♪♪♪ male announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by the Cleone Peterson Eccles Endowment Fund.

Jason Perry: Tonight on "The Hinckley Report," Utah's legislature holds interim meetings to set the framework for their agenda ahead of the general session, candidates jump into the 2022 Senate race as campaigns gear up for another contentious election season, recent polls take the temperature of Utahns on pressing issues.

♪♪♪ CC BY ABERDEEN CAPTIONING 1-800-688-6621 WWW.ABERCAP.COM Jason Perry: Good evening and welcome to "The Hinckley Report."

I'm Jason Perry, Director of the Hinckley Institute of Politics.

Covering the week, we have Frank Pignanelli partner at Foxley and Pignanelli Government Relations Firm.

Heidi Hatch, anchor with KUTV 2 News.

And Doug Wilks, Executive Editor of the Desert News.

Thank you so much for being with us this evening.

I want to get right into some meetings that happened this week with our legislature.

They had their interim meetings, we've got a little bit of a preview about what's going to come during the legislative session, and some of the issues got pretty hot right away.

I want to start with one from Representative Christianssen and Lyman, Doug, 'cause Deseret News is running an editorial about this as well.

Once again, a conversation emerging at least from them about election fraud in the state of Utah and throughout the country.

Doug Wilks: Well, when it when an audit's used as a political weapon, it doesn't serve its intended purpose.

There was a sentiment that let's just have the audit and see what happens that does no harm, but what we've seen in Arizona and elsewhere as it does do harm, 'cause it undermines an election.

It undermines when there's no reason to bring forth an audit, and in Utah the election was sound.

Donald Trump won decisively, there've been zero complaints.

Both Governor Cox and Lieutenant Governor Henderson, they came forward with very strong statements.

It's a waste of time, it's a waste of money, but more importantly, it actually does harm when you do an audit like this.

Well it's interesting, Heidi, because as the Lieutenant Governor said, we had 462 races in the state of Utah, not a single protest came from any those candidates in those races, yet we still have some legislators looking for this audits of those election results.

What is the impact kinda on the state, and why did our elected officials come out so quickly against that request?

Heidi Hatch: Well, I think it's important that they come out quickly, because we didn't have any contested races.

I don't think that there were no questions in the election overall across the country, and where there were questions or concerns, they should look after him, but we didn't have those issues here.

So I think that's where the political theater comes in, where they want to, you know, go to their home state after they've been to a meeting someplace out and say I'm putting my foot down, you've got to look into it, but it doesn't help confidence, as he said.

You know, we really need to go into this next election trying to help people understand how our elections work, why they work, and why they work so well so that people are willing to turn out and vote again, because otherwise we're going to be losing people and sliding backwards to a point where people don't want to vote.

Jason Perry: Making sure people do vote and trust the system, Frank, I wanna get to that for a second.

Doug, you referenced that we had a quick response from our Governor and Lieutenant Governor, so I wanna read this to you, Frank, and give us some context for this statement from the Governor's office itself and how it relates to this issue.

This is what they said, "We are frustrated by the misinformation that was presented in the Judiciary Interim Committee today.

Namely, that voting machines can be hacked, that there are more ballots then voters, that algorithms control voter registration, and other spurious claims made without evidence.

All of these assertions are absolute falsehoods and run counter to Utah law and the foundation of our constitutional republic."

Pretty strong.

Frank Pignanelli: Very strong, let me give you a little bit of background.

So I, you know, I go to--in fact this last Wednesday was the 35th season of interim for me, and I'm walking across the grounds of the Capitol.

I said, well, you know, I could go to a tax policy discussion, or I could go watch this committee here, and you know what I chose.

So I was there, I watched the committee hearing in person, and they spoke to several legislators afterwards, including the Chairman Lizenby who did a great job.

You've got a couple of dynamics that are happening here, and I think the governor's office and lieutenant governor's office office encapsulated some of the frustration.

They have the ability to say that, and they should say that that, but the legislators are not as free to say this because they're really hearing from a small group of constituents that are very vocal.

A couple things dynamics are running through this process.

Number one is the county clerks.

