[piano intro] - Hello, I'm Nido Qubein, welcome to Side By Side.

My guest today grew up in Newark, New Jersey.

She was raised by her grandparents.

Her grandfather shined shoes for a living and told her when she was young, speak the King's English.

She now, is a hall of fame speaker, she has presented to audiences in more than 40 countries.

And has become one of the countries most influential experts on diversity and inclusion.

Today, you and I get to meet Lenora Billings-Harris.

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- [Announcer 3] For over 60 years, the everyday leaders at the Budd Group have been committed to providing smart, customized facility solutions to our clients and caring for the communities we serve.

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[upbeat music] ♪ - Lenora welcome to Side By Side.

I have known you for the better part of three decades.

I have watched you as a major contributor to understanding about diversity in our country.

I know that you have been selected and voted as one of the 100 global thought leaders on diversity and inclusion.

You have been the president of the National Speakers Association with thousands of members.

You've spoken in more than 40 countries.

You have had a very splendid and colorful career.

How do you define diversity?

- Do you know that's a question I get asked often, and it's amazing people are confused about it.

Diversity in and of itself simply means, difference.

And so really, as it relates to the work, it's diversity and inclusion.

Becoming comfortable with people different than yourself and being able to include them in the decision making, and talent, and all of that type of thing.

So it's about difference and difference is not a bad thing.

- No, differences we should celebrate our differences and be appreciative for our similarities.

That's what makes a community interesting and holistic.

Whose responsibility is it to see that diversity happens?

Is it a one way street?

Is it the leadership, or should it do that?

Is it also the individual's responsibility to reach out and contribute in such a way that diversity and inclusion become a natural outcome of human relationships?

- Right, I believe that it's everyone's responsibility, but as you know, if it's everybody's responsibility then usually nothing happens.

So it really needs to start at the top with leadership, whether it's the community or an organization.

And, the important thing is to connect diversity and inclusion to the organization's business goals or their service goals or whatever it is.

So that people can understand why they're doing it.

It's easy to say, yes we should get along with people different than ourselves, but we have to first, be intentional about it.

- How does a business do that in relationship to their goals, their vision, their mission, and their values?

- So for example, with some of the clients with whom I work, the first thing we do is to look at what their business goals are for the next three to five years.

And then, we can step back and say, how will you achieve that with the talent you currently have?

And very often, they don't realize that they're not looking at a broad enough market.

Whether it's market to bring people in the organization or broadening their footprint in their business.

So when they start realizing what they're missing, because they haven't tapped into underrepresented groups, then it becomes something that makes sense.

That it makes sense to bring people on who have a different perspective, that might have a different view of things so that they can make better decisions.

The second part of that, is to be able to listen to those perspectives and not try to make everybody a cookie cutter.

- Yeah.

So I'm gonna ask a lot of questions because I wanna learn from you.

You're an expert, you're very approachable, you explain things in ways we can all understand and hopefully apply.

But there are some, there are some biases that we all have to deal with.

Some known, some perhaps are subconscious.

There is some resistance in societal circles about subjects like diversity, inclusion, so on.

I don't know where they stem from, perhaps you can tell me, is it upbringing?

Is it frame of reference?

Is it religion?

Is it political party?

How do people become biased?

- Well, it's a combination of all of those things, but what's exciting about the work right now, is now we understand because of the neuroscience that is available, and as it relates to bias is, we understand how the physical brain operates as well as our minds.

So we now know, how biases form and they form at a very early age.

The moment you're born, quite frankly- - [Nido] Really?

- You start developing preferences, not good or bad.

They make sense at the time.

But by the time we're an adult, oftentimes, those biases that were framed for us a long time ago, we don't consider them when we're making decisions.

That is, we don't look at another perspective.

Now, every bias is not bad that's so important to realize.

- Every bias is not bad?

- It is not bad.

- What does that mean?

- So for example, you shared with the audience that my grandfather told me to speak- - Yes.

Yes.

- correct English.

Well, that developed a bias for me.

I wanted to learn how to speak correctly without an accent.

That was what he thought was most important.

So that would be a bias.

- Is it a bias?

Or is it a skill?

- Well, it's a bias when you stop having to think about it.

When it just becomes a habit.

When it becomes part of how you operate.

In the beginning though, when you're learning about your biases most of which are unconscious.

When you are willing to uncover them and you usually have to have other people give you feedback, then it's not a habit yet to do something different.

You have to intentionally behave differently and then, it can become a habit.

- [Nido] Yes.

- Then it become just a normal way of business.

- [Nido] I see.

and that's how it affects the business culture.

- I see, and good habits are hard to develop but easy to live with.

And bad habits are easy to develop but very hard to live with.

Help me understand how I would identify my biases.

