS AND PREY AND THE WAYS THAT ANIMALS DISGUISE THEMSELVES OVER TIME AND THROUGH SELECTION THEY GET GOOD AT IT AND THIS PARTICULAR CASE IT IS VERY AUTHORITATIVE, THIS BEETLE HAS LEARNED TO MAKE EXACTLY THE SAME SOUND WHEN THREATENED THAT THIS PEBBLE MAKES AT REST.

YOU GO AND THEN YOU COME TO THIS OTHER VITRINE AND IT HAS LIKE FOLIAGE OF THE JUNGLE AND THEN THERE IS A LITTLE ANT ON ONE OF THEM AND YOU PICK UP THE THING AND IT SAYS THAT IN THE CAMEROONIAN RAIN FOREST OF WEST CENTRAL AFRICA THERE IS A VERY INDUSTRIOUS ANT LIKE NAMED MEGALOPONERA FOETENS OTHERWISE KNOWN AS THE STINK ANT.

AND THEY ARE VERY, VERY, THEY SPEND THEIR LIVES BEING INCREDIBLY INDUSTRIOUS, WHOLE TRIBES OF THEM ON THE FLOOR OF THE RAIN FOREST BUT EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE ONE OF THEM WILL INHALE A SPORE THAT IS RAINING DOWN FROM THE RAIN FOREST ABOVE.

AND IF YOU HAPPEN TO BE AT ANT EYE LEVEL SAYS THIS VOICE YOU WOULD SEE A LOOK OF STUPEFACTION COME OVER THE FACE OF THE ANT, AS WELL IT MIGHT BECAUSE THE SPORE HAS BECOME EMBEDDED IN ITS BRAIN AND BEGINS TO FOMENT A WHOLE BUNCH OF STRANGE BEHAVIOR.

FOR INSTANCE, IT SUDDENLY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE INDUSTRIOUSNESS ANYMORE AND IT STAGGERS OFF TO THE SIDE AND EVENTUALLY STARTS CLIMBING THE TENDRILS AND EVENTUALLY GETS TO A CERTAIN HEIGHT AND WHEN IT DOES ITS MANDIBLES LOCK ON TO THE VINE AND IT WAITS TO DIE.

BECAUSE, AS A MATTER OF FACT, THE FUNGUS IS GOING ALL THROUGH ITS BRAIN AND ITS BODY AND EVENTUALLY A HORN ERUPTS FROM OUT OF THE FOREHEAD OF THE BODY, HEAVY LADEN WITH SPORES AND NOW RAIN DOWN IN THE RAIN FOREST FOR OTHER UNSUSPECTING ANTS TO INHALE.

AND I ONCE ASKED DAVID AT THE TIME, THIS WAS 30 YEARS AGO, AND I SAID, YOU KNOW, WHAT, WHERE DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THIS?

HE SAID, OH YEAH THERE WAS SOME SPECIAL I HEARD ABOUT IT.

AND I SAID, WHERE WERE YOU AND HE SAID, I DON'T WHERE IT WAS, BUT I RELATE TO IT, HE SAID.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>LAWRENCE: AND IN HIS CASE, HE HAD BEEN A VERY INDUSTRIOUS CREATOR OF MINIATURES FOR HOLLYWOOD AND HE JUST GAVE IT ALL UP ONE DAY BECAUSE A SPORE ENTERED HIS HEAD, WHICH WAS TO FOUND THE MUSEUM OF JURASSIC TECHNOLOGY WHATEVER THAT WAS GOING TO BE.

>>LORENE: BUT SO AS YOU SAID THIS SHIMMERING, THE WONDER THAT SUCH A STORY, WHAT A NARRATIVE THAT IS.

>>LAWRENCE: WELL, BUT IT ALSO APPLIES IN MY POLITICAL WORK TO SOLIDARITY IN POLAND, WHICH I COVERED FOR THE NEW YORKER .

WHY ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN AFRAID OF THE TOTALITARIAN REGIME AND THEN SUDDENLY THEY WEREN'T AFRAID.

