>>> WELL, THE AUTHOR STEPHANIE LAND BECAME AN OVERNIGHT SENSATION WITH HER DEBUT MEMOIR "MAID."

A LONG, HARD LOOK AT HER IMPOVERISHED BEGINNINGS AND TRIAL SHE FACED AS A SINGLE PARENT.

IT BECAME A BESTSELLER AND WAS TURNED INTO A HUGELY SUCCESSFUL NETFLIX SERIES.

WE COVERED THAT HERE ON THE SHOW.

NOW LAND IS BACK WITH A SEQUEL CALLED "CLASS" WHICH DIGS INTO HOW HER STRUGGLES DIDN'T END ONCE SHE CGOT INTO COLLEGE WHIC IS WHERE "MAID" ENDED.

IN FACT, MANY THINGS BECAME HARDER.

SHE TELLS MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT IT ALL.

THIS IS ABOUT POVERTY, JOBS, ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA CALLED CHASING THE DREAM.

>> THANK YOU.

STEPHANIE LAND, THANK YOU FOR TO US.

>> THANK YOU.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> I WAS THINKING ABOUT YOUR LAST BOOK, "MAID."

IT MADE HUGE WAVES.

IT WAS A "NEW YORK TIMES" BESTSELLER.

LED TO THIS NETFLIX SERIES THAT AT THE TIME ONE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL SERIES THEY HAD EVER HAD.

I JUST, YOU KNOW, I WAS THINKING ABOUT IT AND GOING BACK TO THE BOOK AND IT ENDS WITH, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU WOULD THINK IS THE HOLLYWOOD ENDING.

YOU GET TO GO TO COLLEGE, WHICH HAD BEEN YOUR DREAM.

BUT IT KIND OF WASN'T.

WHY WASN'T IT THAT HOLLYWOOD ENDING WE ALL THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE?

>> WELL, "MAID" ENDED ON A LITERAL HIGH NOTE.

WE CLIMBED UP A MOUNTAIN AND HAD THIS, LIKE, JOYOUS MOMENT, AND OVER THE YEARS PEOPLE HAVE SAID, LIKE, I'M SO GLAD YOU HAD YOUR HAPPY ENDING.

I JUST KIND OF THOUGHT, LIKE, OH, I GOT KIND OF REALLY HARD AFTER THAT.

AND IT WAS BECAUSE I HAD TO GO TO CLASS IN PERSON.

OF COURSE, THAT LIMITED THE AMOUNT OF HOURS I COULD WORK.

AND GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS DON'T COUNT THE HOURS THAT YOU SPEND IN CLASS AS WORK FOR WORK REQUIREMENTS.

SO THE AMOUNT OF ASSISTANCE THAT I WAS GETTING FOR FOOD AND HOUSING AND EVERYTHING WAS DIMINISHED BECAUSE OF THAT.

>> THE STORY PICKS UP WITH YOU MOVING TO MISSOULA, MONTANA, WITH YOUR THEN-4-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER YOU CALL AMELIA.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THAT'S A THROUGH LINE BETWEEN THIS BOOK AND YOUR PREVIOUS BOOK JUST HOW PRECARIOUS IT ALL IS.

EVEN WHEN YOU'RE DOING WHAT EVERYBODY SAYS IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, RIGHT?

JUST KIND OF WALK US THROUGH IT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO, SAY, ENROLL, FOR EXAMPLE.

TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

>> WELL, THE THING THAT I IMMEDIATELY WAS SURPRISED BY WAS I THOUGHT THE RESIDENCY, YOU KNOW, HOW YOU GET A SMALLER AMOUNT OF TUITION IF YOU'RE A RESIDENT OF THE TOWN WHERE THE SCHOOL IS.

I THOUGHT THAT BECAUSE I HAD COMPLETELY MOVED MY WHOLE ENTIRE LIFE THERE, THAT MADE ME AN IMMEDIATE RESIDENT.

BUT THAT WASN'T THE CASE.

SO I HAD TO PROVE THAT I WAS A RESIDENT OVER A YEAR BEFORE I WOULD GET THE DECREASED TUITION.

I THINK WHAT I REALLY DIDN'T REALIZE WOULD BE SUCH A HUGE NEED WOULD BE THE CHILDCARE.

THE CLASSES, YOU KNOW, THEY TRIED TO MAKE THEM, YOU KNOW, KIND OF BLEND TOGETHER SO I COULD GROUP THEM INTO TWO DAYS A WEEK OR SOMETHING AND I COULD WORK MONDAY, WEDNESDAY, FRIDAY.