Most lawmakers, especially those outside of Salt Lake county have a strong relationship with the county clerks, who do a phenomenal job.

In fact the Hinckley Institute did several seminars which I was honored to participate in where we highlighted in a tremendous amount of effort these county clerks are doing in order to protect the integrity of the elections, and so when Representative Christianssen and some others were called, said are you attacking these clerks?

They backed off but in a sense they are, 'cause they're just trying to repudiate the system.

The second thing, the element that's happening here is this truly is the trumpet spar group, and they're small, but they're very vocal, and the thing about the legislature that people forget it is a pure democracy, and so these lawmakers have to respond to these these elements.

The another dynamic that's happening is lawmakers do have faith in the process, and that was reflected in what the governor is saying, because they have faith in their clerks, but they have faith in the guy who was running the election system last year, and that's Spencer Cox, and of course, Deidre Henderson's now running it too, so you have all these different elements.

Now, what a lot of people don't understand is when you have something that contentious, and what you do is you stick it in an interim committee.

I did that when I was a legislator, because that way you have a chance to hear from it, and then does it really end up in legislation?

Probably not, there may be some tweaks there, but the bigger picture is this, is that I think there is a concern that you have this dynamic of a lack of faith in institutions, and so the governor's office trying to say, okay, it's not--does not exist here.

So I think the strong statement needed to be made, the governor did that, and that's important, because that way it reassures the moderate Utahns who are not talking to the lawmakers that indeed the system is sound, and it is valid.

Doug Wilks: Well, just to add on this, the problem with this is that doesn't settle the matter.

You know, you use an audit to settle the matter and everyone agrees to that process, but as we saw in Arizona, social media ratchets up again, people don't accept the results.

President Biden got a few more votes through that process, and yet it continues and it continues, so when it's used as a political hammer it doesn't do us any good, and it actually hurts us.

Jason Perry: Heidi, at the heart of some of this that came up in the media, of course as Frank indicated, Representative Lizenby the did not allow this to go any further, and the conversation ended at the time, but part of the conversation was a little bit of a shot at mail in ballots, and Utah's one of eight states where every eligible voter's able to get a ballot and vote by mail.

What are some implications of those allegations, and how do Utahns feel?

I know you talked to them about being able to vote by mail?

Heidi Hatch: I think generally most people like voting by mail because it makes it easier.

You can vote at home in the luxury of your pajamas at your kitchen table, and more people are likely to vote, but I do think there are some things that we've become accustomed to where you have the pomp and circumstance of showing up on the actual election day, and you hand your ballot over to someone and somehow that feels safe and secure, it's what we've done.

So there have been some changes we've had to get used to of whether you drop it in the ballot box or in the, you know, mail drop.

Utah I think is ahead of the curve with most of the country in that we've been testing out, tryin' out, and it's working.

There were some bumps in the road.

I think Utah County took an election cycle to catch up and figure out what was going on, but it's working well here in Utah.

I think where some of the concerns have come in the last year is we saw with the pandemic other states tried in the middle of the election that maybe hadn't been caught up as quickly as we had, they had problems, and when you see other people having problems, somehow it's reflected on to us, and we think that we're having those same problems, which we were not.

Jason Perry: I wanted to ask you, Frank, as a former elected official, just kinda in the mind of someone who's running for office, and you have in the past successfully, does this change the dynamic much for how you campaign knowing that these ballots are just--are going out to every eligible voter, and oftentimes, particularly in Utah, those ballots come in well before the election day?

Frank Pignanelli: They do, in my opinion, the mail-in balloting changed substantially change the campaign process for the better.

You don't have the October surprise, 'cause I did it, my opponent's did it.

You drop a piece of literature two days before election day, so you can attack them, you can't really do that.

The second thing is that you can track over the period of three weeks who's voting, not voting, and really urge people to come out vote.

The other thing about it, too, is it really gives people a chance if they have a question, especially on a matter that's an initiative or something like that, they can go look it up and do some research.

In my opinion, it's been much, much improved the election process, which just like people will accept it.

In terms of voter fraud in the mail, there's a little bit that does happen.

