♪♪♪ male announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by the Cleone Peterson Eccles Endowment Fund.

Jason Perry: Tonight on "The Hinckley Report" the second impeachment trial of former President Trump begins as Utah Senators play diverging yet pivotal roles.

The legislative session continues as the Capitol opens to the public and lawmakers tackle major issues and controversies.

And state national leaders discuss how to bridge the partisan politics that have divided our country.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Jason: Good evening and welcome to "The Hinckley Report."

I'm Jason Perry, director of the Hinckley Institute of politics.

Covering the week, we have Robert Gehrke, news columnist with the Salt Lake Tribune; Rosie Nguyen, anchor with ABC4 News; and Boyd Matheson, opinion editor for The Deseret News.

Thank you for being with us tonight.

I want to jump right into something happening on the national stage, but where Utah's once again, playing a role.

Let's get to the second impeachment trial, Boyd, cause I want to start with you, of former President Trump.

Our two senators, very different roles, different positions, talk about what those are and how you're hearing that they came to them.

Boyd Matheson: Yeah, I think the big thing that we're seeing is you have Mitt Romney saying, Hey, we have to make sure there is accountability for something such as inciting a riot, you know, on the United States Capitol.

That kinda insurrection needs accountability.

You have on the other side, you have Senator Lee who is taking a more constitutional approach, saying he's no longer a sitting president and so the Senate doesn't really have the authority to do that.

So that's where the really interesting debate is happening.

And you see it not just within the walls of the Senate and Utah's delegation, you also see it all the way over to the Supreme Court.

Normally you would have the Supreme Court Chief Justice would preside.

He's banking his entire decision not to preside on the word "the" the president and because he doesn't think, and obviously President Trump is no longer the sitting President.

Chief Justice Roberts says I'm going to take a pass.

So Patrick Leahy from Vermont, the President Pro Tem will preside over that.

Jason: So, Rosie, this is part of what's keep creating this divide because there's no clear answer on that and that's why we have Senator Romney saying absolutely, incitements insurrection must be accounted for.

But you have our attorney Mike Lee, Senator Mike Lee saying the Constitution does not allow for this.

Rosie Nguyen: The Utahns that I've spoken to they're ready to move forward, right?

And they're looking for some leadership from our congressional representatives to kind of guide them in that sort of way and when you have Senator Lee and Senator Romney, who are saying two different things, you know, it really comes down to should we stick to our-- what our representative is saying?

Should we stick to party affiliation?

Do we make our own decisions?

And some people at the end of the day, they're asking themselves will the second impeachment trial do anything?

Is this something just so it could be on the books.

And so they're torn.

They're tryin' to move forward here with, right, some of maybe the executive orders or the bills that we're seeing on the national level.

And now here we're still have the second impeachment trial lingering.

So for Utahns, I think some of them are ready to move forward.

Jason: I think that's true too.

Robert, talk about what this means within the political party itself too because all these conversations right now are all within the Republican Party.

Talk about how that's playing out because that division does not seem to be closing.

Robert Gehrke: Yeah, I think Boyd hit on it with his constitutionality question because that's created a bit of a dodge for a lot of the members who maybe don't want to have to confront the issue directly.

So, you know, you're not going to have Mike Lee have to take a position on whether he thought, you know, the president's actions were impeachable because he says we can't impeach.

So, you know, it is divided for the Republican Party.

I think it's going to be uncomfortable for Mitt Romney frankly to come back to Utah and have to try to explain why he is supporting proceeding with this because, you know, as Rosie mentioned, I think a lot of Utahns, I think a lot of Utah Republicans in particular, either don't feel it was impeachable, what the president did or that it's time to just proceed and, you know, move on with the Biden presidency.

So, I think that's going to be in a difficult position for Senator Romney to explain to his Republican supporters.

Jason: Boyd, does he have time for that for Mitt Romney because this really is two different ways.

We've done a poll recently, where Mitt Romney did really well with the Democrats and the unaffiliated not so well with his own party.

Does that lessen based on what's happening with this trial or it's gonna take some time maybe?

Boyd: Yeah, I think it's gonna take some time and I think one of the interesting things is the time element.

You know if the House would have immediately sent over the article of impeachment they could've done it before President Trump left office and that would have created a very different dynamic to Robert's point, would have caused a lot of people to have to really take a position on a position rather than a technicality.

I think the other thing that's really interesting is there's gonna be some tug and pull within the Democratic Party as well because how long will this trial actually go?

