>>> NOW IN NEW YORK, THE TRUMP MACHINE FINDS THAT IT'S NOT IN CONTROL IN THE COURTROOM, WHICH WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT.

THE JUDGE PRESIDING OVER TRUMP'S HUSH MONEY ELECTION INTERFERENCE CASE HAS FINED HIM $9,000 FOR VIOLATING A GAG ORDER.

HE ALSO WARNED TRUMP COULD FACE JAIL TIME IF HE CONTINUES TO DEFY THE ORDER BY PUBLICLY CRITICIZING EXPECTED TRIAL WITNESSES.

STUART STEVENS, A FORMER REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST ADMITS THAT HE IS TILL COMING TO GRIPS WITH TODAY'S GOP AND ITS EMBRACE OF A MAN FACING 91 CRIMINAL CHARGES IN THE GRAND OLD PARTY'S CREEPING CHARACTER.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND STUART STEVENS, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU, WALTER.

THANKS.

>> YOU'VE BEEN A REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST MOST OF YOUR LIFE, WORKED FOR GEORGE BUSH, MITT ROMNEY, AND THEN HAVE BEEN PART OF THE ANTI-TRUMP MOVEMENT IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

NOW YOU'RE WATCHING HIM ON TRIAL.

IN SOME WAYS HE IS RUNNING ON THE NOTION OF GRIEVANCE AND PERSECUTION.

DOES THIS TRIAL HELP HIM OR HURT HIM?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE SORT OF HEADLINE ON THIS IS THAT TRUMP IS STILL A VIABLE CANDIDATE AND HE IS ON TRIAL.

THAT IN ITSELF IS EXTRAORDINARY.

LOOK, I THINK IF YOU'RE ONE OF THE SMART PEOPLE RUNNING THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN, THEY DO HAVE SMART PROFESSIONALS NOW, THIS ISN'T WHAT YOUR IDEAL SCENARIO WOULD HAVE BEEN.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT'S NOT DISQUALIFYING TO TRUMP, WHICH IT WOULD BE FOR ANY OTHER CANDIDATE I CAN THINK OF.

AND WHAT -- THE ESSENCE OF THAT IS THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN, PARTICULARLY IN THIS CYCLE IS BASED ON BEING A VICTIM.

IT'S THE GRIEVANCE CAMPAIGN.

I AM YOUR RETRIBUTION.

THE DEEP STATE IS OUT TO GET US.

WHAT BETTER PROOF THAT THE STATE IS OUT TO GET US THAN THE DEEP STATE HAS ME ON TRIAL.

>> AND YOU SAY THESE ARE REALLY SMART PEOPLE RUNNING THE CAMPAIGN.

ARE THEY GOING TO USE THIS TO HELP THIS POLITICS OF GRIEVANCE?

>> YES.

THEY'RE GOING USE IT TO TRY AS A PROOF POINT.

YOU HAVE TO GET INSIDE THEIR HEADS, WALTER, THE WHOLE TRUMP THING.

SO IN THEIR WORLD, TRUMP WON THE PRESIDENCY.

THE WHITE HOUSE HAS BEEN STOLEN.

AND THE ONLY WAY THAT THEY CAN STOP TRUMP, WHO WAS ILLEGALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT, THEY SAY, FROM WINNING AGAIN IS TO PUT HIM IN JAIL.

SO THIS IS JUST THAT PROCESS OF THE DEEP STATE TRYING TO TAKE AWAY FROM YOU, THE VOTER, YOUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE YOUR PRESIDENT, AND THEY WOULD SAY RESTORE DEMOCRACY.

IT'S SORT OF LIKE THE ALIENS BUILT THE PYRAMIDS.

ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT, EVERYTHING ELSE MAKES A LOFT SENSE.

THE PROBLEM IS ALIENS DIDN'T BUILD THE PYRAMIDS.

BUT THAT'S HOW THEY SEE THE WORLD.

AND THIS FITS INTO THAT WORLD VIEW.

>> IF TRUMP WERE NOT ON TRIAL, IF THERE HAD NOT BEEN ALL OF THESE INDICTMENTS, WOULD HE BE IN THE STRONGER OR WEAKER POSITION?

>> I THINK THAT THE INDICTMENTS HELPED HIM IN THE PRIMARY, BECAUSE IT THEN BECAME NECESSARY TO SUPPORT TRUMP IN THE PRIMARY TO PROVE THAT WHAT THE DEMOCRATS WERE SAYING, AND THEY PUT TO THE SAME DEMOCRATS IN THE DEEP STATE ARE EXACTLY THE SAME.

I DON'T THINK IT IS GOING TO HELP HIM IN THE GENERAL ELECTION.

I THINK THAT THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS GOING BE DISCONCERTING AND WEARING TO PEOPLE TO SEE A POTENTIAL PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, A FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ON TRIAL IN MULTIPLE JURISDICTIONS.

>> BUT WAIT, HAVEN'T PEOPLE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR A YEAR OR TWO, THAT EVENTUALLY IT WILL EVENTUALLY WEAR DOWN?

>> YEAH, BUT THE AUDIENCE HAS BEEN -- THE AUDIENCE HAS BEEN VOTING, HAS BEEN THAT PRIMARY AUDIENCE, AND IT WAS FASCINATING TO SEE THE SPLIT IN THE PRIMARY ELECTORATE THAT PRETTY MUCH THE THRESHOLD BELIEF THAT IF YOU VOTED FOR TRUMP, YOU BELIEVE HE WON THE PRESIDENCY LAST TIME.

VERY FEW OF NIKKI HALEY'S VOTERS BELIEVE THAT.

THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT.

I THINK AS COMPARED TO THE TRUMP CANDIDACY AS SOMEBODY WALKING AROUND WITH A PAPER BAG FULL OF WATER.

I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING LEAK, BUT I THINK THERE IS A VERY GOOD CHANCE IT'S GOING TO GO.

AND WHEN IT GOES, IT'S GOING TO BE VERY HARD TO PUT THE WATER BACK IN THE BAG.

>> WERE YOU SURPRISED THAT REPUBLICAN PARTY, NOT JUST A HARD-CORE BASE, BUT A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THE PRIMARIES RALLIED AROUND HIM THAT WAY?

>> OH, WALTER, YOU KNOW, I HAD A GOING OUT OF BUSINESS SALE WITH ANY OPTIMISM IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

I THINK THAT WE'VE SEEN A COMPLETE COLLAPSE OF ANY MORAL AUTHORITY OF THE PARTY.

AND THE PEOPLE TO BLAME ARE NOT DONALD TRUMP.

DONALD TRUMP IS JUST BEING DONALD TRUMP.

IT'S ALL OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU AND I KNOW AND I HELPED ELECT A LOT OF THEM WHO BEFORE TRUMP, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE LUNCH WITH TRUMP.

THEY WOULDN'T LET TRUMP IN THEIR HOUSE.

THEY KNOW THAT HE'S DESTRUCTIVE TO DEMOCRACY.

THEY KNOW HE'S NOT A CONSERVATIVE.

THEY KNOW THAT PUTIN HELPED ELECT HIM.

AND YET THEY STILL SUPPORT HIM.

>> WHY IS THAT?

.

THAT IS A PROFOUND QUESTION.

AND I ASK MYSELF THAT.

AND THAT LED ME TO WRITE THIS BOOK "IT WAS ALL A LIE."

THE ONLY CONCLUSION I COME TO THAT MAKES ANY SENSE TO ME, AND I THINK MAKES ANY SENSE AT ALL IS THAT ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT WE SPOUSE AS DEEP VALUES, WALTER, THAT THE PARTY HELD, CHARACTER COUNTS, STRONG ON SOVIET UNION, STRONG ON RUSSIA, THE DEFICIT MATTERS, ALL OF THESE THINGS WE SAID WERE VALUES WERE IN FACT JUST MARKETING SLOGANS.

SO, OKAY, THAT'S NOT THE CASE, THEN.

SO CHARACTER REALLY DOESN'T COUNT.

SURE, WE'LL SUPPORT THE CANDIDATE WHO SUPPORTS VLADIMIR PUTIN AND THE LONGEST WAR IN EUROPE SINCE WORLD WAR II.

I DON'T KNOW HOW ELSE TO COME TO A CONCLUSION BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T ABANDON DEEPLY HELD BELIEFS IN A COUPLE OF YEARS.

AND THE PARTY HAS JUST WALKED AWAY FROM THESE.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY NOW DOESN'T REALLY EXIST, AS A NORMAL AMERICAN POLITICAL PARTY IN ANY KIND OF TRADITION.

IT EXISTS TO DEFEAT DEMOCRATS.

AND THAT'S HOW CARTELS OPERATE.

NOBODY ASKED OPEC WHAT IS YOUR HIGHER PURPOSE.

YOU SELL OIL.

AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT LIKE A FUN THING TO ADMIT, AND IOWA SPENT A LOT OF SLEEPLESS NIGHTS TRYING TO COME TO GRIPS WITH IT.

BUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY NOW IS AN AUTOCRATIC MOVEMENT.

AND I THINK WHAT YOU SEE IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT WHERE THEY'RE ACTUALLY TRYING TO MAKE THE CASE THAT A PRESIDENT IS ABOVE THE LAW, IT'S JUST FURTHER PROOF OF THAT.

IT'S WHY THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT ISN'T WELL, VIKTOR ORBAN AND VLADIMIR PUTIN.

>> THERE IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WHO HAVE OF COURSE PUSHED BACK, LIZ CHENEY MOST PROMINENT AMONG THEM, EVEN SENATOR MITT ROMNEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE.

DO YOU SEE THE POSSIBILITY THAT MORE AND MORE REPUBLICANS LIKE THAT WILL COME FORWARD BETWEEN NOW AND THE ELECTION?

>> I DON'T THINK THERE IS MANY REPUBLICANS LIKE THEM.

I THINK IF TRUMP IS CONVICTED, IT MIGHT MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR SOME.

I THINK IT'S VERY INTERESTING TO LOOK AT SAY, CHRIS CHRISTIE, WHO IS A FORMER CLIENT OF MINE.

I LOVE THE GUY.

COULD NOT BELIEVE HE ENDORSED DONALD TRUMP IN 2016.

I REMEMBER STANDING AT THE ATLANTA AIRPORT AND SEEING CNN AND LITERALLY TEARS CAME TO MY EYES.

HOW IS THIS PERSON THAT I LOVE DOING THIS?

AND I THINK HE SAYS IT IS A MISTAKE NOW, WHICH IS GOOD.

WHAT HE IS GOING OUT THERE AND SAYING NOW IS WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN SAID.

BUT WHEN YOU LISTEN TO CHRIS CHRISTIE, HOW DO YOU COME TO ANY OTHER CONCLUSION BUT YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT JOE BIDEN?

SAME WITH ASA HUTCHINSON, WHO RAN UNDER THE REPUBLICAN, FORMER GOVERNOR OF ARKANSAS, ANOTHER FORMER CLIENT OF MINE.

ANOTHER REALLY GOD AND DECENT HUMAN BEING WHO I MAY NOT AGREE WITH HIS POLITICS.

YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT.

LIZ CHENEY HAS TO SUPPORT BIDEN.

MITT ROMNEY WILL SUPPORT BIDEN.

>> WILL YOU THINK?

I THINK THOSE TWO DEFINITELY WILL.

>> BIDEN HASN'T CALLED THEM YET.

DO YOU THINK BIDEN SHOULD REACH OUT TO ALL OF THEM AND CREATE A REPUBLICANS FOR BIDEN COMMITTEE?

>> SURE.

WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, IF A PROMINENT REPUBLICAN CAME TO ME AND SAID I WANT TO ENDORSE JOE BIDEN, MY ADVICE AS WEARING MY POLITICAL CONSULTANT HAT WOULD BE THAT'S GREAT, I WOULD WAIT.

BECAUSE IF YOU DO IT NOW, IT'S NOT GOING TO MEAN AS MUCH AS IF YOU DO IT SAY DURING THE DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION.

AND TIMING IS PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING IN POLITICS.

SO I HOPE THIS WILL HAPPEN.

IF TRUMP IS CONVICTED, IT MAY MAKE THAT ENTRY RAMP A LITTLE SMOOTHER.

BUT REALLY, YOU DON'T NEED A CONVICTION IN ANY OF THESE TRIALS TO KNOW THAT DONALD TRUMP SHOULD NOT BE PRESIDENT.

SO YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST -- WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, WALTER, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY DOESN'T HAVE ROOM FOR CHENEY?

REALLY?

A CHENEY?

WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THAT?

AND THERE IS NO REPUBLICAN PARTY TO GO BACK TO.

AND PEOPLE JUST HAVE TO COME TO GRIPS WITH THAT.

