>> LES WEXNER GOES UNDER OATH TO EXPLAIN JEFFREY EPSTEIN.

WELCOME TO "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD. "

I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

THE JEFFREY EPSTEIN SCANDAL HAS HAD STRONG TIES TO CENTRAL OHIO FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

THIS WEEK, THE CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATION INTO EPSTEIN'S ASSOCIATES CAME TO CENTRAL OHIO, CAME TO NEW ALBANY.

LIMITED FOUNDER LES WEXNER GAVE A DEPOSITION TO THE HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE ON WEDNESDAY.

WEXNER ANSWERED QUESTIONS FOR ABOUT FIVE HOURS ABOUT HOW MUCH HE KNEW ABOUT THE SEX OFFENDER AND WHAT ROLE HE MAY HAVE PLAYED IN EPSTEIN'S ALLEGED SEX TRAFFICKING.

BEFORE THE SESSION BEGAN, WEXNER SUBMITTED RA LONG STATEMENT IN WHICH HE SAID, QUOTE, I WAS NAIVE, FOOLISH, AND GULLIBLE TO PUT ANY TRUST IN JEFFREY EPSTEIN.

HE WAS A CON MAN, AND WHILE I WAS CONNED, I HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG AND HAVE NOTHING TO MADE.

HIS NAME APPEARS IN THE EPSTEIN FILES THOUSANDS OF TIMES.

EPSTEIN CONTROLLED WEXNER'S MONEY FOR YEARS.

WEXNER SAYS EPSTEIN STOLE FROM HIM.

DURING THE DEPOSITION, WEXNER MAINTAINED HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH EPSTEIN WAS "JUST BUSINESS. "

>> WHAT COMMON INTERESTS DID YOU SHARE WITH MR.

EPSTEIN OUTSIDE OF WORK?

>> NONE.

>> SO YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANY PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH MR.

EPSTEIN WHATSOEVER?

>> I DON'T THINK I EVER WENT TO LUNCH OR DINNER OR A MOVIE OR HAD A CUP OF COFFEE WITH JEFFREY.

>> THAT STATEMENT SEEMS TO RUN COUNTER TO IMAGES IN THE EPSTEIN FILES.

FIVE DEMOCRATIC MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE WHO SAT IN ON THE DEPOSITION SAID WEXNER'S EXPLANATIONS WERE NOT CREDIBLE.

>> THERE WOULD BE NO EPSTEIN ISLAND, THERE WOULD BE NO EPSTEIN PLANE, THERE WOULD BE NO MONEY TO TRAFFIC WOMEN AND GIRLS.

MR.

EPSTEIN WOULD NOT BE THE WEALTHY MAN HE WAS WITHOUT THE SUPPORT OF LES WEXNER.

>> BASED ON THE EVIDENCE AND WHAT WE KNOW, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE A HARD TIME BELIEVING THEY WERE NOT FRIENDS.

>> WELL, THEY WERE CONNECTED FOR, WHAT, 20 YEARS ALMOST?

YEAH, I MEAN, WHEN YOU'RE ASKED THE QUESTION, WHAT KIND OF CONTACT DID YOU HAVE WITH HIM OUTSIDE OF BUSINESS?

I MEAN, YOU SAW PICTURES.

I MEAN, THEY WERE LIKE AT A SPORTING EVENT.

I MEAN, I DON'T THINK THAT'S BUSINESS-RELATED.

BUT HE -- IT SEEM LIKE LES WEXNER JUST DIDN'T RECALL A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS WHEN HE WAS ASKED QUESTIONS.

>> STANLEY, BEING DEPOSED NEVER LOOKS GOOD.

IT JUST IS --LAWYERS ARE ASKING YOU QUESTIONS, YOU'RE PUT ON THE SPOT, IT'S AN UNCOMFORTABLE SITUATION.

HOW DO YOU THINK HE CAME OFF IN THE DEPOSITION?

>> I MEAN, HE CAME OFF EXACTLY WHAT YOU WERE JUST SAYING, RIGHT?

LIKE HE DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING.

I THINK IT'S VERY HARD TO GO AND SAY THAT YOU'RE JUST GOING A MILLION DOLLARS TO SOMEONE WHO WAS AN ASSOCIATE OF YOURS.

I DON'T KNOW ANYBODY WHO HAS THAT MONEY THAT IS JUST GIVING MONEY AWAY.

I THINK THERE'S ACCOUNTABILITY OHIOANS ARE LOOKING FOR.

WE'RE NOT ASKING HIM TO KNOW EVERYTHING, WE'RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU DO KNOW.

TO SAY YOU KNOW YOU KNOW DOESN'T SEEM REASONABLE.

>> JESSIE, YET THERE'S SOME SPECULATION HE MIGHT TAKE THE FIFTH.

PROBABLY DOUBTFUL BECAUSE HE ASKED PEOPLE, MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, TO COME ALL THE WAY UP HERE, THEN TAKE THE FIFTH, WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A GOOD LOOK NO MATTER WHAT.