What it is it's the mothers of missionaries or children at school like my wife who try to vote for their child.

When you talk these clerks, that's the biggest problem we have is people who want to participate in the mail-in process, and they talk to a child who's living someplace else, oh yeah, can you vote for me?

So Utah has taken the elections by mail, and typical Utah, the level of excellence is here, it's all the way up there.

We really are the gold standard of voting in this country, and that's why I think a lot of Utahns, elected officials say you're gonna make a tax on this, please have it verified, and 'cause it really works well at Utah, we've really done a good job, and we should be proud of what we do in terms of how we elect our officials.

Jason Perry: Doug, one last comment on this, because of some polling we've done with you in the Desert News asking Utahns, about 75% of Utahns said they participate in vote by mail, and they believe that it was done properly and their vote was counted properly.

Doug Wilks: Yeah, and that's good data.

David Magleby, they did some data years ago, might have been 2016, Utah was ahead of the curve on this, Utah is putting itself forward to the nation.

It's been written about in the Atlantic and other news organizations, and there's overwhelming confidence in vote by mail.

In fact, in the study that David Magleby did, there was more confidence in vote by mail and more concern about walking into the poll, depending on the experience someone had.

So overwhelmingly Utah's done a good job with this.

It has changed media a little bit.

Used to be that you could do a lot of information and content talkin' about the candidates the week before, but now media has to decide, well, how are we-- you know, at what point are we gonna start talking about the candidates?

At what point do you have a debate that, you know, maybe you're gonna televise?

And so we have had to recalibrate a little bit how do we get the information, because we know people are gonna be at their kitchen table taking a look at the information and having a little more thoughtful choice, perhaps.

Jason Perry: I want to get to a couple other items that happened in the interim session that I think we're gonna have some conversations, some tough conversations between now and then.

One, Heidi, this is about sort of K through 12 transparency.

Interesting, This is Senator Lincoln Fillmore is proposing legislation.

This is getting into the classroom, saying materials for K through 12 dealing with social sciences need to be posted online for parents to review beforehand, before they are taught in the class.

Heidi Hatch: I just don't think that's going to work.

I know that we have a curriculum that's laid out, and I think if parents want to check into what that curriculum, they can, but our teachers come into the classroom with their own reality and the life they've lived, and the news that's happening of the day, and we have to give our teachers the ability to talk to our kids about the current events and connect them into history.

And so I think that's where parenting has to come in.

You know, sit down at the kitchen table with your kids, talk about what they're learning at school, talk about the ideas and--.

Our kids are going to be exposed to different ideas, and I don't know that you can always know every word that's going to happen in a class.

Some teachers are gonna mess up, they're going to give their opinion in a way they probably shouldn't instead of asking kids what they think or sharing in the right way, but we can't control every word a teacher's going to say, and I think that we have to give a little trust in the system and trust our kids that they're willing to listen and learn and that we've raised 'em in a way that they can weigh all that information.

Jason Perry: Now, Frank, this goes back a long ways.

I mean, there are hidden issues inside of this as well, right?

There is some concern from legislators just like Heidi was talking about now about certain issues that are going to be taught and whether or not the parents are fully aware of what those are.

Frank Pignanelli: This is a long time, decades long issue, because I remember when I was in the legislature and something sent us about we want to teach children about the social aspects of something, and there was a big push saying they're teaching socialism, and so this goes back.

Now, I'm torn on this issue because my three children went through public schools, and each one of them came home one day and said the teacher said that lobbyists are a part of the problem.

So I would love to have advanced notice of that being part of the curriculum.

But on the other hand, what you're seeing is you've got these legislators are getting pressure again, probably or maybe the same group of people in many ways, to talk about, deal with critical race theory, and some of the teachings that the they don't like.

And again, they're hearing from this group, and they're tryin' to figure out how do we deal with this, because the sponsor of this transparency admitted when they were discussing this in special session about critical race, he wasn't sure how to even to define critical race.

They're tryin' to figure out a way to deal with some of the more outspoken parents at the same time that doesn't interfere--the transparency, so they're hearing about this, they're tryin' to figure out what alternative, again, through the interim committee process, what do they do?

