Tonight a final face off.

Roger McLean and Josh Siegel, who will be the next leader of Lehigh County government.

We'll explore the issues, hear directly from the candidates themselves, and find out their visions for the future in this 2025 Lehigh County Executive debate.

Lehigh Valley Public Media brings you this special presentation, and it starts right now.

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to this debate between the Republican and Democratic candidates for Lehigh County Executive.

I'm Tom Shortall, politics reporter at Lehigh Valley News.com.

And I'm Megan Frank, host of 91.3 Wvas, All Things Considered.

For the next hour, the candidates will answer questions from Tom and myself and from each other.

We are live from the Universe Public Media Center in Bethlehem.

This forum is airing on PBS 39 and 91.3 VR.

It can be also be found streaming on Lehigh Valley News.com and the PBS 39 YouTube channel.

At the conclusion of tonight's televised debate.

We'll move things over to PBS 30 Nine's YouTube channel for an extra Q&A session with our candidates.

If you have a question, drop it in the chat.

We might use it.

You can join us there and be sure to subscribe to the PBS 39 YouTube channel.

Let's meet the two candidates on the ballot in the November election.

Democrat Josh Siegel is a state representative from Allentown who has served on Allentown City Council and the Allentown School Board.

Republican Roger McLean is a former Allentown police chief and city council president.

He worked ten years in the Lehigh County DA's office.

Upon retiring from the police department.

Now, before we begin a note, the candidates have not seen the questions.

Journalists from Lehigh Valley Public Media prepared them.

Mr.

McClean, before the debate, we flipped a coin.

You'll lead us off with your opening statement.

You have one minute.

Thank you.

First of all, I'd like to thank you for hosting this event.

It's always a pleasure to be here at channel 39.

My name is Roger McClean.

As you heard, I was the retired police chief.

I spent 40 years on the Allentown Police Department.

Born and raised in Allentown.

My goal when I'm.

When I leave as a county executive is to make sure that Lehigh County is a better place than when I walked in.

That's my goal.

Where wherever I, wherever I do anything.

I'm the proud father of six grown children, three males, three females.

And I have, six beautiful little granddaughters.

I'm sorry, three beautiful little granddaughters also.

I, I'm very proud of the fact that at my tenure as police chief, part, part one, crimes, which are the major crimes fell 27% over the eight years that I was police chief.

And we did that in a police department that had been decimated with retirements.

So, it was a lot of hard work by police officers on the street, and I'm very proud of them for what they did.

And, for what we accomplished during my tenure.

Thank you, Mr.

McLean.

Mr.

Siegel, your one minute for your opening statement.

Thank you.

Tom.

And I also want to extend my gratitude for Lehigh Valley News for putting together this third and final forum.

I just want to clarify, I did not serve in the Allentown School District school board.

I was on city council as well as a state representative where I serve now.

I'm running because I think we here in Lehigh County and frankly, in this Commonwealth and this country need a new generation of leadership.

I think we need leaders who act boldly and decisively and govern with a sense of urgency to tackle the challenges that people are facing and their day to day lives.

If you're like me, I think you're frankly frustrated and disaffected by both political parties and the rancor we see in DC.

I think you're angry at a political process that's broken and seems to be unresponsive to the needs of the people, and I think here in our own backyard, we should aspire to build a new politics that's about answers and not animosity, solutions and not scapegoats.

I'm running on one Lehigh.

My vision for a county that doesn't leave anybody behind, where everybody matters and we make a valley we can all afford.

I think we need to address the challenges of today the housing affordability crisis, regional housing, police and fire, making sure that we protect mental health, addiction services in our county owned Cedar Brook, and most importantly, pushing back on the chaos, corruption and cruelty that we see in DC that will adversely affect our local services.

Thank you, Mr.

Siegel.

We'll begin with each candidate answering a few questions directed specifically to them.

There are no rebuttals here.

You'll have one minute to answer.

Mr.

Siegel, the first question is for you.

While you've worked in county and state government, you've never managed more than a handful of employees.

So what makes you ready to step in and lead the 2200 people who work for Lehigh County government?

Well, as I believe, I don't think any job is a one person job, and I think any good leader understands what they do and don't know.

And I think anybody who's ever worked at the county understands that the executive's role is also one about delegation, and I have every intention of leaning on a strong and competent cabinet of folks who can advise me in the areas where I may not have as much experience.

But I will also say that experience is one thing, but energy and vision is another.

It's one thing to know how the gears of government work.

It's another to not be able to use them to the benefit of the people.

And I believe that that's what I bring to the table, is I will build a team around me of capable and competent bureaucrats, a strong cabinet that will help me compensate for my lack of experience in terms of administration.

But it will also have the energy and vision to make sure that that team has strategies and goals that they can actually execute on.

If you have no vision, if you have no plan, if you're leading a rudderless ship, it doesn't matter how many years of experience you have, if you're not moving the county forward towards the goal of more affordable housing, better public safety, safer neighborhoods, public spaces and amenities and assets.

Without vision, experience means nothing.

Thank you, Mr.

Siegel.

Mr.

McClean, your first question.

You have not proposed any specific policy changes on the campaign trail, saying you'll evaluate county operations once in office, but it's a sprawling bureaucracy with a half billion dollar budget.

How long will it take you to get up to speed if you win?

I plan on doing it on day one.

Getting up to speed up.

Starting.

I've done it in the police department.

We built a coalition that's as Mr.

Siegel just said.

I had a good, strong team that helped me.

I didn't I didn't bring the crime down by myself 27%.

It was a team that we worked together with, and that's what I'm going to do with the county.

I'm going to look at all the departments, see what's running, running efficiently, see what's not running efficiently, or are we getting the best bang for the buck on on these programs that are, that are being run by the county?

And is there any way we can improve on those programs to to make them better and more efficient?

Thank you, Mr.

Siegel.

Thank you, Mr.

McLean.

Mr.

Siegel.

My apologies.

Mr.

Siegel, in the past five years, you've run for Allentown City Council, state representative, and now county executive.

Why should voters believe you are committed to this job?

For one, I make this solemn promise and vow that I will serve my full four years and stand for election and reelection.

I have no intention of using this as a springboard for Congress in 2028 or 2030.

I'm committed to the local, I've said on the campaign trail that I believe the local is our salvation, that in this era of profound gridlock and dysfunction in DC and Harrisburg, local government, in my opinion, is the last place where I think we can make a deeply tangible and lasting impact.