>> YEAH, I THINK YOU SAW FROM HIS STATEMENT, EVEN BEFORE THE PROCEEDINGS HAPPENED THAT HE HAD SOMETHING THAT HE WANTED TO SAY.

HE HAS REALLY BEEN THE SUBJECT OF A LOT OF SPECULATION AND CONCERN, AND YOU KNOW, PROBES AND SO FORTH.

PEOPLE OF SAYING, TAKE HIS NAME OFF OF EVERY SINGLE BUILDING.

SO I THINK HE WANTED TO PRESENT HIS POINT OF VIEW, AND THEN I THINK PEOPLE CAN LISTEN TO THOSE FIVE HOURS OR THE ANALYSIS AND DECIDE WHETHER ALL OF THAT WAS CREDIBLE.

>> DID WE LEARN ANYTHING NEW, SARAH, AFTER THOSE FIVE HOURS?

>> I HAVEN'T WATCHED ALL FIVE HOURS.

I UNFORTUNATELY HAVEN'T HAD THE TIME.

BUT THERE'S NOTHING THAT'S COME OUT THAT HAS BEEN BOMBSHELL, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WASN'T ALREADY KNOWN.

THESE FILES THAT ARE BEING RELEASED ARE OBVIOUSLY VERY DETAILED.

SO I DON'T KNOW THAT HE SHED ANY LIGHT ON ANYTHING THAT WAS NEW.

I THINK, LIKE JESSIE SAID, IT JUST MAYBE WAS THE MOST WE'VE HEARD FROM HIM IN A WHILE.

>> IS IT THE ONLY TIME THAT WE'VE ACTUALLY HEARD HIS VOICE -- >> YES.

>> --TALK ABOUT JEFFREY EPSTEIN?

>> YES.

>> WE'VE HAD MANY, MANY STATEMENTS FROM SPOKESPEOPLE, FROM HIS ATTORNEYS, BUT THIS WAS HIS VOICE EXPLAINING IT.

>> YEAH, AND I THINK HE JUST WANTED TO GET THE MESSAGE ACROSS THAT HE DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING.

AND THAT HE'S REALLY A VICTIM TOO.

I FOUND THAT INTERESTING.

THAT HE WENT BACK TO THE --HE STOLE, WHAT WAS IT, A BILLION?

HOW DO YOU STEAL A BILLION AND NOT NOTICE IT?

I MEAN, HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?

BUT I GUESS IT DID.

>> I THINK ONE THING I'D SAY, TOO, MY GRANDMA WOULD SAY IT.

IF YOU LAY WITH DOGS, YOU GET FLEAS.

SO FOR ME, THAT'S A CONCERN THAT OHIOANS HAVE, AND IT'S A QUESTION WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO ASK.

>> ONLY DEMOCRATS SHOWED UP FOR THIS HEARING.

AND THAT IS A DEPOSITION.

IT'S NOT REALLY A HEARING.

IT'S A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN THE BIG PANEL THAT YOU SEE ON CAPITOL HILL.

BUT STILL WHAT DOES THAT SAY IF NO REPUBLICANS SHOWED UP?

>> WELL, IT SHOWS THAT IT'S BECOME A VERY POLITICAL ISSUE.

IF YOU LISTEN TO ALL THE QUESTIONS THAT JASMINE CROCKETT ASKED, THEY WERE ALL REGARDING DONALD TRUMP AND WHAT HIS POTENTIAL RELATIONSHIP WAS WITH JEFFREY EPSTEIN.

AND LES WEXNER PRETTY MUCH SAID, I DON'T THINK THEY HAD ANY KIND OF RELATIONSHIP.

SO, I MEAN, THE DEMOCRATS CAME BECAUSE IT WAS POLITICAL.

AND THEY WANTED TO MAKE -- TRY TO MAKE POLITICAL POINTS, AND I DON'T KNOW IF THEY DID.

>> JESSIE, THE THREE OHIO CONGRESSPEOPLE WHO SERVE ON THAT COMMITTEE --JIM JORDAN, MIAMI TURNER, REPUBLICANS, AND SHONTEL BROWN, A DEMOCRAT, THEY DID NOT ATTEND EVEN THOUGH CONGRESS WAS NOT IN SESSION.

DO YOU READ ANYTHING INTO THAT?

>> I THINK IT'S INTERESTING THEY DIDN'T ATTEND, ESPECIALLY BROWN AS A DEMOCRAT.

I HAVEN'T HEARD STATEMENTS SPECIFICALLY -- >> SHE SAID SHE HAD A SCHEDULING CONFLICT.

WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM THE OTHER TWO, BUT SHE SAID SHE HAD A SCHEDULING CONFLICT.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S A SHORT TRIP.

IT'S NOT TOO FAR OF A DRIVE FOR THEM.

>> DID SHE MISS AN OPPORTUNITY?

BY NOT MEETING THERE?

>> I THINK SO.

DEMOCRAT AND REPUBLICANS SHOULD BE DISAPPOINTED FOR THE FOLKS WHO DID NOT SNOW UP.

