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>> I'm glad you're joining us tonight air on PBS for Waking LIFE Ahead is the name the show and our goal here is to provide you with information and education that helps you with decisions you have to make in your LIFE Ahead.

And tonight's no exception.

I'm the host Sandy Thomson but the real star of the show is the gentleman over here come and meeting with me.

>> This is J. Brian Nugent, an elder law attorney who's been on our show many times.

>> So a lot of you may recognize him and he's going to give us a lot of good information this evening and if you have phone calls that's what we want.

We want to talk about what you want to know the phone numbers on the bottom of the screen (969) 27 twenty and just call us any time here in the next half hour and you'll answer the questions I will about just anything dentistry.

>> No, no, no, no, no.

Larry Elder law stay play it.

All right.

We'll keep it isolated at bat.

>> We really do love your phone.

Call us and if you want to talk live with us on the air, that's wonderful.

So if Brian has any questions back to you, that's great if you're not comfortable with that, we have a phone operator in the control room who will take the calls and and type up your question and send it out here to me in the studio on the teleprompter and then I'll ask you all right until we get some phone calls.

>> Brian, I want to talk to you.

>> The main thing we're going to be discussing this evening until you tell us what you want to know our pitfalls pitfalls to avoid in estate and elder law planning.

>> So a lot of you may be thinking about that now if you're not, you should be even if you're not elderly, right?

>> That's correct.

When should people start thinking of estate planning, Brian?

>> I normally see people focusing on estate planning in a couple of different instances.

The first main instance that I see clients coming into my office is when they have their first baby.

>> So they are looking for my gosh, I realize I've got this precious baby in their hands and if something happens to them or they're not able to provide care for any number of reasons they may need to appoint a guardian to to watch the child.

So I would say the first time people come in is normally when they have their first child after that another main time that I see people coming in is that they have a health event in their life and they realize oh my gosh, not invincible.

I'm not immortal.

I would say next would be if you're thinking about retirement or you've just retired and you're trying to get things organized is another major time that I see folks in my office regarding estate planning and then as far as elder law is concerned, typically when somebody is in their maybe mid seventies eighties my child may be seeing their parent start to decline and they're concerned about what happens if we need care in the home or we need to have an out-of-home placement.

How do we pay for that and and how do we protect those assets?

So those are the times standard that I normally see folks coming in for estate planning or talking to me about elder law and you I think there's a little sometimes a misperception when we say elder law attorney doesn't mean you have to be seventy five to be a client.

It means everybody's planning for the future which might be when they are elderly.

>> But like you said, having that first baby you start to get a little serious about making sure you're taking your family so briefly if I could if you're looking at estate planning and elder law, they're distinct areas of the law estate planning is when I pass away how are my assets distributed?

How is how are my debts paid?

Who gets what money and are there any strings attached to that elder law is I'm wanting to protect assets during my lifetime should I need in-home care out of home or if I have an out of home placement and then possibly be able to get benefits as well.

And normally when we're talking about benefits we're talking about programs like Medicaid or the VA Veteran's Administration.

>> So elder law and estate planning are unique.

They may dovetail at some point but they really are unique areas.

So a 20 year old or a twenty four year old or talking to me about their newborn probably not going to be talking about elder law, just a state plan.

Yeah.

And those are the ones that want to right away begin to take care of documentation.

A power of attorney and guardian health care representative, some of those basic things I might correct you are correct.

>> Normally when young people come in they're looking for a guardian for their child.

They don't necessarily have a lot of wealth yet.

They may but they don't necessarily have a lot of wealth yet their main concern is the child.

But regardless of your age powers of attorney health care representative designation those things we want in place always those are essentials so that we can avoid a guardianship if if at all possible right.

>> That makes sense.

OK, I said we were going to talk about some of the pitfalls so let's do that.

What are from common let's say if you had to pick the the top four or five pitfalls or problems that might arise with estate planning or elder law planning, which should we go with or bode well for estate planning I think is if I'm looking at pitfalls there, the major pitfall is that people have either apathy or they don't they don't care about it or they're going to get to it at some point and that's not doing anything.

I think that is that the major pitfall and that is not necessarily tied to a person's wealth how much they do have or don't have.

We've seen instances of celebrities that have passed unexpectedly and had no estate planning in place and what a mess that creates that happens on a smaller scale as well with individuals that aren't in the limelight that don't have their estate planning done.

