>>> NOW, AS THE U.S. NOVEMBER ELECTION DRAWS CLOSER, REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ARE TREADING A FINE LINE BETWEEN APPEALING TO THEIR LOYAL BASE AND UNDECIDED VOTERS.

FOR DEMOCRATS, BLACK VOTERS HAVE HISTORICALLY BEEN A BASTION OF SUPPORT, BUT RECENT DATA WARNS AGAINST TAKING THEM FOR GRANTED.

A POLL SHOWED ABOUT HALF WOULD REPLACE BOTH CANDIDATES, HINTING AT THEIR GROWING DISAFFECTION WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS WITH LEAH RIGUEUR FOR MORE.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

PROFESSOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, THERE HAVE BEEN A SLEW OF HEADLINES ABOUT, YOU KNOW, AFRICAN AMERICAN VOTERS, BLACK VOTERS, AND THEIR SORT OF AMBIVALENT FEELINGS ABOUT THE CANDIDATES.

SO, WHY DON'T WE JUST -- BEFORE WE DIG INTO THE DATA, WHY DON'T WE JUST KIND OF JUST DRILL DOWN AND SAY, WHAT ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT THEMES TO BE LOOKING AT RIGHT NOW, AND WHAT'S JUST NOISE?

>> SO, I THINK SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT ARE THE LEVELS OF DISSATISFACTION WITH THE AMERICAN POLITICAL PROCESS.

AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE BEEN VERY VOCAL ABOUT HOW UNHAPPY THEY ARE WITH THE AMERICAN TWO-PARTY SYSTEM.

AND A LOT OF IT, I THINK, HAS TO DO WITH, YOU KNOW, OVERALL TRENDS IN THE LARGER COUNTRY, AND IN THAT RESPECT, AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE JUST LIKE THEIR WHITE COUNTERPARTS, THEIR ASIAN COUNTERPARTS, OR THEIR LATINO COUNTERPARTS.

THEY DEEPLY CARE ABOUT THE ECONOMY.

THEY CARE ABOUT SOCIAL MOBILITY, THEY CARE ABOUT THEIR COMMUNITIES.

AND THEY HAVE SEEN THAT, YOU KNOW, THE POLICIES THAT EITHER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS TOUTED, OR IN SOME CASES, THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS TOUTED, THAT NONE OF THOSE HAVE ACTUALLY AFFECTED THEIR LIVED EXPERIENCE.

SO, WHEN YOU SEE AFRICAN AMERICANS, AND WHEN WE INTERVIEW AFRICAN AMERICANS OR POLL THEM ACROSS A WIDE FIELD OF DATA, WE TEND TO SEE OVERWHELMINGLY THAT THEY ARE DEEPLY UNHAPPY WITH THEIR POSITION AND THEIR LIVED EXPERIENCE WITHIN THE UNITED STATES.

>> IS THIS MORE OF A -- AN ISSUE FOR DEMOCRATS WRIT LARGE THAN IT IS FOR REPUBLICANS?

BECAUSE WE KEEP SEEING HOW THERE ARE REPUBLICANS WHO, YOU KNOW, AREN'T IN LOVE WITH THEIR CHOICE, EITHER.

I GUESS WHAT I'M ASKING YOU, ARE AFRICAN AMERICAN VOTERS DISSATISFIED BECAUSE OF THEIR LIVED EXPERIENCE AS BLACK PEOPLE, OR ARE THEY DISSATISFIED BECAUSE DEMOCRATS OVERALL ARE SATISFIED AND BECAUSE THEY TEND TO BE DEMOCRATS?

>> SO, IT'S ALL OF THE ABOVE.

I WILL TELL YOU THIS IS A LARGER PROBLEM FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAN IT IS FOR THE REPUBLIC PARTY.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE SEEN OVER THE LAST SEVERAL PRESIDENTIAL CYCLES IS THAT REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES CAN WIN WITHOUT A MAJORITY OR EVEN A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACK VOTE.

BUT WE ALSO KNOW THAT DEMOCRATS CAN WIN WITH THE HELP OF THIS VERY LARGE AND LOYAL BLACK BASE OF VOTERS.

AND SO, THE REAL PROBLEM IS THE ENTHUSIASM PROBLEM.

DEMOCRATS NEED BLACK VOTERS IN ORDER TO WIN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.