IT'S NOT A LONG DRIVE, AND THIS IS SOMETHING A LOT OF FOLKS ARE ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT.

THEY'RE NOT IN SESSION.

THIS IS THEIR JOB TO BE A PART OF THIS KIND OF THING.

>> CAN YOU BE FRIENDS WITH SOMEBODY AND STILL NOT KNOW A HIDDEN SIDE OF THEM?

WHY IS LES WEXNER SAYING, I NEVER HAD A CUP OF COFFEE WITH HIM, I NEVER WENT TO LUNCH WITH HIM.

WE SEE CHAMPAGNE WITH HIM.

I WAS FRIENDS WITH HIM 20 YEARS, I HAD NO IDEA THIS WAS GOING ON.

>> HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE HAD SITUATIONS WHERE PEOPLE WERE - -YOU KNOW, A MURDERER OR, YOU KNOW, THEY ROBBED A BANK AND THEY GO TO THEIR FRIENDS AND RELATIVES AND THEY'LL SAY, OH, MY GOSH, I NEVER WOULD HAVE EXPECTED THAT OF THEM.

SO I GUESS IT DOES HAPPEN.

NOW, THIS WAS --THIS SPECIFIC CASE, I CAN'T TELL YOU.

BUT I MEAN, THERE ARE A LOT OF INSTANCES WHERE PEOPLE THINK, OH MY GOSH, I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT THEY WOULD DO THAT.

>> ALL RIGHT.

SENATOR JOHN HUSTED THIS WEEK BECAME THE HIGHEST-PROFILE POLITICIAN TO DONATE CAMPAIGN FUNDS HE HAS RECEIVED FROM LES WEXNER.

HE JOINS MANY OTHERS.

GOVERNOR DeWINE HAS ALSO RECEIVED LOTS OF CAMPAIGN FROM WEXNER OVER THE YEARS.

HE HAS NOT SAID WHAT HE WOULD DO WITH THAT MONEY, BUT THIS WEEK HE DEFENDED WEXNER, CALLING THE BILLIONAIRE'S RELATIONSHIP WITH EPSTEIN OLD NEWS.

DeWINE TOLD A POLITICAL EVENT IN WASHINGTON HE DOES NOT SEE HAVING WEXNER'S NAME REMOVED FROM OHIO'S STATE UNIVERSITY BUILDINGS AS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD HAPPEN, IT'S NOT A PROBLEM AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED.

SARAH DONALDSON, IT'S KIND OF BOLD FOR DeWINE.

WHY NOT JUST SAY, LET THE FACTS PLAY OUT BEFORE I MAKE A DECISION?

>> HE DEFINITELY MADE A STATEMENT.

OF COURSE, GOVERNOR DeWINE IS A LAME DUCK GOVERNOR.

IT'S HIS LAST YEAR.

JESSIE AND I HAVE SEEN HIM MAYBE BE MORE OUTSPOKEN IN WAYS HE HASN'T BEEN WHEN HE'S BEEN RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION.

SO THAT'S A NOTE TO MAKE ABOUT THE CAMPAIGN DONATIONS AS WELL.

HIS CAMPAIGN ACCOUNT WAS CLOSED IN 2023, I BELIEVE.

HE DOESN'T PLAN TO RUN FOR OFFICE IN THE FUTURE.

THAT MONEY HAS TO GET DONATED ANYWAY.

SO IT'S A QUESTION OF THAT VERSUS SOMEONE LIKE SENATOR BERN MARINO, WHO DID RECEIVE MONEY FROM WEXNER AND SAID THEY DON'T INTEND TO DONATE IT.

IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION, BECAUSE YOU BRING UP THE POINT, AND I THINK GOING BACK TO WHAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT, THAT THIS HAS BECOME A VERY POLITICAL ISSUE.

IT'S A VERY OHIO ISSUE, TOO.

AND POLITICIANS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE HAVE 15 A LOT OF MONEY FROM THE WEXNERS AT ALL LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT.

FEDERAL, STATE, AND LOCAL.

MAYOR ANDREW GRINTHER.

>> HE'S HEAD HE'S NOT DONATING THAT MONEY.

SHERROD BROWN CLAIMS IT'S OVER $100,000.

THAT INCLUDES MONEY THAT WENT TO THE De WINE/HUSTED TICKET.

WAS THAT A WISE MOVE ON HUSTED'S PART TO DO THAT?

>> I THINK IT'S SOMETHING HE NEEDED TO DO.

I THINK HE NEEDS TO SHOW THIS IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM, AND HE'S GOING TO DEAL WITH IT.

I MEAN, THIS ISSUE GOES IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.

THERE'S A MAJOR DEMOCRAT DONOR, REID HOFFMAN, WHO WAS VERY CLOSE TO EPSTEIN, AND HE'S GIVEN A LOT OF MONEY TO DEMOCRAT CAUSES THAT HAVE THEN GIVEN MONEY TO SHERROD BROWN.