- So what I always recommend, is to find somebody you trust, usually not your life partner, because there's so much emotion attached to that.

But find someone you trust a good friend or somebody you work with on a regular basis.

And say to them, I wanna know more about, let's say, for example, since you're a Caucasian and I'm black, you might say I wanna know more about African Americans or people of color.

And I really wanna know if I happen to say, or do something that might show my bias.

Just 'cause I don't know better.

So you have a conversation- - How does one show biases?

In actions, in language- - Yes, yes, all of those things.

So you're gonna ask that person to point out to you, not in front of a lot of people, but point out to you when you might say or do something that happens to be biased.

Now what I have found with the executives I work with is they ask their whole team to do that with one another.

So in the middle of a meeting, someone might say, well, you know, Dr. Qubein I think there might be a different perspective on that.

I think that might be just a bit biased.

Are you open to hearing another perspective?

So learning how have a conversation without getting into an argument when you're talking about bias- - [Nido] Yes, yes.

- When talking about differences is a critical skill.

- So Lenora, give me the categories of bias?

- Oh my gosh, there are about 125 I believe that- - [Nido] You're not serious.

- have been uncovered so far.

- 125?

- There's many.

- So when I think about biases, I think about race, religion, politics, anything to do with sexual orientation, maybe age.

I'm not sure I could name more than maybe eight or 10.

- So those would be categories within which we could have biases and then, so let's say for example, with age.

Oftentimes people will say, oh, that person's too old to be able to do this job.

Baby boomers still don't know how to work a computer.

They may say it with a smile on their face and even a joke and even people in that category might say it, but what they're doing is perpetuating a negative bias.

Because you and I both know, that people in their '70s still do extraordinarily well with technology.

So it's about disrupting those biases that come up in those categories.

When it comes to religion, what I often say to people is, this is not at all about trying to change your beliefs.

It is about helping you understand that all of us happen to be human beings and we're all connected.

So how might we be able to work together?

And then, that develops into a longer conversation when the person might recognize or might identify what it is they have learned from their religion.

And oftentimes we exaggerate.

So people will say, oh, I can't even say Merry Christmas anymore.

Well, that was never a rule.

But if you don't know if the person's Christian, then maybe saying happy holidays would be more respectful.

If you know they're Christian say Merry Christmas.

- So I wanna just dig a little deeper in that.

How does one... practice inclusion without giving up a set of deep beliefs?

You just mentioned Merry Christmas, happy holidays.

We all talk about that.

So if someone says, what if I say happy holidays, it's as if I do not recognize that I am a follower of Christ?

So I wanna understand how does one do that without giving up principles, values, and tenants with which you grow up?

Second, I wanna ask you, is the word bias a negative word or is it a neutral word?

- So first of all, I truly believe you have to be authentically who you are.

You have to be integrous to your own beliefs, and be respectful of other beliefs at the same time.

- [Nido] Yes, yes.

- So as a leader, you can be respectful to your own belief, while at the same time, mentioning maybe other religions when you're speaking for example, is to not only say Jesus, but maybe make a reference -- maybe say, God, instead if you need to say it.

Or something from the Jewish religion, a quote from their beliefs that type of thing.

Which says to the listeners, you're learned and you are learning, even though you're still being true to yourself.

As it relates to bias, unfortunately, it has become a word that people think is negative.

Mainly because we only hear about the negative biases.

- [Nido] Yes, yes.

- But bias is a good thing.

Our biases get us through life.

Real quick example, my grandparents, when I was five or six, taught me how to cross the street, look left, look right, look left again.

I don't have to think about that when I'm crossing the street, I just do it.

And if it's safe, of course cross the street.

But when I'm in South Africa or London, if I follow that habit, which is a bias, I'd probably get run over.

because they drive on the other side of the street.

So there are times where you need to be mindful that your habit, your bias might not necessarily be appropriate in a given situation.

- Tell me how a person can identify whether they're biased.

And then, how do they overcome that?

- Yes.

So first of all, all of us are biased.

You can't not be biased if you're a human being.

- [Nido] But some biases, as you've just said, may be good.

I'm talking about more injurious biases.

- Yes, yes.

I think all of us do have some that are injurious and we may not know it.

And that's why it's so important to get feedback.

What I have seen happen over the last four or five years is that more executives are willing to be vulnerable enough to recognize that they don't know, what they don't know.

And so, they are reaching out to people different from themselves and willing to say, you know, I, I just don't know.

I don't know your life experience.

I don't know what barriers might be getting in the way within our organization.

And I need you to honestly tell me that.

And more and more people, are having the courage to speak their truth and more executives are willing to listen.

And that's when they recognize that the business or the organization does so much better when they have more diversity of thought.

'Cause that's ultimately what it's about within an organization.