And I offer this as a challenge, those who are concerned about this transparency, they need to talk to their legislator, because these lawmakers are hearing from individuals that are concerned about, they're tryin' to figure out an easy path through it.

A lot of concerns have been raised, but that's what's happening here, they're responding to the dynamic of outspoken individuals.

Jason Perry: We'll watch this one closely.

Another item came up, Doug, this is Senator Kirk Cullimore, what he's calling Prosperity 2030, sweeping reforms when it comes to the environment and air quality.

Doug Wilks: It's fascinating to look at those reforms.

One thing we learned through the pandemic, through Covid-19, when all the cars were off the road, the air got better, and I think it just get better in Utah, it got better around the world.

So is there a way to get higher functioning, cleaner cars onto the road?

And you know a decade ago, we did the cash for clunkers program nationally, put a billion dollars in, and within a month that money was spent.

They put 2 million more in, and 700,000 cars were pulled off the road.

So there are things that can be done to incentivize people to either buy a cleaner car, get rid of their old car, and then there's already standards in place so that the fuel is gonna get cleaner.

So Heidi, this so interesting.

I'm just gonna get a couple of these points, so which--the cash for clunkers idea, an effort to get cleaner vehicles on the road, tiered pricing for vehicle registration, new standards on emission, and even some cap and trade.

So how about a couple of those big issues?

But also the fact that this is a Republican in our legislature, in leadership that's proposing this, which is something you've not seen for a while.

Heidi Hatch: And he says it's the number one thing he's hearing from constituents, and I think we all care about the air, and I think it's important we look at the health.

I think he's got a big wish list here and a big tackle, and one concern I have looking at it is when you're looking at asking people to replace their cars, I think that's hard enough in any given year, when you're talking about replacing a car, 'cause I think if most people could and they had the money to buy a new car, but right now car prices are going up whether they're used or they're new, they're talking about possibly it could be two, five, even ten years down the road that we catch up to the supply chain of getting the cars we want, so I think they're good goals to work towards, the question is how realistic are they?

And do we have the money to make it happen?

Do families have the money to make it happen?

And then can we back it up on the other end where we actually have these clean cars and the technology available for people to buy if they want them?

Jason Perry: Frank, it's interesting, Heidi makes some really great points here, and what's also interesting in this conversation's from a Republican legislator with lots of support right here, there's like an economic development argument in here while Heidi was just referencing as well.

They're saying this is good for the whole state, in fact, it may be critical for the state.

Frank Pignanelli: What's fascinating is the politics.

You know, 12 years ago, the clean air caucus up at the legislature was Patrice Aaron and a couple of Democrats, and in the last several years it has dramatically changed, 'cause I get a lot 'cause I represent, you know, automobile manufacturers, I developed--a manufacturing companies, and the issues there, the questions we're getting are not from Democrats, it's from Republicans.

Again, they're responding from Republican families asking questions why can't the air be any cleaner.

The whole political dynamic has completely shifted.

I attended a legislative breakfast with the high tech community and lawmakers, and the number-one issue was clean air, and they said we have people that we want to bring in and they see the air, and so that's part of the economic development.

The other part of the economic development piece is, we want great manufacturing here, but because of the air we can only do so much aside the Wasatch Front, because otherwise we exceed federal standards.

So it really is becoming a critical component not just of health, but also of economic development.

And that's why you see a lot of Republicans responding to it.

So I would say that this has now become a major issue for the Republican caucus both in the house and Senate, this based upon in response to the constituents, and that's a good thing, because it does help statewide economy and the health.

Jason Perry: I want to get to some elections that are coming forward, and I want to start with a very local one.

I wanna talk about Sandy City for just a moment, not just about what's happening in Sandy City, but it'll get to this issue of rank choice voting, which is just so interesting.

So, Heidi, eight candidates running for Sandy City Mayor, like four members of the council, their own executive director that works for them.

Talk about what's happening there a little bit, and you know, in what way--you know, there's so many people jumping in this race this time.