IT'S LIKE YOU SAID.

EVERYBODY'S INVOLVED IN THIS.

I FOUND IT AMAZING THAT JOYCE BEATTY WAS CALLING FOR THE EPSTEIN FILES TO BE RELEASED LAST YEAR.

BUT THEN SHE TOOK A $3,500 CHECK FROM LES WEXNER.

I MEAN, THAT TELLS YOU HOW -- I GUESS IT JUST WAS AN AUTOMATIC THING WITH ALL THESE POLITICIANS.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU WERE GOING TO RUN, YOU EXPECTED TO GET A CHECK FROM LES WEXNER, AND YOU JUST TOOK IT.

>> SHERROD BROWN GOT MONEY FROM ABIGAIL WEXNER.

SHOULD HE GIVE THAT MONEY BACK OR GIVE TO IT CHARITY?

>> I THINK HE SHOULD GIVE TO IT CHARITY.

AT THIS POINT, OPTICS MATTER AND TIMING'S GOING TO MATTER MORE.

THE MORE THIS STORY CONTINUES TO BUBBLE UP, IT'S NOT GOING TO GO AWAY.

I THINK HE HAS TO CONSIDER THAT.

THAT'S A REAL POSSIBILITY THAT HE PROBABLY JUST NEEDS TO GO AHEAD AND DONATE TO IT CHARITY.

>> THIS ELIMINATES -- I'M NOT VOTERS REALLY CARE BUT IT ELIMINATES FODDER FOR A NEGATIVE AD.

IF THE POLITICIAN DOESN'T GIVE THE MONEY AWAY THAT HE GOT FROM WEXNER, HIS OR HER OPPONENT IS GOING TO TARGET THEM?

>> YEAH, JUST GIVES YOU OPPONENT ONE MORE THING TO TALK ABOUT IN THEIR ATTACK ADS OR WITH MEDIA LIKE US.

I THINK IT WAS REALLY INTERESTING, THIS DIDN'T COME DOWN ALONG PARTY LINES.

REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS GIVING MONEY BACK, REPUBLICANS THAT SAY, NO, IT'S FINE, I THINK I'LL KEEP IT.

SO I THOUGHT THAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING.

>> OHIO STATE HAS GOTTEN CLOSE TO 300 REQUESTS TO TAKE WEXNER'S NAME OFF OF THE BUILDING, SARAH.

>> AND I SEE THAT -- IT'S AN INTERESTING ISSUE.

BECAUSE YOU LOOK AT MAYBE A CANDIDATE, LIKE A STATE REPRESENTATIVE WHO'S TAKEN A COUPLE THOUSAND FROM THE WEXNERS, AND THEN YOU LOOK AT OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY AND HOW MUCH WEXNER MONEY EXISTS IN THE OHIO STATE REALM.

I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A MUCH BIGGER LIFT FOR THE FOLKS WHO WANT TO GET THE WEXNER NAME OFF BUILDINGS TO SUCCEED IN SEEING THAT HAPPEN.

>> SO WHAT DOES IT TAKE, BOB?

WHAT WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN FOR OHIO STATE --YOU GO TO THE WEXNER CENTER, YOU CANNOT --LITERALLY, YOU CANNOT GO TO THE MEN'S ROOM WITHOUT WALKING BY HIS NAME FOUR TIMES.

>> REMEMBER, WE'VE HAD THIS INSTANCE WITH OHIO STATE IN THE PAST.

WE HAD THE BLACKWELLS.

ROGER BLACKWELL ACTUALLY WENT TO JAIL, OKAY?

AND IT'S STILL CALLED THE BLACKWELL.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK THAT WAS 7 MILLION BUCKS IF MEMORY SERVES.

>> OKAY.

>> 7 MILLION.

>> SO WHAT'S THE DOLLAR AMOUNT THAT YOU HIT THAT YOU'VE GOT TO TAKE THE NAME OFF?

>> $100 MILLION IS WHAT WEXNER GAVE TO GET HIS NAME ON THE HOSPITAL.

>> NAMING RIGHTS ARE NAMING RIGHTS.

IT'S KIND OF LIKE A CONTRACT, MAYBE.

>> BUT YOU KNOW, THE OVERALL BUDGET OF THE OSU MEDICAL CENTER, $100 MILLION IS NOT --IT'S A LOT OF MONEY, BUT IT'S NOT -- I THINK THEY HAVE LIKE $3 BILLION IN RESERVES.

SO IT'S NOT --YOU CAN PROBABLY SURVIVE.

>> THEY CAN SURVIVE.

AGAIN, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE OPTICS RIGHT NOW.

SO I THINK, AGAIN, IT'S SOMETHING TO CONSIDER.

DO I ACTUALLY THINK THEY'RE GOING TO DO IT?

PROBABLY NOT.

LIKE YOU SAID, HISTORY KIND OF REPEATS ITSELF.

MAYBE $10 MILLION IS THE THRESHOLD, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE $7 MILLION WHERE WEXNER IS.

