>>> LESSONS FROM WISCONSIN FOR OHIO.

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>>> WELCOME TO "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD."

PUNDITS OFTEN LOOK TO THE RESULTS OF ONE ELECTION IN ANOTHER STATE TO TRY TO GAUGE WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN HERE IN OHIO.

THIS WEEK THEY LOOK TO WISCONSIN.

THIS WEEK'S SUPREME COURT ELECTION FITS A PATTERN OF DIVIDED STATES SEEMING TO BACK ABORTION RIGHTS.

DEMOCRAT JANET PROTASIEWICZ EASILY BEAT HER REPUBLICAN OPPONENT.

PROTASIEWICZ OPENLY CAMPAIGNED THAT SHE SUPPORTS ABORTION RIGHTS AND ENDING GERRYMANDERING.

>> OUR STATE IS TAKING A STEP FORWARD TO A BETTER AND BRIGHTER FUTURE WHERE OUR RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS WILL BE PROTECTED.

[ cheers and applause ] AND WHILE THERE IS STILL WORK TO BE DONE, TONIGHT, WE CELEBRATE THIS HISTORIC VICTORY THAT HAS OBVIOUSLY REIGNITED HOPE IN SO MANY OF US.

>> OF COURSE, ABORTION RIGHTS AND GERRYMANDERING REFORM ARE ON THE MINDS OF OHIOANS.

BOB CLEGG, LOTS OF VARIABLES IN ELECTIONS, CANDIDATES, CAMPAIGN TURNOUT.

A LOT OF CONSERVATIVES INCLUDING "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" EDITORIAL BOARD SEE THIS ELECTION AS A WARNING FOR REPUBLICANS.

>> WELL, I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT OHIO, IT REALLY ISN'T BECAUSE WE JUST HAD AN ELECTION LAST NOVEMBER, LESS THAN FIVE MONTHS AFTER THIS U.S. SUPREME COURT OVERTURNED ROE V. WADE.

AND OUR GOVERNOR MIKE DeWINE WON HANDILY.

HE ACTUALLY SIGNED THE HEARTBEAT BILL, WHICH IS THE LAW OF OHIO RIGHT NOW.

HIS OPPONENT MADE ABORTION TO HER CREDIT.

SHE MADE ABORTION ONE OF HER MAJOR ISSUES.

BUT IT DIDN'T SEEM TO MATTER.

AND WE ALSO HAD OBVIOUSLY THREE SUPREME COURT SEATS THAT WERE UP, AND ALL THREE OF THEM WERE ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE WERE VERY PRO-LIFE.

IN FACT, SHARON KENNEDY, WHO GOT ELECTED CHIEF JUSTICE, WAS CRITICIZED FOR SPEAKING FOR RIGHT TO LIFE GROUPS A COUPLE YEARS AGO.

SO, OHIOANS, OBVIOUSLY, MADE THEIR VOICE KNOWN, AND ABORTION, IF IT WAS AN ISSUE, IT WASN'T THAT BIG OF AN ISSUE.

>> DERRICK, IS THIS A BELLWETHER FOR A POSSIBLE ABORTION VOTE?

WHEN THAT IS THE ONE ISSUE ON THE BALLOT COME NOVEMBER, IF THAT HAPPENS.

>> YOU KNOW, IT COULD BE, BUT I WANT TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING THAT BOB HAD MENTIONED.

THE GOVERNOR GOT RE-ELECTED FOR A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT REASONS.

HE GOT REELECTED BECAUSE HE HANDLED COVID VERY WELL.

THE ECONOMY WAS IN RELATIVELY GOOD SHAPE.

AND VOTERS MAY NOT NECESSARILY REMEMBER THE HEARTBEAT BILL.

SO, SAYING THAT THE HEARTBEAT BILL WAS A REASON WHY HE WAS RE-ELECTED.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S VALID.

>> THIS CAMPAIGN WAS DIFFERENT, AND THEY WERE CRITICIZED FOR OPENLY CAMPAIGNING ON ISSUES THAT SHE WILL HAVE TO RULE ON, ABORTION, REDISTRICTING REFORM.

THEY KIND OF DANCE AROUND THE ISSUES, BUT THEY DON'T ADDRESS THEM STRAIGHT ON LIKE SHE DID.

>> RIGHT.

SHE BROKE SOME NORMS, AND IT COULD CAUSE HER TROUBLE WHEN SHE'S ON THE BENCH.

GENERALLY SPEAKING, YOU'RE RIGHT, SUPREME COURT CANDIDATES AND JUDICIAL CANDIDATES ARE VERY MUTED IN BEING REALLY OVERT ON STAYING THEIR POSITION ON CERTAIN TOPICS BECAUSE THEY MAY HAVE TO RULE ON THOSE.