REPUBLICANS ONLY NEED A SMALL SLIVER OF BLACK VOTERS IN ORDER TO WIN ELECTIONS.

AND THIS IS WHY I SAY THAT, IN MANY WAYS, IT'S AN UPHILL BATTLE FOR DEMOCRATS IN THIS RESPECT.

REPUBLICANS ONLY NEED A LOW TURNOUT FROM BLACK VOTERS IN ORDER TO WIN ELECTIONS, AS OF THE LAST REALLY 50 SOME ODD YEARS.

AND SO, PART OF WHAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE FACING IS, WE HAVE THIS INCREDIBLY LOYAL BASE, A BLOC OF VOTERS FOR WHOM NO OTHER DEMOGRAPHIC IN THE UNITED STATES FUNCTIONS THIS WAY.

BUT BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN SO LOYAL AND THEY VOTE AS A BLOC IN OVERWHELMING NUMBERS FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND HAVE DONE SO SINCE REALLY 1964, WE BEGIN TO SEE THAT DEMOCRATS ARE TAKING BLACK VOTERS FOR GRANTED, OR TREATED IN VERY SUPERFICIAL WAYS.

BLACK VOTERS HAVE EXPRESSED OVER THE YEARS BOTH ANGER, DISENCHANTMENT, DISILLUSIONMENT, WITH THE FEELING THAT THEY HAVEN'T BEING APPRECIATED IN THE WAY THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY APPRECIATES ITS WHITE BASE.

SO, IT IS A QUESTION OF LOYALTY, BUT IT'S ALSO A QUESTION OF, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR US LATELY?

>> ACCORDING TO A SURVEY FROM GEN FORWARD AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO, THIS SURVEY FOUND THAT 17% OF BLACK VOTERS WOULD VOTE FOR DONALD TRUMP IF THE ELECTIONS WERE HELD TODAY.

TODAY BEING, YOU KNOW, WHEN THE POLL WAS TAKEN.

FIRST OF ALL, DO YOU THINK THAT'S A VALID NUMBER, AND SECONDLY, DO YOU THINK OF IT?

>> I THINK THE NUMBER IS PROBABLY OFF A LITTLE BIT.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE SEE IS THE NUMBER THAT PEOPLE GIVE IN THESE KIND OF POLLING DATA TENDS TO BE OFFSET BY AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHEN PEOPLE GO INTO THE BALLOT BOX, THEY EITHER VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE OR THEY DON'T VOTE AT ALL.

SO, IT MANIFESTS ITSELF AS A NONVOTE AT THE TOP OF THE TICKET.

BUT I ALSO WANT TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT ANYTHING WITHIN THE RANGE OF ROUGHLY 18% IS ACTUALLY WITHIN THE NORM OF THE LAST 50 SOME ODD YEARS.

WE TEND NOT TO SEE IT AS THE NORM, BECAUSE OF THE OBAMA ERA.

THE OBAMA ERA, THOSE NUMBERS ARE JUST ASTRONOMICAL, BECAUSE OF THE OVERWHELMING LEVEL OF BLACK SUPPORT FOR THE FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT.

BUT WHAT WE SEE IN 2016 IS A RETURN TO THE AVERAGE.

SO, I'D LIKE TO SAY THAT WHEN WE SEE THE TRUMP NUMBERS, WHETHER THEY WERE IN 2016, 2020, OR 2024, WE ARE SEEING A RETURN TO HOME.

THAT ESSENTIALLY BLACK PEOPLE WHO VOTE FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ARE COMING HOME.

THE OTHER THING THAT I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND IS THAT WHEN BLACK PEOPLE PERCEIVE VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES, REALLY ONE OF THREE THINGS HAPPENS.

EITHER THEY VOTE FOR A THIRD PARTY CANDIDATE, THEY DON'T VOTE ALTOGETHER, OR IN VERY SMALL NUMBERS, WITHIN THE MEAN OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING WITH THE GEN FORWARD, I THINK, POMMING DATA, THEY WILL VOTE FOR AND SUPPORT REPUBLICANS.

SO, I THINK THAT TELLS US SOMETHING ABOUT HOW BLACK VOTERS PERCEIVE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

AT LEAST 17% TO 20%.