>> REGARDLESS, IT IS OPTICS RIGHT NOW.

WEXNER, REGARDLESS OF YOUR OPINIONS ON HIM, HIS RELATIONSHIP TO EPSTEIN, HE HAS NOT BEEN CRIMINALLY CHARGED AT THIS POINT.

>> YES.

>> SO IT'S, YOU KNOW, AN INTERESTING DISCUSSION.

BUT IT IS A DIFFERENCE THAN SOMEONE LIKE BLACKWELL.

>> YEAH.

> >> NURSES ARE PROTESTING THIS WEEKEND.

THE BIG POWER OPENS 26 STORIES TALL, 800 ROOMS, BEAUTIFUL BUILDING, ACHIEVEMENT FOR THE MEDICAL CENTER.

BUT LESS NEXT WEAR, WHOSE NAME IS ON THE MEDICAL CENTER, HAS BASICALLY HAD TO SIT THIS CELEBRATION OUT.

>> YEAH, I ASSUME THE ESTATE IS NOT HAPPY ABOUT THIS PUBLICITY.

THEY WOULD RATHER NOT BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION AS THEY ROLL OUT THEIR NEW MEDICAL CENTER.

THE QUESTION IS, YOU KNOW, IS THE CONTRIBUTION THAT THE WEXNERS HAVE PROVIDED RECENTLY AND OVER THE YEARS, DOES THAT OFFSET THE CURRENT, YOU KNOW, PUBLIC RELATIONS HIT THAT THEY ARE TAKING?

>> DOES THE UNIVERSITY JUST LET THIS FADE AWAY?

OR DO THEY MAKE AN ANNOUNCEMENT TO SAY, WE DECIDED WE'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE THE NAME OFF?

>> IF I HAD TO LAY DOWN MONEY RIGHT NOW, I WOULD LAY DOWN THAT THEY ARE HOPING IT JUST KIND OF GOES AWAY.

THAT THEY CAN JUST WAIT THIS OUT.

BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THEY WANT TO TAKE THIS ON.

>> ALL RIGHT.

> >> OUR NEXT TOPIC.

IF THE ECONOMY IS THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE IN ANY POLITICAL CAMPAIGN, TAXES ARE OFTEN ISSUE NUMBER TWO.

IN OHIO THIS YEAR, BOTH ISSUES ARE PART OF THE AFFORDABILITY EQUATION THAT POLLS SHOW VOTERS CARE MOST ABOUT.

THE CANDIDATES FOR GOVERNOR SAY THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT TAXES BUT THE DETAILS ARE A LITTLE FEW AT THE MOMENT.

DEMOCRAT AMY ACTON SAYS SHE SUPPORTS A WORKING FAMILIES TAX CUT WITH PROPERTY TAX RELIEF.

SHE SAYS SHE'LL RELEASE A PLAN SOON.

AT FIRST, REPUBLICANS SUGGESTED A BOLD PLAN OF ELIMINATING INCOME TAXES AND PROPERTY TAXES.

HE HAS SINCE BACKED AWAY FROM THE PROPERTY TAX PROPOSE ALL BUT HE DOES PROMISE THE BIGGEST PROPERTY TAX ROLL-BACK IN STATE HISTORY.

AGAIN, THE DETAILS ARE STILL TO COME.

REPUBLICANS HAVE A HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE WHEN IT COMES TO TAXES IN MOST VOTERS' MINDS.

THEY'RE KNOWN AS TAX CUTTERS, DEMOCRATS ARE SPENDERS ON PROGRAMS.

HOW DOES AMY ACTON OVERCOME THAT?

>> SHE HAS TO COME UP WITH A PLAN.

THAT'S WHAT VOTERS WANT TO SEE.

AT THIS POINT, THEY'VE BOTH BEEN FLIRTING WITH THE IDEA OF RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR OVER A YEAR NOW.

VOTERS WANT TO SEE WHAT THE PLAN IS.

I THINK THE WAY AMY ACTON ACTUALLY COMBATS THIS IS COME OUT WITH A PLAN.

COME OUT WITH NUMBERS THAT ACTUALLY SHOW KIND OF THE RANGE FOR WHERE THE TAXES WILL BE CUT.

AND THEN ALSO SHOW HOW YOU'RE STILL GOING TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT SCHOOLS, ROADS, SAFETY, WHICH ARE JUST AS IMPORTANT AND NOT INCREASE ANOTHER TAX.

BECAUSE THAT'S GOING TO BE THE VERY IMPORTANT PART IS IF YOU'RE CUTTING SOMETHING, SOMETHING ELSE HAS TO GET CUT OR GET INCREASED.

>> SHE DOES SAY THE TAX CUTS THAT HAVE BEEN APPROVED OVER THE YEARS HAVE HELPED ER OHIOANS.

HOW CAN YOU FIX THAT WITHOUT RAISING TAXES ON WEALTHY OHIOANS?

>> THAT'S THE QUESTION SHE'S GOING TO HAVE TO ANSWER.