AND THE SUPREME COURT, IT'S A SEVEN-MEMBER COURT, AND IT DOES MAKE BIG, IMPACTFUL DECISIONS ON LOTS OF DIFFERENT TOPICS.

BORING STUFF LIKE TAXES AND INSURANCE POLICY, MY FAVORITE OPEN RECORDS, BUT THEN ALSO SOME KIND OF MORE SPICY STUFF LIKE ABORTION AND REDISTRICTING.

>> DO YOU SEE CANDIDATES DOWN THE ROAD, JO INGLES, SAYING, YOU KNOW, WHAT, IT WORKED FOR HER, MAYBE I SHOULD BE A LITTLE BIT MORE OUT FRONT.

AFTER ALL WE ARE ELECTING JUDGES SO WHY NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHERE THEY STAND ON THESE ISSUES?

>> WELL, IN NOVEMBER WE SAW FOR THE FIRST TIME PARTY LABELS NEXT TO THE JUSTICES' NAMES.

AND WE DID SEE THE JUSTICES, YOU KNOW, GIVING SOME ALLUSION OF WHERE THEY WOULD GO.

LIKE YOU POINTED OUT, THEY WERE RESPONDING TO RIGHT TO LIFE MATERIAL.

SO WE KIND OF GOT AN IDEA OF WHERE THEY ARE.

AND MAYBE IT'S GOING THAT DIRECTION IN THE FUTURE.

>> DO YOU THINK JENNIFER WOULD'VE HAD A BETTER CHANCE IN WISCONSIN IF SHE USED THAT STRATEGY?

>> SHE IS A VERY SEASONED CAMPAIGNER.

AND I THINK SHE JUST GOT CAUGHT.

KENNEDY IS A VERY POPULAR NAME IN OHIO.

SO I THINK THAT THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY JUSTICE BRUNNER HAD A HARD TIME WITH GETTING ELECTED.

ONE THING I WILL SAY IS THAT PEOPLE ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO THESE TYPES OF ISSUES.

AND PEOPLE ARE MAD ABOUT NOT HAVING A CHOICE.

PEOPLE ARE MAD ABOUT GERRYMANDERING.

SO I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THIS WOMAN WAS VICTORIOUS IN WISCONSIN.

>> BOB?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT, WHAT DERRICK JUST MENTIONED.

PEOPLE ARE GETTING MORE INVOLVED IN THESE RACES.

I LOOKED AT THE DROPOFF BETWEEN THE TOP OF THE TICKET, WHETHER IT'S A PRESIDENTIAL OR GUBERNATORIAL YEAR, AND THEN THE SUPREME COURT RACES.

THE DROPOFF WAS SOMEWHERE AROUND 20 TO 25%, WHICH IS ONE-FIFTH OR ONE-FOURTH OF THE VOTERS WEREN'T GOING DOWN THAT FAR.

THEY VOTED FOR THE PRESIDENT BUT THEN THEY DIDN'T VOTE DOWN THERE.

WITH THIS ELECTION IN 2022 FOR THE FIRST TIME PARTY LABELS, THE DROPOFF WAS ONE-HALF OF 1%.

THAT WAS IT.

AND THERE WERE SOME COUNTIES THAT I LOOKED AT WHERE MORE PEOPLE VOTED IN THE CHIEF JUSTICE RACE BETWEEN KENNEDY AND BRUNER THAN THEY VOTED IN THE GOVERNOR'S RACE BETWEEN DeWINE AND WHALEY, WHICH I FOUND AMAZING.

AND HERE IN OHIO, EVERYBODY TALKED ABOUT THE PARTY TABLES, WAS IT GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

I THINK JUST BY THE MERE FACT YOU HAD THE END OF THAT DROPOFF IS AMAZING.

>> PEOPLE ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO JUDICIAL RACES MORE, PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE RECENT SUPREME COURT DECISIONS ON ABORTION AND OTHER ISSUES AS WELL.

GOVERNOR DeWINE SAYS LAWMAKERS SHOULD CLARIFY OHIO'S ABORTION LAW TO MAKE IT MORE, QUOTE, SUSTAINABLE.

DeWINE IN 2019 SIGNED THAT SO-CALLED HEARTBEAT LAW WHICH BAN AS PORTION AT ABOUT SIX WEEKS.

COURTS HAVE PUT THAT LAW ON HOLD, AND ABORTION RIGHTS SUPPORTERS ARE TRYING TO GET THE PROPOSAL ON THE NOVEMBER BALLOT THAT WOULD GUARANTEE ABORTION RIGHTS UP TO FETAL VIABILITY.

