♪♪♪ male announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by the Cleone Peterson Eccles Endowment Fund.

Jason Perry: Tonight on "The Hinckley Report" the redistricting process kicks off as state leaders appoint representatives to draw new political boundaries.

With unexpected budget surpluses the legislature considers numerous funding requests.

And in Washington, Utah's leaders propose a scaled down Covid relief package, while they prepare for Trump's second impeachment trial.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Jason: Good evening and welcome to "The Hinckley Report."

I'm Jason Perry, director of the Hinckley Institute of Politics.

Covering the week, we have Kate Bradshaw, director of Government Affairs at Holland and Hart and Bountiful City councilwoman; Katie McKellar, political reporter with Deseret News; and Spencer Stokes, president of Stokes Strategies.

Thank you for being with us tonight.

We're in the middle of the legislative session.

A lot of things have happened, we're going to talk about some bills today, but Spencer, I wanna start with the budget.

I mean, it's interesting thing to start with but you can tell what people prioritized by what they put their money in.

This has been a big year with our legislature for education.

Spencer Stokes: Well, the base budget's been passed.

We have a lot more money than I think most people thought we would have.

And really record for the rest of the country.

I deal with a lot of national folks and they can't believe how well the state of Utah has managed the budget, but education clearly a big winner.

Teachers who have been really on the front lines of the pandemic getting 1500 dollar bonus.

So the based budgets done and I do believe that you're also going to see a tax decrease, a tax cut for older Utahns.

And so I-- look you have to commend the legislature.

You have to commend how they've handled the pandemic and trying to balance, you know, public health with keeping businesses open.

It was a fine line to walk, but they kept the economy going and I think it's paid off in this session.

Jason: Yeah, Katie, couple of these great points that Spencer mentioned.

Teachers, there's the stipend, but there's also money being put in for the students have fallen behind during this Covid crisis.

Katie McKellar: Right and the 6% WPU increase which was lawmakers when they passed those based budgets they called those that early infusion of cash for education historic.

I don't think they talked about how it's just not something you see that big of an investment, a big boost for education that early in the session.

Usually those are types of things lawmakers debate late into the session.

So I think it was a big show of commitment from legislators saying look, we are prioritizing education.

We're prioritizing it big this year.

Jason: As you're doing your reporting, are people feeling like this was a promise kept 'cause our legislature talk to educators about doing this.

We had a constitutional amendment to get to this.

How are people feeling about it that you're interviewing?

Katie: Yeah, I mean, I think if they didn't keep those commitments I think there would have been a lot of big red flags for people.

Amendment G was put on the ballot with these promises that lawmakers would prioritize education.

That there wouldn't be any tricks.

That this would be used for education and not to free up money to put it elsewhere.

And so, I think lawmakers are trying to walk that walk and showing early on that we really do prioritize education.

Jason: Kate, it's always interesting at this time of the legislative session where you start seeing all the requests.

Yesterday was a big day for people coming up on the Hill asking for certain amounts of money, that will continue in the next week.

What are you seeing out there and what kind of issues seem to be catching the attention of legislators.

Kate Bradshaw: By far the biggest category of bills is law enforcement.

There is a lot of bills dealing with what we saw in 2020 nationally as well as in Utah.

So that is a very big category of bills.

There are a lot of appropriations request and this is that final time to get those requests in so that they can be considered in the process.

There are a lot of one time funding options available.

And so you've seen some requests come in for those.

Spencer mentioned there are a number of different tax bills that are being included for consideration, whether we should exempt social security tax, social security income, whether or not we should increase the dependent care exemption.

There was an interesting discussion about whether PPP loans to be taxed.

It looks like maybe that is not going to be something that's considered and then of course, across the board maybe rate cut on personal income tax.

Those are all part of this funding makes that's that's being considered right now.

Jason: Mhm, Spencer, before we leave the budget there.

It's just interesting, you know, a lot of people think that its just government operations that are being considered here, but there's a lot of things impacting economic development.