I DON'T KNOW IF SHE'S ACTUALLY GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO IT, BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU'RE STILL GOING TO HAVE A SUPERMAJORITY IN THE LEGISLATURE.

AMY ACTON'S GOING TO HAVE A FIGHT IF SHE DOES BECOME GOVERNOR.

>> JESSIE, WHERE IS VIVEK RAMASWAMY ON PROPERTY TAXES?

HE WANTS TO BRING PROPERTY TAXES TO ZERO.

MAYBE GOT AHEAD OF HIMSELF THERE.

BECAUSE IT'S 34, WHATEVER, BILLION DOLLARS THE STATE GETS, THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY.

>> YEAH, I THINK HE SCALED BACK FROM THAT INITIAL, LET'S GET RID OF ALL PROPERTY TAXES ARE THERE'S REALLY NO STATE IN THE NATION AT THIS POINT THAT DOESN'T HAVE PROPERTY TAXES.

SO YOU'RE RELYING ON SOME SORT OF MIX.

HE'S TALKING ABOUT SCALING THEM BACK DRAMATICALLY, BUT WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

I THINK IT'S A POPULAR IDEA.

WHO LIKES TO PAY TAXES?

I DON'T LIKE TO PAY TAXES, BUT WHAT DOES THAT PRACTICALLY MEAN?

AND ARE YOU LOSING SERVICES IF YOU GET RID OF TAXES?

>> HOW BIG A PROPERTY TAX CUT DOES HE HAVE TO PROPOSE TO REALLY MATTER TO VOTERS?

>> IT'S GOT TO BE PRETTY BIG.

AND IF HE WANTS TO DO AWAY WITH THE STATE INCOME TAX, YOU CAN'T DO THAT AND AT THE SAME TIME DROP PROPERTY TAXES ALL THAT MUCH.

AND IT'S A BIG ISSUE.

WE MAY ACTUALLY BE VOTING ON THAT ISSUE THIS NOVEMBER.

SO IF THEY MAKE THE BALLOT AND THAT IS ON THE ISSUE IN NOVEMBER, I MEAN, THAT ISSUE'S ON THE BALLOT IN NOVEMBER, IT'S GOING TO OVERWHELM OUR GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN.

AND I SAY IT'S GOING TO BE REALLY TOUGH FOR AMY ACTON, LIKE YOU SAID.

BECAUSE THIS ISN'T A NORMAL DEMOCRAT TALKING POINT.

I THINK BOTH OF THEM ARE GOING TO HAVE TO COME OUT WITH PLANS.

THEY BOTH ARE GOING TO HAVE TO SHOW HOW THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE UP THAT TAX MONEY.

AND HOW THEY GO ABOUT DOING THAT'S PROBABLY GOING TO AFFECT THEIR CAMPAIGNS A LOT.

>> AMY ACTON SORT OF SUGGESTED SHE'S LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, EXEMPTIONS IN THE PROPERTY TAX LIKE FOR SENIORS, THINGS LIKE THAT.

IS THAT GOING TO BE ENOUGH?

TO REFORM THAT SYSTEM?

>> I THINK --"A," STANLEY BRINGS UP A GOOD POINT, THERE'S STILL A SUPERMAJORITY IN THE OHIO LEGISLATURE.

SO EVEN IF AMY ACTON IS GOVERNOR, SHE IS GOING TO BE DOING A LOT OF NEGOTIATING WITH REPUBLICANS TO GET WHAT SHE WANTS DONE.

I DO THINK THAT THAT KIND OF IDEA IS JUST BITING AROUND THE EDGES.

YOU'VE HEARD LAWMAKERS --I MEAN, THERE WERE SOME PROPERTY TAX BILLS THAT WERE PASSED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS THAT LAWMAKERS HAVE CALLED, YOU KNOW, THE BIGGEST PROPERTY TAX REFORM THEY'VE DONE IN YEARS.

I THINK IT STILL REMAINS TO BE SEEN IF THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS TO VOTERS, BECAUSE OF COURSE, THE CAMPAIGN TO ABOLISH PROPERTY TAXES, THEY'RE MOVING FORWARD, GATHERING SIGNATURES, TRYING TO MAKE THE BALLOT.

>> JESSIE, OHIO'S TAX IS PRETTY CONSISTENTLY, IN SMALL INCREMENTS OVER THE PAST 20 YEARS.

THE ECONOMIC BENEFIT HAS BEEN MODEST AT BEST.

WE'RE STILL KIND OF MIDDLE OF THE ROAD AS FAR AS JOB CREATION AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

NOT ATTRACTING PEOPLE LIKE TEXAS IS WITH NO INCOME TAX.

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S REALLY THE POINT THAT DEMOCRATS AND POLICY MATTERS OHIO WILL POINT OUT SAYING, WHERE IS THIS GREAT ECONOMIC BOON FOR OUR INCOME TAX REDUCTIONS?

BUT THIS IS A POLICY LOVER.

