(upbeat music) - Welcome everyone to the Penny Stamps Distinguished Speaker series.

(gentle music) Welcome to the Penny Stamps Speaker series.

My name's Chrisstina Hamilton, the series director.

And now as we have turned the corner into spring and into the light and the end of the semester is right in our sights, it's time for some fun.

So today we present animator, cartoonist and author, Lisa Hanawalt, and yeah, some fans in the house.

And Lisa is gonna be in conversation today with comedian, blogger and television writer, Samantha Irby.

Yes, more fans in the house.

A big thank you to our partners for their support today.

We have the Ann Arbor District Library and Vault of Midnight.

Yeah.

And of course we have our regular series partners, the U of M Arts Initiative, the series Partners, Detroit PBS, PBS Books, and WNET's All Arts and Michigan Public 91.7.

How can I forget that?

You will note Fall to Midnight is actually with us out in the lobby today and they have books available of each of our guests.

So instead of our regular Q&A in here today, we're gonna have a meet and greet out in the lobby with both authors who will be happy to sign books directly after their stage conversation.

So please do remember to turn off your cell phones, take a break from technology.

A few words of introduction to our guests.

Lisa Hanawalt is an artist and writer, best known for her animation work.

She is the production designer and producer of the acclaimed Netflix series, "BoJack Horseman."

(audience cheers and applauds) A lot of you watch that.

She's also the creator and executive producer of the surreal animated Netflix and Adult Swim Show, "Tuca & Bertie."

Oh, even more fans.

And most recently, producer and production designer of "Long Story Short."

That's the newest one you gotta get on board.

Hanawalt works across comics, animation, illustration with projects ranging from TV shows and books to apparel, murals, music videos, and gallery exhibitions.

Her books which are for sale out in the lobby, "My Dirty Dumb Eyes," "Hot Dog Taste Test," and "Coyote Dog Girl" showcase her distinctive blend of wit, surrealism, and personal storytelling.

To join her on stage here this evening, we have a very special matchup with friend and collaborator, Samantha Irby, who is the creator and author of the blog, "Bitches Gotta Eat."

It's true.

Where she writes humorous observations about her own life and modern society.

Her books, "We are Never Meeting in Real Life" and, "Wow, No Thank You" were both New York Times best sellers.

She's been a writer and co-producer for multiple television shows, including the reboot of "Sex in the City, "Work in Progress," "Shrill," and "Tuca & Bertie."

So before we bring our guests out here to talk, I thought we'd just take a moment to see three really short trailers of Lisa's work.

So, now.

(audience cheers and applauds) (upbeat music) (upbeat theme music continues) (audience cheers and applauds) (upbeat theme music) (birds cawing) (upbeat theme music) (audience cheers and applauds) (upbeat theme music) (audience cheers and applauds) (upbeat theme music) - And hello, hello.

And now, and well, it's audio, audio, audio.

God, this is so annoying.

And now.

Oh my God, this kind stuff drives me crazy.

And now please welcome to the stage, Lisa Hanawalt and Samantha Irby.

(audience cheers and applauds) - Hello everybody.

- Hello.

- Is yours on?

- Well, can you hear?

Yeah, it's on, right?

That's just my loud ass.

- It says- - Mine's very on.

- Okay, well if you can't hear, I'll shout.

- Lisa, thank you for coming to... (audience laughs) Is it one of those?

Thanks for coming to Michigan, we're happy to have you.

- Thanks Sam, thanks everybody.

- I wrote some smart questions and I have a lot of dumb questions to so we could have fun.

And my first very smart question is, what made you hire me for two seasons of "Tuca and Bertie?"

- This is a great question.

When we interviewed you, you immediately talked about having diarrhea.

And I was like, that's my girl.

Like, Sam gets it.

I don't know, I just, I felt like a, it was a kindred spirit thing.

- Yeah, me too.

- Which you just felt when we were talking about "The Little Mermaid" and I was like, Ursula was the protagonist, you were like, you get it.

- Yes, we get each other.

We're having some... - Okay, I don't know what what, okay, I'm just gonna talk.

- Sound check.

- Check, check, check.

- We did do a sound check earlier.

- Yeah.

- Okay.

Well, hopefully, hopefully they'll sort it out.

- You'll just have to listen to that tinnitus sound for the rest of the talk.

(Samantha laughs) - It was the best TV job I have ever had.

- Oh my God.

- And thank you for asking me to do it.

- It was my favorite TV job too.

- It was a lot of fun.

So they're not making a lot of TV shows right now.

They're not green lighting a lot of TV shows.

- There's still shows getting made, but yeah, it's been rough.

- Yeah, they're not making my shows, I should say.

- Yeah.

- I've pitched several that they have been like, "Bitch, get out of here."

- I also pitched one that they were like, "No."

- Yeah, so they're not making our new shows.

And I wonder like, how do you handle fear?

Or do you ever have the fear that like you'll never be hired again or you'll never be allowed to make your own thing again?

- I think I'll always find a way to make stuff 'cause like even during the writer's strike, when I couldn't work for like six months, I just started making stickers.

I'm like a crab clinging to a cliff wall and I'll find a way to be creative and get my stuff out there.

Oh, is that for... Here's a lifeline for you.

- Is this better?

- Okay!

- Yay!

- That's why you weren't laughing, right?

Because you couldn't hear my hilarious jokes?

Okay.

- Does mine sound okay or does it sound wildly echoey?

It sounds good?

Okay.

- Okay.

- All I care about is how it's being heard by you guys.

- Are you afraid of anything?

- Yes, I'm afraid of a lot of things.

I'm afraid of public speaking.