And it's true that I have run for multiple offices, but I would say, as I've been very fortunate and privileged by voters to move up the ranks, if you will.

I was elected to city council in 2019 at the age of 25.

I was, at the time, the youngest city council member to ever serve in Allentown.

A few short years later, when an open house seat in Allentown was created as a result of redistricting, I thought it was prudent that somebody who was experienced, energetic and ready to lead on day one in Harrisburg step up to run for that seat so that we had three effective state legislators in Harrisburg.

I've always thrown myself into the fold when I believe that my vision, my energy, and my ideas are at the right moment to meet the moment and make change.

Thank you, Mr.

Siegel.

Mr.

McLean.

There have been whispers within your own party about a lack of urgency in your campaign.

In a recent interview, you said you might not have even run if Mr.

Siegel was not on the ballot.

How committed are you to the demanding job of county executive?

I'm 100% committed.

I, I retired in May of last year.

I decided to run when I, when I found out that Josh Siegel was running.

I felt that we needed some choices.

And here and the Republican Party at that time didn't have anybody to run for, for the office.

I'm committed to Allentown, to Lehigh County.

I'm born and raised here.

I'm a lifelong resident.

I fought for 40 years on the police department, and in ten years working for the district attorney's office to make out, make sure Allentown is a safe place and a good place to live and a better place to live once I'm done.

Thank you, Mr.

McLean.

Mr.

Siegel.

Your opponents have criticized you as an extremist and a flip flopper.

And while you have voted to defund police, you were a vocal supporter of the George Floyd protests and gave then mayor Ray O'Connell's personal phone number to angry protesters.

Have you demonstrated the temperament to be an effective leader in a region known for its bipartisanship?

Look, I would say, first off, in the interest of bipartisanship, I think I've built a bipartisan coalition.

The Republican district attorney, Gavin, all I had is backed my candidacy for county executive, in part because I have a strong public safety platform.

What I will say is, I think any leader or politician who holds themself up is perfect or flawless, or having never made a single mistake in the course of their career is being dishonest.

I think as in anything in life, it's about growth and acknowledgment and understanding.

I will say I have publicly, on many occasions apologize to the mayor and he has forgiven me.

And to this day, we remain friends and communicate regularly.

What I believe is that I have deeply matured, and I would say that my conduct during the course of the George Floyd Floyd protests have been grossly mischaracterized.

I don't think marching for Black Lives Matter or marching for racial justice in any way at all be characterized as anti-police.

They're not the same thing.

And I will add to that that I have never, as my opponents have tried to characterize me, defund, did anything.

I voted for two city council budgets that added $76 million to the Allentown police budget.

And in Harrisburg, I've been a vocal, proponent of funding more police officers.

I think this is a common Republican strawman tactic where you create a false opponent to run against when you stand for nothing yourself.

Thank you, Mr.

Siegel.

Mr.

McClean, your final question.

You led the Allentown Police Department for years.

Officers that work for you are now facing serious criminal charges for allegations of sexual misconduct.

Why should voters believe that you are up to leading a county government that will be that will be beyond reproach?

Well, first of all, those allegations didn't come to light till after I was after I retired.

Any allegations of misconduct from police officers when I was chief was thoroughly investigated.

And if an officer deserved discipline, he was disciplined.

We did it on every.

On every occasion when I was a captain.

We actually because it was an allegation against the police officer, we actually got a wiretap and tapped the the officer's cruiser car to prove the case.

So any allegations that were made while I was chief were thoroughly investigated.

These allegations did not come to light until probably close to 2018, which was five years after I retired.

If they would have come to light when I was chief, they would have been investigated and handled.

Thank you, Mr.

McLean.

That's it for first round.

Thank you both for the next section.

The questions will.

You'll both have, excuse me for the next questions.

You'll both have a minute to answer.

If you want to rebut or add something, you can just signal us, but we know you have something to add.

You'll have 30s for rebuttals.

Megan, why don't you lead us off?

Mr.

McLean, perhaps the executive's most important job is serving on the Board of Elections.

You would have enormous say over matters like dropboxes, voting machines and ballot curing policies.

What, if any, changes would you make to the county's election practices?

I've said it several times that I would.

I would be in favor of several drop boxes.

I wouldn't be in favor of an unlimited amount of drop boxes, but my proposal would be for one in the northern part of the county, one in the southern part of the county, one in the eastern part of the county, and one in the western part of the county.

And that those drop boxes would have cameras be monitored by cameras, so that in case there were allegations, we could pull the pull the video and investigate that those allegations and make sure that nothing did occur.

That wasn't supposed to happen.

Thank you, Mr.

McLean.

Mr.

Siegel, what if what, if any, changes would you make to how Lehigh County conducts elections?

Thank you.

Let me first start by saying that I think the administration of elections is perhaps the most solemn and important responsibility that county government is imbued with.

We are tasked not only with making sure that every lawful and legal voter can cast a ballot and register their discontent, but we are also the chief advocates and champions of the Democratic process itself, and I think this is perhaps one of the strongest contrasts between myself and my opponent.

I don't believe the idea that to too much democracy is a bad thing.

I think we live in an era when it's no secret that this administration is attempting to cast endless dispersions on the elections process, questioning the integrity and legitimacy of mail in ballots, openly talking about Dropboxes as a source of fraud when nothing could be further from the truth.

So my belief is that we should be expanding access to the ballot box in Lehigh County.

I think we need more safe and secure Dropboxes nobody is in favor of putting them in random places without sort of any sort of security.

I think we need to make sure that we defend the integrity of mail in ballots and get them out in a timely fashion.

And I also believe that we need a mobile ballot curing machine like they have in Montgomery County, where we come to voters and help them fix their ballots.

I believe everyone to be able to cast a ballot, and we should be encouraging as many people to do so.

Mr.

McClean, you wanted a rebuttal?

Yeah, I did.

Very briefly.

I just wanted to say that I have been when I've been talking to groups, I've been pushing for the for the mail in ballots for, for people to take advantage of that.

It's something that the Republican Party has not taken advantage of as fully as the Democrat Party.

And I've been pushing it on.

When I talk to people.

So, Mr.

Siegel, very briefly, I would just say it's not enough to push it.

And I would argue it's not what Roger was saying in the course of the primary, when he was very vocally opposed to the existence of mail in ballots, and said that he wished we would go back to straight in-person voting and essentially get rid of them.