THE REPUBLICANS HAVE CONTINUED TO POLL, LIKE I'VE SEEN THEM GO DOWN BRACKETS AND RATES AND SO FORTH SINCE I'VE BEEN HERE.

SO GETTING TO NO OR FLAT INCOME TAX, WHICH IS WHAT WE HAVE IN 2026, WAS CERTAINLY A PRIORITY OF THEIRS.

>> I DON'T SEE ANY CANDIDATE DOING THE WEALTH TAX LIKE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN CALIFORNIA AND NEW YORK.

HOW ABOUT NO MORE TAX ABATEMENTS FOR AMAZON AND GOOGLE?

WOULD THAT WORK?

AS A CAMPAIGN MESSAGE?

>> I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S GOING TO WORK, BECAUSE SOME FOLKS MIGHT SAY THAT'S A LOCAL ISSUE.

SO I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'D HAVE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE FOLKS ON THE LOCAL LEVEL IF THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY'RE WILLING TO DO.

COLUMBUS IS DEFINITELY A CITY THAT LEANS HEAVILY INTO TAX ABATEMENTS.

AND I SAID IT BEFORE ON THIS SHOW.

WE SHOULD BE TREATING THAT LIKE A ROOKIE CONTRACT.

WE'LL SEE HOW IT GOES, THEN LET'S RE-EVALUATE AFTER A COUPLE OF YEARS.

>> TAX ABATEMENTS.

IS THAT A GOOD WAY TO TACKLE THIS PROPERTY TAX DEBATE?

>> NO.

NO, NOT AT ALL.

I THINK IF IT WOULD PAT PASS, I THINK OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE GOING TO LOOK AT SALES TAX GOING UP.

I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE ALMOST EVERY SINGLE SCHOOL DISTRICT DO THIS EARNED INCOME TAX, WHICH MEANS, YOU KNOW --IT'S ON PEOPLE THAT ARE ACTUALLY GETTING SALARIES.

SO IT EXEMPTS ALL SENIOR CITIZENS.

THEY PUT IT ON THE BALLOT THIS PAST NOVEMBER, AND IT PASSED.

YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THAT ALL OVER THE STATE OF OHIO IF THEY DO AWAY WITH PROPERTY TAXES.

>> IF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS ITS WAY, OHIO'S FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY WILL PROSPER EVEN MORE THAN IT DOES NOW.

THIS WEEK, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ANNOUNCED PLANS TO BUILD A $33 BILLION NATURAL GAS FUELED POWER PLANT IN PORTSMOUTH.

THE SOUTHERN OHIO PLANT WOULD BE FINANCED BY A JAPANESE COMPANY AS PART OF A U. S. TRADE DEAL WITH JAPAN.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ALSO PLANS TO AWARD MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO TWO OHIO COAL-FUELED POWER PLANTS TO MODERNIZE THEM.

JESSIE BALM MERIT, IF THERE WAS ANY DOUBT THAT OHIO IS ALL-IN ON FOSSIL FUELS, IT'S BEEN REMOVED?

>> YEAH, AND PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN REALLY SUPPORTIVE OF NATURAL GAS AND COAL, AND OHIO, THOSE ARE INDUSTRIES THAT PEOPLE ARE, LIKE, HAPPY TO HAVE SOME ASSISTANCE FOR.

SO EVEN WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE PLANS LIKE THIS OVEC PLAN WAS PART OF AN EFFORT THAT GOT SUBSIDIZED IN THE MUCH-MALIGNED HOUSE BILL 6, MUCH-DISCUSSED HOUSE BILL 6, I SUPPOSE.

THESE ARE NOT NEW ISSUES.

THAT A LOT OF THE THESE THINGS MIGHT NEED SUBSIDIES.

BUT I THINK THEY'RE INDUSTRIES THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS DECIDED HE WANTS TO INVEST IN IN OHIO.

>> REPUBLICANS OFTEN SAY THEY ARE ALL OF THE ABOVE WHEN IT COMES TO ENERGY GENERATION.

>> YES, THEY ARE.

>> THERE'S NOT MUCH ELSE IN THE ALL THE ABOVE CATEGORY EXCEPT FOR COAL AND NATURAL GAS, AS FAR AS REPUBLICANS ARE CONCERNED?

>> YEAH, OR NUCLEAR.

I MEAN, THAT'S COME BACK NOW.

YOU KNOW, I LOVE IT.

OBVIOUSLY.

I THINK THE PRESIDENT CAMPAIGNED THIS LAST TIME ON THIS VERY THING.

AND I LIKE THE IDEA THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S GIVING THE MONEY TO THESE COAL COMPANIES OR COAL AREAS RATHER THAN THE, YOU KNOW, THOSE OF US THAT WERE PAYING OR ELECTRICITY BILLS, WHICH IS WHAT HOUSE BILL 6 WAS AT.

I'D RATHER HAVE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GIVING THEM MONTHAN ME.

>> PLANTS ARE OBSOLETE, LIKE AN OLD YOU HAVE TO KEEP POURING MONEY INTO?