Heidi Hatch: Well, Halloween is probably gonna be relaxing 'cause they'll only have to answer their doors so many times to the kids that are coming, but I'm assuming that they have so many people knocking on their doors right now that want to get their message out, because rank choice voting gives all of these people an option where they can run and they have a chance.

My concern when you look at eight people is a lot to get to know, to understand, to understand their policies, their politics, and so it'll be interesting to see how this shakes out, because I see rank choice voting working so well in races like the Governor's race if we were to go back when we were looking at that crowded primary.

There were so many candidates, there was good candidates, we understood where they stood on the issues, and I think everyone could probably rank out where each of them stood in their mind.

The question is can they do that in Sandy and go through, because a lot of 'em are already serving on the council or work with the council, so I'm interested to see how it shakes out and if people pick their favorite and just vote for their favorite, or if they really do go through and rank them and vote for them that direction.

Jason Perry: No matter what happens, there's gonna be some awkward conversations there at their city council going forward.

So, Doug, talk about how this really plays out for the state.

Of course, our legislature paved the way for cities to be able to do this, this may be a prominent one, but I want to get to this theme that Heidi just brought up, too, and using the Governor's race is a good example.

When you have a lot of candidates like we'd had for the Governor's race, it is possible for someone to win that primary with 30-something-percent of the vote.

This at least gets people, this rank choice voting options, well, if I go one through eight and I rank all of them, I have a chance at least my one or two being the one that wins.

Well, the political parties still want control and power, right?

So political parties get nervous about this kind of rank choice warning.

If you had ranked choice wanting in the Governor's race, that would have changed the dynamic of that race pretty dramatically.

On a local level where you have a city council, and you have group in it, it does seem to make sense, right?

'Cause you say, well, here are the people that have the most message, now we'll rank them.

It's typically on a local level non-partisan, so you take your top couple of, you know, the people and then let them run off.

On a statewide race, so--and you have a pretty dominant Republican party, it's gonna be two Republicans maybe in that final vote, three Republicans.

How are you going to do it?

Where does an independent line up?

So it's really about the political powers of the parties and the political power of the people, and it'll be interesting to see how rank choice voting works out, who wins that battle.

Jason Perry: Frank, I wanna draw on your experiences as an elected official as well, and of course, this idea is one--like, we'll use the Sandy City race as the example.

You have these eight candidates, and so you rank all of them, and the last place person is knocked off, those votes, they're number two goes until you have someone that wins the majority.

How are elected officials maybe not just at a super-local race like the one we're talkin' about here, but maybe going forward for the state of Utah, is there an interest in this from like legislators, for example?

Frank Pignanelli: First of all, this is not devoid of controversy.

You've got studies on either side showing that this works and helps democracy.

You know, it's one thing for the legislature to say, okay, we'll let the municipalities do it, but I'll be surprised if legislators want to do this on a statewide basis for the legislature or state offices.

The reason why is if you win the first round, and you get the most votes, but then all of a sudden the subsequent rounds happened and you lose, there's gonna be a lot of squawking, especially if you were in a position where you can modify policy in the legislature and state government.

And that's where, for example, you know we saw this--this almost happened to New York mayor's race, this summer where the individual came out the first round, had won by substantial majority, but he almost lost it, so subsequent.

So people were gearing up to attack the system.

That's why I think that concern is is that if I win the most the first round, I won, and that's-- I think you're gonna see that element really play as they further develop this.

And I don't know if Utah's quite ready.

It's actually been around for a long time.

I'm not sure Utah's ready for further expansion of rank choice voting.

Doug Wilks: Frank, do you think it will hurt democracy, rank choice will?

Do you have an opinion on that?

Frank Pignanelli: What I worry about--I don't think it hurts democracy, I like it, I like anyone--but what I do worry about is that you'll start seeing this coalition, and some people say it's good, you know, these people teaming up and a lot of people say, wait a minute, I chose that person, I didn't choose a team.

It encourages--what I do worry about it's confusing, especially when you've got eight people on, it's one thing if it's three people, but eight people on, I worry about how the decisions are made upon that.