WE ALSO KNOW THAT YOUNGER BLACK VOTERS ARE INCREASINGLY EXPRESSING DISSATISFACTION WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

MANY OF THEM HAVE INDICATED THEY VIEW PRESIDENT BIDEN AND THE ADMINISTRATION, THEY VIEW IT AS EITHER INDIFFERENT OR OUTWARDLY HOSTILE -- >> SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

WHY?

A LOT OF THE DEMOCRATIC STRATEGISTS WILL EXPRESS SURPRISE AND DISMAY, THEY'RE LIKE, WELL, WHAT ABOUT KAMALA HARRIS, THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN/SOUTH ASIAN PERSON TO HOLD THAT SEAT, WHAT ABOUT ALL THE EFFORTS THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS MADE ON COLLEGE LOANS, TO CANCEL THAT DEBT, OR -- YOU KNOW, THEY LOOK AT THINGS LIKE THAT, AND THEY GO, WHAT'S THE STORY?

SO, YOU -- WHAT IS THAT?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS -- THE PUSH BACKS I ALWAYS GET, INCLUDING FROM DEMOCRATIC STRATEGISTS OR EVEN THE GENERAL PUBLIC IS, WHY ARE WE SO CONCERNED?

THE NUMBER IS STILL, LIKE, 80% OF AFRICAN AMERICANS OR BLACK VOTERS SUPPORT DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES.

AND YES, THAT MAY BE TRUE, BUT IT'S ALSO TRUE THAT THERE IS A SLOW TRICKLE OF BLACK VOTERS WHO ARE EXPRESSING DISSATISFACTION AND ALSO ARTICULATING A KIND OF ARGUMENT ABOUT THE FAILURES OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

AND SO, PART OF WHAT I WOULD PUT FORWARD IS THAT WE'RE NOT NECESSARILY SEEING A ROBUST EFFORT ON THE PART OF REPUBLICANS.

THEY'RE NOT WINNING BLACK VOTERS OVER BECAUSE OF THEIR POLICIES OR PROCEDURES OR PROGRAMS.

BUT INSTEAD, BECAUSE OF THE FAILURES OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO CONNECT ORGANICALLY AND AUTHENTICALLY TO A VERY, I THINK, TENSE SECTION, CROSS SECTION, OF BLACK VOTERS.

AND IN THAT CASE, ONE OF THE -- ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE KNOW IS THAT THERE IS A WAY IN WHICH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS COMPLETELY MISSED AN OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY GET DOWN ORGANICALLY AND UNDERSTAND THE NEEDS, THE DESIRES, AND THE FRUSTRATIONS OF BLACK VOTERS IN MANY WAYS.

>> WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

THE OBAMA APPROACH, I WOULD MAYBE -- YOU COULD ARGUE THE OBAMA/BIDEN APPROACH, HAS BEEN TO ACT ON POLICY WITHOUT LABELLING IT AS BEING FOR THE BENEFIT OF THESE GROUPS, RIGHT?

THEIR APPROACH HAS BEEN, WE'RE GOING TO WORK ON POLICY, AND WE'RE GOING TO PRESENT THIS POLICY AS BENEFICIAL TO THE COUNTRY AT LARGE, AND, YOU KNOW, READ BETWEEN THE LINES, YOU KNOW, IF YOU CANCEL STUDENT DEBT, WHO HAS THE MOST STUDENT DEBT?

IT'S CERTAIN GROUPS.

IF YOU MAKE HEALTH CARE MORE WIDELY AVAILABLE, READ BETWEEN THE LINES, WHO DOES IT BENEFIT?

IS IT REALLY THAT THE MESSAGING NEEDS TO BE, THIS IS FOR YOU?

OR ARE THERE OTHER POLICIES THAT THE DEMOCRATS AREN'T PURSUING THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS IDENTIFY AND SAY, YOU'RE FAILING US?

>> ALL OF THE ABOVE.

AND I WOULD THINK BACK TO THE 2020 DEMOCRATIC PRIMARIES, WHERE THERE WAS A REAL CONVERSATION, AN ACTUAL REAL CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE CANDIDATES, THE FRONT-RUNNER CANDIDATES, BOTH IN THE 2020 AND 2016 PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARIES, ABOUT WHAT WOULD IT LOOK LIKE TO HAVE POLICIES THAT ARE AIMED SPECIFICALLY AT AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITIES?

AND, YOU KNOW, IN 2020, PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID, I WILL APPOINT A BLACK WOMAN TO THE SUPREME COURT.