So the major pitfall that I see is people just not doing anything and making the assumption too that if I married my spouse is automatically going to get everything that's not necessarily true depending upon if you have children who don't have children first marriage, second marriage etc.

And I also think that you pitfall is not being aware of where your assets are.

I have a 401k at a job that I used to be at and I've left that employer and I've moved on and not really being being organized in that sense not having some of those basic documents that we talked about earlier the power of attorney health care rep designation and and I would say another major pitfall is when you eventually do speak with an estate planning or elder law attorney going in with the assumption that you know what you need I would say go in with an open mind, explore going to the professional that you're talking to what it is that you want to get accomplished and let the professional guide you about where it is that he or she thinks that you may need to go and what you may need to have in place ultimately or the decision maker is the client.

You decide what you do or don't want to do but go into that meeting with an open mind.

I always find it curious when I have a client say to me I need this, this and this.

>> I don't even know yet what you need until we've spoken.

So I would encourage folks that are going into speaking and speaking with professionals that they do so with an open mind and sometimes maybe they don't know what they should have.

>> So it's a two way thing.

I mean they're going in with a list of their goals that they want you to help them with.

Right.

But some things they may not think about that you know, from experience they might need.

>> Well, we have a phone call I knew we would he's he's a very popular guest.

Jim, thank you so much for calling in tonight.

Sam also and we'll get you Sam in just a moment.

But first of all, Jim wants to know what age should I have signed up for long term care insurance by?

>> Well, that's that's an important question because I don't know.

>> Yeah.

So long term care insurance let's first start by defining what that is a long term care insurance policy is an insurance policy sometimes people call it nursing home insurance.

That's a policy that will pay for could be in home care for you if you need assistance in the home or pay for your stay at a nursing home.

Typically it's triggered by certain activities of daily living that you can no longer perform for yourself that could be bathing that could be using the bathroom by yourself.

It could be showering.

So you've got some activities of daily living that you're not able to perform that triggers the policy the age at which we should be looking at that.

>> So typically estate planning attorneys and elder law attorneys don't sell those products.

We're familiar with them.

But from what I understand in the industry by your late fifties you should start to be looking at that long term care insurance definitely in your sixties if you're going to be getting it.

>> What I have seen in my about thirty years of practicing now is that those prices have continued to increase over time and I assume they will continue to do so.

So the younger you are when you purchase that long term care insurance, the more manageable your premiums may be.

They're normally paid on an annual basis.

You might be able to break them down twice a year, four times a year but typically we pay those on an annual basis.

So I would say by your late fifties if you're serious about long term care insurance you should be speaking with an agent and I understand and from other discussions we've had that as you age the price goes up as well.

>> I mean because you're closer to maybe needing the insurance.

So if you don't even apply for it till you're in your seventies it's going to cost you a lot more.

That's right.

OK, let's talk to Sam a little bit here.

This is Sam your question.

He says I'm in the will of a family friend.

Well, their children have more claim to their assets than me.

>> So Sam, you've brought up a great point about pitfalls and the pitfalls are if they if your friend in this instance wants to remember you and they don't memorialize that in a will or a trust or sometimes by beneficiary designation, you're not going to be entitled to receive anything.

The children depending upon if if your friend is married to the husband or wife of the children may or may not have an entitlement to some of your friend's estate.

But what I will say is once your friend prepares the will or once your friend prepares to trust the children have no right to those assets that were set aside to you those are your assets now that I always preface that by saying it doesn't mean that the children couldn't complain and say I'm going to object to that.

I don't like the fact that you as a friend were were designated as a recipient of some of those assets.

However, so long as your friend wasn't under duress understood what he or she was preparing when they prepared the well there are some areas that we need to make sure that are satisfied competent at the time then without a doubt those assets that are set aside to you will definitely be given to you through the probate process and children don't have a claim to it more than you do.

>> Sam, I bet Sam's a whole lot relieved to get that.

I hope you are.

Thank you, Sam.

for watching us tonight and thank you for that question.

>> OK, well that was one of the pitfalls if you will.

>> What are some other pitfalls or how can we deal with them?

How can we keep from having a pitfall that might affect our estate planning or our elder law planning?

>> I think that one of the things that I see is that people are relying on beneficiary designations strictly I on my 401k work or on my IRA I've done designated a beneficiary.

>> Well sometimes the beneficiary designation alone is all right but we also need to look at if the beneficiary that we've designated happens to pass away in advance of inheriting the money or receiving the money from that whatever instrument is they were a beneficiary on.