DeWINE SAYS THE AMENDMENT DOES NOT REPRESENT THE OPINIONS OF MOST OHIOANS, BUT POLLS HAVE SHOWN THAT A MAJORITY OF OHIOANS DO SUPPORT THE ROE STANDARD.

DeWINE CALLS ON LAWMAKERS TO PASS LEGISLATION, ABORTION LEGISLATION THAT WILL STAND UP TO COURT CHALLENGES AND NOT BE OVERTURNED BY VOTERS.

JO INGLES, YOU SPOKE TO THE GOVERNOR IS HE LOOKING AT THE 15-WEEK, A 12-WEEK BAN?

>> HE WOULDN'T GIVE ME SPECIFICS ON THAT, MIKE SO I DON'T THINK I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HE'S LOOKING FOR.

BUT HE DID SAY HE WANTS CLARIFICATION FOR DOCTORS TO BE ABLE TO USE.

THERE IS AN EXCEPTION IN THE CURRENT BAN THAT ALLOWS FOR THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER.

BUT THE DOCTORS, AT LEAST THAT WERE CITED IN THE CASE IN HAMILTON COUNTY WHERE THIS BAN WAS PUT ON HOLD, THE DOCTORS WERE SAYING THEY DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT LINE WAS.

DO THEY HAVE TO LET A WOMAN GET SEPTIC BEFORE HER LIFE IS IN DANGER?

AND DeWINE HAS SPOKEN TO WANTING MORE CLARIFICATION BECAUSE THE LAW DOES HAVE SOME AREAS WHERE IT'S VAGUE.

THAT'S WHY IT WAS PUT ON HOLD.

SO, WE'LL SEE.

BUT AS FAR AS BEING SPECIFIC AS TO WHAT ELSE MIGHT MAKE IT PALATABLE TO VOTERS, HE DIDN'T GO THERE.

>> HE SIGNED THE HEARTBEAT FAIR.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE STANDING HIM, WHOLEHEARTEDLY SUPPORTED IT IN 2019.

NOW HE'S BACKING AWAY FROM IT.

>> WELL, I THINK GOVERNOR DeWINE WOULD PREFER TO HAVE THE LAW IN PLACE AND THE BAN IN PLACE BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S HIS TRUE BELIEF.

HOWEVER, I THINK HE'S ALSO A PRETTY ASTUTE POLITICIAN WHO'S GOT GOOD INSTINCTS.

AND HE SAYS THAT THE LAW IS OUT OF STEP WITH WHAT OHIOANS WOULD FIND ACCEPTABLE, AND HE ALSO THINKS THAT THE BALLOT ISSUE, IT'S IN THE FIELD NOW THAT THAT WOULD ALSO BE OUT OF STEP.

SO HE'S TRYING TO SEE IF THERE'S A WAY TO MAYBE EASE OFF A LITTLE BIT, SIGNAL TO THE LAWMAKERS THAT THAT MIGHT BE A SMART MOVE.

THE LAWMAKERS SEEN MUCH MORE KEEN ON PUTTING AWAY, GOING TO THE BALLOT IN AUGUST TO BLUNT THAT.

>> IS THERE A WAY TO CONVINCE LAWMAKERS TO CLARIFY OR MAYBE SOFTEN, IF THAT'S THE RIGHT WORD, THE HEARTBEAT LAW?

>> YEAH.

I THINK THERE IS A WAY, AND I THINK THE BALLOT ISSUE THAT THE PRO-ABORTION PEOPLE ARE PASSING AROUND TO GET SIGNATURES IS GOING TO BE THE MOTIVATING FACTOR.

I WONDER IF THE GOVERNOR IS HINTING AT SOMETHING LIKE HAVING THE LEGISLATURE ADOPT THEIR OWN AMENDMENT TO GO ON THE NOVEMBER BALLOT THAT MAY BE AT 15 WEEKS.

BECAUSE A LOT OF THE POLLING I SAW, THE MOST POPULAR OPTION WAS 15 WEEKS.

AND I'M WONDERING IF HE'S GOING THAT DIRECTION WHERE HE WANTS HIM TO PUT ON AN OPPOSING AMENDMENT ON THE NOVEMBER BALLOT, WHICH THEY HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO DO, WHICH WOULD BE MAYBE AT 15 WEEKS, BUT ALSO WOULD REQUIRE PARENTAL CONSENT.

BECAUSE THE OTHER AMENDMENT THAT'S BEING CIRCULATED RIGHT NOW DOES NOT HAVE PARENTAL CONSENT.

AND IF YOU POLL ON THAT ISSUE ALONE, IT'S GIGANTIC IN FAVOR OF IT.