AND HISTORY BEGAN HAPPENING AND THEY BEGAN WHAT THEY CALL, THEY BEGAN EXPRESSING WHAT THEY SAID WAS THE SUBJECTIVITY OF THE POLISH NATION WHICH IS VERY FUNNY, BOTH MARXIST AND CATHOLIC FORMULATION, AND BY WHICH THEY MEANT THE CAPACITY TO START ACTING AS THE SUBJECT OF HISTORY INSTEAD OF THE OBJECT OF OTHER PEOPLE'S HISTORIES.

SO IT IS AT THAT SAME MOMENT THEY JUST SUDDENLY, WHY THEN, HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN, AND BY THE WAY, REPRESSION IN THAT CONTEXT BECAUSE I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT TORTURE IN LATIN AMERICA, REPRESSION IS TRYING TO TAKE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTING LIKE SUBJECTS AND TURN THEM BACK INTO OBJECTS SO THEY CAN JUST PUT ON THE WALL.

AND RESISTANCE IS A REFUSAL TO HAVE THAT HAPPEN.

SO ALL OF THAT IS VERY MUCH RELATED ON THE COMIC SIDE TO THESE CULTURAL THINGS THAT PEOPLE WHO START, I DID ANOTHER BOOK ABOUT A GUY NAMED BOGGS, WHO WAS AN ARTIST WHO DREW MONEY AND SPENT HIS DRAWINGS AND JUST BECAME THIS COMPLETE CRAZY STORY ABOUT THAT.

AND YOU END UP ALTOGETHER SOMEWHERE DIFFERENT THAN YOU THOUGHT YOU WOULD WHEN YOU BEGAN THE DAY.

AND BY THE WAY, THAT COMES BACK TO HELEN, I PROMISE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LISTENING TO THE SHOW, GO TO THE SITE SANTA FE RIGHT NOW.

YOU WILL LEAVE THAT PLACE ALTOGETHER DIFFERENT THEN YOU ENTERED.

>>LORENE: I WAS DIFFERENT.

I WAS CONFUSED, I WAS OPEN.

IT WAS BEAUTIFUL, TOO, THAT YOU KNOW.

AND I AM A MIND THAT LIKES TO FIGURE THINGS OUT.

WHAT IS THAT WORD YOU WERE MENTIONING IN THE RADIO BROADCAST, THAT MAN'S DESIRE TO MAKE PATTERNS WHERE THEY DON'T EXIST.

>>LAWRENCE: WELL THAT'S, YEAH.

APOPTOSIS, NO THAT'S NOT APOPTOSIS, IT'S APOPHENIA.

>>LORENE: APOPHENIA.

>>LAWRENCE: THAT'S IN EVERYTHING THAT RISES, WHICH IS A BOOK ABOUT THINGS THAT LOOK ALIKE, WEIRDLY, STRANGELY LOOK ALIKE AND WHAT IS GOING ON AND THERE IS ALL KINDS OF CATEGORIES OF THINGS THAT CAN BE GOING ON BUT ONE OF THEM IS APOPHENIA WHICH IS THE TENDENCY OF HUMAN BEINGS TO SEE PATTERNS WHERE THERE ARE NO PATTERNS AND IT IS AN OVERWHELMING TENDENCY.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S NICE ABOUT HELEN AND IS ALSO NICE ABOUT ROBERT IRWIN IS THAT THEY CREATE THIS WAR BETWEEN THE EYE AND THE MIND.

THEY TAKE YOU RIGHT TO THE EDGE WHERE YOU ARE SEEING SOMETHING YOU CAN'T BE SEEING AND YOUR MIND IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IT IS AND YOUR EYES ARE TELLING NO IT IS NOT THAT.

AND THERE IS THIS INCREDIBLE DESIRE TO FIGURE IT OUT, BUT WHAT IS MORE WONDERFUL IS THE SURRENDER TO NOT FIGURING IT OUT.

>>LORENE: YES, EXACTLY.

I HAD PLANNED TO ASK YOU, THERE ARE SOME THINGS IN THIS THAT HAVE CHANGED ME VERY MUCH.