- So Lenora, I've heard you say in the past, that the best advice you give anybody is, never compromise integrity at all times, in all ways, make sure integrity rules, the day, decision making, solution finding, et cetera.

I wanna put you on the spot.

You talk about these executives who wanna identify the biases.

Who encourage people around the table to call 'em out in a nice way.

Do you believe that all this motion and commotion in America about diversity and inclusion is authentic or do you think sometimes people do that out of self-interest?

You know, I've got to do that, because if our company doesn't do that, we're gonna get punished somehow by an institutional investor or we're gonna be written up somewhere.

And if that is the case, does it in the end really achieve anything of value.

- That, that begs the question to the leader.

What are your organization's values?

Because if your values are clear, you're going to know whether or not you need to speak up on certain issue.

- So gimme an example of values that would illustrate immediately that that organization chooses to be unbiased, chooses to be inclusive.

- So the words of course are easy to write.

But when a organization says their people are their biggest their greatest asset.

- [Nido] Yes.

- Then the question is, and how are you treating all of your people?

Not just some of your people.

And there are instances where maybe it's not appropriate for you to make a public statement about something happening in the organization.

You might make one, that's an internal statement.

Or what I have found, is when you made no statement, no news is not good news, these days.

You need to make some type of statement.

Again, related to the company's values.

Not saying, because it's diversity, because it's inclusion, is what is the organization about?

And that, as you know, when your values are clear, that helps you make all kind of decisions.

And there are gonna be some people who may not like your response and you may lose some customers or clients.

Is it worth it to stay true to your values?

And my experience has been, yes, you might lose some, but you gain many more.

- Values drive the day.

Otherwise they're not values.

Right?

Values and principles, they're foundational.

They must drive the day, otherwise.

In other words, if you love people, you gotta be inclusive, right?

How can you say, my beliefs, my religion drives me to love my brothers and sisters?

On the other hand, you don't treat them respect, and inclusivity and so on.

There is a lot of talk in America, today.

And I know I'm talking to you about a sensitive subject here, but you answer the questions beautifully.

And you illustrate in your answers a sense of inclusion yourself, that you are respectful of everyone.

And you demonstrate what you talk about Lenora, which is what I've always loved about you.

So approachable, so disarming, you're not a fighter.

You are an explainer and a persuader.

So the word equity, the word equity creates, conjures so many meanings for so many people.

It is for many, a word that is embedded in political angles, persuasions.

You talk about diversity and inclusion.

You don't always insert the word equity.

- Sometimes, well actually, of late I do.

And particularly, if an organization has already identified that that's one of the areas they wanna look into.

And that is the hardest I must say.

- [Nido] What's misunderstood?

- Yes.

- [Nido] What is the definition of the word equity?

- So people think equity means equal.

It doesn't.

Equal means, that when you and I come into an organization, we're gonna get exactly the same thing.

However, you and I are different.

You're a man, I'm a woman.

We come from different backgrounds, et cetera.

Now, we are fully qualified for the positions we're in.

That's critical.

But once we're in those positions, we may still need different things.

So the equity means, that maybe you already have mentors, that your supervisor is very comfortable with giving you feedback, whether it's positive or negative.

As a black woman, if particularly, if my boss happens to be a white man, he might be uncomfortable giving me the feedback I need.

He may be uncomfortable being a mentor simply because he hasn't dealt with black women before.

And he somehow thinks we're extraordinarily different than everybody else.

And so he's timid.

He's afraid from equality.

He's thinking of equal employment opportunity and he'll get sued, so he ends up saying nothing.

So that's where that equity imbalance comes in.

The organization, if they're willing to do the work might be able to uncover for those underrepresented groups in particular, what might be some things that they need, that other people are getting more easily?

Not that they're unqualified, but they may not be getting it as easily.

And in today's world, people are a bit more willing to speak up.

But that equality thing, I'm so glad you asked the question, because people just get it so confused.

Now, when we're talking about equality of justice- - [Nido] Well, that's different.

Of course, of course.

- or education, that's different.

But equity is about- - [Nido] And the law covers much of that, you know?

- Yes, yes.

And so, equity is about, are we giving people the tools they need to be effective at what they're doing?

And, are we willing to do the work to uncover where it is not equitable?

That doesn't mean we're all the same.

That means that you have to notice our differences.

- So you're describing a definition to suggest that we should be encouraging and resourcing, and be aware, develop awareness about that.

I must tell you, that's not at all what I hear as a definition of equity.

It is so embedded in political biases, since we've used that word, that people are scared that the form of government will change and the form of rule will change, and so on.

You're saying, it's not that?

- I'm saying, it's not that, but I'm saying, that I realize that it's hard work.

Because, it's so much easier to just stay in your own bubble and continue to be around people who think just like you.

Because then you're less likely to have an argument.