AND HE DID IT.

AND IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL THINGS THAT HE COULD DO, EVEN THOUGH THE NAMING OF A BLACK WOMAN AND SAYING, I WANT TO PUT A BLACK WOMAN ON THE SUPREME COURT, IS SOMETHING THAT MAY HAVE ALIENATED, YOU KNOW, RACIST PEOPLE THAT MAYBE THE DEMOCRATS NEEDED TO WIN.

BUT YET, IT PAID OFF HEAVILY.

AND IT WAS REWARDING, ESSENTIALLY, THE MOST LOYAL CONSTITUENCY OF HIS BASE.

>> WHAT ELSE SHOULD THE ADMINISTRATION BE DOING THAT THEY'RE NOT?

>> VOTING RIGHTS.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM.

AND SOME KIND OF LARGE ECONOMIC INCENTIVE.

AND I DON'T WANT TO TAKE AWAY FROM THE WAYS IN WHICH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS ACTUALLY DONE THOSE THINGS THROUGH COLOR BLIND POLICY.

THEY HAVE DONE THAT.

THE MESSAGING AROUND IT, THOUGH, IS DEEPLY IMPORTANT.

PARTICULARLY IN THE WAY THAT YOU ARE CONVEYING TO AUDIENCES WHO FEEL LEFT BEHIND.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DID VERY WELL IS THAT THEY SPOKE EXPLICITLY TO THEIR CORE BASE.

THE PEOPLE THAT THEY NEEDED TO WIN.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE, I THINK, WERE TAKEN ABACK BY THAT, BUT ACTUALLY, IF YOU LOOK AT IT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS, IT WAS AN IMPORTANT STRATEGY.

YOU NEED PEOPLE ENTHUSIASTIC AROUND THESE THINGS.

BUT YOU ALSO NEED POLICY WINS.

VERY BIG POLICY WINS.

AND SO, I THINK FOR MANY AUDIENCES, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN POINT AND SAY, WELL, I'M BEING GRID LOCKED AND ALL THOSE THINGS ARE TRUE, I'M BEING BLOCKED OUT OF CONGRESS, IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO DO THESE THINGS.

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT AUDIENCES SEE.

THEY SEE THEMSELVES BEING LEFT BEHIND.

>> YOU KNOW, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, POLICY, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT SORT OF MESSAGING, BUT DO YOU THINK THERE ARE OTHER FACTORS, AS WELL, BEHIND THE DISAFFECTION OF BLACK VOTERS?

>> THE NUMBER ONE IS POLICY AND LIVED EXPERIENCE.

BUT SOMETHING ELSE THAT WE'VE SEEN REALLY JUST EXPLODE OVER THE LAST EIGHT YEARS IS THAT THERE'S A CONCERTED CYBER EFFORT, INTERNATIONAL CYBER EFFORT, THAT IS EXPLICITLY AIMED AT BLACK VOTERS.

AND BLACK PEOPLE, MORE GENERALLY.

IT POPS UP ACROSS THESE VARIOUS KIND OF TECHNOLOGICAL PLATFORMS, INCLUDING INSTAGRAM, FACEBOOK, TWITTER, NOW KNOWN AS X, TIKTOK.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S REMARKABLE ABOUT THESE, I THINK, CONCERTED EFFORTS, IS THAT THEY ARE BUILT ON KERNELS OF TRUTH AND FRUSTRATION THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS AND BLACK VOTERS HAVE WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

AND THEN, OF COURSE, WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT THESE THINGS ARE BLOWN UP.

INTO MISINFORMATION, INTO PEOPLE IN DIGITAL BLACK FACE, RIGHT?

THESE KIND OF CONVERSATIONS THAT TAKE ON A LIFE OF THEIR OWN.

AND THEN, THE OTHER THING THAT WE KNOW IS THAT IT IS VERY HARD, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE, TO TRACK HOW THESE THINGS ARE SHOWING UP.

>> I KNOW DURING THE LAST ELECTION, THERE WERE A COUPLE OF ACCOUNTS THAT WERE VERY MUCH A PRODUCT OF RUSSIAN TROLL FARMS WHO WERE BASICALLY STUDYING SORT OF POINTS OF DIVISION IN THE AMERICAN SOCIETY, AND ACTIVELY KIND OF POKING AT THEM.

>> EXACTLY.