BUT A LOT OF MY CLASSES WENT INTO THE EVENING, AND THAT REQUIRED A BABYSITTER, BECAUSE THAT WAS AFTER DAY CARE HOURS OR PUBLIC SCHOOL HOURS.

AND THAT WAS MOST OF MY STRESS, WAS JUST MAKING SURE THAT SOMEONE WAS TAKING CARE OF MY DAUGHTER WHILE I WAS IN A CLASS THAT IS WAY REQUIRED TO ATTEND.

>> THERE IS ALSO THE QUESTION OF THE GRANTS.

NOW I THINK PEOPLE ARE AWARE BECAUSE IT'S BEEN VERY MUCH IN THE NEWS, BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE ARE AFFECTED BY IT.

JUST HOW MUCH DEBT PEOPLE CAN GET INTO TRYING TO FINISH A DEGREE.

A DEGREE THAT, YOU KNOW, MANY PEOPLE NEED JUST TO FUNCTION IN THIS ECONOMY.

>> YEAH.

SO I DID RECEIVE A FULL PELL GRANT, AND I HAD A SMALL TUITION THAT CAME OUT TO BE ABOUT $2,000 A SEMESTER.

AND I DID TAKE OUT THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF LOANS.

WHAT THE LOANS ACTUALLY WENT TO WAS MY LIVING EXPENSES.

SO IT CAME OUT TO BE ABOUT $1,000 A MONTH THAT I BUDGETED FOR VERY HEAVILY.

AND SO WHEN I GRADUATED SCHOOL, EVEN THOUGH I'D ONLY TAKEN OUT LOANS FOR I THINK THE LAST TWO AND A HALF YEARS OF SCHOOL, I WAS 45 TO $50,000 IN DEBT JUST FROM THAT.

YOU.

>> WHAT MADE YOU WRITE THIS BOOK?

>> THE PART OF THIS STORY THAT I THINK IS THE MOST MEANINGFUL TO ME IN JUST HOW IT HAS AFFECTED ME AS A PERSON, AS A HUMAN BEING, WAS I WAS KICKED OFF OF FOOD STAMPS BECAUSE I COULD NOT MEET THE WORK REQUIREMENTS.

I NEEDED TO WORK 20 HOURS A WEEK WHILE GOING TO SCHOOL FULL TIME IN ORDER TO RECEIVE FOOD STAMPS, BECAUSE MY DAUGHTER WAS OVER 6 YEARS OLD.

AND THAT REALLY -- THAT IS SOMETHING I STILL STRUGGLE WITH TODAY, IS JUST FEELING LIKE I SOMEHOW DON'T DESERVE FOOD IF I CAN'T WORK ENOUGH FOR IT.

>> I REMEMBER WHEN THOSE WORK REQUIREMENTS WERE BEING DEBATED, AS THEY HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, OFF AND ON THROUGH THE LAST, YOU KNOW, COUPLE OF DECADES, IT THAT KIND OF CONCEPT IN THE MODERN ERA CAME IN DURING THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION.

YOU WRITE A LOT ABOUT THAT.

YOU SAID ALL GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS OPERATED ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT EVERY PERSON WHO WALKED INTO THE OFFICE BROUGHT THE POSSIBILITY OF SCAMMING THEM IN SOME WAY.

WE WERE ASKED DETAILED QUESTIONS ABOUT ASSETS, WHAT KIND OF CAR WE DROVE, IF WE HAD A BURIAL PLOT TO DETERMINE IF THERE WAS MONEY HID.

IT WAS RIDICULOUS TO IMAGINE ANYONE WOULD SPEND HOURS AT A GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE OFFICE IN THE MIDDLE OF AT THE WORK DAY TO POSSIBLY LEAVE WITH A COUPLE HUNDRED BUCKS A MONTH FOR FOOD.

THIS IS HOUR I SPENT HOURS ENTIRE WORK DAYS CONVINCING AUTHORITIES THAT I WASN'T A CRIMINAL.

THESE INVASIONS PRIVACY CAUSED ME TO FUDGE IT'S AND SQUIRM.

I SUBMITTED BECAUSE IT WAS ANOTHER MEANS TO AN END.

DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN IT OCCURRED TO YOU THAT THAT'S KIND OF WHAT IT WAS?

IT'S ALMOST LIKE THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE IT, OR THAT THEY ASSUME YOU ARE TRYING TO SORT OF GET ONE OVER ON THEM?

>> I THINK OVER THE YEARS, YOU KNOW, I HAVE BEEN OFF OF FOOD STAMPS SINCE EARLY 2016.