What I encourage people to do- - [Nido] Well, not only that, but you're less likely to achieve more, be more, grow, more, give more.

You know, we used to say in the profiling days, when you do these personality profiles, make sure if you have a committee, have one of- - [Lorena] Yes.

- [Both] every type.

- [Lorena] Exactly.

- So that you can get real discourse- - [Lorena] Exactly.

- and discussion that's meaningful.

- And the key to that is, that organizations have done a reasonably good job of hiring people of difference.

- [Nido] Yeah.

- They've not done a very good job of being inclusive.

That's why this work excites me now, because now that we know how biases work, they can discover why they were not as inclusive as they otherwise could be.

- How is diversity different than inclusion?

- So diversity is just bringing people around you who are different.

- [Nido] Different backgrounds, different, yes.

- Yes, that's, that's it, but that's not enough.

Inclusion is, not only having people around you who are different, but listening to their perspectives and their points of view.

- Engaging, and involving them.

- Engaging them.

Now the third part though, is belonging.

Where belonging is, when not only are you listening to somebody different than you, you respect them in the first place.

- Even though they're different than you.

- Yes.

- Even though you may be biased towards that sector, - Exactly.

- that category, learn more about it.

- And you may not do whatever it is they're suggesting.

- [Nido] Yes.

- But you're making an educated decision, now.

- [Nido] Yes.

- Instead of one, just based on your past biases.

- So Lenora, the way you explain things is amazing.

And I've heard you on the platform, you don't invite resistance.

You really invite a desire to learn more.

I can talk to you for hours cause you're enlightened and informed and you're clear in the way you explain things.

As you see what is happening in America, what encourages you and what disappoints you?

- What disappoints me is, people of influence are not willing to explore different perspectives.

- Well, why don't they?

- Because we fear that, which we do not know.

And change doesn't happen until we get uncomfortable with the status quo.

So if they're still comfortable with the way things have been in the past, why should they change?

So people are afraid.

That's discouraging.

Because, I know from doing this work for so long and you know, so much research that's out there.

That organizations, countries, communities do better when they're diverse and inclusive.

It's proven.

It's not just people making that up.

So, it's discouraging that people are not willing to lean in to some of that discomfort so they can learn.

What encourages- - How do we get them to where you think they should be?

- Yes.

So, what encourages me, is there are more people today who feel more empowered than ever before to be their authentic self.

So what I mean by that is, people who have in the past kept their head down, done hard work, don't not rock the boat, even though they're miserable and not being heard.

They're more empowered to speak up.

They're more empowered to look different, to be different.

Now, that makes people uncomfortable.

However, what I believe with within organizations is that those organizations that have begun a diversity, equity and inclusion- - [Nido] Yeah.

- initiative or journey would be let alone.

- Where does respect comes into all of this?

Let me give you an example, if the values of a company, and the personality of a company, or an organization, or a university, it doesn't matter.

And then, somebody wishes to be their authentic self, but their authentic self is very different than their organization.

It looks like a rebel trying to change the values of the organization.

- [Lorena] Yes.

- Talk to me about that.

- So, I used to speak to young people quite often.

I mean, I still do occasionally, but I used to do a lot of it.

And I would say to them, your objective is to get the job offer.

Then your objective is to get hired.

So it doesn't mean you have to give up who you are, but you need to study the organization first.

And be willing to come into the interview in a way that's not immediately going to disarm or in a negative way or make other person- - And I'm talking after they're hired.

After they're part of that society.

- So what happens is after, after a person is hired, and they have proven their worth, then they can begin to become more authentically who they are.

Now, as I say that, people are gonna disagree.

- But they shouldn't be very disruptive.

- No.

- If they know what their values are.

- Yes, yes.

And, there in lies, the challenge.

- It's a balance isn't it?

- Is, some people want to be aggressive and make people upset.

And that, that changes some people.

- And it's a balance.

It's all about a balance.

- Yes, it's a balance.

Lenora Billings-Harris, you have done so much to help us all, educate us all.

I'm glad that you're with me at Side By Side, and I wish you the very best in all your goings and all your comings.

Thank you.

- Thank you so much for having me with you.

- [Announcer 1] Funding for Side By Side with Nido Qubein is made possible by, - [Announcer 2] Here's to those that rise and shine.

To friendly faces, doing more than their part.

And to those who still enjoy the little things.

You make it feel like home.

Ashley HomeStore.

This is home.

- [Announcer 3] For over 60 years, the everyday leaders at the Budd Group have been committed to providing smart, customized facility solutions to our clients and caring for the communities we serve.

[soft music] - [Announcer 4] Coca-Cola consolidated, is honored to make and serve 300 brands and flavors, locally.

Thanks to our teammates.

We are Coca-Cola Consolidated.

Your local bottler.