good evening and thank you so much for watching us here on PBS Fort Wayne and watching our show called Like The Hand.

I'm Sandy Thomson, the host of the show but the stars are our guest this evening.

We've got a very interesting topic for you that will sooner or later apply to somebody that you know or perhaps yourself.

>> We're going to talk about the logistics of leaving.

What does that mean?

Well, at some point for seniors or for somebody who has a serious illness, there may be a time when you need to leave your home, if you will, to perhaps move to assisted living or a nursing home or in with another family member and presents a lot of problems.

>> A big dilemma for you.

What do you do with the things that you own?

What do you do with your home?

What we're going to address those issues for us this evening.

We have with us first of all a gentleman that you met less than a month ago right here.

>> Well, maybe it was just a month ago just a month just a month ago.

>> An attorney is with us this evening and that is David Anthony .

David, thank you for coming back.

You didn't get scared off by another wonderful OK and you brought a special guest with you this evening.

>> This is Steve Nasse and Steve, what would your title be?

I don't have a title.

You don't you can be anything you want to be a real estate broker or an auctioneer.

>> OK, so Steve will be able and or answer questions that have to do with perhaps your property and or your home in terms of getting rid of that if you will.

And then we're going to look at legal answers from David here.

>> Now I do want you to remember that you can call in with any questions that you have (969) 27 twenty is our phone number.

If you're out of the immediate area if you just put a one eight six in front of that, it'll be toll free for you.

>> So please give us a call with your questions.

Meanwhile, I'm going to ask these guys some questions.

All right.

Let's start, David, with you.

You're the main focus of our evening here and you chose our topic.

Why are we talking about this?

Why or how does somebody know when it's time to leave their residence?

>> It can be real hard for families to make that decision and it really comes down to the family and their individual and their medical situation and sure, like my grandmother, she just decided she was ready.

She didn't want the space anymore.

So sometimes it's the individual's choice and sometimes it's harder when it's the family.

But sure, really like I said, it comes down to every family has their own specific needs and as you as you work through those difficult questions or again if if everybody just knows it's time and the person's on board then can be a little easier.

But you know, it's it's just something that's different for every family where you work with this from a legal point of view with helping people a lot with their estate planning or carrying out wills, that sort of thing.

>> Do you ever have to convince somebody you have to convince them it's time for them to leave or do you just the family come to you and say can you help us convince Mom it's time to move?

>> Um, yeah.

Typically convincing someone to to leave the home isn't really part of my job but it is something I can help families think through.

Yeah.

And and if there's a real medical need usually if it's if it's a not a voluntary move yeah.

>> Families are coming to me because it's out of the individual's hands at that point.

>> Right.

And and then they start to face legal reasons to handle different aspects of that.

>> So you might have a power of attorney or guardian having to make decisions for somebody because sure they've gotten past the point where they can do that safely on their own steam.

>> You deal with this I'm sure a lot in your possession.

What do you find is the most difficult thing for people in leaving their home?

I mean you have to deal with helping them sell or auction their home and and the things that they own.

It's probably an emotional thing.

>> Well, it is and it's we always tell people the wife it's like a book and you're going in the next chapter in the book and yeah.

Doesn't that book can't you can take a book with you so that when you move out of your house you still get their memories.

Yeah.

And yeah it's a tough decision and I'm a little bit like David said the more that you can put the family in that position and make a decision know personally my sister's handicap and she's five years older than me and so we moved her into assisted facility and we can mention seven to in a long line and I think that when they come to the conclusion that's the chapter they need to go into, it's a lot easier.

Yeah.

So a lot of times that you try to work with them and assist them and like David said, trying to steer them to some people can kind of give them some good advice.

>> Yeah for sure.

>> David, you mentioned power of attorney I think or else we talked about it when you were here last month.

>> What what role do they play in helping to make this move?

Well, you know, for for people whether they're making the decision for themselves or they are beyond the point where they can really make that decision if you have power of attorney in place, that's just a really great tool.

It allows the person that you name to have the authority to make those decisions for you without having to go through the trouble of becoming a guardian and the power of attorney can pretty much step into your shoes and and make you know, take those actions that you could take for yourself.

And the reason we like powers of attorney is as elder law attorneys because first off good for everybody.

>> They're they're cheaper than a guardianship.

>> Oh, I didn't know that I'm sure yeah.

The power of attorney document is something for a fraction of the cost of going through the guardianship procedures you can put in place within a day if you need a guardianship.

You the person under the guardianship is actually losing a lot of their freedoms.

You can't make contracts anymore.

You can't make a lot of decisions for yourself anymore.

So when you have to go through a process of being of having someone named as your guardian, that is really the last recourse and we have to go to court.

>> Yeah, we have to go before the judge.