But I would argue it's not enough.

We have to be vociferous champions of democracy.

We have to push back on the lies, the misinformation and the deceit that is being spread by this administration about our elections process.

That is how you make sure people believe fully that their vote will be counted and that their democracy will not be threatened.

Okay, we're going to move on for now.

Next topic will, Mr.

Siegel, you'll start with this is about ice detainment.

Many liberal activists are not happy that county officials allow Ice agents to enter the Lehigh County courthouse without a warrant.

At the same time, many conservatives are unhappy that Lehigh County requires Ice to present a warrant before it will turn over an inmate into its custody.

Is the county handling this correctly or should something be changed?

I will say I support fully the county's current policy as it relates to the prison, that we require a judicial warrant to honor any given Ice detainer.

I think that as we've established and Roger has agreed, this protects us from liability, but I think we need to take some further steps.

I will say that the county's current policy around the courthouse, and I've had extensive conversations with the district attorney around this.

The president, judge and the district attorney.

I think it put forth a good policy to reasonably manage the flow of Ice agents in and out of the courthouse.

We have to understand that they do operate under a different system.

Their detainer is very different and does allow them to access to public places.

But I do think the county should go further in stepping out and condemning some of the behavior that we've seen from Ice.

We've seen the horrific stories all around the country of children as young as eight being essentially deported, some of them with cancer and serious chronic ailments.

We just saw in Chicago, a 15 year old girl ripped out of her car in her own yard.

I think the county should make clear to things that it will never participate in.

287 G, which is the process by which we deputize our sheriffs to take part in immigration raids.

I think it's deeply a moral and ethical and dangerous.

And I think we should make clear that all county employees, as they have in Montgomery County, will not coordinate with Ice without a judicial warrant.

Thank you, Mr.

Siegel.

Mr.

McLean, should the county rethink any of its Ice policies?

My short answer to that would be no.

Again, the president, judge, the district attorney and the sheriff met, and they they're the ones who put out the policy for dealing with ice, interactions within the county.

I think it's a it's a good policy, and I would not change anything on it.

Thank you.

Mr.

McLean, we're going to stay with you.

Your opponent wants to explore creating a countywide police department that would exclude Allentown in Bethlehem.

He's on record saying he's.

He would like to see it run as a county operation with a police commissioner serving on the executive's cabinet.

Is that an idea that you would support?

I would support regional housing police if the municipalities within Lehigh County wanted it.

That's not that's not something for the county executive to say.

Okay.

In February, we're going to sit down and we're going to start and police department, each and every municipality within the within the county has to decide whether they want to regionalize their police and or whether they don't.

I've talked to several already that, that, that say they're against it and they're not for it.

I would be a little leery.

Mr.

Siegel says he's changed, but he was the one marching down Hamilton Street with the people yelling F the police, too.

So, I would be a little leery of having the county executive if it would be Mr.

Siegel in charge of the police.

If it were me, I'd have no problem.

All right.

Mr.

Siegel, you've argued that your proposal would create savings for most Lehigh County communities, but creating a regional police department would also require local townships and boroughs, as Mr.

McLean just acknowledged to give up some of their control.

Plus, many communities without police right now would see their costs increase.

How would you intend to persuade local leaders to consider your plan?

Look, Tom, when you and I sat down a few weeks ago for an interview, I said that my philosophy of leadership is that it's not about low hanging fruit or the path of least resistance.

And this is perhaps, once again, a distinct difference between myself and my opponent.

I said that leadership is characterized by urgency, boldness, and decisiveness.

And I am someone who believes the power of leadership to go out and make things happen.

There's no doubt that there will be initial opposition or difficulty, but I believe that the regionalization of police and fire is one of financial and economic necessity for many of our communities.

We've seen it in a mass where they've had double digit tax increases.

Many of our smaller boroughs and townships are exhausting their ability of their local tax base to pay for critical local services.

I've long believed that this is the that countywide broadband tax base is the most efficient and effective way to deliver that service, and the county's own feasibility study determined that the regional police force you described and that I support, would produce roughly 13% savings for the municipalities that currently have their own police department.

And what I will say is, in communities like Lower Macungie, there is great concern amongst residents about the response time and the quality because they are relying on state police.

You have to make the case, but I believe it's the right thing to do.

It's the right thing to do.

Mr.

McClean a rebuttal.

Yeah, I was I was part of that study and those figures would have to be updated because that was a ten year old study.

So everything in there has to be updated.

I just want to add that I don't know what study Mr.

McClean is referring to, but I have the more recent study that the county commissioners have authorized in the last 3 or 4 years.

So those are up to date numbers.

The 13% savings, the countywide force minus Allentown and Bethlehem.

So, maybe those numbers that you've seen are older.

But I will tell you, there's been a very recent feasibility study done that I've read and pored over.

And those savings are there.

They will materialize.

Thank you, Mr.

Siegel.

Our next questions regard farm preservation.

Mr.

Siegel, Lehigh County commissioners signed off on a long term plan this summer that calls on them to borrow $11.5 million in 2028 to preserve more than three square miles of farmland in the county.

That's on top of the 400 properties and 44mi² of farmland that the county has already preserved.

Are you on board with this plan to take on debt to preserve more land?

And is there a point where you'd say enough is enough?

Well, look, I think Lehigh County is one of the leading counties in the Commonwealth, and farmland preservation.

We're fourth in total acreage.

Overall, I want to continue that legacy.

In that spirit, I think it's important that open space in that green space is critical.

I think, to keeping our taxes stable and predictable, making sure that we don't over develop.

But I also think and part of my platform is about smart strategic growth.

Farmland preservation alone is only one part of the issue.

The other challenge we have is how do we accommodate the 100,000 additional residents that are going to move here in the next 30 years?

That's the estimated population growth by the end of 2050, as according to the Lehigh Valley Planning Commission.

So, fully in support of farmland preservation, I think this administration has done a great job maintaining that commitment in that record.

I have no aversions to continuing that my administration will be fully committed to farmland preservation, but I would argue it's only one half of the battle.

And perhaps I think the bigger battle and the bigger challenge that we face is figuring out how to manage and accommodate all of the growth that's coming in.

If we want to protect and preserve our farmland, we have to be smarter and more strategic about how we densify our communities and build more walkable, mixed use neighborhoods.

Thank you, Mr.

Siegel.

Mr.