>> WE NEED THAT GENERATION --WE NEED THAT ELECTRICITY TO BE GENERATED BECAUSE WE HAVE ALL THESE AMAZONS AND GOOGLES AND AI AND THEY'RE SAYING THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE ANYWHERE NEAR ENOUGH ENERGY.

>> IS THAT WHAT'S DRIVING THIS PARTLY, SARAH?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE DEMAND FOR NEW ENERGY GENERATION IN OHIO IS COMING FROM DATA CENTERS.

SPECIFICALLY.

LIKE NOT EVEN JUST SAYING THIS IDEA OF BIG TECH.

BECAUSE MAYBE SOMETIMES INTEL GETS FIELD FOLDED INTO THAT, THAT PLAN.

WHO KNOWS WHEN IT GETS BUILT?

AT THIS POINT I MAYBE I SHOULDN'T SAY THAT.

BUT THESE DATA CENTERS ARE HUGE, HUGE, HUGE DRIVERS OF DEMAND.

RIGHT NOW, OHIO IS NOT GENERATING AS MUCH ENERGY AS IT CONSUMES.

>> MIKE, YOU ACTUALLY SAID THIS BEST.

THIS IS AN OLD CAR, RIGHT?

WE NEED TO HAVE AN HONEST CONVERSATION, THOUGH.

ARE WE GOING TO CONTINUE TO INVEST IN THE FUTURE?

ARE WE GOING TO CONTINUE TO INVEST IN YESTERDAY?

THE WAY THAT WE'RE THINKING ABOUT THIS AROUND COAL, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED IN THE 1950s.

WE NEED TO BE PREPARED FOR 2050.

>> WIND AND SOLAR HAVE BEEN --TED STRICKLAND PASSED IT WHEN HE WAS GOVERNOR, PASSED 25% OF OUR ENERGY HAD TO BE GENERATED BY, WHAT?

RENEWABLE OR ALTERNATE SOURCES.

AND THOSE DAYS ARE LONG GONE.

> >> LET'S GET TO OUR FINAL OFF THE RECORD PARTING SHOTS, STANLEY?

>> BLACK HISTORY MONTH.

THIS IS THE 100th ANNIVERSARY OF IT.

IN THE WORDS OF JESSE JACKSON, LET'S KEEP HOPE ALIVE.

>> BOB?

>> THE FRANK ELLER ROSE, SECRETARY OF STATE, CERTIFIED THE BALLOT FOR THE MAY PRIMARY.

WE HAVE A LOT MORE PRIMARIES THAN WE NORMALLY DO.

WE HAVE FOUR STATEWIDE PRIMARIES ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, THREE ON THE DEMOCRAT SIDE.

IT'S BECAUSE OF TERM LIMITS.

EVERYBODY'S GETTING TERM LIMITED THIS CYCLE.

>> DO YOU LIKE PRIMARIES?

>> I LOVE PRIMARIES.

>> SARAH?

>> THIS TOPIC OF PRIMARIES, I WAS AT THE STATE GOP MEETING EARLIER THIS MORNING WHERE THEY WERE VOTING TO ENDORSE SOME CANDIDATES IN THE PRIMARIES, OR NOT TO ENDORSE SOME CANDIDATES.

SO DEFINITELY HEATING UP IN ELECTION WORLD.

>> YEAH, THERE IS AN ELECTION COMING UP IN JUST ABOUT TWO MONTHS.

THREE MONTHS, EARLY MAY.

JESSIE?

>> IN OTHER FORMS OF COMPETITION, TEAM USA REALLY JUST BROUGHT IT HOME WITH THE WOMEN'S HOCKEY TEAM.

AND GOLD MEDALIST ALYSA LIU, WHO IS, YOU KNOW, JUST CALM, COOL, AND COLLECTED.

>> UNIFYING FORCE OF THE OLYMPICS.

SPORTS.

NO SURPRISE, BUT THE CLEVELAND INDIANS AND THE CLEVELAND CAVALIERS, THE STADIUM OWNERS, DEVELOPERS, THEY WANT PART OF THE UNCLAIMED FUNDS TO HELP FIX UP THOSE STADIUMS.

OF COURSE, THAT'S IN COURT.

THEY MAY NOT GET IT AT ALL.

IN CHICAGO, THE BEARS ARE THREATENING TO MOVE TO INDIANA IF THEY DON'T GET A BETTER DEAL IN SUBURBAN CHICAGO.

THE STADIUM WOES CONTINUE NOT JUST IN OHIO, IN THE MIDWEST AND AROUND THE COUNTRY.

THAT IS "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" THIS WEEK.

CHECK OUT THE WOSU NEWS YOUTUBE CHANNEL.

GO TO YOUTUBE, SEARCH WOSU NEWS, AND THERE YOU CAN SEE EVERY EPISODE OF "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD. "

WE'RE ALSO ON OUR WEBSITE, WOSU.

ORG AND THE PBS APP.

FOR OUR CREW AND OUR PANEL, I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.