There's usually another attorney involved because the court has its own person investigating to make sure that the guardianship is appropriate on top of what the evidence you're presenting power of attorney is is is great and I mean you can name that yourself.

Right.

And have it written into your will or or have a separate document.

Yeah.

So the power of attorney is a standalone document.

OK, and you the nice thing about it is while you're still of sound mind sure the person named in the power of attorney is is just your helper.

Yeah.

And and then they only really take on a more involved role as your ability to take care of yourself declines.

Sure.

But the power of attorney never supersedes the person who named their helper.

>> Right.

So if I say Sandy I want you to be my power of attorney you go to.

I still have control if I don't like what you're doing and say you have Steve do it now.

Yeah.

And so whereas The Guardian again there's a lot more involved and it's the point where you you are no longer able to have the anything the competency to name somebody to be your assistant and and there's a lot more court oversight and again it's it's more expensive because of all that oversight.

>> I didn't realize that.

But that makes total sense because I know it does become a bigger legal issue and I know you have to get the court involved in the judge has to say yeah, OK, I'll let you appoint them guardian so good to know tie in.

>> What they've said is that I think the earlier you can get into the system and what do you mean says the system get power of attorney OK all these things you avoid a lot of headaches.

>> Yes.

You know otherwise you get too many of the parents or to the situation they're not competent to make decisions.

Then you go get the courts involved .

All these other issues it becomes very cumbersome and the more you can get with an elder attorney and get these things set up, you're doing a blessing for the family and I guarantee you yeah.

>> And the the guardianship is really just it can really slow things down if you're in a situation where you can't really remain in your own house, it's usually because there's something some major situation going on medically right.

>> Or safety issues or things like that.

So you know, if we have to go before the court that might be a week or two out.

Well, that might be that's a long time in an emergency situation.

>> Sure.

So um yeah, I think day to day the most most practical thing you can do is go get a power of attorney in place so that if there's an emergency or if you need help there's someone who can easily do that for you and it may be a case that makes it a quick issue.

You know, maybe there's a medical issue and somebody had some surgery and they know they're going to be needing therapy or special special facility or whatever for a long time and and maybe the hospital says you're going to be released in two days.

Where are you going to go?

Right.

And then somebody has to deal with the family home and that sort of thing.

OK, let's talk about disposing of your property.

Here you go, Steve.

>> Big questions for for your answer.

I'm not sure I will do that.

Do that.

Yeah, please do that or you can send them over to him.

>> All right.

That's the way we're going to handle things here.

No, I love it.

>> OK, Steve, how does one go about disposing of their property where we get a call somebody comes in and says Mom, dad's thing about moving in retirement and what can we do to help out?

You know, so we'll come in and kind of explain the process to him.

>> And first of all is the more you can have the family involved help the parents, the better off you are because well, I think it is a decision that has to be made and if the loved ones can be a part of that decision, I think you avoid a lot of headaches, you know, probably avoid a lot of family count.

>> Oh yeah.

And you're going to have that I don't care where you are.

It's it's going to happen.

And part of the reason is maybe one of the siblings lives here locally with the parents in the facility and someone leads to three states away and so the workload never balances out and it creates a little fresh and and so if you can avoid that you're providing some help through the people to come in and help get things packed up for them, help in the process going through.

What do you think you need to take with you and and David to probably tell you more about this than I am.

But if they can take some of their history with them history.

Yeah.

When they when they get into the new facility uh, they feel like a little more like home.

>> Yeah yeah.

David let's let's include you in this because you know we've talked a little bit about this before so someone is moving let's say from from their home to an assisted living shot which might be like an apartment if you're well or maybe two villa that might be in the same sort of complex or it could be and depending on the situation it could be more of a hospital room situation.

>> What kind of things can people take with them?

Well, it's pretty limited.

>> I mean it kind of depends on how much space you have.

So at the far end where you have skilled care, it's more that hospital type setting.

>> You have a bed and some shelves and usually you're sharing a room with somebody else.

>> So it's it's pretty limited.

So you the families we like working with people like Steve because they're real good at helping families pass down to those most important items that are going to be really important for whoever is moving into the facility to feel more at home.

And so when we can rely on the family and experts like Steve to say here's here's how we're going to get you through that process in a way that is as painless as possible, the least traumatic that's that's really important for us because I can help you set up the power of attorney and I can do a lot but you know, at the end of the day a lot of those decisions are so personal that yeah, I mean what is important I mean you mentioned that mentioned Steve things that might make them feel at home, if you will, for some people it might be some photographs to take with you framed photographs for somebody else that might be their favorite lazy boy.

>> You know there is room for it and for other people it might be sentimental things or maybe who knows what some memorabilia from their travel or vacations or whatever.

What do you find, Steve?

I think I'm kind of a simple guy and things things you're a simple guy that gets very complicated, that gets a little fuzzy.