The Democrats are probably thinking we want to get this done swiftly so that we can get onto the Biden presidency agenda.

The Republicans now may say, you know what maybe the Democrats should have to swim in it a little bit and they may drag it out.

But in the end I actually think both parties will say hey, let's let's make this a very quick trial, quick vote, obviously the vote on the constitutionality.

I think send a pretty clear message in terms of where the numbers are.

So I think both sides in the end.

Again this will always come down to a deal between Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell as most things happened in the United States Senate.

Jason: I think we should take just a moment to talk about where Utahns are really as it gives the flavor for how these elected officials are reacting and it's a poll we recently conducted with Boyd and The Deseret News.

I want to talk about a couple of these numbers because it does give a flavor for how Utahns feel about not these-- just these elected officials, but where these key issues are.

So, Rosie, I want to give you a couple of these.

So we asked how people felt about people breaking into the U.S. Capitol, this insurrection that happened, destroying the Capitol.

I'll just give you the --90% of Utahns completely opposed to that but when you break that down it's a little different like who's to blame for example.

And there are a lot of Republicans in the state of Utah that do not feel like President Trump had really much responsibility in this particular case, 46% of the people said no responsibility at all for what happened.

Rosie: That's very, very interesting.

I think, you know, they're torn because at the same time working in local media and journalism.

It also I think it depends on where these individuals are ingesting their information at the same time.

And that's why I always encourage people to, you know, get uncomfortable.

Look at information sourcing from outside of where you normally do and maybe just maybe what I'm hearing from those that I've spoken to is perhaps some of these Utahns don't think that President Trump could be to blame depending on where they've been getting their information.

If they're they're getting it from just one side and they're not getting the other side that could be influencing where they stand as far as is President Trump to blame for this.

Jason: Robert, discuss that for just a moment and you do such great columns about this too as you're talking to people, where they're getting their information, but maybe some of just the false information that's behind it as well.

With one or two more points from this poll about the election fraud itself, because that's where a lot of this is being perpetuated.

When we asked do you think there was widespread election fraud, 41% of Utahns said yes so.

Robert: Yeah, and I think this is gonna be a lingering issue that we're going to have to deal with as Americans and Utahns for a long time is that there's a fundamental disconnect on what the reality of the situation is and so if you have people who believe that there was widespread election fraud that swung the election and these these numbers are not isolated to Utah necessarily.

This is-- these are numbers that are reflected in polls across the country in the Republican party, but there's this disconnect between people who believe the election was legitimate and those who don't.

And those who believe that President Trump was totally responsible.

And those who believe he was not responsible at all.

And you know we talk about unity.

The president in his inaugural speech talking a lot about unity, but unifying those two when there's this foundational difference base statement as Rosie mentioned on where people are getting their information and which what information they're believing is really going to be an uphill battle I think for years to come.

Jason: Yeah, we've been battling, did you have something on that Boyd?

Boyd: I was just gonna add to Robert's point, which I think is so great, is that the one thing we have never fully tested in our democracy is can it function without trust?

We've tested it against all of the different extremes of the right and the extremes of the left and all the kind of mixes in between and and scandals like Watergate and so on but we've never had a situation where we've really had to go through a period of time with such a deep lack of trust, lack of trust both for the institutions, but now that's also spilling over and we--our trust in each other as individuals and in our communities is also fraying.

And so to me that's gonna be part of this discussion Robert's alluding to that's gonna linger for a while is we've lost it.

We've always had a good skepticism in the country for government and for big institutions.

That's a healthy thing, but now that's starting to fray because that trust is becoming so deep.

And to Rosie's point, you know, we're having a hard time deciding what is truth anymore, but that starts with each of us individually.

We have to be responsible for truth first.

Jason: Can I ask Rosie, Robert, how are you addressing that in your newsrooms?

'Cause that is a very clear issue and you are part of this system alright disseminating truth.

How are you talking about approaching this?

How have you been?

Rosie: Well, for what I have found and speaking to the individuals that maybe don't trust local media, I can only speak on that little local media aspect, is that they feel attacked.

There's a fear, right?

They feel like someone is out to get them.

Whenever I approach an individual that's a little skeptic towards us, I can sense that there's a lack of mistrust and you have to let them know like I'm here to amplify your voice to I'm here to show you that your voice does matter.

We want you at the table and invite them.

Invite them, bring them to the table.

And then when they feel and that's why, you know, sometimes it's great to have these discussions raw, right?

It's great to allow these individuals to just say what they have to say and then facilitate that environment for constructive dialogue.