McLean, should the county continue to borrow money to fund its farmland preservation efforts?

Short answer yes.

A little bit more explanation to that.

Once the farmland is gone, you can't get it back.

So is it worth investing in it now or not being able to invest in it later when it's too late?

So it all depends on the budget.

If the commissioners voted for it, I'm not going to second guess them because I'm I'm for farmland preservation myself.

I'd like once it's gone, you can't get it back.

Thank you.

The next set of questions is about homelessness.

Mr.

McLean, the county and Allentown freed up funding to open the YMCA warming shelter a few months early this year in an effort to address homelessness in the region.

Is this just a Band-Aid, and what strategy will your administration propose to deal with this persistent issue?

It's a very persistent issue.

This was an issue when I started on the police department back in 1974, and it's now 2025, and we're still dealing with the homeless issue.

Unfortunately, there are some people that are not going to go in time into housing, but I think we need to do the best.

We have to work obviously with the with the county, with the social service agencies, with the hospitals.

They're doing outreach also to try and get people off the streets and into into some sort of shelters.

I think we have to continue to work on it.

I don't think we throw up our hands and say there's some people that don't want to go into housing, so we just give up.

We need to do whatever we can provide whatever resources we have.

And the county is is active in that also.

And I would continue to do that.

Thank you, Mr.

McLean.

Mr.

Siegel, how should Lehigh County address the issue of homelessness?

I actually think this is an area where the county has been sort of derelict in its duty and stepped back from a lot of responsibilities.

When I was on Allentown City Council, one of the frequent conversations was us looking to the county to take more action because it is the human service provider.

I look at my homeless strategy in two different tracks.

One is prevention.

I think one of the things Lehigh County needs to step up to the plate to do is create a right to counsel program or an eviction diversion program, similar to what they have in Philadelphia.

It's unknown to most folks, but it's the one place where we don't guarantee any form of legal representation.

We all know that if you can't afford, a lawyer, public defenders are provided to you.

But when you are in eviction proceedings, most tenants lack legal protection, which makes evictions all the more likely.

By providing legal protection or right to counsel, we can make sure that we forestall or otherwise prevent evictions before people become homeless in the first place, and that is the most cost effective way to prevent homelessness.

The second issue is, again, the housing shortage.

There is a strong connection between shortage of housing affordability, housing crisis and the number of folks who are on our streets.

There are a number of individuals, in fact, a significant percentage, who are employed and homeless.

So by building more affordable housing, we can also reduce the number of unsheltered folks in Lehigh County.

We'll tackle more of the overall overall affordability of housing in the region later up right now.

Mr.

Siegel, I'd like to ask you about Cedar Brook.

The the county owned nursing home is an expensive service that isn't mandated by the state.

Many counties have already sold their facilities.

If Medicaid funding gets tight, as some suggest, it will.

Would you would you consider selling the nursing home?

And if not, how do you propose funding if there's less state and federal support?

First and foremost, the answer is absolutely not on my watch.

I will never permit Cedar Brook to be sold off to private equity or a private company.

We've seen many counties in this Commonwealth commit that sin, and all it does is put patients profit before patients and everyone suffers.

Cedar Brook has been around since 1844.

That's an extraordinarily long commitment that this county has made to our senior citizens.

And I've said from the very beginning of this campaign that the disastrous effects of the big, beautiful bill, the trillion dollars in cuts to Medicaid and Snap are going to filter down to the county.

And the frank answer to you is it is going to take courage and political willpower, because there is going to come a point where Lehigh County is going to have to step up to the plate and raise revenue to make sure that that nursing home, that our nursing home doesn't shutter.

It's not a choice of if or when or yes or no or whether you want to do it or not.

It is a question of whether or not we are going to ensure Cedar Brook exists for future generations of senior citizens, or if this administration or the next administration is when that promise sunsets under me, I will not allow that to happen.

And I recognize the frank reality of what this administration has done to county governments.

And so we are going to have to be prepared to step up to the plate and make that difficult decision.

But our seniors will be better because of it.

Thank you, Mr.

Siegel.

Mr.

McLean, how would you keep Cedar Brook working as a county operation if Medicaid funding does get cut?

That's where you have to sit down and you have to you have to get with your your team, your directors, and you have to figure out a way.

Now I'm against getting rid of Cedar Brook.

I would fund it.

I would find a way to do it.

And this is where this is part of the process that you have to go through when you're dealing with budgets.

You have to see with what where do we want to spend the money here?

Do we want to spend the money here?

What are our priorities in dealing with the budget?

Cedar Brook would be a priority, priority budget for me, and especially with the with the additions and the, upgrading that there that they're, that they're doing, it's going to be much better for the residents.

Thank you.

Mr.

Siegel, you want to add something?

I just want to add, as I've emphasized, occur over the course of time, 90% of our county budget is personnel.

So when it comes to the conversation around shifting resources or finding savings, I want to be very frank.

We are a frugal operation.

Tim Reeves, our CFO, has been an extraordinarily adept and gifted, chief financial officer.

We run on a barebones budget.

We are already, as a county, doing more with less.

And I want to be abundantly clear, because I think we owe that honesty to voters that those Medicaid cuts.

It's not a question of if they're going to materialize.

They've been done to us.

Those unfunded mandates are coming down to us whether we like it or not.

And there isn't money in the budget to shift around.

It will come down to the political courage and the willpower of the next executive as to whether or not they're going to fill the gaps that that cut has created.

Thank you.

Next question.

That's kind of what I said we would find the money with if we had to shift that, we'd have to shift it, but we would find the money to keep cedar broken.

I just want to pause it.

I don't know what find the money means.

What I'm trying to say is 90% of the budget is people.

So if you start shifting money around, it means shifting around personnel.

It means moving or potentially liquidating departments, firing employees to move money to produce some sort of savings that is not a I think, a responsible or practical strategy like this is the part where substance matters, right?

This is where policy fluency, as someone who worked in county government for five years and two and a half years in the county comptroller's office, I am acutely aware of the limitations of our budget and more aware of how little there is to move around with that.

That's where commitment comes in, Mr.

Siegel.

That's where commitment comes in, which is what I said.

Moving on.

I'd like to address, taxes.

Representative Siegel, you've proposed creating a 1% countywide sales tax, saying you would allow commissioners to significantly lower property taxes, but that plan would require buy in from the General Assembly.

And frankly, you guys can't even pass your own budget right now.

Is this a realistic plan?