Where does the money go next?

Sometimes people are confused by I've done a will and in the will I said my children don't get the money until their ages.

Twenty five thirty thirty five and that client also does the beneficiary designation naming their children.

They have the assumption that the will controls and so they're thinking well I'm protecting my kids to make sure they don't spend the money too quickly.

They're going to get it at these three distributions.

Twenty five.

Thirty thirty five.

Well that beneficiary designation conflicts with that .

So we want to make sure that your beneficiary designations and your estate planning match up and that you actually are getting accomplished what you want to get accomplished.

>> I think that's so interesting.

We've talked about that before here with Brian to remember that the beneficiary your name on whether it's your savings account or a mutual fund or any kind of investment that will take precedence over what you say in the will right now.

>> Here's my question to you.

I'm going to go along with what we've been talking about.

So you're going to name a beneficiary for some of your investments and you say, well, I want my grandson to get this money at twenty one thirty forty eight and can you specify that when you name a beneficiary not only beneficiary designation no.

>> You're going to need to use a will or a trust to be able to do that beneficiary designation.

It goes out right to the person which you may or may not intend for that to happen.

Now there's nothing wrong with beneficiary designations.

>> I oftentimes will go through with my clients and I will write down this is how this should be here.

>> This is the discussion we've had.

These are the people that you should put in the percentages to go to those people and perhaps the secondary beneficiary designation is the trust to hold the money for your kids or your grandkids for a period of time which is fine.

That works out well.

The pitfall is that you're not aware of how those things go together.

>> You're not taking a universal approach to your planning so you can name name this trust in your as your beneficiary then.

>> That's correct.

OK, all right.

That's where you can be more specific about when you want them to get things OK. >> All right.

That's one pitfall or maybe that's two or three of them all combined in what we've been talking about.

What are some other things people I hesitate to say do wrong but do that could be a pitfall for them.

>> So if we're talking about elder law, one of the biggest pitfalls that I see is that people have the assumption that if someone is receiving services now that's care in the home or they're in a nursing home and they're paying for that care.

The biggest pitfall that I see is people assuming that there's nothing I can do.

>> It's too late for me to protect any of this money.

It's too late for me to get any benefits.

I'm going to have to sell the farm.

I'm going to have to liquidate my IRA and spend it down.

It's always very sad for me when I hear families come in after the fact and they say what we could have done some crisis planning and protected that money and still had mom in that facility we didn't need to sell the farm.

It's always hard for me to hear that as an elder law attorney.

So a major pitfall is that people have the impression that there's nothing to do.

It's too late to protect assets.

I would encourage everyone that's in that situation and to reach out to an elder law attorney and speak with them about gosh, mom's in the nursing home, dad's in the nursing home, my spouse, whatever it may be, I'm spending so much money per month.

Is there anything I can do to to stop that loss and protect money?

And there are steps that we can take in order to do that pitfall would be to feel like there's nothing you can do and that's nothing it couldn't be further from the truth eight or eat.

>> So then even if you're already in a nursing home there are ways you can still protect your assets.

>> That's right.

I would say typically these are not hard and fast rules but typically if you're a married individual we normally can protect all of the assets for the spouse that's outside of the nursing home.

If you're a single individual and you're in a nursing home, this is very general and it's based upon several factors including your income, the cost of the facility, the assets that you have.

But generally we can protect at least 50 percent if not more of the assets and and underscoring the level of care that you're going to receive in a nursing home or or an assisted living facility that takes Medicaid is is going to be the same whether or not it's paid for privately if it's paid for through Medicaid or to the earlier question regarding long term care insurance or if it's paid for by long term care insurance, the attendants that are there, the staff that are there taking care of you are not aware of how the bill is being paid and it's no reflection on the facility that you're in the nursing home they may be in or the assisted living facility that it may be in that in fact they take Medicaid.

>> Are they there's your care is not impacted in any way by that.

>> So you shouldn't go in with that mindset that if if my care is being paid for by something other than out of my checkbook I'm going to receive any type of a substandard care.

>> I'm so glad that you talk about that often when we're here on the show because I think that's a misconception for people to they they think you if they're on Medicare or VA expenses or whatever they're going receive less care.

But I love that you are very explicit in saying no.

The staff doesn't even know how you're being paid so you're going to be treated royally all the way through if that's what they do.

You made a point earlier you were just saying about Medicare paying for it, Medicaid paying for it.