EVERYTHING THAT RISES: A BOOK OF CONVERGENCES, HAVING TO DO WITH A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE DEATH OF CHE GUEVARA AND A REMBRANDT PAINTING, "THE ANATOMY LESSON."

BECAUSE OF YOUR VOICE AND BECAUSE WE ARE ALMOST OUT OF TIME, I AM GOING INSTEAD TO ASK YOU TO TELL US ABOUT YOUR TWO NEW BOOKS.

BUT PROMISE ME WHEN YOU COME BACK, WE CAN SHOW THESE PICTURES, BECAUSE IT HAS TRAINED ME TO LOOK FOR THOSE CONVERGENCES.

>>LAWRENCE: I AM PREPARING TO HAVE A SEQUEL OF THE BOOK.

>>LORENE: OH, I AM SO GLAD.

WE WILL DO THAT.

>>LAWRENCE: WHICH IS GOING TO BE CALLED, THE SEQUEL TO EVERYTHING THAT RISES IS CALLED ALL THAT IS SOLID.

>>LORENE: AH.

>>LAWRENCE: EVERYTHING THAT RISES MUST CONVERGE .

>>LORENE: YES THAT IS WHAT FLANNERY O'CONNOR SAID.

>>LAWRENCE: AND "ALL THAT IS SOLID MELTS INTO AIR," THAT IS WHAT KARL MARX SAID.

>>LORENE: OKAY.

SO OLIVER SACKS, YOU ACTUALLY KNEW HIM QUITE WELL, AN EXTRAORDINARY NEUROLOGIST.

PEOPLE KNOW HIM MOSTLY FOR THE NAME OF HIS BOOK, THE MAN WHO MISTOOK HIS WIFE FOR A HAT .

BUT YOU HAVE DONE A BIOGRAPHICAL MEMOIR CALLED, AND HOW ARE YOU, DR. SACKS?

AND TELL ME WHY IT WAS SO IMPORTANT TO HAVE THAT SIMPLE DIAGNOSTIC QUESTION.

>>LAWRENCE: SO WHAT HAPPENED IS, I MEAN I KNEW OLIVER FOR 35 YEARS, WE WERE QUITE GOOD FRIENDS.

WHEN I FIRST MET HIM HE WAS COMPLETELY UNKNOWN AND HE WAS IMPOSSIBLY FUMBLING AND SHY AND HOPELESSLY NEUROTIC, HE WAS ALWAYS HOPELESSLY NEUROTIC.

HE WAS IN THREE OR FOUR DAY A WEEK PSYCHOANALYSIS FOR 50 YEARS.

TOWARD THE END OF HIS LIFE HE SAID, I THINK WE ARE GETTING SOMEWHERE.

BUT HE HAD ALL KINDS OF VERY COMPLICATED THINGS WHICH IN TURN AND HE WAS VERY MUCH A RECLUSE WHEN I WAS FIRST GETTING TO KNOW HIM, WHICH MADE HIM VERY OPEN TO PEOPLE WITH NEUROLOGICAL PROBLEMS AT THE EXTREMITY OF EXPERIENCE.

PEOPLE WITH TOURETTE'S, PEOPLE, THE CHARACTERS IN HIS BOOK, AWAKENINGS , WHICH GOT MADE INTO THAT GREAT MOVIE WITH ROBERT DE NIRO AND ROBIN WILLIAMS.

AND HE USED TO SAY AND I WOULD GO WITH HIM, HE WOULD NOT WORK AT BIG HOSPITALS, HE LIKED TO WORK IN THE POORHOUSES WHERE HE SAID ALL THE TREASURES WERE.

AND HE HAD ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD TO SIT DOWN AND TALK TO PEOPLE AND SO FORTH.

WHEREAS NEUROLOGY TODAY YOU HAVE TEN MINUTES TO GIVE TO THAT PERSON AND YOU HEAR THE NEXT PERSON "BUP BUP BUP BUP."

BUT HE WOULD SAY AS WE DROVE FROM ONE POORHOUSE TO ANOTHER, HE WOULD SAY THAT HE WAS A CLINICAL ONTOLOGIST.