Spencer: No question, you know, from film incentive to the Leonardo to, you know, many organizations come to the legislature and ask for some one time funding and it's always fun if you want a morning filled with kicks and giggles.

Go to the legislative webpage, which is very robust, but look at the calendar.

Click on the BEDL, Business Economic Development Labour.

Go click on that and listen to that and see what organizations are coming before the legislature for funding, but I just love-- I agree with you 100% Katie about there were promises that needed to be kept to public education and those are going to happen.

You know, that will be-- they'll need to be vigilant education to make sure those promises continue to be kept but I don't know if it was on purpose or just by accident that they did not pick a letter that fit into the letter grades you get in school.

They picked Constitutional Amendment G. You know if it had been C, D, or F that would've been a problem when talking about education.

Jason: Probably could've picked A. Spencer: Exactly, it would've been better.

Jason: Thought about that.

Let's get a couple of these bills, Katie, because Kate mentioned the police reform.

Big topic of discussion this whole last year as we saw people, you know, protesting in various places.

Give us a couple views of-- there's at least three bills that are supported by the speaker himself.

Katie: Right, House Speaker earlier this week talked about how he has thrown support behind some of these bills that have found early favor with lawmakers through committees.

Representative Romero's bill to require use of force incidents to be reported to at statewide and federal database to get more data.

So we can learn more about what causes these use of force incidents.

Speaker talks about these these bills to show like these are easy steps we can make to progress on these issues, but there are dozens of other bills to require.

Maybe trickier with reforms that Speaker Wilson was not specific about.

Spencer: I will tell you I think, Jason, that if there-- and I can't say this all the time about the Utah legislature, but if you were going to really try to walk a compromise line in police reform, Utah, I think is uniquely positioned to do that.

They're very, very supportive obviously of law enforcement and yet they're embracing some of these reforms.

And I think you'll end up in Utah with some things that will be a decent compromise when it comes to law enforcement.

You know it's difficult to be on the streets Nowadays and in law enforcement.

And so, you know, walking the line of being supportive yet understanding there needs to be some reform is important and not just turning a blind eye to well, we're gonna just 100% support law enforcement.

So I think they've done a great job in walking that line.

Katie: The other one was Representative Romero's bill to require 16 hours of deescalation training.

And so that was kind of I think an easy step since law enforcement already needs to do 40 hours a year on training.

And so, but some other bills that we saw that stalled in some committee last night was Civilian Rearview Borders, Civilian Oversight Board by Representative Wheatley to allow local cities to do that, to set up an oversight board that was not something that found favor with the House Law Enforcement Committee.

They-- some lawmakers expressed concerns about allowing these cities to create these these boards that would be at odds with what they say cities already have the power to do which is, you know, oversee police budgets and stuff like that.

So that was another one that is having difficulty moving forward.

Jason: Before we leave this, Kate, particularly as an elected official yourself not only are they talking about these law enforcement, there's even a bill to protect protests at private residence.

It's trying to get to things, where we saw even this last year people showing up at the governor's house, district attorney's house, as well, talk about that.

Spencer: And answer this correctly, Kate, because I've got signs already made to come to your house, so.

Jason: He wants a misdemeanor maybe.

Kate: It's true I-- you know where my house is so I should be prepared.

You know this is an interesting issue.

And it's one that there was a member of the governor's transition team that happens to live in my city.

And she felt quite strongly about this issue after watching it play out with Dr. Dunn and the Lieutenant Governor Cox.

And she asked does Bountiful have an ordinance like for picketing like Salt Lake City does some of these other places?

And checking it out the answer was no, we don't.

We haven't had this come up but it could, you know, the next Dr. Dunn could be resident of my city or some other city, you know, Panguitch.

So it was one that as we looked at it we thought, you know, maybe that has some statewide applicability and so they took it to the Chiefs of Police Association.

They took this issue to the League of Cities and Towns to look at it and it's one of those things where I think, you know, the the right to peaceably assemble, the right to let your elected officials know that you have some concerns is an important right to protect but it's also one where I think we need to look at how you protect the other people in that household: spouses and children that are that are not elected.