And wouldn't it disproportionately, disproportionately affect low income households?

It's a great question.

Let me answer it in three tiers.

So for one, when it comes to county finances, I think I've put forward a very comprehensive plan.

As I've said, a tax increase is the absolute last possible option and the last option, last, optimal decision.

I've said that in the morning call and I've said that repeatedly.

My first plan is to find the very minimal savings internally that I think we can find, which is the $4 million a year in employee, health care costs that I think we could reduce by pegging the cost of our health care to Medicare.

I also talked about the idea of reaching a pilot agreement with our local nonprofits, particularly our hospitals and our higher education institutions like they have in Providence, Rhode Island and Pittsburgh, where those institutions contribute millions towards achieving laudable goals here in Lehigh County.

And as I've said from the very beginning, because of the reality of that trillion dollars in cuts, we know that it is inevitable that we are going to have to step up to the plate.

And all I have said from the beginning is we should entertain ways to protect our senior citizens from property tax increases because of the carve outs in the sales tax in the state, food and clothing are exempt.

We could actually do a one third property tax reduction here in Lehigh County for our hard for our senior citizens on a fixed income, and I think that would be a huge savings.

Thank you, Mr.

Siegel, to cut you off there.

Mr.

McClean, what is your tax policy?

The federal government has has been cutting spending, and many observers believe this will eventually hamstring local governments.

How will you respond if Lehigh County receives less funding to provide mandated services?

Well, I also the tax increase would be the last resort for me.

If if that comes, then we have to then we have to cross that bridge when, when we come to it.

But we need to be prepared ahead of time in case it does happen.

I'm not so sure that all these doom and gloom scenarios are going to happen.

I'm hoping that they don't.

I'm hoping that cooler heads prevail.

I'm hoping that Congress works together, and comes up with a plan.

But the last worst case scenario would be a tax increase.

But I am against that.

I would do whatever I can in any way, shape or form to avoid that.

Mr.

Siegel?

Some.

That.

Yeah.

One I don't think you build budgets on a prayer and a wish.

The United States Congress has cut $1 trillion from Medicaid and Snap.

They've done that.

They're not going to undo it.

And even if we flip the House in 2026, we're a long way off from that damage ever being rectified.

So the reality is, whether my opponent wants to pretend that Congress is going to pull a rabbit out of its head or recognize the fault of its decisions, that those cuts, that harm, that pain is coming.

So we are inevitably eventually going to have to step up to the plate in some form or fashion.

And I agree, tax increase is the absolute last possible resort.

But I'm actually standing here with a clear cut three tiered strategy that would find additional savings in the county, bring in new money from nonprofit partners, and could potentially reduce property taxes by up to a third for our seniors.

Thank you, Mr.

Siegel.

Mr.

McLean.

Real quick, a quick rebuttal.

First of all, if the Comptroller has identified a $4 million savings, he should have brought that forward and not have not given it to Mr.

Siegel as a campaign platform.

Second of all, he, Mr.

Siegel had said previously that in Allegheny County they did a 1% sales tax and that it reduced property taxes.

If you go on and look, Allegheny County is looking at a 36% property tax increase for 2026.

We need to move on now.

But thank you both.

We'll continue the 2025 Lehigh County Executive Debate, hosted and organized by Lehigh Valley Public Media.

This program is streaming and being broadcast live on PBS 39.

It's also being simulcast on our radio station, 91.3 VR.

You can join us later tonight on the PBS 39 YouTube channel for a special, extended version of the debate with the candidates.

There's lots of other content, election related and otherwise, on the PBS 39 YouTube channel, so be sure to subscribe and stay on top of it.

Remember, the election is Tuesday, November 4th.

Residents can vote in person on Election day or by mail.

The polls are open from 7 a.m.

to 8 p.m.. The deadline to register to vote in the election is the coming.

Is this coming Monday, October 20th.

The last day to apply for a mail in ballot is Tuesday, October 28th.

All right, candidates, we're going to switch things up and allow you to ask the questions.

Taking turns.

You'll ask your opponent three questions.

They'll have one minute to respond.

Mr.

McLean, you'll start your first question for Mr.

Siegel.

Okay.

Thank you.

Mr.

Siegel, your your fliers have said that crime was rampant when I was the chief.

All kinds of things were going on.

The true fact of the matter is that from 2006 to 2013, that was my tenure as chief crime, actually, part one crimes, the most serious crimes actually fell 27%.

How do you rectify that?

Well, I actually think, when you this is a, I think a common statistical trick.

If you wrap everything in one larger sort of category, you can give the illusion that some serious crimes have gone down.

I'll actually talk about the things that my mailer says, particularly rapes, homicides and robberies.

And let's talk about your tenure as chief when there were homicides in 2007, a year after Roger McLean became chief and Allentown, there were 2121 homicides in Allentown.

That's 425% of the homicides we had in 2024, when there were just four.

And Rogers in 2012, one year before Rogers tenure as chief, came to a conclusion, there were 15 homicides.

That's 275% of the number of homicides we had in Allentown in 2024.

There were robberies under Roger that were historic and record, which is what my ad and my mailer had said.

In 2024.

We had 68 robberies in the city of Allentown.

In 2012, when Roger was chief, there were 374.

That's a 450% over, overage over what we had in 2024.

And we'll talk about rapes, which is perhaps one of the most alarming crimes, one of the most scary things for residents.

In 2013, there were 59.

Or in 2013 there were 59 rapes.

In Allentown, we had 33.

In 2024.

That's a 78% increase.

That's your time.

So I thought it was a minute, I apologize, there was a clock mishap.

I apologize my that's my apologies.

Mr.

Siegel, your first question for Mister McLean.

Yeah.

Roger, I have, given you multiple opportunities at the last few debates.

And as our, as our moderators have indicated, the administration of elections is very important here in Lehigh County.

And since you continuously talk about election security, I just want to hear you say the following tonight.

This is my question to you.

Can you say that in 2020, Joe Biden was legitimately and lawfully elected president, United States, there was not widespread or rampant voter fraud, and that it is your party that is contributing to the lack of faith and integrity of our elections by spreading election denialism.

I'm not going to talk about the 2020 election.

We talked about the last election in Lehigh County, and I said I did.

The election in Lehigh County was fair.

I'm not going back.

You you keep wanting to turn this into Trump and Biden.

This isn't a debate about Trump and Biden.

They're going to be on before we're before we're done as executive.