So it doesn't mean that that it hurts democracy, but I wonder if it hurts the process of deliberate thought being made and choosing a candidate.

Jason Perry: Interesting, Heidi, I want to get to a thing the Doug brought up just a moment ago, 'cause you made the idea of where does an independent line up, and I want to get to that as it refers to our Senate race, Senator Mike Lee's seat.

We had a new person enter this race over the last two weeks, Evan McMullin, talk about that the entry right there and any potential implications.

Heidi Hatch: Old but new again, the interesting thing is is in the media we all know who Evan McMullin is, we cover him extensively, and he was the Guy if you don't remember that was running as the I'm not President Trump, and he garnered about 21% I think of the vote here in Utah during the election, but I don't think people have been thinking about him since then, and so he's come into the race thinking I'm going to be an Independent, I'm gonna mix things up, but the interesting thing is is that Mike Lee is obviously running on the far right of his party.

There's been multiple other people who have thrown their hat into the ring as a more Moderate option, and so he's not this wild card, there's other Moderate options in there, and so the more people that get into this race the more likely it is I think that Senator Mike Lee keeps his seat.

So it's an interesting dynamic.

There's a lot of names in there, and is his name going to stand out?

I don't know if people remember who he is or if he kinda had this lightning bolt moment where people just wanted another option in the presidential election.

Jason Perry: Historically, Doug, in the state of Utah, Independent candidates don't fare very well, their five percentish of the vote.

This was the one of those rare occurrences, where Heidi says about 21.3% of the vote went to Evan McMullin.

Do people know who he is?

I mean is this--what kind of efforts is he going to have to have if he really wants to take on Senator Mike Lee, for example?

Doug Wilks: Well, we have polling that will release in conjunction with Hinckley, you know, this week talked about where these candidates stand.

But the Independent part of this really is secondary, it's you know, who emerges as the candidate from the Republican Party.

Donald Trump won the state, Senator Mike Lee still polls very well in the state.

You know, we asked him what he thought about these challengers, and he says I'm just working, I'm goin' to work.

He has influence in Congress, he has name recognition, he's the senior Senator it's difficult to unseat an incumbent, and you know, Joe Biden's had a lot of struggle.

You know, is the house gonna flip?

You know, Frank follows this maybe closer than I do, but it's an amazing--it's an amazing time, Biden's trying to win, get five trillion dollars worth of expenses, new taxes, I mean, it's a phenomenal time right now, and Mike Lee's comment I'm just gonna work, the more people who get in the race, you know, Mike Lee's still in a pretty strong, strong position.

Jason Perry: Frank, in our last 30 seconds here, talk about the implications of that, because it is an interesting point, because who he caucuses with--let's just say hypothetical, who would Evan McMullin caucus with, the Republicans, Democrats, how does that impact the makeup of the House and Senate?

Now you got 20 seconds, sorry.

Frank Pignanelli: Okay, well, Evan will probably I would say would caucus with the Republicans, but I don't see how he puts it together to win.

And Heidi made a good point, if you've got several different moderate Republicans and the Independent and then of course in the Republican Primary, Mike Lee is going to win that.

Mike Lee is not taking anything for granted.

To his credit, he's out there fundraising, he's working hard, he'll get on the ballot through both the convention and probably a signature process, and then who are the other Republicans to get on that primary ballot?

Because if it's more than one, it's gonna help him a lot.

And then they've made it harder for Democrats and Independents to shift a party.

You have to do it I think by March 30th, so they made it harder, 'cause what happened last governor's race for that to happen you change the ballots, so you'd have to really look at it and say Mike Lee really has the upper hand in this one for a whole host of reasons.

And the other thing is he is standing up against the Biden administration, which a majority of you Utahns really like, especially in light of what's happening to both public lands issues and on the economic issues.

Jason Perry: Okay, thank you, that's gonna have to be the last word, we'll watch this race closely.

Thank you all for your comments, and insights tonight.

And thank you for watching "The Hinckley Report."

This show is also available as a podcast on PBSUtah.org/HinckleyReport or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you for being with us, we'll see you next week.

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