THERE IS A KIND OF FALSE HOPE THAT SOMEHOW WE CAN JUST LOOK BEYOND TRUMP.

AND McCONNELL EXPRESSED A LOT OF THIS, AND A LOT OF THESE SORT OF GENTRY REPUBLICANS HAVE HELD THEIR NOSE AND SAID WELL, WE'RE JUST GOING TO BE ABLE TO PUT TRUMP BEHIND US.

NO.

NO.

THE PARTY -- THERE IS A NEED FOR A CENTER RIGHT CONSERVATIVE PARTY IN AMERICA.

THAT CANNOT BE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AS IT'S CURRENTLY CONSTRUED.

>> SO WHAT HAPPENS IF THERE IS A NEED FOR A CENTER RIGHT PARTY AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS ABANDONED THAT?

WHAT ARE YOU SEEING DOWN THE ROAD?

>> I THINK 2032 IS THE BEST HOPE THAT YOU COULD HAVE A CENTER RIGHT PARTY THAT WILL EMERGE.

I THINK PAIN IS THE BEST TEACHER IN POLITICS, ARGUABLY MAYBE THE ONLY TEACHER.

AND WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN IS REPUBLICANS NEED TO LOSE, AND THEY NEED TO LOSE AGAIN AND AGAIN.

AND THEN OUT OF SOME SENSE OF SURVIVAL, YOU CAN SEE A SANE PARTY EMERGING.

YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THIS ULTIMATELY HAS TO DO WITH RACE, WALTER.

WE'RE A COUNTRY THAT'S HEADED TO BECOMING A MINORITY-MAJORITY COUNTRY.

IF YOU'RE 16 YEARS AND UNDER IN AMERICA, THE MAJORITY ARE NONWHITE.

TRUMP'S BASE IS 85% WHITE.

AND IT'S THAT REALITY THAT DRIVES SO MUCH OF REPUBLICAN PARTY'S EFFORTS TO CHANGE ELECTION LAWS AND TO SORT OF CUATE THE ELECTION.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE POLITICS OF GRIEVANCE AND ANTI-CORPORATE, ANTI-STATE FEELINGS.

HOW DOES ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

FIT INTO THIS EQUATION?

>> IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO WHO RFK JR. IS.

COME OCTOBER AND RFK JR. IS DEFINED AS THE CRUSADING ENVIRONMENTALIST LAWYER WHO TOOK ON BIG CORPORATIONS, THAT GUY IS GOING TO HURT JOE BIDEN.

IF RFK JR. IS DEFINED AS THIS WACKY CONSPIRACY NUT WHO HAS SAID THAT THERE IS NO SAFE VACCINE, WHICH MEANS HE IS BASICALLY THE ANTI-POLIO VACCINE CANDIDATE WHO BELIEVES CONSPIRACIES ABOUT THE CIA KILLING HIS FATHER AND HOW PROZAC LEADS TO SCHOOL SHOOTINGS, I THINK THAT GUY WILL PROBABLY HURT TRUMP MORE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IF IT WAS UP TO ME, I WOULD RATHER HAVE A STRAIGHT RACE WITH NO THIRD PARTY CANDIDATES.

IT'S A CLEAN ERASE.

YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT A CHOICE BETWEEN TRUMP AND BIDEN.

AND THERE ARE VOTERS OUT THERE WHO DON'T LIKE TRUMP, WHO ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH BIDEN.

IF YOU GIVE THEM ANY SORT OF SOCIALLY ACCEPTED OFFRAMP, MY FEAR IS THAT THEY'LL TAKE THEM.

THE GREAT FALLACY OF A NO LABELS CANDIDATE, AND ALL THE CANDIDATES THEY TALKED ABOUT DEFINITELY WOULD HAVE HELPED ELECT DONALD TRUMP.

WHICH MAYBE IS ONE OF THE REASONS IT ULTIMATELY DIDN'T GO FORWARD.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IN THE LINCOLN PROJECT, WE'RE OUT THERE DEFINING ROBERT KENNEDY FOR WHAT HE IS, A CONSPIRACY NUT WHO IS AN ANTI-VAXXER.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

AND I HOPE THAT'S WHO HE IS IN OCTOBER.

>> THE LAST FEW LINES OF YOUR OP-ED, LET ME QUOTE THEM TO YOU.

YOU SAY "WE SHOULD NOT NORMALIZE HOW EXTRAORDINARY IT IS THAT MR. TRUMP IS STILL A VIABLE CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT."

"THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN WILL WATCH THE SPECTACLE UNFOLD ASKING HOW IS THIS GUY STILL IN THE RACE."

SO LET ME ASK YOU, HOW IS THIS GUY STILL IN THE RACE?

>> IT GOES I THINK TO A FUNDAMENTAL HOLLOWNESS THAT EXISTED WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT TRUMP BROUGHT TO LIGHT.

>> BUT ALSO THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE?

>> WELL, YOU LOOK AT AMONG DEMOCRATS, TRUMP IS NOT GETTING A LOT OF SUPPORT.

BUT, YES, YOU WOULD HAVE TO SAY HE IS APPEALING TO A DARK SIDE OF AMERICA.

AND WE'VE HAD OTHER CANDIDATES WHO DID THAT.

GEORGE WALLACE DID IT.

WE JUST DIDN'T HAVE HIM NOMINATED BY A MAJOR POLITICAL PARTY.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY REJECTED GEORGE WALLACE.

REPUBLICAN PARTY EMBRACED IT.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN BY THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY EMBRACING TRUMP, IT HAS GIVEN A PERMISSION STRUCTURE FOR PEOPLE WHO WERE TROUBLED BY A LOT OF TRUMP TO SAY THAT WELL, HE MUST NOT BE THAT BAD.

I THINK HE IS A LITTLE WEIRD AND ALL THIS, BUT HEY, MY GOVERNOR, MY SENATOR, THEY'RE NORMAL HUMANS.

THEY SUPPORT TRUMP.

AND THAT IS THE FAILURE OF THE PARTY NOT TO STAND UP TO TRUMP.

BUT, LOOK, IF YOU'RE GOING ASK ME IF DONALD TRUMP WINS THIS NEXT RACE, DOES IT SAY SOMETHING THAT'S VERY, VERY TROUBLING ABOUT THE FUTURE OF DEMOCRACY?

MY ANSWER OVERWHELMINGLY IS YES.

YOU KNOW, IT'S DIFFICULT TO TALK ABOUT THIS WITHOUT SOUNDING ALARMIST, AND LANGUAGE IS ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT STRUGGLE WITH.

BUT I THINK IF DONALD TRUMP WINS THIS ELECTION, IT WILL BE THE LAST ELECTION THAT WE CAN RECOGNIZE AS A NORMAL AMERICAN ELECTION.

I KNOW THESE PEOPLE.

AS BAD AS YOU THINK THEY ARE, THEY ARE WORSE.

THEY WANT A DIFFERENT AMERICA.

AND THEY'RE OPEN ABOUT IT WHEN YOU REALLY LISTEN TO THEM.

AND THAT'S WHY THEY EMBRACE RUSSIA SO MUCH.

THEY LOOK AT RUSSIA AND THEY SAY OKAY, RUSSIA.

NO NON-WHITE PEOPLE IN POWER.

PUTIN SAYS THERE IS NO GAYS IN RUSSIA.

THERE IS NO WOMEN IN POWER.

ELECTIONS ARE PERFORMATIVE, BUT NOT DECISIVE.

THAT LOOKS PRETTY GOOD.

AND THEY EMBRACE THAT.

SO THE IDEA AMERICA IS RAPIDLY CHANGING.

NONCOLLEGE EDUCATED WHITE VOTERS ARE THE LARGEST DECLINING DEMOGRAPHIC IN THE COUNTRY.

AND THINGS ARE UNSETTLING AND TROUBLING, AND THEY WOULD LIKE TO STOP THAT.

AND THEY WILL -- THEY'RE ABOUT THE BUSINESS OF TRYING TO CHANGE ELECTIONS SO THAT THEY REDUCE THE POWER OF THOSE WHO SEE A DIFFERENT AMERICA.

AND THAT'S THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE FACILITATES THAT.

BIDEN WON BY 7 MILLION VOTES, BUT IT'S 45,000 VOTES THAT CHANGED HANDS IN JUST EXACTLY THE RIGHT PLACES, TRUMP WOULD STILL WIN.

SO I THINK IT'S A RACE ABOUT THE FUTURE OF AMERICA.

I THINK THE CLICHE THIS IS THE MOST RACE OF OUR LIFETIME HAS NEVER BEEN MORE TRUE.

>> STUART STEVENS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.