AND I HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT IT AND PAYING ATTENTION TO, YOU KNOW, THE CONVERSATIONS AROUND IT, ESPECIALLY IN THE MEDIA, AND I JUST -- I HAVE NOTICED A TREND THAT I THINK THAT THEY MAKE IT HARDER SO THAT LESS PEOPLE SIGN UP.

AND THERE IS TWO REASONS FOR THAT, I THINK, IS, YOU KNOW, THE STATES RECEIVE BLOCK GRANTS.

AND IF THE GRANTS ARNEN'T USED, THEY CAN USE THEM FOR OTHER THINGS.

THE LESS PEOPLE WHO SIGN UP, THE MORE PROGRESS IS BEING MADE AND THINGS ARE BETTER AND, YOU KNOW, SEE, WE DON'T EVEN NEED THESE PROGRAMS.

AND THERE IS ALWAYS THE WELFARE TO WORK THING.

YOU MENTIONED BILL CLINTON AND WELFARE REFORM AND THAT HAS BEEN THE ASSUMPTION SINCE THE BEGINNING OF WELFARE PROGRAMS, IT SEEMS, IS THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ON GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS ARE CHOOSING NOT TO WORK, AND THAT IS HARDLY EVER THE CASE.

MOST OF THE FAMILIES WHO ARE ON FOOD STAMPS ARE WORKING MULTIPLE JOBS SOMETIMES.

>> THE OTHER THROUGH LINE OF THE BOOK AND -- IS THIS WHOLE QUESTION OF WHAT YOU DESERVE.

LIKE, DO YOU DESERVE TO GO TO COLLEGE?

LIKE, DO YOU DESERVE TO DO WORK THAT YOU WANT TO DO AS OPPOSED TO WORK THAT YOU HAVE TO DO?

OR THAT YOU ARE WORTHY, OR IF YOU ARE ONLY WORTHY BECAUSE YOU'RE WORKING.

COULD YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT AND WHAT THAT FEELING IS AND WHY YOU THINK IT'S SO PERVASIVE?

>> IT REALLY FELT LIKE NOT ONLY DID I NOT DESERVE TO BE THERE.

LIKE I NEVER IF FELT DESERVING OF HIGHER EDUCATION.

I NEVER FELT ENTITLED TO IT.

TO ME IT FELT LIKE I WAS TAKING UP SPACE.

I MEAN, I FELT LIKE I WAS NOT JUST AN IMPOSTOR, BUT, LIKE, I WAS THERE ON A GRANT, YOU KNOW, LIKE I COULDN'T FULLY PARTICIPATE IN A LOT OF THE COLLEGE ATMOSPHERE.

LIKE I COULDN'T HANG OUT FRIENDS.

I COULDN'T GO TO THE OUTSIDE OF CLASS ACTIVITIES THAT A LOT OF THE OTHER STUDENTS WERE GOING TO.

AND NOT JUST THE PIZZA PARTIES.

LIKE THE, YOU KNOW, THE READINGS OF AUTHORS THAT WERE VISITING IN TOWN AND THINGS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WERE IN MY DEGREE PROGRAM WERE GOING TO, AND I JUST, YOU KNOW, I WAS TEN YEARS OLDER THAN MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN MY CLASS, AND VERY MUCH FELT OUT OF PLACE.

LIKE I DIDN'T BELONG.

I REALLY FELT APOLOGETIC IF I NEEDED TO TAKE UP MY PROFESSOR'S TIME BECAUSE I JUST -- I FELT LIKE, YOU KNOW, BEING ON GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE AND ALREADY RECEIVING SO MUCH HELP IN THAT WAY, LIKE I THINK IT JUST MESSED WITH ME A LOT, AND I JUST FELT LIKE I SHOULDN'T ASK FOR MORE HELP BECAUSE I WAS ALREADY GETTING A LOT THAT OTHER PEOPLE WEREN'T.

YOU KNOW, AND I THINK THERE IS -- THERE IS A THING -- WHEN YOU ARE HUNGRY AND YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO FEED YOURSELF TO THE POINT WHERE YOU ARE SATIATED, IT REALLY AFFECTS YOU, AND YOU HIDE FROM PEOPLE.

AND I DID MAY BEST TO HIDE THAT.

IT WAS EMBARRASSING TO NOT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY.

>> DO YOU WRITE ABOUT KIND OF THE JUDGMENT THAT YOU GET FROM A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING FAMILY MEMBERS.

I AM SORT OF PUZZLED BY WHY IT IS THAT SO FEW PEOPLE SEEM TO BE WILLING TO LET YOU DREAM.

I AM JUST WONDERING WHY YOU THINK THAT MIGHT BE?