>> But I think if I have a philosophy and I put yourself in the other guy's shoes yeah.

I think when you do that your decision is pretty simple, you know, and I think that put yourself I'm going to move into assisted living kind of feel what they must go through in their mind.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And David's probably had people where they had to give up her car, you know.

>> Yeah.

That's a tough one.

That's like the last thing they want to do and but you're trying to make their life better before they get on the bus, get on the bus and move into that next chapter if you will.

>> What sort of things do people have to dispose of and how are we going to do that?

>> Do you is at all auction or do you I mean eBay what do you do we suggest family come in, sit down with their loved ones and take and dispose of what items you want to take with you.

OK, I don't like use word to dispose but the items you want to keep in the family pass along yeah.

>> The the next decision is where you're moving to let's go look at it and see how many pieces like David said some of these rooms are not real big.

You know what they're going to one room unit or shared with somebody else too.

So Gunnar can decide what you're going to take with you right then if we then we'll move them items in for OK. >> Oh OK. Yeah.

All right.

An auction company would do that very common.

Yeah.

We want to move more stuff in fits in there.

Yeah.

Then after you get it in there you might have to take someone back to the house then when we do that then we have three options of selling the real estate and our personal property obviously one of them is listen to real estate for sale then you have an online auction or live auction to sell the rest of the personal property and sometimes you package it all together.

It makes a little more sense to offer everything public auction or online.

>> Do I understand that a lot of auctions of property or whether it's a home or a farm or whatever else a lot of it now is you could also have online bidding, is that correct?

>> It's online bidding has been in the picture for some years but because of the Koven came out in the last two years a lot of things shifted to that entity as as the only way it has pluses and minuses to it sure.

Is because you can't come touch and feel it and see it.

You know.

But the other thing is you can catch a broader audience.

You know, we had a family of moved into a retirement community.

We sold motor home last to bidders California and New York.

>> Really would you think that no isn't that interesting but one of them obviously got it and had to come here and get it from New York and so the technology has changed that arena well and with technology too you can show a lot of things visually.

Sure.

Maybe they can't touch it.

Maybe I went this coffee right here but I can't touch it and feel it.

>> But you can show me a lot of images.

Sure.

Yeah.

>> So it changes the workload obviously changes a lot of things.

Do you find that KOSTERMAN David, that people will kind of package the whole thing in terms of disposing of their own personal property plus their home?

>> Yeah, I mean when they come to me, you know, the the questions that we have about personal property are in relation to well there is the question of how do we how do we dispose of it and of course we're saying well there's there's folks like Steve out there who can help you with that or they they they might have somebody they're working with or whatever.

>> But Steve's advice is really sound get the family involved first, see what the momentos that want to the people want you know, as long as we're not talking about these hidden Van Gogh in the attic.

Right, right.

When when we're looking at applying for various government benefits whether it's Medicaid or veteran's benefits, you know the normal stuff in the House that's not going to disposing of that by giving it to your children or something like that.

Yeah, that's not going to cause a problem for Medicaid, especially those there's a lot of momentos that are really important to the family.

Maybe grandpa's watch big deal for the family because he brought it from somewhere he's had it for a long but maybe it's only worth thirty bucks, you know, but but to you it's worth you know, it's irreplaceable time.

>> Yeah.

So you know, feeling comfortable to to make some of those those gifts and knowing that it's not going to mess up what you're doing as far now it makes sense to make sure you talk with someone like myself especially if the items are real high value or you know once you do sell it then it converts to cash.

You might have to do something different with the cash.

But yeah, I think I think working for someone like Steve and getting you know, the other side of it is disposing of things somewhat quickly is really helpful because when the family is using their house as a storage locker and and we're paying utility fees and we're paying taxes and if you can get insurance on a vacant house, it's pretty expensive.

It's not always really easy to do so um it doesn't if if the family isn't going to have another family member move into the house or they're not going to rent it or something like that usually makes sense to dispose relatively quickly.

>> It can be some there can be some other factors in there but usually holding on to especially just a house isn't in the family's best interest long term just to have a phone call that I want to go to and then Steve, I want you to jump in here.

Thomas, thank you so much for watching LIFE Ahead tonight .

>> I'm glad you're with us and you obviously have a question.

What is that Thomas ?

>> Hi.

Thanks for having me on the show.

Oh, we're happy to yeah.

I was just wondering oh my great grandfather had a pair of shoes he said he he was a so-called slave back in the day and he said that those shoes they used to walk him about four miles up and down the fields every day carrying fruit and stuff behind a cart that his master pushed with those shoes be worth anything today and how about anything else clothing that resembled that that time of cruelty back in the day?

>> Yeah, that's a good question, Tom.