AND SO, I THINK THE BEST KIND OF -- THE BEST KIND OF MISINFORMATION OR DISINFORMATION IS THE KIND THAT STARTS FROM A KERNEL OF TRUTH.

BECAUSE IT MAKES IT FAR MORE BELIEVABLE, OR A KERNEL OF FRUSTRATION.

SO, IF YOU KNOW THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, BLACK MEN FEEL VERY STRONGLY ABOUT THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND ABOUT THE DISPROPROEGS GNAT WAY IN WHICH THE AMERICAN CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM HAS TREATED BLACK PEOPLE, AND YOU KNOW THAT THERE'S SOME WAY IN WHICH JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN WAS INVOLVED IN THE PASSAGE OF, SAY, THE CRIME BILL IN THE 1990s, OR THINGS OF THAT NATURE, IT IS VERY EASY TO TAKE THAT AND TO BLOW IT UP INTO SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

AND TO KEEP HITTING PEOPLE AND HAMMERING PEOPLE ON THIS ISSUE.

>> YOU MENTIONED BLACK MEN.

IS THERE A WAY IN WHICH THE DISAFFECTION OR -- LET'S JUST SAY ATTITUDES WRIT LARGE, ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, AMONG BLACK VOTERS, DOES IT CUT DIFFERENTLY DEPENDING ON WHO YOU ARE?

I GUESS WHAT I'M WONDERING, DOES THIS CUT DIFFERENTLY BASED ON GENDER?

>> THERE IS ABSOLUTELY A GENDER COMPONENT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I WANT TO CLARIFY THIS FIRST BY SUGGESTING, THE OVERWHELMING, YOU KNOW, MAJORITY OF BLACK VOTERS MALE OR FEMALE SUPPORT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND SUPPORT DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES.

WITH THAT BEING SAID, BLACK PEOPLE THAT VOTE REPUBLICAN IN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS, THEY TEND TO BE OVERWHELMINGLY BLACK MEN.

AND THERE ARE A COUPLE OF REASONS FOR THIS.

I THINK ONE OF THEM IS THIS IDEA OF AN INDIVIDUAL AND KIND OF FRUSTRATION, RIGHT, THE SENSE OF AN INDIVIDUALISM AND FRUSTRATION WITH THESE LARGER POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS.

SO, THERE IS, YOU KNOW, TAKE THE GEORGE FLOYD MOMENT.

MANY BLACK MEN LOOKED AT THAT AND SAID, THIS IS A FAILURE OF AMERICAN POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS.

BUT IT'S NOT JUST A FAILURE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THAT'S NOT HOW BLACK MEN VIEWED THAT.

THEY VIEWED IT AS OVERALL, AN OVERARCHING FRUSTRATION WITH THE AMERICAN SYSTEM.

POLICING AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

AND THAT YOU SEE IT AS A BIPARTISAN FAILURE.

BUT WHAT THAT ALLOWS THEM TO DO, GIVEN THAT THEIR SENSE OF INDIVIDUALISM IS MUCH HIGHER THAN BLACK WOMEN, IS TO THINK, HOW CAN I THEN VOTE IN A WAY THAT BEST BENEFITS MYSELF?

BLACK WOMEN HAVE A MUCH, MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TIME DIVORCING THEMSELVES FROM THIS IDEA OF THE COLLECTIVE BEST INTEREST OF THE RACE.

AND THAT'S WHERE WE REALLY BEGIN TO SEE THESE DIFFERENCES.

IT'S ALSO TRUE THAT THERE IS A CERTAIN CROSS SECTION WITHIN THE BLACK MALE POPULATION THAT IS ATTRACTED, I THINK, TO DONALD TRUMP'S SENSE OF ESSENTIALLY MA CHEESE MOW AND AUTHORITARIANISM.

THEY LIKE THAT HE IS ESSENTIALLY A STRONG MAN.

HE IS SEEN AS STRONG.

THEY DON'T SEE HIM AS WEAK.

SO, I THINK THERE'S SIGNIFICANT GENDER DIFFERENCES THAT ACTUALLY END UP PLAYING OUT IN REALLY IMPORTANT POLITICAL WAYS.

>> FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, CANDIDATE TRUMP, HAS SAID THAT HE'S NOT GOING TO ANNOUNCE HIS VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE UNTIL THE CONVENTION.