And therefore, the decisions aren't up to them.

And so I think this is a bill I'm interested in in personally seeing move through the process so that we have a uniform application.

Spencer: I do think there's a difference between an elected official and a person who works for the state and I think that was the thing that was most troubling to me.

You know elected official sign up for this and I do want to have the best elected officials that we can and I know that becomes kind of a deterrent to whether or not you want to run for office if you're going to have protesters.

However, you sign up for that to be an elected official as opposed to Angela Dunn who was an appointed person doing a job and have protestors show up at her house that was the part that was troubling for me.

Show up at the governor's mansion all you want, our offices are right across the street.

We saw the protesters.

They were either getting honks or yelled at as was going, you know, the protest was going on but I see there's a big difference between the two.

Jason: Thank you for that.

Kate, I want to start with you about this bill that came out yesterday, because it's something that's starting to get a whole lot of attention in the state from our legislature, but also National Sporting Associations.

Representative Burkland brought this bill out yesterday preserving sports for female students.

You're a former student athlete.

Talk about this bill a little bit because we gotta talk about the sides of this one because it's about to get, you know, really prominent.

Kate: Yes, back in the glory days I played basketball and volleyball for Westminster College and played for my alma mater, Bountiful High, and I know Representative Burkland feels strongly about sports.

She's a referee for high school games.

She's a coach as well for a girls' basketball and it's an issue that is one that I think will generate a lot of interest from folks.

You know women's sports have had an interesting path.

You know thanks to Title IX.

And it was one where when this bill came out I went and looked up the current standards that the High School Activities Association has in place.

And I also then thought well what does the Olympic Committee for instance, have in place?

And looked those up and it does seem that Representative Burkland's bill would take us in a different direction than these other sporting organizations have set their current standards at which is that for someone that is wanting to participate in girl sports that is transgender that they would need to undergo a year of basically hormone suppressing medications.

So that the playing field was leveled.

Representative Burkland's bill would instead very strictly say you play the sport of the gender you were assigned at birth.

It's one of those that's going to be emotionally fraught.

I think for those girls that are playing sports, those transgender athletes that are, you know, looking for a place to compete and looking for acceptance as well.

You know, my personal opinion is probably that following these other organizations so there's a consistency from whether you're playing at a high school level to a college level to an Olympic level makes a lot of sense.

So that there would always be something that is consistent that the athlete could look to and know as they are looking at how they want to compete and where they want to compete and where they best can do so.

Spencer: I think the state lawmakers are adept at doing a lot of things and looking at public policy and a lot of areas.

This is one where I don't think they are adept at looking at.

I think there's going to be a lot of emotion surrounding it.

And I would-- I'd prefer to see them leave it in the hands of the Utah High School Student Activities Association, The Olympic Committee, the NCAA, Pack 12, whatever the sporting organizations are because I think they've got a pretty good handle on it.

And I don't think it's a widespread issue.

And so why elevate it to that level?

I look I'm-- I hate messaging bills and it tends to feel like this is a little bit of a messaging bill.

And so I'd say, we let's let the sports folks deal wth it.

Katie: --really emotional conversation on the Hill.

I mean with that Representative Burkland talking about this needs to prepare-- preserve fairness in women's sports but on the other side, Troy Williams from Equality Utah talks about how this could really harm the LGBT community, transgender community, make them feel excluded from things that regular like other people get to enjoy like high school sports.

And so, I think if they're gonna tackle this it's gonna be a really fraught issue.

Jason: Spencer, to your point, we have some of our elected officials that are even talking about this at the federal level.

Mitt Romney seems to agree with the principles, so does Mike Lee, but there is the other side that we're just getting too as well, which is some of the business community.

For example, about the message this sends apart from the policy.

'Cause some of these like the NCAA for example might have some things to say about what they're what they're willing to do in the state.

Is this true or is it--?

Spencer: No, I agree 100%.