>> IT WAS, YOU KNOW, DREAMS DON'T PAY THAT MUCH, AND IT TAKES A LOT TO SUCCEED.

ESPECIALLY IN THE ARTS.

AND SO THERE WAS NO GUARANTEE.

THERE WAS NO JOB AT THE END OF IT.

YOU KNOW, EVEN MY CLASSES IN COLLEGE DIDN'T TEACH ME HOW TO MAKE MONEY AS A WRITER.

AND SO THERE WAS REALLY THIS QUESTION OF, LIKE, YOU'RE DOING WHAT?

YOU'RE GETTING A DEGREE IN ENGLISH?

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH THAT?

SO IT WAS VERY MUCH THIS, LIKE, I NEEDED TO BE ON A PATH WHERE EMPLOYMENT AND HEALTH BENEFITS AND ALL OF THAT WAS AT THE END.

>> I HAVE AN AWKWARD QUESTION.

AGAIN, KIND OF YOUR BRAND IS HONESTY, RIGHT?

THE DECISION TO HAVE A SECOND CHILD WHEN YOU WERE ALREADY STRUGGLING TO BE THE PARENT YOU WANTED TO BE TO YOUR FIRST.

YOU TALK ABOUT THAT IN THE BOOK.

WILL YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

BECAUSE THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK PEOPLE FEEL ENTITLED TO JUDGE, RIGHT?

I MEAN, THEY FEEL ENTITLED TO JUDGE.

AND SO I WANTED TO ASK IF YOU WOULD JUST TALK ABOUT THAT.

HOW YOU CAME TO THE DECISION THAT YOU WERE GOING TO GO AND HAVE A SECOND CHILD, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS ALREADY HARD TO HAVE ONE.

>> WELL, IT WASN'T A PLANNED THING.

IT WASN'T, YOU KNOW, I WAS PURPOSEFULLY TRYING.

BUT I DISCOVERED I WAS PREGNANT, AND I HAVE ALWAYS WANTED MY OLDEST TO HAVE A SIBLING.

YOU KNOW, I GREW UP WITH A LITTLE BROTHER.

SHE WAS ALWAYS ASKING FOR A LITTLE SISTER.

LIKE, SHE ASKED FOR A SANDWICH FOR LUNCH.

AND SO IT WAS JUST -- IT WAS SOMETHING I WANTED.

AND I HAVE EXPERIENCED SO MUCH JUDGMENT FROM THAT JUST BECAUSE OF MY ECONOMIC STATUS AT THE TIME.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S VERY -- THAT'S VERY UNIQUE SORT OF JUDGMENT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE POOR.

AND I -- FOR ME, IT'S BEEN A CONVERSATION THAT I HAVE JUST KIND OF HAD OVER THE YEARS.

BUT LATELY IT'S JUST BEEN THIS -- SINCE I HAVE BEEN DOING SO MANY INTERVIEWS, IT'S JUST, LIKE, WHY CAN'T I CHOOSE TO HAVE A CHILD?

IN WRITING THE BOOK, THOUGH, YOU KNOW, I WROTE THE BOOK RIGHT AFTER THE OVERTURN OF ROE V. WADE.

AND I REALLY WANTED TO SHOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO HAVE A CHILD WITH ABSOLUTELY NO RESOURCES BECAUSE FOR A LOT OF WOMEN, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO HAVE A UTERUS, IF THEY CAN'T GET AN ABORTION, THEN THEY SUDDENLY HAVE A CHILD TO TAKE CARE OF, AND DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THEY ARE GOING TO RECEIVE A LOT OF RESOURCES BECAUSE OF THAT.

I MEAN, THERE IS STILL -- IT'S VERY HARD.

AND SO PART OF ME REALLY WANTED TO SHOW WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE, TOO.

BUT FOR ME, YOU KNOW, I REALLY WANTED TO HAVE A BABY.

I WANTED TO HAVE TWO CHILDREN.

AND I WAS 35.

YOU KNOW, I WAS ALREADY CONSIDERED LIKE A GERIATRIC PREGNANCY AND STUFF.

SO I THOUGHT MY TIME WAS RUNNING OUT, AND THAT WAS THE CHOICE I MADE.

>> SO INTERESTING, AND ALSO YOUR -- HOW YOU FEEL YOU KIND OF CHANGED BETWEEN YOUR FIRST BOOK AND YOUR SECOND.

OR HAVE YOU?

>> OH, WELL, I MEAN, THE VOICE AND KIND OF MY CHARACTER ARE VERY DIFFERENT BETWEEN THE FIRST BOOK AND THE SECOND.