THERE SEEM TO BE TWO AFRICAN AMERICAN MEN IN THE RUNNING FOR THAT SLOT.

TIM SCOTT AND BYRON DONALDS.

DO YOU THINK THAT MATTERS?

>> IT MATTERS, BUT NOT FOR BLACK AUDIENCES.

IT MATTERS FOR WHITE AUDIENCES.

>> INTERESTING.

>> AND LET ME EXPLAIN.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE SEE OVER AND OVER WITH BLACK AUDIENCES IS THAT THERE IS A PARTICULAR KIND OF CANDIDATE, BLACK CANDIDATE, THAT HAS ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF APPEAL.

THINK BARACK OBAMA, RIGHT?

THEY HAVE TO BE AUTHENTICALLY AND ORGANICALLY CONNECTED TO BLACK COMMUNITIES.

THEY HAVE TO SEEM INVESTED IN ESSENTIALLY THE UPLIFT, OR THE BETTERMENT OF BLACK COMMUNITIES.

NEITHER ONE, AND I WOULD PARTICULARLY POINT TO THE CONGRESSMAN'S REMARKS THE OTHER DAY, WHERE HE ROE MANTIZED JIM CROW.

I WOULD POINT TO THE FACT THAT BOTH OF THEM HAVE WHITE SPOUSES.

THAT MATTERS TO BLACK VOTERS.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE KNOW, FROM STUDIES ABOUT BLACK REPUBLICANS AND BLACK AUDIENCES, IS THAT BLACK AUDIENCES ACTUALLY TREAT BLACK REPUBLICANS MORE HARSHLY THAN THEY DO WHITE REPUBLICANS THAT HOLD THE EXACT SAME VIEWS.

WHY?

BECAUSE THEY VIEW THOSE BLACK REPUBLICANS AS TRAITORS, AS BETRAYING THE BEST INTEREST OF THE BLACK COMMUNITIES.

NOW, WHERE IT MATTERS, THOUGH, IS FOR WHITE AUDIENCES.

PARTICULARLY WHITE AUDIENCES THAT ARE DEEPLY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH DONALD TRUMP'S BRAND OF BIGOTRY, XENOPHOBIA, AND RACISM.

TIM SCOTT IS A REASSURANCE, WELL, IF TIM SCOTT SUPPORTS DONALD TRUMP, THEN HE CAN'T BE THAT BAD, CORRECT?

IT PROVIDES A KIND OF SHIELD FOR ACCUSATIONS OF RACISM, OF BIGOTRY AND XENOPHOBIA.

AND I DO THINK POLITICALLY, FROM A POLITICAL CALCULATION POINT OF VIEW, THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

>> BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, OR, THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN, IS -- HAS SEEMED TO HAVE REALLY STEPPED UP ITS OUTREACH, I MEAN, THERE ARE A LOT OF EVENTS, AS WE'RE SPEAKING NOW, THERE'S A JUNETEENTH CELEBRATION.

I'M WONDERING IF THINGS LIKE THAT MATTER?

>> THEY DO MATTER.

BUT I WANT TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ACTUALLY HAS A MUCH HARDER BATTLE RIGHT NOW THAN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN TERMS OF ITS RELATIONSHIP TO BLACK VOTERS.

ONE OF THE THINGS THEY REALLY NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO AND REALLY INVEST MONEY INTO ARE THESE ORGANIC LISTENING CONVERSATIONS.

SIT DOWN WITH BLACK VOTERS AND SAY, TELL US WHAT YOU WANT.

AND THEN LISTEN, RATHER THAN LECTURE.

IT'S THE SAME ADVICE THAT I GAVE IN MY BOOK TO REPUBLICANS, IF YOU ARE ACTUALLY SERIOUS ABOUT WINNING OVER BLACK VOTERS, SIT DOWN AND LISTEN.

DON'T START SIX MONTHS BEFORE AN ELECTION.

AND I THINK IT'S -- IT'S A TALL CHARGE, BUT IT'S NOT TOO LATE, AND CERTAINLY, IF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS WILLING TO INVEST MONEY AND TIME AND EFFORT, THEY CAN WIN BACK THOSE VOTERS WHO SEEM DISAFFECTED AND DISENCHANTED WITH THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT TOO LATE.

>> PROFESSOR LEAH RIGUEUR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AND SHARING THESE INSIGHTS WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.