YOU KNOW, ETHICS IS THE PHILOSOPHY OF RIGHT BEHAVIOR AESTHETICS IS THE PHILOSOPHY OF BEAUTY, YOU KNOW.

EPISTEMOLOGY IS THE PHILOSOPHY OF KNOWLEDGE AND BELIEF, ONTOLOGY IS THE PHILOSOPHY OF BEING, OF WHAT IT IS TO BE, WHAT BEING IS.

IT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL PHILOSOPHY AND HE SAID HE WAS A CLINICAL ONTOLOGIST BY WHICH HE MEANT THAT THE PATIENTS HE SPENT TIME WITH, THE DIAGNOSTIC QUESTION WAS, "HOW ARE YOU, WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE YOU, HOW IS IT TO BE YOU?"

AND SO THE TITLE OF MY BOOK TURNS IT ON HIM AND SAYS, " HOW ARE YOU, DR. SACKS?

AND HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THERE ARE SO MANY STRANGE AND MARVELOUS AND ANNOYING AND CRAZY MAKING AND CHARMING AND SO FORTH AS OLIVER," AND SO THAT IS AFTER HE DIED.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS VERY INTERESTING... >>LORENE: IN THE MINUTE THAT WE DO HAVE LEFT, I WOULD LIKE YOU TO ADDRESS OUR AUDIENCE ABOUT THE WONDER THAT SURROUNDS US AND NOT TO MISS IT.

>>LAWRENCE: WELL, IT'S SO HARD.

I MEAN THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES IT POSSIBLE TO GET THROUGH THE DAY IS A WHOLE SET OF HABITUAL ORDER.

IF YOU ARE BEING BOMBARDED BY ALL THE AMAZEMENT THAT IS IT AT YOUR FINGERTIPS ALL THE TIME YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET ANYTHING DONE.

>>LORENE: I WOULD BE LATE.

>>LAWRENCE: BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE GET SO HABITUATED TO THINGS.

FOR STARTERS I WILL JUST SAY, TOMORROW WHEN YOU WAKE UP IN THE MORNING, DON'T HOP OUT OF BED, LOOK AT THE CEILING AND LOOK AT HOW WEIRD THE LIGHT EFFECTS ARE.

IF THERE HAPPENS TO BE A RED CAR PARKED OUTSIDE YOU WILL NOTICE THERE IS A LITTLE PINK THING GOING ON OVER THERE IN THE CORNER.

JUST LOOK AT ALL THAT AND FORGET WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT IT, IT IS THAT, THAT YOU ARE LOOKING.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>LAWRENCE: AND THAT YOU HAVE THIS LITTLE, I WILL TELL YOU ONE THING VERY QUICKLY, THAT WALTER MARCH SHOWED ME.

THIS IS THE LAST THING I WILL DO.

ON A PER VOLUME BASIS, WHICH EMITS THE MOST ENERGY, THE SUN OR THE BRAIN?

IF YOU WERE TO REACH INTO THE SUN AND TAKE OUT A BRAIN SIZE AMOUNT OF SUN ON AN AVERAGE BASIS AND A BRAIN.

IT TURNS OUT THAT IF YOU DO THE CALCULATION, THE HUMAN BRAIN EMITS 50,000 TIMES MORE ENERGY THAN THE SUN.

>>LORENE: WELL, BECAUSE OF YOU, MY BRAIN IT MULTIPLIED THAT EMISSION OF ENERGY AND DELIGHT.

OUR GUEST TODAY, I AM SORRY THAT WE ARE OUT OF TIME.

>>LAWRENCE: OH, DON'T WORRY.

>>LORENE: OUR GUEST TODAY IS LAWRENCE WESCHLER AND I AM JUST SO GRATEFUL TO YOU, I HOPE THAT YOU COME BACK.

I WANT TO REMIND PEOPLE TO CERTAINLY START READING HIM AND GET DR. WILSON'S CABINET OF WONDER.

THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO BE WITH US TODAY.

>>LAWRENCE: THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: AND I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU OUR AUDIENCE FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM