GEOFF BENNETT: Former Supreme Court# Justice Anthony Kennedy served on## the nation's highest court for three# decades and was often described as the## swing vote in landmark decisions from# marriage equality to campaign finance.

It's a label he's long resisted, even# years after his 2018 retirement.

When## we spoke last week about his new memoir,# Life, Law & Liberty," he explained why.

ANTHONY KENNEDY, Former Associate Justice, U.S.# Supreme Court: Well, it's really the metaphor## that's the problem for me.

The metaphor,# you see this person swinging back and forth.

And my comment when people say about that# is that the cases swing.

I don't.

And so## that's why it seems to me -- people can# disagree -- that my jurisprudence is quite## consistent and it doesn't swing.

And so that# was one of the things explained in the book.

GEOFF BENNETT: You were the pivotal voice in# cases that expanded LGBTQ rights, that preserved## abortion rights at the time, but also a ruling# that struck down campaign finance restrictions.

How do you reconcile or explain## those strands of your legal philosophy?

ANTHONY KENNEDY: The campaign finance cases## are very, very difficult.

I'm sure most people# don't like the idea that millionaires, maybe## billionaires, come in and spend all this money in# a place where they don't even live in order to get## somebody elected.

And why should the successful# candidate be the one that has the most money?

That's -- something that's wrong with# it.

So then you're asking me, well,## what are you talking about, Kennedy?

Why did you# write this?

The answer was that what the Congress## had done was to say that corporations could not# give the money.

They forgot that The New York## Times was a corporation, and it was exempt.

The# Washington Post was a corporation.

It was exempt.

And many corporations were small, so the small# Chamber of Commerce, a grocery store.

So to me,## if we had held it for just big corporations, we# would have endless cases on drawing the line,## and we had no jurisprudential reason to do# it.

My suggestion, and it's still my hope,## is that the voters will be better# informed about who is giving money,## who is getting money, and take# that into account when they vote.

And the voters should be better informed.

The# books, it talks generally about we have to be## better informed about how our government works# and what our great -- the issues of our time are.

GEOFF BENNETT: Yes.

We were talking earlie.. your opinions in these key cases.# In the Obergefell v. Hodges case,## you wrote so powerfully about the dignity of# same-sex couples.

And you write in the book## about how someone once told you that the opinion# passed the refrigerator test.

Explain that for us.

ANTHONY KENNEDY: Somebody said, you passed# -- we were at some event.

Somebody said:## "Your opinion passed the refrigerator test."

I said: "What's the refrigerator test?"

If there's something that's written# in a newspaper article or a book or,## in this case, the Supreme Court opinion,# and the parents want the family to read it,## they just get some adhesive tape# and put it on the refrigerator,## and then everybody reads it when they're going# to get something out of the refrigerator.

So certain parts of my opinion, they# said, passed the refrigerator test,## those parts of the opinions which talk about# the dignity and the sanctity of marriage.

GEOFF BENNETT: But Justice Clarence Thomas# recently said at Catholic University that## legal precedents -- this is a# quote -- "are not the gospel."

Given the current petitions# seeking to revisit Obergefell,## do you worry that parts of your legacy,# including that case, could be undone?

ANTHONY KENNEDY: Well, of course,# the law must stand the test of time.## And if we learn or think we learn new things# over the course of years, the judges and the## legal profession and the general public are# free to examine and think about the reasons.

That's why we give reasons for what we do.# That's why we write about what we do and see## if those reasons can stand the test of time.# So the fact that there is a reexamination## and additional conversation, to# me, is a strength of our system.

GEOFF BENNETT: Yes.

I want to ask yo.. warned this past summer in remarks that# freedom and democracy are at risk.

What,## in your view, poses the greatest# threat to our democratic system?

ANTHONY KENNEDY: Lack of civility.

Aristotle wrote that democracy depends upon# a rational, thoughtful, probing discussion in## which you have disagreements, but you respect the# other person, and you do not -- and you respect## the dignity of the other person.

Those with whom# you disagree have a dignity that you must respect.

And in this age of the cyber age, we have# some problems.

Initially, my thought was,## oh, the cyber age is good because we will# all -- more people will talk to each other.## And I don't know.

There are# 39,000 books in the Library## of Congress.

There are close to two# billion Web sites on the Internet.

And the problem with the# Internet, as a professor from the# University of Michigan,# Barbara Meekam (ph), wrote,## is that, sure, we talk to each other more,# but we talk only to people who feel exactly## the same way as we do.

We don't have -- the# Internet doesn't lend itself to a debate.

If you and I are going out to lunch, we# will find something we disagree with and## we will enjoy the lunch, but we disagree.# That doesn't happen on the Internet.

GEOFF BENNETT: Beyond that, is the court# doing enough to safeguard our democratic## system?

There are those who argue that# the court, with its current trajectory,## is strengthening the executive branch at the# expense of Congress, at the expense of the people.

Is that, in your view, a fair assessment?

ANTHONY KENNEDY: Well, my practice# is not to comment on current issues.

We have -- when I -- during my time on# the court, we had three times as many## cases as they have now.

Does that mean# that we were three times as busy?

No,## because of all of these emergency orders.# And the problem with emergency orders is## that there is little time to have briefs# or argument to think, to think about it.

And the court, in my view, is beginning# to recognize that and beginning to say## there will be an executive order.

Sure,# we will allow it for a couple months,## or we won't allow it for a couple months, but# we will hear arguments and then we will decide.

It's very, very important that the court hear# arguments.

One of the problems that we have is,## as you know, lawyers are brilliant now# about finding a way for almost any social## issue to become part of a lawsuit, so that# courts can decide almost any social issue.

This means that we have to be very, very# careful about the authority and the position## of the courts in deciding so many critical# issues that the public should be deciding## for themselves.

Nino Scalia would say, oh,# you ask what the framers of the Constitution## would do, and if they don't give you the# answer, then you can't come up with it.

And many of us disagree with that.

But it is# quite true that we have to be very careful## that we don't just jump off from what the# framers said and decide whatever we like.

GEOFF BENNETT: On that point, as of last week, the# court had issued 23 rulings in a row for the Trump## administration.

At a time when public opinion# of the Supreme Court is near historic lows,## do you worry that the consistent support# for the Trump administration feeds into## this public perception that the court is# partisan or, worse than that, political?

ANTHONY KENNEDY: The danger of the court# being thought of as partisan and political,## it's very real and of great concern to me.

It begins with the confirmation process.# The confirmation process is too partisan.## There are very few presidents who appointed# justices from a different party.

Eisenhower did## Brennan.

And you could argue about Warren.# Warren was something of an independent.

And so partisanship has always played# a role, but it shouldn't dominate.

We## should talk about temperament and learning# and moderation and thoughtful writing.## We should emphasize that more than# just he or she will decide this my way,## and therefore we're going to appoint# that person as a judge.

That's not right.

GEOFF BENNETT: You have shaped the law in# ways that have touched millions of lives,## expanding rights, defining liberty, at times# dividing the nation with some of the rulings.

When you reflect on that, what part of# your legacy feels most meaningful to you?

ANTHONY KENNEDY: Well, I will# think of this answer later tonight.

(LAUGHTER) ANTHONY KENNEDY: The par.. essential for all of government, for all# thoughtful people to give reasons for what we do## and to be unafraid to discuss those reasons openly# and with an open -- and with a searching mind-set.

GEOFF BENNETT: The book is# "Life, Law & Liberty: A Memoir."

Justice Anthony Kennedy, thanks again for# being here.

A real pleasure to speak with you.

ANTHONY KENNEDY: Thank you so much.

It's my## pleasure and honor to be on this# great, great televisio..