I do a lot of social justice reporting which plays into our politics.

And a lot of times people fear coming to the table to discuss this with them because they feel like they're going to be shut out.

So we have to reassure these individuals who don't trust in media is that we're going to include you at the table.

We're not going to shut you out.

We're not gonna filter you.

We're going to give you equal time, whatever that is.

And that's hard, that's an uphill battle, but that's something that we continually have to strive for.

Jason: It's really good.

Robert?

Robert: Yeah, I think Rosie made an excellent point, you know, as journalist, as Americans, we need to listen more and talk less probably.

And so, we try to do some of that.

We try to be as transparent as we can but we also have to be honest with people.

And you know, we're not going to capitulate when people are, for example, denying that masks work.

This Covid thing has been a real baptism by fire not just, you know, we've had that obviously the election season.

We've had Covid.

All of this has been a real baptism by fire for the news media.

And you know, it's going to be-- it's going to continue to be difficult.

And the trust has to be earned.

And I think, you know, as Boyd has seen in The Deseret News.

I mean they'd been taking heed from people like Senator Lee, who think that, you know, who question some of the reporting over there as well.

So, it's widespread and I think we've seen in the last four years with the Trump presidency, a real concerted effort to undermine the legitimacy of all of our institutions, including the news media.

And that's gonna be a challenge for us in the years to come.

Boyd: I just want to go back to Rosie's point in terms of what people are feeling and that disconnect and one of the things that has given rise to the kind of populism on both the far right and the far left is this idea that the system is rigged.

That those in Washington, or those that are wealthy or well connected, that they can get what they want but the rest of us are on our own.

And so there's that feeling of lack of trust and not being seen.

And so, whether that's in the Black community, people not feeling that they are seen in terms of their experience.

Whether that's our young people feeling like they're kind of getting cheated out.

Whether it's someone who's dealing with depression or anxiety feeling not seen at all.

And so, as David Brooks always says, you know, we have to be able to see deeply and be deeply seen.

That's where this all begins.

And a lot of what each of our organizations do in terms of telling the truth to Robert's point and standing by the truth and then also making sure that we're listening.

That we're allowing people to be heard because otherwise you end up with these populist movements that, you know, the populace, we would only has to incite the riot.

It doesn't have to lead.

It doesn't have to govern.

It doesn't have to do the hard work and heavy lifting of bringing people together.

Jason: This bringing together thing is just such an interesting point.

In particular when we talk about truth and where people are getting it.

Make, Boyd, make-- give us a comment about this interesting article you wrote because what you said our nation needs is one very important word "grace."

Boyd: Yeah.

Jason: Talk about what you meant by that and how that might impact this very discussion we just had.

Boyd: Yeah, and one of the things that's important we end up with so many false choices that get presented to us.

Accountability and grace are actually compatible principals and we have to recognize that and we have to look at the idea of how we do treat each other and what that means.

And we can see grace in a lot of different ways in the article you mentioned.

I go through different elements of grace, but I think the biggest thing we need in the country right now is a grace period.

A period where we can all exhale just a little bit.

Where we can recognize that all of these things that divide us.

The country was set up to have open roiling big time debates.

That's what makes America America.

So this is not about passes-- you know, being passive.

This is not about kumbaya moments and group hugs.

This is about rigorous debate.

And it's about making sure we respect and reverence life and each other because I think more than a political polarization problem what we really have in the in the country is a contempt problem.

And contempt is that belief in the worthlessness of another human being just because you disagree with them or you don't like them.

And contempt is what gives rise to a lot of the things that we see on social media.

Things that we've seen spilling over into our nation's Capitol and other places around the country.

So contempt is really the issue and so it's having grace for that person who disagrees with you.

And as Rosie mentioned earlier, go find it.

I think I was talking with Amos Brown from the Third Baptist Church in San Francisco.

Last-- one of the last students trained by Martin Luther King Jr. And he said what everybody should do today is go out and have lunch, social distance with someone who thinks different, looks different, or lives different than you.

And to me, that's really where grace begins as we start to recognize all the differences in that oneness is not sameness, but we have a lot of things to work together on in this shared project we call democracy.

Jason: It's really good, appreciate that.

Robert, go ahead 'cause you've talked about this two and written about it recently.

Robert: Yeah, I agree with what Boyd said and I think we live in an environment, in a climate where we don't do enough of that seeing and being seen.

Enough of that interacting with people who disagree with us and seeing people for what-- for who they are not necessarily a caricature or stereotype of what we think they are, you know?

And so, you know, social media has put us at our bubbles.

You know, media in general has put us in our bubbles and we need to get out of those bubbles and start appreciating people for who they are.

I mean, I don't have to necessarily agree with the people who stormed the Capitol necessarily but I also shouldn't dismiss everybody who, you know, is a Republican or a Conservative just because, you know, they belong to that party.

I think they are individuals and we all have more in common than not.

I think in most cases.

So yeah, I mean and it begins with as Boyd said that first step, that first, you know, extending the hand, reaching out a little bit and appreciating the humanity in each other.

Jason: That's really good.

Rosie, you wanna comment on this and we'll move on?

Rosie: Yeah, definitely, I think for some reason in the past few years, along with the divisiveness, we're in this mentality now where we're looking for differences amongst each other.

We need to find the similarities and I think that when it comes to local news that's really what we strive for is to find the similarities and all these different demographics.

Whether it comes to race, socioeconomic background, gender, sexuality, age, and that's really what we need to do in the first just try to heal this divide.

So that's what I'm really hoping to see.

And I know, we're seeing this a lot with, right, party lines, with loyalty to the party.

And I kinda wanna bring back Senator Romney, that's kind of why many Utahns have kinda shifted their perspective of him because, you know, they expected him to stick with the Republican party, but he's just kind of standing up for what he has always believed in and he's a very honest person.

So, that's what I'm hoping to see in the next few years is for us to find the similarities amongst us all instead of the differences.

Boyd: To me the party thing is really interesting because you you are getting more and more of these purity tests.

Again, both the Democrats have a problem and the Republicans have a problem.

And there's a day of reckoning coming for both political parties because they've both become very disconnected with the American people.

And I think that's a big challenge.

I think on the Republican side, you now sort of have this three pronged animal where you've got those that are kind of loyal to the former President Trump, you have those who want to go back to the way it used to be, the establishment running everything and controlling the money with Mitch McConnell, but then there's going to be this third way.

The problem with that is it's really hard to win a national election, even a local election gets really, statewide election gets really tricky, and probably the best thing the Republicans have going for them is if the Democrats are starting to feel the same tugs and pulls that the the far left or their parties tugging one way.

The more establishment, you know, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Joe Biden wing of the party, and then you've got this third way and so that's going to be some really interesting conversations in terms of what does party really fit.

I know Roberts hit that a lot in terms of where do we go in terms of political parties and our-- would more political parties be better for the country?

For some coalition governing rather than just what we have now.

Jason: Hmm.

Well, we talked so much-- Robert: I don't think anybody, sorry, I don't think anybody feels well served by the two party system right now, I think.

We're not black and white.

We're not red and blue.

We're not donkey or elephant.

I think people just don't feel well represented by their government in generally and it's not functioning either.

I mean, this polarization has ground everything to a halt, to the point where we can't pass Covid relief.

We can't pass a budget.

We can't do any of the fundamental things that we expect our government to do because of this polarization.

And if we're going to move forward, that's going to come to a stop.

Jason: Well, these are great comments, but we have to transition a bit because we're talking about coming together, but we still have to talk about the legislative session a little bit, alright?

'Cause we've got some controversial things that may be a little different to what we just talked about here, but let's let's go through 'cause importantly, Rosie, so yesterday, our legislature passed the based budgets, which keeps the operations of government going.

Talk about a little bit some of the strategy.

Why did they do that so early and, you know, anything you may have seen inside that Utahns should know about.

Rosie: From what I've heard is that we want to get the big ticket items out of the way.

For example, education.

That was one of the first things tackled.

It takes up some of the biggest chunks of our budget, but it's one of the most important, right?

We always hear that there's never enough funding for education, and especially this pass year with the way that Covid-19 pandemic has impacted education.

That's more necessary than now.

So at least tackling education.

We get that kind of squared away.

And then we see what we have left.

Look at the issues that we have left.

And see how we're going to approach that.

Jason: It's always interesting, Robert, so of course some of our legislators are worried that they're just making sure you know just in case something happens.

There's an outbreak of some sort.

Government could go on but there's also a little bit of sticking it to the governor, a little politics in passing a base budget this early.

Robert: Yeah, I mean, excuse me, this goes back to Walker administration, and the legislature decided to start doing this so they can they can go home now.

They don't need to do anything else governmental function.

And so, it is-- takes a little bit of the leverage away from the governor and that's the way it's been working for 20 years.

They come in and do this base budget right out of the gate.