And also, just to go real quick back to these statistics.

They've continued to go down, but they started to go down back in, back in my tenure as chief.

And they still continue to go down, which I think is a positive for the city of Allentown and the police department.

Thank you, Mr.

McLean.

Is there a second question for.

All right, Mr.

Siegel?

Another question.

Okay.

Yeah.

You, Roger, you've said repeatedly that you would provide a steady hand to Lehigh County, but you've also said that really the only reason you're running is because of my presence on the ballot.

It seems that the issue in Lehigh County is that the status quo isn't working in many respects.

We have unaffordable housing.

We have real challenges here.

If your vision is just to keep things going as they are, what reason would anyone want to support a steady hand when it's not working for folks in Lehigh County?

I've never said my vision is to keep things the way they are.

I even said here tonight at the beginning I said, my my vision is to see that out at that.

Lehigh County is a better place when I leave than it was when I step in inside my reason.

You're you're four out of five times voting no when it came to hiring police, when you're on city council, you're marching down Hamilton Street yelling, F the police.

You're now, you're now you're going to be the champion of police.

I just can't believe it.

They did.

A leopard doesn't change its spots.

Thank you, Mr.

McQueen.

Your second question for Mr.

Siegel.

Yeah, about the regionalization study that you were talking about.

Was that the the one that was done back by the Regional Intelligence and Investigation Center back in 2013?

No, sir, it was not.

It was done in 2018, 2019, if memory serves, it was a recent study done by this new board of commissioners.

My opinion.

Okay.

There's multiple times I'd have to I'd have to see that because I think it's the same study, but I'd have to see if the the figures were updated, but.

Okay.

Okay.

My question was to him if it was the same study and to my knowledge it is not the same study.

Thank you, Mr.

Siegel.

Your third and final question for Mr.

McLean.

Okay, Roger, I know this is an uncomfortable subject and you don't like talking about the president, but you very clearly enjoyed talking about him during the primary, where you couldn't stop bringing up all the times you voted for him.

You've indicated multiple times you considered me to be rampantly anti law enforcement and anti-police, but you had no problem voting for a president who incited a violent and bloody insurrection that injured hundreds of Capitol Police officers.

So if my actions are beyond the pale for you and a leopard doesn't change its spots, how can you justify voting for a president who, in my opinion, did something significantly worse than I did?

Because you keep going back to that, I'm not going to adjudicate that.

Why don't we talk about your January 6th, which was July 10th or 11th of 2020 when you marched down Hamilton Street, when when you when you gave out, when you gave out the mayor's phone number.

All right, Mr.

McLean, your third and final question for Mr.

Siegel.

Third and final question is.

What is what what has changed now that you were so anti-police all the time, and you even said that they're on their way out.

You made that comment when you were when you were questioned after after city council.

But, what is saying what what what what what what are we supposed to believe?

What are you what are you telling us now that you're up to.

You're a career politician now.

You're now you're telling us you're you're supportive of the police.

How are we supposed to believe that?

As I've said multiple times, I don't think that my actions during the course of 2020 and the George Floyd protests can be characterized as anti-police.

You can be for racial justice and reducing recidivism and reinvesting in the community and also support our police.

If your argument is that I defunded law enforcement, that's just functionally and factually and factually inaccurate.

I invest in 70.

So I'm talking I invested $76 million in my two Allentown police budgets.

In the legislature.

I have consistently voted to fund state police and local police.

It's a continuous record, and I think that all officials are capable of growth, maturity and development.

And I've listened to Chief Rocha, the district attorney, and I like to think that anybody is capable of personal growth and reflection and understanding.

I just think it's hilarious that you hold your president and everybody else in your party to one standard, and they can do no wrong.

But God forbid a Democrat make, you know, an error in the course of their life or grow on an issue, and you don't extend the same grace and courtesy.

So spare me your sanctimonious hypocrisy.

Spanked as the spare me yours too.

But I didn't say I didn't.

I didn't say that.

That's not what I said.

Thank you both candidates.

We'll continue now with more questions.

After that, we'll wrap things up with your closing statements.

Just a reminder, you each get up to a minute to respond here, and if you want to rebut something, just let us know.

Megan, please start us off while you're going to love this.

The next section is about political discourse.

We find ourselves in an era of intense political violence.

Just this year, an arsonist tried to burn down the governor's mansion here in Pennsylvania.

Minnesota speaker of the House Melissa Hortman was murdered inside of her home.

And political activist Charlie Kirk was assassinated in Utah.

Mr.

McLean, how are we as Americans going to break this cycle?

And has your rhetoric portraying Mr.

Siegel as an extremist contributed to the problem?

I don't think my rhetoric, my rhetoric has extreme, has caused any problem.

His rhetoric, I wasn't marching down Hamilton Street, killing off the police.

I've always been supportive of the police.

I think that political violence is uncalled for.

It's it's a warrant, and it should never happen again.

Unfortunately, we live in a society where that doesn't always happen, that that doesn't always work.

I think law enforcement has to be swift, has to move to to stop this.

And there are mentioned there are other safety measures that I think need to be taken for candidates or political activists who are put in a position like that, that I think can can ensure some safety.

Thank you, Mr.

McLean.

Mr.

Siegel, you accused right wing extremists of using Charlie Kirk staff as a right Reichstag moment.

That's a reference to how Nazis curtailed civil liberties.

Do you stand by those comments?

And is that rhetoric appropriate in this moment of American history?

Yeah.

Look, I think that the reality is that this politics in this moment requires accountability.

Calling folks who behave like fascists and behave like authoritarians is not dangerous.

It's simply accountability.

We have a very dangerous moment in this country.

I had said that I believe the modern Republican Party and I draw a distinction from its voters and its institution.

The modern Republican Party has been co-opted by a far right evangelical political movement that is about politics of perpetual outrage, animosity and anger, because the far right political project isn't about building anything.

It's not about offering Americans better health care or funding our schools or making our streets safer.

It's about scapegoating communities the minority, our LGBT community, our immigrant community.

That's all the far right political project stands for.

And I think that most folks in this country Republicans, Democrats and independents are rightfully appalled by that type of rhetoric.

We want to see each other as neighbors and Americans and Pennsylvanians.

And my one Lehigh vision is about that.

But when you have a president, United States, who tells generals that the enemy from within is Democrats, I see one apparatus in this country fomenting the majority of division.

Mr.. Mr.. McLean, you under respond?