YOU KNOW, THE FIRST BOOK, I WROTE IT IN A VERY APOLOGETIC, YOU KNOW, PLEASE, SIR, COULD I HAVE SOME MORE, YOU KNOW, OLIVER TWIST TYPE OF CHARACTER.

AND I FELT APOLOGETIC FOR JUST BEING A PERSON IN THAT STORY, YOU KNOW, FOR BEING A PERSON WHO IS ON GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE.

IN WRITING THE SECOND BOOK, I DISCOVERED THAT I WAS PRETTY ANGRY ABOUT WHAT I HAD TO GO THROUGH, AND I HAD THE -- I FELT I HAD THE PLATFORM, YOU KNOW, I HAD THE CLOUT, I HAD THE NETFLIX SERIES AND ALL OF THAT THAT I FELT LIKE IT MIGHT BE ACCEPTED TO HEAR AN ANGRY WOMAN WRITE A WHOLE BOOK AND TALK ABOUT HOW ANGRY SHE IS ABOUT SOMETHING.

AND A LOT OF THAT WAS BECAUSE IT'S BEEN TEN YEARS SINCE I HAVE BEEN IN THAT SITUATION.

AND I HAVE A NEW SENSE OF NORMALCY.

I HAVE A LOT MORE PRIVILEGE THAN I DID THEN.

AND I STILL HAD PRIVILEGE THEN.

JUST AS A WHITE PERSON IN THAT SITUATION.

BUT NOW IT'S LIKE TO GO BACK AND TRULY LIVE IN THAT TIME AND ABSORB IT AND WRITE ABOUT IT AND WRITE FROM THAT SPACE, I COULDN'T BELIEVE THAT I HAD TO GO THROUGH THAT.

AND IT MADE ME ANGRY.

>> THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO THINK WE ARE IN AN EVEN MEANER TIME NOW THAN THEN.

I'M WONDERING, LIKE, HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW?

DO YOU STILL FEEL ANGRY?

DO YOU FEEL HOPEFUL IN ANY WAY?

>> THERE WAS A TIME THE BEGINNING OF THE PANDEMIC I FELT HOPE.

AND IT WAS REALLY INCREDIBLE TO SEE SO MANY PEOPLE REALIZING, LIKE EVEN BIDEN TWEETED THAT PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE A SICK DAY, AND ALL OVER THE NEWS WERE RESTAURANT WORKERS WHO SUDDENLY COULDN'T PAY RENT BECAUSE THEY HAD BEEN OUT OF WORK FOR TWO WEEKS.

AND WE CALLED WORKERS ESSENTIAL, WHICH I THOUGHT WAS KIND OF SAD, TO BE HONEST, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THOSE WERE PEOPLE WHO COULD NOT AFFORD TO NOT GO TO WORK.

THEY WERE ALSO FORCED TO GO TO WORK IN A PANDEMIC.

BUT THERE WAS JUST THIS MOMENT OF, LIKE, OH MY GOODNESS, THESE PEOPLE, THEY NEED HELP.

WE NEED TO HELP THEM.

AND YOU HAD THE UNEMPLOYMENT EXPANSION.

YOU HAD THE CHILD TAX CREDIT EXPANSION.

YOU HAD ALL OF THESE PROGRAMS BEGIN, AND THEN THEY ENDED.

AND EVERYBODY WENT BACK INTO POVERTY AND, YOU KNOW, WE WERE ABLE TO SHOW HOW MUCH POOR PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO BENEFIT FROM HAVING SOME MONEY, AND THEN IT DOES APPEARED AGAIN.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE CRUX OF ALL OF THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THE AMERICAN BOOTSTRAP MYTH, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WORK HARD ENOUGH, YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE IT.

SO IF YOU'RE NOT MAKING IT, YOU'RE NOT WORKING HARD ENOUGH.

BUT THERE IS ALSO JUST THIS -- WE DON'T TRUST POOR PEOPLE WITH MONEY.

AND WE DON'T THINK THAT THEY DESERVE NICE THINGS.

AND I THINK -- WHEN ALL OF THOSE ARGUMENTS START UP AGAIN, YOU KNOW, WHEN PEOPLE START CRYING ABOUT WORK REQUIREMENTS AND HOW WE CAN'T JUST GIVE PEOPLE A FREE LUNCH AND THEY NEED TO WORK FOR IT FIRST, LIKE, THAT'S THE BASIS OF THAT ARGUMENT, IS A BELIEF THAT POOR PEOPLE JUST CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.

>> STEPHANIE LAND, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING US WITH AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL WE GET TO TALK AGAIN.