I think it's a situation a little bit like David said that there's a logic of values and there's emotional values and that's definitely emotional definitely.

>> And I'm guessing the shoes had holes in the bottom.

>> They probably put cardboard inside.

You know, I think in our business as soon as you think you know everything, if somebody is proven you're wrong and what I mean is a little bit what something was worth one time before his effort and we tell the families all the time what you think might be worth something might not bring as much or vice versa and I shoes wouldn't mean anybody know anything to somebody that didn't understand the geneology .

>> Thomas, thank you so much for for calling in and mentioning that obviously these shoes they say they were there you go.

You might have a buyer, you might have a buyer.

Are there programs, by the way, locally that will help people if maybe they don't have a family around here but they they have to move in somewhere else for their health or assisted living or whatever?

>> How can they find somebody to help them who can give me an answer to call David?

David, that's your question.

>> Well, there's a there's a lot of folks you know, we can help connect people just because at the firm we have worked with a lot of families and so we know several people but we have contacts where network and refer them.

>> And one of the biggest things that I think families can do is if they're saying well, we're not going to be in the house, you have to decide, you know, are you going to private pay?

Are you going to use veterans benefits or Medicaid benefits to pay for the care?

And all of those things are going to affect your options if you're doing everything with, you know, just private pay, you can go anywhere you want.

>> You.

>> It doesn't matter.

And so the the getting to the place the first question is what place are you going to go to?

I think and you know and the answer to that often relies on how are you going to pay for it.

So um if you don't have the other side of that is having a network of people to rely on personally and so, um, I know organizations like Steeves they'll have people who can help with downsizing and helping you know, support packing.

I know there's organizations in town that will serve as professional guardians or serve for a fee as a power of attorney.

>> So you can in a way you're kind of hiring somebody to be your guardian right away.

Yeah.

Or you can you know, if you don't have that support system, there are companies in town that will do that role professional bodies at a loss.

Right.

That doesn't have to be.

And so again, you know, like if you do a little Googling look for professional power of attorney or professional guardianship and you can you can find some people also come talk to us and we'll do our best to connect you with someone who can support you while helping you make those make those decisions.

>> OK, big question and this is kind of a money question what about taxes or capital gains?

>> Is there an issue here, Steve?

If somebody owns their own on a residence, it doesn't capital gains don't play in that right now if it's an investment property, what they paid for it, what they sell for it's a capital gains and based on what taxes at that time in life is there going to be paid on profits?

>> You're shaking your head, David.

Yeah, I agree.

I agree.

And the other side of it is if we're disposing of the house and disposing of the personal property sometimes sometimes that's done by a gift somebody like I said hey Sandy , you have my house now they're typically the lifetime gift exemption is over 12 million per person right now.

So unless they're yeah.

Unless I mean now for some of our foreign clients that's that's a pretty low number or some of our business clients.

But for the average the average person like myself I'm not worried about it.

>> I've got a lot of room to grow before I would be you know when you do think of Steven and it's changing pretty fast could be their actually OK we're down to like only two minutes left.

I'm so sorry but very quickly Steven and David jump in.

What are some options?

You can transfer your property.

You can what else can we do with this property you're talking about the real estate.

>> Yes, the real estate obviously the part I get into work with most people is that they want to sell the property OK, you don't have a needs to it so we walk them through the options in the process and trying to keep his semblance of it down.

So we understand that my dad always give a quick lesson in life .

He says don't get hung up and all the material things in life like real estate and personal property because when you run down you just written off good lord I tell that a lot because you got to put yourself in the other guy's shoes and he feels like he's giving up his life .

>> Yeah, sure.

Sure.

Good advice.

That's the hardest part.

>> Oh yeah.

Is it I mean because I have junk in my house I haven't thrown out four for ten years because it's ten years I'm talking to money we can help you on that.

>> I know you can but I'm not ready to give it in fifty years again there are a lot of things that we don't dispose of either because of sentimental value or we think we're going to use them someday or who knows why I just don't have the energy to clean out the attic this weekend that kind of thing.

>> Right.

Wow.

So I got some mean I haven't played soccer in twelve years probably but your brother from high school and they're still there and so we want to go to his next garage sale.

>> Unfortunately we're down to just a few seconds here.

>> So I do want to encourage you all to share this kind of information with people that you know and by the way, this show that we have just done here live is going to be airing three more times tomorrow night I think it's eight o'clock on PBS and then two times this weekend, Saturday and Sunday you can check your local listings to see when that is or you can watch this show on our Fort Wayne PBS website.

>> That's easy.

Just click on local shows like Ahead.

>> That's the name of our show and then you can put David Anthony or Steve and put their names and talk about the logistics of leaving and that's what you'll find.

>> Thank you, gentlemen.

Thank you, Sandy and thank the rest of you and we'll see you right here next Wednesday night