Note that there is a pitfall I suppose and that people make the assumption that Medicare will pay for one stay in a nursing home long term if you're not receiving rehabilitation and even when you're receiving rehab rehabilitation, there are limitations on how long you can be there based upon the type of coverage that you have if there's advantage Medicare or traditional Medicare and how you're recovering in rehab, if you need to stay beyond that rehab that's you're going to be paying for that privately if you don't have something else in place like Medicaid, like long term care insurance, you would be paying for it or prepared to do private pay.

>> Brian, in terms of the care that you're going to not care you're going to receive but the length of time are they all nursing homes or assisted living take Medicare or do you need to ask ahead of time whether they do so?

Let's take Medicaid insurance on Medicare and Medicaid are two different programs.

>> Correct.

And so you're correct.

>> I'm giving the lawyer is what everybody says so I like to when I'm speaking with clients make sure that I'm saying very clearly Medicare, Medicaid they are two different programs.

>> So yes, nursing homes that are engaging in rehabilitation are going to be taking Medicare not all nursing homes for a skilled stay which is a long term stay beyond that rehab take Medicaid a majority a significant majority of nursing homes take Medicaid, very few nursing homes.

Are you going to find that are strictly private pay?

I would say that in Indiana sixty five percent of the residents in nursing homes have their state paid for by Medicaid.

So it is very prevalent and it's a part of their business model you shouldn't be intimidated by if you're receiving the benefits from that program and that's good to know.

>> We want to make sure you're all comfortable with whatever situation you're in and you know there's something out there for everybody here.

OK, I have some questions about pitfalls in terms of scams.

>> We've touched on this before but I think it's a great topic.

>> There are common pitfalls for everybody but especially for older people.

>> How can we avoid them?

Well, here's even in my own family I have had loved ones contacted and generally those phone calls when people are calling you and saying I'm from the IRS, I am from this entity or that entity, it's just not how they work.

If you could screen your calls ,be very careful about when if something doesn't quite if it's too good to be true.

Right.

If you if you give me your account number I'm going to put money into it or if it's a demanding immediately if you don't pay this if you don't give us your account number we're going to send the sheriff over to arrest you or it just isn't true.

I think unfortunately what happens is people age for some reason and I wish I could put my thumb on what it is discerning between reality and that moment of intimidation or something too good to be true if we could just filter that out and hang up the phone and it's not just over the phone.

My gosh, my clients will receive an envelope after mail, a letter after letter asking for money to be sent and the the on your vehicle on your car to purchase a policy for your car should there be damage to your car.

We're going to send me three hundred bucks a month and we'll fix the car if there's a problem if the pitfall is that people are naive in a sense and I don't mean that in a negative way but they're so gentle and kind hearted they want to pick up the phone.

They come from a generation where I'm supposed to pick up the phone and talk to people and be courteous and it got to be a little strong and put that receiver down at if it's true if it's a real thing they will reach back to you.

They will call you again.

They'll leave a voice voicemail and then make the phone call.

But that would be it.

I have seen in my practice and I'm sure other attorneys and Sandy maybe have some examples from other guests that have been on a lot of money that has been lost oh billions every year.

>> Yeah, I sent some from very, very sad stories of people that have lost a lot of money and it has nothing to do with intellect.

It has nothing to do with your background.

There's something I see two areas.

One is there something too good to be true and somebody is chasing the dollars and they're thinking they're going to make all this money and the second one is in the moment you're pressured you something bad is going to happen if you don't give me this information right away.

>> Those are the two areas that I see.

Yeah, I've gotten a number of phone calls.

>> Here's you know it's like a phone call saying I won a cruise and all this is true and I knew it was a scam right away but I just let them talk about going on to the manager.

>> You know, they wanted well you get it free but you have to give it your credit card number.

>> We're going to charge you five hundred and fifty dollars for like taxes or gratuities date of birth.

>> We do need your Social Security number to verify it's you your checking account number.

We need your checking account number so we can deposit the check into it all.

>> It's not true.

It's very sad when I see it.

Yeah, well you know, we always love and Brian's on he always share such good information and I hope you've benefited from that and meanwhile be sure and watch us here on LIFE Ahead every Wednesday night at seven thirty in this show Brian.

So it's you know and all of you know we'll be airing three more times tomorrow night I think it's at eight o'clock and then two times this weekend you can check your listings local listings for that.

So if you've missed anything you got another chance.

>> Thank you, Brian.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

Good night to all of you.

Stay safe and stay healthy