Yes, very, very briefly.

I didn't know Chuck Schumer became a Republican because he was the one standing out threatening that the Supreme Court justices, who was the representative from California, who told to their constituents and told everybody to get in the face of people that worked for Donald Trump.

I, I voted for Donald Trump three times.

I told him that I admitted it at the debates.

I was a Ted Cruz fan initially in 2016.

He didn't make it.

I voted for Donald Trump.

Mr.

Siegel, very briefly, what I want to say is the only way that we are going to unify as a country and come back together is to defeat that far right political project.

It requires accountability, requires calling it out for what it is.

It requires political courage to say and stand up to that movement and say it will not take root here.

And if you don't have the courage or capacity to call out your own party, or have the courage and capacity to point out division for what it is, you can't bring the community together.

And so long as that far right project persists and succeeds, we are going to be pulled further and further apart.

And it's alarming when the president refers to Democrats as Nats that need to be taken care of.

Thank you.

It's on both sides.

Moving on.

You know, we're going to be addressing perhaps something equally equally as divisive.

Public transportation, public transit remains where the many points of contention is in the ongoing state budget dispute.

While Septa and the Pittsburgh Regional Transit have gotten bailed out, Lanta may need cut.

They may need to cut routes and raise rates.

If it doesn't.

If funding doesn't materialize by next year.

Mr.

McLean, if you're elected, would you entertain greater county subsidies to lessen the hit land it takes?

If the impasse persists in 2026, that would be my last resort.

But I think that the Republicans in this in the state House have put forward a plan to pay for that, which was which was, wasn't accepted by the Democrats.

There was some money of funding a training fund or a school fund that they, they wanted to use that would pay for that and then give, give the legislature time to work on.

I'm coming up with a comprehensive plan.

But that was, that was voted down.

Mr.

Siegel, speaking as a state representative and someone who has now voted on three separate budgets, that the Senate Republicans continuously reject the proposal put forth by the Senate Republicans is deeply unserious.

What it called for was Septa and part to raid their capital fund.

So there is a public transportation trust fund here in the state of Pennsylvania that we use to pay for capital improvements, modernizing old train cars that are not Ada compliant, fixing up the actual tracks themselves.

And it is fiscally irresponsible to read that fund.

It would be like taking your savings for home repairs to take a vacation.

It is not the purpose of that fund.

And we have an issue in Harrisburg where the Senate Republicans are holding all of our constituents hostage because they want to try to undermine our governor's approval ratings and defeat him in 2026.

That's what we're running into this administration.

And our House Dems have put three separate budget proposals together, including one where we would increase the overall amount of money that comes out of the sales tax fund into public transit, which would make things like Lanta and Septa whole.

I think it's irresponsible and reckless to raid the capital fund, but I would support Lanta doing that in the short term as a Band-Aid solution to prevent and forestall those cuts.

Thank you, Mr.

Siegel.

These next questions are about the housing crisis.

Mr.

Siegel County government historically has had little to do with housing policy, but a shortage of housing stock has sent the cost of living through the roof.

What, if anything, would your administration do to lower costs for residents?

I think this is the issue where I've been at the forefront and the biggest leader in Harrisburg, I've helped form a housing caucus.

I have advanced legislation that would expedite and speed up the rezoning of vacant office space to turn into multifamily residential.

Look, the county doesn't have direct zoning power, but what we do have is the power of leadership and facilitation.

It is our job to bring municipalities to the table and get everyone to act in concert and in collaboration.

I think the first thing we have to do is sit down with our municipalities and get them to embrace more smart, strategic, mixed use development.

And we have great models for that here in Lehigh County, the Allentown State Hospital property, the promenade shop development, and the Lower Macungie town square.

If we can get more municipalities to embrace that kind of development, we can create more inventory, build more housing, and that will reduce costs.

But I've also talked about and it's exciting that Bethlehem, just this week, is exploring the idea of a revolving loan fund.

And I think this is a great area where the county can pull municipalities together and fund at a regional level, a large revolving loan fund like they have in Montgomery County, Maryland, where they're going to build 8500 units of new affordable housing over the next decade.

Thank you, Mr.

McLean.

Same question.

What, if anything, would a McLean administration do to address escalating housing costs?

I would also work with the different municipalities.

I would not I would not take that burden on to the county itself.

As far as a fund to, to build houses.

Mr.

Siegel, I think, has proposed about $100 million fund that he wants to do to, to help build affordable housing.

If that fails and the market dictates the housing, if that would fail, then the taxpayers would be on the hook for that money.

So I would work.

I would work with the different municipalities.

I would work with builders to try and get them to build that.

The affordable housing.

But I would not take it on as a county project.

Mr.

Siegel, once again, distinct difference leadership is not about low hanging fruit or the path of least resistance.

And that path is how we become a valley of $800,000 homes that prices out our teachers, our firefighters and our nurses.

I believe that the county alone does not have to shoulder the burden, and that's not my intention.

As I've said, I think if we get all the municipalities around the table and I'll give you an example, that $100 million bond would have about a $3 million a year debt service.

That's exactly what it cost in Montgomery County, Maryland.

I don't think the county should go it alone, but I believe that you could get all of the municipalities in the Lehigh Valley in a Lehigh Valley wide approach to each pitch in enough that we could fund that debt service every year.

And I believe if we work with our philanthropic sector, we could protect taxpayers from ever having to bear the burden.

That's all the time we have, Mr.

Siegel.

Thank you.

Mr.

McLean, the Armstrong administration has made some untraditional investments in the public defender's office, along with hiring attorneys to defend those who can't afford criminal defense.

The office now employs a social worker and runs a pardon Project program that helps nonviolent offenders clear their records.

If elected, would you keep these programs in place?

Sure.

Short answer.

Yeah.

Why not?

If it's if it's working, I'm not going to micromanage the public defender's office.

You know, if they put something in the budget and then the commissioners approve it, I'm not going to micromanage.

I'm not going to micromanage each, the public defender's budget.

If they chemical is very diligent.

And she does a great job also.

But if she if she wants it, that's part of her budget and she can have it, then she can have it.

Would you plan on keeping her on or have you made that decision yet?

Oh yeah, I have no problem with with chemical.

Very good.

Mr.

Siegel would you like to continue the changes the Armstrong administration has made and the public defender's office?

Yeah.

And as I said, I think I would like to expand on them.

As I indicated earlier, I think Kim McCool is a fantastic public defender.

I have every intention of keeping her on in my administration.

She's an extraordinarily innovative and forward thinking public defender.

But as I said earlier, I think there's actually more we can do.

The famous Gideon versus Wainwright trial is the trial that guaranteed every American, legal representation in a courtroom if they couldn't afford it.

I think we need to extend that protection to folks who are going through eviction proceedings.

And I think it's a natural place to house in the public defender's office.

Those are difficult legal legal proceedings.

And in Philadelphia, when a tenant has legal representation, 95% of the time, they avoid eviction.

So I would like to continue to maintain what Kim McCool has done and empower her to go further.

She is the leader, I believe, of the public Defenders Association in Pennsylvania.

We should be very fortunate.

We should feel so fortunate that we have that level of talent, in Lehigh County.

And I want to empower all of my cabinet heads to innovate, to think and have the resources they need to be cutting edge.

Thank you.

Let's talk about employee pay, Mr.

Siegel, both you and Mr.

McClean have worked in county government.

We've seen complaints and turnover in some operations, including the Lehigh County Jail and the 911 center.

How would you address these issues?

And our county workers underpaid?

Look, I think anytime people work in the public sector, there's always a sacrifice in salary in exchange for better benefits.

One of the things we offer, I think, is some of the best health care and retirement package you can get anywhere.

It's one of the few places in this country you still get a defined benefit pension.

Even in the legislature, we have a hybrid system now half defined contribution, half defined benefit.

We need to maintain that commitment to our employees.

They count on the stability of their retirement and their health care as incentives to work there.

When it comes to the jail, I actually draw on my experience as state representative.

We have to acknowledge that the types of folks who make good corrections officers, means we can't kind of go out to the broad public and recruit.

The Shapiro administration has done a really good job at strategically and tactically recruiting for corrections officers in our state prisons by recruiting former military personnel who are used to that level of discipline and sort of rigidity and long hours and tough work conditions.

I want to set our employees up for success, and I think that means being tactical and innovative about how we recruit for certain types of jobs.

And yes, where possible, always make sure that our employees get a living wage.

I'll just end with, I think we should offer paid family leave to all of our county employees, as I did when I was on Allentown City Council, which I think is another great benefit to attract and retain employees.

Thank you, Mr.

McLean.

How would your administration address high turnover rates in some county operations, and do employees need a raise for.

Well, every employee will say they need a raise.

And when I was an employee I would say I needed a raise too.

But I always said when I was in police department, there's a fine line between what I wanted as chief of police and my budget and what the taxpayers couldn't afford.

So there's a there's, there's you have to you have to walk that tightrope.

But anyhow, this is this is where a leader has to get together.

He has to find out what what are the issues.

And this is easy to do.

You can talk you can talk to both management and you can talk.

You can talk to the prison guards themselves.

Find out what is the issue, what's exit interviews if it's high turnover, we should have exit interviews.

That should give us some insight as to what some of the problems are that are that are causing this turnover.

I know and I know it's happening in other departments within within the county also.

And some of the social services.

Thank you.

Mr.

Siegel.

You had a rebuttal just briefly.

You know, I want to build on I didn't get a chance to address.

I think we have to recognize and I concur, that there are financial limitations.

I mean, in a perfect world, I think every public employee would have an extraordinarily generous salary and the benefits that they're owed.

And I think in this environment, in this world where there's so much unfair scrutiny and attacks on public sector service that we owe it to our employees to have their back and stand up for them.

But I think there are ancillary benefits that you can offer.

Like I said, six weeks of paid family leave for all of our city employees.

I was proud to implement that and pass that on Allentown City Council.

It's been a tremendous retention and retain ment tool.

But I also think on site facility improvements, you know, lots of companies offer fitness centers.

I think things like that might help.

Thank you.

We need to move along because as we come to the time for closing statements, each candidate gets 60s.

We'll go into this, it will go in the same order determined by the coin toss, which gives Mr.

Siegel the last word tonight.

But first, Mr.

McLean, your closing statement.

Thank you very much.

It's been a pleasure to be here.

It's been a pleasure to debate with Mr.

Siegel.

The county needs somebody that can run.

Can run the operation with a steady hand.

Look at all sides of the issues.

And then make decisions, informed decisions, with the help of the staff, the department heads.

I've said from day one that my first thing is going to be to talk to department heads and the workers.

I don't just talk to one side.

I want to get information and input from both sides.

And from there we could we could make some policy decisions that would make working conditions better for everybody.

And hopefully, hopefully it would help retain, retain employees also make it a better place to live and work that.

Thank you, Mr.

McLean.

Mr.

Siegel, your closing statement.

Thank you.

And thanks again for hosting and moderating this debate.

It's been an eventful and lively night.

I've said from day one that I believe this commonwealth, this country in this county needs a new generation of leadership.

We need to elect folks who are going to live with the consequences of the decisions that they make, that are thinking about what the next 50 years of Lehigh County look like.

I don't just think this election is about my administration in the next eight years.

It's the decisions we make today that are going to determine whether the next 50 years of Lehigh County are as prosperous as the last 20.

We have real challenges and crises that we're facing nationally and locally, and it requires bold, decisive and audacious.

If I do audacious leadership, it requires vision.

And I think that I have excelled in this campaign at putting forward a tangible, clear cut vision.

I believe our constituents deserve a moral direction and a clear sense of where this county is going.

Folks are losing faith in institutions, and we are facing an era where government lacks credibility, and the only way we're going to earn that back is prove that government can be a force for good and not greed, and that it can actually make improvements in people's lives.

And that's what one Lehigh is about.

No one left behind, no one left out a county we can all afford, where we feel safe, where we feel heard, and where people know that a leader has your back no matter what's happening.

Thank you, Mr.

Siegel.

That brings us to the end of the televised portion of the 2025 Lehigh County Executive debate.

We're going to continue the action over on the PBS 39 YouTube channel.

But first, we want to give it we want to thank the candidates for being here tonight.

Let's give them a round of applause, please.

Thanks also to my co moderator tonight, Megan Frank, as well as our studio audience here in the Universe Public Media Center, of course.

And of course, thank you for joining us for tonight's program.

Remember, the election is Tuesday, November 4th.

I'm Tom Shortall.

If you're not there already, hop over to the YouTube channel for a special debate extra with our candidates.

And from all of us here at Lehigh Valley Public Media.

Good night.