>> THAT'S WHY WE'RE SEEING ADS.

>> YEAH.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE TWO AMENDMENTS BOTH ON THE BALLOT AT THE SAME TIME, IF THEY BOTH PASS, WHICHEVER ONE RECEIVES MORE VOTES PREVAILS.

AND I THINK THE THINKING WOULD BE THAT A 15-WEEK WITH PARENTAL CONSENT COULD GET MORE VOTES THAN WHAT THEY'RE PASSING OUT RIGHT NOW.

>> DERRICK, DO YOU THINK CONSERVATIVE LAWMAKERS WOULD GO FOR THE 15-WEEK LIMIT?

DO YOU THINK PROGRESSIVE VOTERS AND LAWMAKERS WOULD GO FOR 15 WEEKS?

>> THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

AS BOB HAD MENTIONED, THE 15-WEEK IS THE PREFERENCE.

THE LEGISLATURE, IF THE BALLOT MEASURE WAS PASSED BY THE LEGISLATURE, THEY HAVE MORE CONTROL OVER WHAT THE LANGUAGE WILL LOOK LIKE.

SO, THAT'S GOING TO GIVE THEM A LITTLE MORE LEEWAY.

BUT, YOU KNOW, 15-WEEK WOULD PROBABLY BE THEIR PREFERENCE.

>> THIS IS NOT AN AREA THAT PEOPLE REALLY WANT TO COMPROMISE ON, THOUGH.

PEOPLE HAVE VERY HARD CAMPS THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO LEAVE.

>> AND ALSO IF YOU LOOK AT THE OHIO ABORTION REPORT, MOST OF THE ABORTIONS ARE DONE IN THAT 15-WEEK OR EARLIER TIME LINE.

SO, YOU'RE GOING TO STILL BE ALLOWING MOST OF THE ABORTIONS.

SO, I COULD SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST ABORTION SAYING, HEY, WAIT, THAT DOESN'T ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING REALLY.

>> WHAT WAS THE GOVERNOR'S MOTIVATION IN FLOATING THIS OUT HERE THIS WEEK?

IS HE GOING TO CAMPAIGN FOR THIS?

IS HE GOING TO PUSH HARD FOR THIS?

OR IS HE OFFERING A LITTLE HELPFUL HINT OR SUGGESTION FOR LAWMAKERS?

>> WELL, HE SAYS HE'S AFRAID THAT THE BALLOT ISSUE WILL GO THROUGH, AND OHIO WOULD BE STUCK.

AND HE'S, LIKE, HAVING SOMETHING THAT HAS SOME MORE LEEWAY IN IT IS BETTER THAN BEING STUCK WITH SOMETHING THAT BASICALLY WOULD HAVE WHAT WE HAVE NOW, THIS KIND OF A ROE THING.

THAT'S WHAT WOULD BE IN THIS, IF IT PASSES.

SO, HE'S LOOKING AT IT FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE.

>> LAWMAKERS ARE ON EASTER BREAK.

WHEN THEY RETURN, THEY ARE EXPECTED TO AGAIN CONSIDER WHETHER TO HOLD AN AUGUST ELECTION TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION.

MANY REPUBLICANS SUPPORT MAKING IT HARDER TO CHANGE THE STATE'S GUIDING DOCUMENT.

THEY WANT TO INCREASE THE SIGNATURE REQUIREMENTS AND MANDATE THAT AMENDMENTS GET 60% OF THE VOTE TO PASS.

OF COURSE, LAWMAKERS WOULD HAVE TO CHANGE A STATE LAW THAT WENT INTO EFFECT JUST THIS WEEK.

AND THAT LAW OUTLAWS MOST AUGUST ELECTIONS.

DERRICK, IT IS ADMITTEDLY BY THEM AN ATTEMPT TO THWART THE NOVEMBER ABORTION ISSUE.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THOSE WAVERING REPUBLICANS ARE AFTER COMING BACK FROM EASTER BREAK?

>> WELL, THEY OBVIOUSLY WANT THIS TO PASS.

I MEAN, IT'S BEEN A LOT OF CONTROVERSY OVER THIS ISSUE BECAUSE BASICALLY YOU'RE TAKING A 50 PLUS ONE, 50% PLUS ONE MEASURE OF PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO PASS A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT TO 60%.

SO, WE'RE ESSENTIALLY MAKING IT HARDER FOR PEOPLE TO EXERCISE THEIR RIGHTS TO VOTE AND THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION.

SO, YES, IT'S GOING TO BE A VERY CONTROVERSIAL THING WHEN THEY COME BACK.