I just feel like in the world of politics, I think our elected officials should know what they have the knowledge to deal with and what they don't have the knowledge to deal with.

And this is one of those areas, where we have a lot of seasoned professionals who deal with this every day and, you know, we as Republicans, we like to say government is best which is closest to the people.

This is one of those things which I think should be dealt with closest to the people, which are the Utah High School Student Activities Association deals with all of this all the time.

And how do you use this as a fairness issue?

I mean, we have a lot of women who want to play football for example on the High School football team.

I think the first field goal was kicked by a female NFL player.

I-- check me if that's-- my area is not sports, but you know where do you draw the line?

When does government interference in these kinds of things end and begin?

And I think we oughta stick with public policy at the local level-- at these local levels so.

Jason: All right.

Kate: I would agree with Spencer that, you know, the expertise to deal with this, the medical relevance to deal with this, it may not rest in the legislature, in the, you know, we're almost to the halfway mark.

So you know in the in the 20 or so plus days they've got to deal with this do we have the medical expertise to wade into this very deep issue?

Whereas these other sporting organizations do have that-- those medical resources and have already started that research and have set levels.

Is this the right thing for the state of Utah to wade into?

Spencer: We need to bolster a society that believes in facts and let's experts deal with things.

We saw this at the very beginning of the pandemic and I think, you know, while there was a role for public policy and lawmakers and politicians to be involved in I think largely we missed the boat in the very beginning because we didn't rely solely on experts and we probably could have curved or stemmed the tide in the very beginning had we listened to experts.

And this is one of those areas I feel that's important.

I mean, we were-- how many more times can you undermine institutions that base things on fact?

And this is one of those areas I believe we should stick to experts and I think that's best handled at that level.

Jason: Before I leave the legislative session, I just have to have one it's a quick one for you, alright?

Is Dixie State University gonna get a name change?

Alright, just a vote, Kate, went through the House say yes.

What do you all think just really quick is gonna change?

Spencer: Yes.

Jason: Kate.

Kate: Ooh, you know, there's a little hold up in the Senate.

I think that perhaps an agreement can be reached there.

I think it's personal my personal opinion is that it's probably time for that change to happen and I think it hurts the alumni and the current students and their ability to go on to another degrees and to have people question their resume.

So I hope we're ready to do it but I think it's still got a little bit of a hurdle to get through.

Katie: Speaker Wilson came up pretty early as a supporter in naming that change.

We do see some Senate leadership kinda bein' a little bit more we need to discuss this more, the process needs to play out.

Spencer: The Senate did, The senate is the problem as always.

The Senates a little more traditional but I think they made an amendment representative last made an amendment to call it the Dixie campus.

This has bigger implications quite frankly, because once this happens, you know, what do they do with the Red rock that says Dixie on the side of it?

Do we get a sharpie and go try to find the red that matches it and paint it out so.

But the compromise of Dixie campus, I think is something that, you know, I didn't like it when they changed the state song from Utah, We Love Thee to the new Kurt Bester, you know, version.

So I'm kind of a traditionalist in that but this is one that needs to change.

Katie: You know, I went to Dixie and I was there through their whole identity crisis early on when they well they changed from college to university.

That was an opportunity to change the name and they didn't.

But we're seeing because it's come back as a conversation.

It's painful again.

And so, I mean I think the question is if they don't do it are they gonna have to grapple with this issue down the road and is it gonna be even more painful?

Spencer: It's not going away.

Jason: It is definitely not but I'll tell you what is back, Kate, redistricting, I know our elected officials love this.

Just really quickly want to talk about this.

We have our newly appointed members of the Redistricting Commission.

Something the voters voted on.

They want to put these in place.

Tell us a little bit about the makeup of it and what their timelines are because they have to start almost immediately putting together some new district lines.

Kate: Yeah, that is true and we have a big hang up and that hang up is we don't have the data yet.

You know, the census was delayed the we don't know when they'll actually have the raw numbers to work with but they're gonna start I think the process in order to meet those timelines so that they can adopt those new district maps.