And as Rosie mentioned it takes a lot of the big ticket items, you know, resolves those.

They can allocate money-- the remaining money later on in the session and they're very fortunate this year frankly, because despite the pandemic, despite the recession, the budgets for Utah is much healthier than almost any other state.

And so, they have a little bit of breathing room, a little flexibility to the point, where they can actually now start talking about, you know, what the governor wants a tax cut for example.

And so, they're gonna start proceeding down that and resolving some of the more contentious items now that they have this sort of foundational budget put to sleep.

Jason: Just rapid fire on a couple of these bills.

Mostly the bed, exactly, exactly right as Robert said.

A couple of the key bills, I'm just gonna give you, talk about those and maybe something you have as well.

Rosie, constitutional carry, guns back in the legislature.

Rosie: Right, we're seeing this is a very controversial bill.

It was a controversial the last time it was in the session.

It's controversial now.

We actually just talked about this last night on our show.

One and you know the pro side.

Talking about removing barriers that would maybe make someone hesitant, right, to conceal carry and on the other end we're talkin' about concealed carry permits require classes that provide educational awareness on gun safety, right, gun use as well as gun storage.

And we need that so it's a very, very contentious bill.

And you know it might make it all the way up to the governor again.

Jason: Very well may.

Boyd: It doesn't count as a legislative session unless there's at least one gun bill.

And there are some serious things that do need to be taken into consideration with a lot of the gun bills and different things that will come on.

I think one that's really important is really getting in to how that plays into suicide.

It's a big issue in the state.

It's an important issue.

And so many of those do happen by gun.

And so that storage that Rosie was talkin' about.

I think those are all really critical pieces of the puzzle.

Jason: Okay, Robert.

Go ahead, Robert.

Robert: One of the concerns that these groups have is that as Rosie mentioned, there's a suicide awareness, suicide prevention piece to the concealed carry class.

And so, they're worried about losing 160,000 people they're reaching each year to educate them about suicide if people aren't going to be going through that process.

And also, you know, you've got law enforcement that was against this bill initially at least.

They may be softening that opposition, but you know, the police chiefs, sheriffs, and law enforcement all opposed this because, you know, the proliferation of concealed weapons, unregulated concealed weapons can be a dangerous thing for them frankly.

So, but I do think this is going to pass.

The Governor has said he'll sign at this time as we know Governor Herbert in 2013 vetoed it.

He threatened to veto it before to kind of keep it in check.

But now it looks like it has an opportunity to actually pass this year.

Jason: So, shots-- I'll use the bill-- taken at the Attorney General, Robert, two bills going after Attorney General Sean Reyes.

Robert: Yeah, I mean this is-- it stems from the election dispute.

Representative Brian King wants to sort of limit the conditions when the Attorney General can join in a lawsuit.

So as we saw the Attorney General joined the Texas challenge to the election results.

He thinks it was a bad use of taxpayer money, was wrong to put the state in that position.

And so he wants the AG to at least give permission or check or consult with the governor before before doing this.

And then you've got Representative Stotter who was actually talking about impeaching the Attorney General and he wants to be clear on this.

He's trying to be clear on this.

He's not trying to actually, you know, proceed with an impeachment necessarily but he wants an investigation into the Attorney General's activities surrounding this Republican Attorney Generals Association effort to motivate people to come out to the protests that turned into a riot in the Capitol.

And then, you know, and it just to try to get some checks and figure out what's going on but he says this is the only mechanism he has to bring about an investigation into those events.

Boyd: I think a lot of that too just in terms of goes back to what we're talkin' about before in terms of trust and transparency.

I think of a bill that would create more transparency in the AG's office about, you know, what kind of brief they're signing onto and what the reasoning is, coordinating with the governor's office, again, I think that's part of that transparency and trust debate.

Jason: It's so interesting people talk about having a super majority in the state of Utah, but these very bills kinda demonstrate that even a super majority have very real divisions.

Rosie: Very, very, very true and that's one great thing about Utah, right, is that there's a little bit more of distinction I would say within party lines, you know, versus, maybe at the nation's Capitol.

And so, here we're seeing issues where national was coming into local and locals coming into national.

Jason: Yeah, it is true.

These are very, very interesting issues.

So many more.

I invite those viewing to visit our legislative website.

Check out the bills, become engaged wherever you can.

Thank you all for your great commentary tonight, I appreciate it.

And thank you for watching "The Hinckley Report."

This show is also available as a podcast on PBSUtah.org/HinckleyReport or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you for being with us.

We'll see you next week.

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