>> WORD IS ABOUT A DOZEN LAWMAKERS THAT ARE ON THE FENCE.

IS THAT WHAT THIS IS GOING TO COME DOWN TO?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S GOING TO CLEAR THE SENATE WITHOUT ANY PROBLEM.

I THINK IN THE HOUSE, THOUGH, THEY JUST HAVE A LOT OF FACTIONS WITHIN THE GOP BETWEEN SPEAKER DEREK MARON CAMP.

THE REPUBLICANS REALLY HAVE TO COME TOGETHER ON THIS.

IT'S VERY TRICKY TERRAIN.

BECAUSE THEY SAID THAT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE AUGUST ELECTIONS, THAT THEY WERE TOO COSTLY, AND THERE WAS TOO LOW OF TURNOUT.

NOW THEY WANT AUGUST ELECTIONS TO SERVE THEIR OWN PURPOSE.

THEY'RE ASKING VOTERS TO GIVE UP VOTER POWER THAT THE VOTERS HAVE HELD FOR 120 YEARS.

>> HOW HARD TO SELL IS THIS?

>> I THINK IT'S A PRETTY HARD SELL.

LET ME TELL YOU.

I'VE BEEN IN FAVOR OF 60% FOR 15 YEARS.

I STARTED LIKING THAT IDEA WHEN THE CASINO GUYS PUT THEIR AMENDMENT ON THE BALLOT WHERE THEY GOT TO DICTATE THE WHOLE STRUCTURE OF HOW MUCH, YOU KNOW, THE STATE WAS GOING TO GET.

THEY EVEN PUT IN THE EXACT LOCATIONS FOR EACH OF THE CASINOS.

WHEN I SAW THAT, I THOUGHT, COME ON, THIS IS HOW EASILY OUR SYSTEM CAN BE PLAYED.

SO I'VE BEEN A PROPONENT OF THAT WHOLE IDEA FOR THAT LONG.

BUT I AGREE WITH YOU, I THINK THAT'S WHY I MENTIONED THE OTHER WHAT I THINK IS THE OTHER WAY TO DEAL WITH THIS WHOLE ABORTION ISSUE, WHICH IS JUST PUT A COMPETING AMENDMENT ON THE NOVEMBER BALLOT.

I THINK THAT'S A MUCH EASIER AND MORE EXPLAINABLE THAN TRYING TO TAKE IT UP TO 60%.

>> THE GOVERNOR WOULD HAVE TO SIGN A BILL INTO LAW THAT WOULD MOVE THE AUGUST ELECTION.

ANY IDEA WHERE THE GOVERNOR STANDS ON THAT?

>> HE'S KIND OF BEEN -- HE HASN'T REALLY ANSWERED THAT STRAIGHT UP.

BUT HERE'S ANOTHER THING TO CONSIDER.

THERE ARE ABOUT 175 GROUPS OUT THERE WHO HAVE ALREADY COME OUT IN OPPOSITION OF THIS IF IT WERE TO MAKE IT TO THE BALLOT.

SO, I MEAN, YOU WOULD HAVE A LOT OF TURNOUT FROM PEOPLE WHO DON'T ORDINARILY TURN OUT IN AN AUGUST ELECTION.

AND THIS IS NOT POPULAR AMONG LARGE SWATHS OF PEOPLE.

AND IF THEY TURN OUT, THEY COULD KILL IT ANYWAY.

>> BUT THE AUGUST ELECTION WILL HAVE A LOWER TURNOUT, IT JUST WILL.

THERE'S NO PRESIDENT ON THE BALLOT.

AND THAT'S WHERE GRASSROOTS ORGANIZATIONS CAN COME OUT, CHURCHES.

AND THAT'S I THINK WHAT THE ABORTION RIGHTS OPPONENTS ARE BANKING ON IS THE CHURCHES AND THE MOTIVATED FOLKS WILL COME OUT IN AUGUST.

WILL PROGRESSIVES AND ABORTION RIGHTS SUPPORTERS MATCH THEM?

>> ANY TIME YOU HAVE AN ELECTION THAT'S OUTSIDE THE NORM THAT'S SPECIAL, IT'S GOING TO BE A MUCH LOWER VOTER TURNOUT.

SO, IF YOU HAVE ANY TYPE OF ORGANIZED EFFORT, YOU CAN KILL THAT PIECE OF -- OR WHATEVER'S ON THE BALLOT.

YOU KNOW, TO JO'S POINT, THERE'S A NUMBER OF GROUPS THAT HAVE COME OUT IN OPPOSITION TO THIS.

>> WHAT'S THE TIME LINE ON THIS?

WHAT IS THE DEADLINE?