You know, we had a ballot issue that passed two years ago that has set up a new Independent Redistricting Commission.

There were people that were nominated from the State House, the State Senate, the governor, and so we have this new group are gonna try out this new way.

There will also be a legislative committee that will that will move this process as well in adjusting these maps.

And there are congressional maps, our school board maps, our legislative maps.

You know personally my home county of Davis County has been divided between two congressional districts.

We're half in the first and half in the second congressional district.

I think, you know, that does a disservice to my community to be divided in that way.

So I'm looking forward to sharing my thoughts with both the Legislative Group and the Independent Group on what's important in terms of representation for my community.

Jason: So Spencer, are we gonna see big changes?

I mean, you've run campaigns.

You've worked on these things with these members.

Spencer: I will tell you that the thing I'm most heartened by is that the legislature left in place.

It's an Advisory Commission.

They'll come back with some ideas, but I am so impressed with the seriousness with which they made the appointments.

They are-- it's a a solid rock star group of seven people from the chair all the way down to the Republican appointments and the Democrat appointments.

So it's going to have some gravitas as it makes its presentation to the Redistricting Committee and Kate, I would argue you're better served by having two Congress persons because you now have to people.

You have two votes for Bountiful City.

Kate: In some ways, yes, but in some ways you know we are paired with communities that are far off the-- and you know we have a lot more in common I would say in Davis County with Beaver County in Southern Davis County, where I'm at and Bountiful than we might have with, you know, folks in Iron County, or-- Spencer: But this-- this just shows you how fraught redistricting is because everybody's got an opinion on how it should be done.

Kate has her opinion.

I have my opinion.

Katie will have hers.

You'll have yours.

So it is a difficult process.

The House and Senate Chair, Paul Ray in the House and Scott Sandal in the Senate.

If anything you could say that the boundaries were drawn up for northern Utah.

Jason: Okay, we'll watch that 'cause we have a chance to participate.

We'll have seven public meetings by August.

People will be able to participate.

They will submit our maps.

We'll see what the legislature does with those and a lot of elected officials are watching.

You know maybe somebody will want to jump in to see what those those boundaries look like.

Really quickly before we leave, Katie, a lot happening in Washington D.C. right now with the Republican Party tryin' to take care of its own members in some way or not as the case may be.

But talk about what's happening in terms of the impeachment proceedings and how that's relating to members of the own Republican body that maybe are being disciplined by the other side.

Katie: Well, we're gonna have to see.

We saw our own senators, Mike Lee and Mitt Romney disagree on whether the impeachment proceedings are constitutional.

So here even in Utah we're seeing divisive opinions about what to do with former President Donald Trump.

And so I think it'll be interesting to see what happens.

I think nationwide Democrats are kinda starting on this kinda this point where they have to decide if they really want to be truly bipartisan or if, you know, if they look toward Covid relief.

Are they gonna work with Republicans who have brought forth maybe a smaller package than what Biden wants.

And so, it'll be interesting to see what happens.

Spencer: We saw the vice president cast and I don't know if you've been paying attention to the number of votes, but there have been a lot of tight votes that have failed.

Vice President cast a vote on budget reconciliation, which is how they're going to do the Covid relief and it really is determining whether or not there's going to be bipartisan support.

And I take my cue on the impeachment from the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

If he's unwilling to come over and be and sit in the chair to preside over the trial it says a lot and he's not.

Its not-- in my mind, he really is making a statement there.

Jason: Spencer, in our last 30 seconds here you've worked in Washington D.C. Are there any signs that there's some kind of bridge being built right here because what people thought might happen after the election?

Spencer: You know sadly I think that the disarray of the Republican party's in is going to last for another year or so but you can't sustain it when you have a group of 10 senators that are trying to compromise with the Democrats and the other senators that are not so.

Jason: Alright, thank you for your insight, so helpful.

Can't wait to happens during this legislative session.

And thank you for watching "The Hinckley Report."

This show is also available as a podcast on PBSUtah.org/HinckleyReport or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you for being with us.

We'll see you next week.

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