>> I THOUGHT IT WAS MAY IF THEY WANT TO MAKE THE AUGUST BALLOT THEY HAVE TO PASS IT SOMETIME EARLY MAY, LIKE THE FIRST WEEK.

>> LIKE MAY 10th OR SO.

>> AND THAT'S ANOTHER THING ABOUT DOING IT IN NOVEMBER AND THEY HAVE MORE TIME.

THE LEGISLATURE HAS MORE TIME TO PUT THEIR OWN ABORTION AMENDMENT ON A NOVEMBER BALLOT.

>> IF THERE WERE TWO AMENDMENTS ON THE BALLOT, VOTERS MIGHT BE CONFUSED, AND WHEN THEY'RE CONFUSED, THEY TEND TO VOTE NO.

IS THAT A STRATEGY?

>> IT COULD BE.

BUT I'LL TELL YOU IF THOSE TWO AMENDMENTS, TWO DIFFERENT ABORTION AMENDMENTS ARE ON THE BALLOT, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE BOTH SIDES SPENDING A LOT OF MONEY EDUCATING THEIR PEOPLE.

AND IT'S GOING TO BE A VOTE YES ON ONE, VOTE NO ON THE OTHER, AND FOR BOTH SIDES.

SO I DON'T THINK IT'LL BE ALL THAT CONFUSING.

I THINK BY THE TIME ALL THAT MONEY'S GOING TO BE SPENT, EVERYBODY WILL KIND OF KNOW WHERE THEY'RE AT.

>> I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY, LISTEN, I THINK IF THIS DOES GET TO THE AUGUST BALLOT, THE REPUBLICANS ARE PLAYING RUSSIAN ROULETTE WITH A LOT OF THINGS HERE.

BECAUSE IF THIS MEASURE GOES DOWN, THIS IS GOING TO GALVANIZE THE FOLKS THAT ARE NOT IN FAVOR OF ABORTION, YOU KNOW, ABORTION RIGHTS BEING ON THE BALLOT.

AND THEN THAT CAN SPILL OVER INTO HOUSE RACES AND OTHER RACES AROUND THE STATE.

>> WELL, BUT THE ABORTION AMENDMENT PASSES IN NOVEMBER, GUESS WHAT, ABORTION GOES AWAY AS AN ISSUE.

SO WHEN ALL THOSE MEMBERS ARE UP IN 2024, IT'S NO LONGER AN ISSUE.

>> WILL IT REALLY GO AWAY, BOB?

>> WELL, I WAS IN FAVOR OF DOING AWAY WITH ROE V. WADE.

YOU KNOW WHY?

BECAUSE I'VE ALWAYS SAID I WANTED EACH INDIVIDUAL STATE TO MAKE THAT DECISION.

AND WHATEVER DECISION OHIO MAKES, THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE.

SO THAT'S IT.

>> DO YOU THINK, REGARDLESS -- >> AT LEAST FOR TEN YEARS, ANYWAY?

>> NO, IT'S NOT GOING TO GO AWAY BECAUSE IT'S A HEARTY EVERGREEN.

>> IN THAT 12 TO 15-WEEK RANGE, TOOK THEM A LITTLE WHILE.

ANYWAY, TESTS SHOW THAT ROUGHLY ONE-THIRD OF OHIO THIRD GRADERS CANNOT READ PROFICIENTLY.

GOVERNOR DeWINE BLAMES READING CURRICULUMS IN MANY OHIO SCHOOLS.

DeWINE FAVORS A PHONICS-BASED APPROACH TO READING INSTRUCTION, SOMETHING HE AND OTHERS CALL A SCIENCE-BASED APPROACH.

HIS STATE BUDGET PROPOSAL PUSHES SCHOOLS TO USE A CURRICULUM APPROVED BY STATE EDUCATION OFFICIALS, RATHER THAN USING A WHOLE-WORD APPROACH WHICH RELIES ON MEMORIZATION AND CONTEXT TO HELP STUDENTS READ.

WELL, THE GOVERNOR HAS BEEN ON A CAMPAIGN.

HE'S GOING FROM SCHOOL TO SCHOOL PUSHING THIS.

WHAT'S HIS MOTIVATION?

>> WELL, I THINK HE SEES THE NUMBERS, AND IT WAS 33% OF THIRD GRADERS WEREN'T READING AT A PROFICIENT LEVEL, THAT WAS PREPANDEMIC.

AND NOW IT'S UP TO 40%.

HE SAID WE'VE BEEN USING THIS WHOLE-LANGUAGE APPROACH IN OHIO FOR A WHILE AND IT'S NOT WORKING.

SO HE'S BEEN CONVINCED THAT CHANGING COURSE TO THE PHONICS-BASED APPROACH IS THE SMART WAY TO GO.

LEARNING TO READ IS FUNDAMENTAL FOR SUCCESS IN ACADEMICS AND IN LIFE.

SO IT'S REALLY -- AND IT'S CRUCIAL THAT KIDS LEARN THIS.

AND IT KIND OF FITS WITH THE DeWINE BRAND AS WELL, GIVEN THAT HIS WIFE IS A MAJOR ADVOCATE OF THE IMAGINATION LIBRARY AND READING AND CHILDREN'S ISSUES OVERALL.

>> BRINGING IN DOLLY PARTON TO PUSH READING LITERACY.

WE HAD THE THIRD READING GUARANTEE.

IT PROBABLY DIDN'T WORK BECAUSE WE'RE MOVING ON FROM THAT.

>> BASICALLY THAT HELD KIDS BACK IF THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO READ AT A CERTAIN LEVEL.

THAT WENT AWAY, AND THAT'S LIKELY NOT TO COME BACK.

BUT THE THING IS THAT A LOT OF THE TEACHERS UNIONS AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE REPRESENTING TEACHERS WHO ACTUALLY HAVE TO TEACH SAID LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THIS AND REALLY LOOK AT WHAT WORKS, NOT INSTEAD OF EMBRACING, LIKE, ONE THING LIKE PHONICS OR WHOLE LANGUAGE.

MAYBE LOOK AT EVERYTHING AND TAKE A MORE -- BECAUSE KIDS -- YOU KNOW, MIGHT USE TWO OR THREE METHODS.

>> I'M TOLD THAT THE PHONICS SYSTEM IS MUCH BETTER FOR CHILDREN WITH DYSLEXIA, WHICH IS A PRETTY PREDOMINANT DISORDER.

AND I THINK THAT IT'S EXPENSIVE IF YOU WANT TO GO WITH MULTIPLE APPROACHES.

EITHER YOU HAVE THE BOOKS AND THE INSTRUCTION MATERIALS FOR THIS APPROACH OR THAT APPROACH.

>> THAT'S WHY HE'S ALLOCATED QUITE A BIT OF MONEY IN THE BUDGET.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE GOVERNOR'S BUDGET, 64 MILLION FOR THIS SCIENCE AND READING CURRICULUM, 43 MILLION OVER THE NEXT TWO YEARS FOR INSTRUCTION FOR TEACHERS, AND THEN ANOTHER 12 MILLION FOR LITERACY COACHES, ABOUT A HUNDRED LITERACY COACHES.

THE NUMBERS ARE WHAT THEY ARE, AS LAURA SAID.

HOPEFULLY THIS APPROACH WILL IMPROVE THE NUMBERS IN OHIO.

BUT THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

I DO BELIEVE SOME BALANCED APPROACH OF THIS, AND IN THE OTHER TRADITIONAL WAY THAT TEACHING WILL TEACH KIDS THE BEST.

>> BOB, I REMEMBER LEARNING THROUGH HOW TO READ.

AND I STARTED WITH FUN WITH DICK AND JANE, WHICH IS THE WHOLE LANGUAGE APPROACH THAT'S REPEATING, MEMORIZATION, YOU SEE THEM RUNNING, YOU SEE THE WORD "RUN," YOU ASSOCIATE WITH THAT.

BUT WHEN I GOT TO SCHOOL, I REMEMBER MY PHONICS BOOK.

IS IT A COMBINATION?

>> IT WAS A COMBINATION.

I GOT TO GIVE THE GOVERNOR CREDIT FOR LOOKING AT THIS AND SEEING THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM, AND SOMETHING'S GOT TO BE DONE AND DONE NOW.

I DIDN'T KNOW UNTIL LAURA JUST SAID THAT HAD GONE UP FROM 30, 33% UP TO 40% NOW.

WE CAN'T HAVE ALMOST HALF OUR KIDS IN THIRD GRADE NOT KNOWING HOW TO READ.

SO I GIVE HIM CREDIT.

AND OBVIOUSLY WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW ISN'T WORKING.

LET'S DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

>> DOES THIS CURRICULUM CHANGE -- DOES THIS DECISION BELONG IN THE STATE BUDGET?

>> IT'S GOING IN THE BUDGET BECAUSE IT REQUIRES AN ALLOCATION.

THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT ARE ABSOLUTE IN THIS LIFE.

DEATH, TAXES, AND A CHANGE IN EDUCATION POLICY.

[ laughter ] SO, IT'S NOT OFF BRAND TO HAVE THE LEGISLATURE WEIGH IN ON THIS.

>> AND HE WOULD NEED THE REFORM BILL TO BECOME LAW, THE ONE THAT ALLOWS HIS EDUCATION DIRECTOR RATHER THAN THE STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION?

>> THIS IS PART OF THAT WHOLE PACKAGE.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT COULD BE DONE WITHOUT THAT.

BUT IT'S PART OF WHAT HE ENVISIONS.

OHIO STATE HAS A BIG STAKE IN THIS.

THEY'VE BEEN PIONEERS IN WHAT THEY CALL READING RECOVERY, WHICH USES THE WHOLE LANGUAGE METHOD TO HELP FOLKS WHO ARE BEHIND ON READING.

WHAT ROLE ARE THEY PLAYING IN THIS?

ARE THEY ADVOCATING BEHIND THE SCENES?

DO WE KNOW?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I KNOW THAT THAT'S BEEN A BIG ANCHOR.

IT'S BEEN AN ANCHOR HERE AT OHIO STATE.

AND THEN I THINK IN THE PHONICS CAMP, IT'S JEB BUSH HAS GOT A STAKE IN IT.

>> AND THE COLUMBUS CREW.

AND THERE WAS A PUBLIC RADIO PODCAST THAT CAST A CRITICAL LIGHT ON THE BUSINESS OF THE WHOLE LANGUAGE.

AND IT'S INTERESTING TO WATCH.

ANYWAY, LET'S GET TO OUR FINAL OFF THE RECORD PARTING SHOTS.

AND, BOB CLEGG, YOU GO FIRST.

>> GUESS WHAT, THE 2024 CAMPAIGN HAS COME TO OHIO.

THIS COMING THURSDAY FLORIDA GOVERNOR RON DeSANTIS IS GOING TO MAKE TWO STOPS IN OHIO.

HE'S GOING TO DO LINCOLN DAY BREAKFAST IN AKRON, WHICH I'M GOING TO BE AT.

AND THEN HE'S GOING TO GO DOWN TO BUTLER COUNTY AND DO A TRADITIONAL LINCOLN DAY DINNER DOWN THERE.

SO, THIS IS A FIRST THAT I KNOW OF THAT WE'VE GOTTEN SOME CANDIDATE ACTION HERE IN OHIO.

>> SOUTHWEST OHIO, ONE TRIP.

>> THE STATE HOUSE IS RELATIVELY QUIET, BUT THAT'S ONLY BECAUSE THEY'RE ON A BREAK FOR A COUPLE WEEKS.

BUT WHEN THEY COME BACK, THEY ARE LOOKING AT 3,000 PLUS AMENDMENTS TO THE OHIO STATE BUDGET THAT THEY HAVE TO CONSIDER.

>> ALL RIGHT.

YOU HAVE TO COVER ALL OF THEM.

>> YEAH.

GOVERNOR DeWINE'S LOOKING AT MAYBE HAVING SOME SORT OF MERGER BETWEEN MARKETING AND TOURISM.

AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE.

BUT HE SAID BASICALLY THEY'RE ALL PROMOTING OHIO.

>> AND, LAURA?

>> TWO QUICK OBSERVATIONS.

ONE, THIS WEEK IS THE 30th ANNIVERSARY OF THE RESPECTFULLIA THE AT LUCASVILLE.

AND THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF CHANGES IN OHIO PRISONS SINCE THEN.

BUT IT REMAINS TO BE -- IT'S A VERY TOUGH JOB FOR PRISON WORKERS TO DO DAY IN AND DAY OUT.

AND THE OTHER OBSERVATION IS THE EXPULSION OF LARRY HOUSEHOLDER TOOK TEN MONTHS.

AND THE EXPULSION OF THE TWO LAWMAKERS IN TENNESSEE TOOK ABOUT TEN MINUTES.

AN INTERESTING CONTRAST.

>> THAT WILL BE A TOPIC OF MANY, MANY WEEKS TO COME.

I PREDICT THAT "FUN WITH DICK & JANE," THE BOOK AND BOTH THE MOVIE WILL SEE INCREASED SALES IF THIS DEBATE OVER EDUCATION POLICY CONTINUES.

ANYWAY, THAT IS "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" FOR THIS WEEK.

WE ASK YOU TO CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK.

FOLLOW US THERE.

AND YOU CAN WATCH US ANY TIME ON YOUR TIME AT OUR WEBSITE WOSU.ORG/COTR OR THROUGH THE PBS VIDEO APP.

FOR OUR CREW AND FOR OUR PANEL, I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.

CAPTIONS PROVIDED BY WOSU-TV, THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY t THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY -- Captions by VITAC -- www.vitac.com -- Captions by VITAC -- www.vitac.com !

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