(audience laughs) But I'm realizing the things I'm most afraid of, like the projects I'm most afraid of working on or the things I'm most afraid of doing are sometimes the most important things, like the story I'm afraid of telling.

Like in my new book, there's like a comic I'm afraid of showing, but I'm just, I'm like, maybe that's 'cause it's important.

And like the Jelly Lakes episode of Tuca and Bertie, I was really afraid of... I like had a panic attack during the first like animatic meeting about it.

And yeah, sometimes those are the most important things for me to work on.

- Do you just like push through?

Do you just like kind of put your pliegers on and not think about the reaction?

- I think about all of it and then I just continue forwards, 'cause the only other way to be is to be, to react to that fear and to not do it.

- Yeah.

- And that seems like impossible.

Like I don't wanna hold myself back from telling those stories or doing those things.

I started taking an improv class to try to get better at like... And then I'm, I just last night impulsively- - Yes, and?

- Yes, and I, last night impulsively signed up for a standup comedy class.

So I'm just, I'm trying to, which horrifies me and immediately I was like, I've made a grievous error, like I'm going to die.

- Do you like have to do standup to graduate?

Do you have to like do a set?

- Oh God, probably.

I didn't even think of that.

There's probably like a class show.

- I'm coming.

- You're flying out?

- Yeah, I'll fly to LA for that.

- I just, I think I need to do things that make me uncomfortable and do things I'm afraid of.

Otherwise I won't, I am just gonna be boring, I don't know.

- My psychiatrist, shout out to her is always like, "What is the feeling that you wanna have?

And can you fake that feeling?"

And I find that, especially when writing things that are really personal that I'm like, I'll just fake, like, this is a great story that everyone wants to hear.

I'll just fake like I'm confident about it just to get it on the page and then send it out.

And then once it's out of my hands, I'm like... - Well, there's nothing you do.

Whatever happens is none of your business now.

People will try to make it your business, but... - Yeah.

- What can you do?

Yeah, that's great advice is to tell yourself a little story that might be real or fake about how what you're doing is great and then just worry about it later.

- How do you decide like what you put in your books versus like what you put on in a show?

- Oh, that's a great question.

Here, I should like cycle down and show things from.... So that's like an upcoming book.

- Yeah.

- I don't know.

Like I write stuff down and draw stuff all the time and then I later decide sometimes what bucket it goes in because I work on so many different things.

Sometimes I don't know if something's gonna be in a show or if it's gonna be in a comic or, you know?

I kind of figure it out later.

Like I'll write a joke and then later I'll be like, oh, this joke, it seems like something this character that I came up with would say.

And I have to like comb back through my scraps, which are very disorganized in my notes app or literally like on napkins and in sketchbooks and be like, oh, I think I had something that related to this other thing.

And I'm pretty disorganized with it.

- [Samantha] Do you have a preferred medium?

Like TV or books or web comics or?

- [Lisa] I think comics will always feel like my home.

Like the thing that I started making when I was very young.

I like TV, I hope I con continue to make it.

I don't know about the future of TV sometimes.

But I think there will always be, even if like, it's hard to pitch a show to like Netflix currently or whatever, there will be smaller scale things happening.

There's always like independent things up and coming and it might mean like less money, but that might also mean more control creatively.

It's like making a zine versus like, - Yeah, I always find that like making something for a like faceless executive who you're never gonna meet, while it does pay better, it feels less like making a thing that's actually yours.

- [Lisa] Yeah, it feels harder.

Like even making Tuca & Bertie, there were all these hurdles to jump through and I had to like get on the phone and pitch every episode to the network.

And they were cool, they didn't give a lot of notes, but when they did give notes it was kind of like, ah, I have to like deal with this?

- Yeah, and it's always some guy who's like, I think you should.

And they're like, sir, you don't, this is about a girl getting a bird woman getting her period.

What do you know about that?

- Right.

And then some of the notes were like, "Have you ever watched a cartoon before?"

(Samantha laughs) There was one that was like after Tuca's bones jump out of her body 'cause she's so horny, her skeleton jumps out of her skin.

He was like, how do the bones get back in her body?

Should we show that in the next scene?

Because in the next scene, she's just back to normal.

How did she get back to normal?

I'm like... - "How did you get this job, sir?"

(laughs) Why did you choose this?

Okay, I wanna talk about like jobs you don't get 'cause I've had a lot of those.

I worked on the first season of "Shrill," which is Lindy West Show, thank you to the six people who watched it.

- I loved it, it was so good.

That's more than six.

- Yeah, no, that's, I was just trying to get them to scream.

But I wasn't asked back for the consecutive seasons.

I'm like, I was like confused and like kind of devastated.

But also I was kind of like, great, it's like it's not on me anymore.

Like if it sucks, it's on somebody else.

And I wanted to know like what you feel either like when your shows have ended or if you've had like something pitched that you, were let go from.

- Yeah, I mean, first of all I'll say that probably wasn't about you and it was probably- - [Samantha] Oh no, it definitely wasn't.

- Yeah, there were some- - I'm perfect.

- Some shifts happening in control beyond, yeah.

I lost a job recently and I was stressing about it the whole time I was working on it because I kept being like, I'm trying to do a good job, but I feel like they're not happy and they keep shifting what direction they wanna take it in, and I just feel like they're not, and I'm such a pleaser when I'm working on something, I really want people to like what I'm doing and I wanna like it too.

And then when they were like, "Hey, we're so sorry, we're moving in a different direction and you're not the right artist for this," I just felt so relieved.

I thought I would feel rejected, but instead I was like, "Oh yeah, this was just not a good fit.

And it's not because I'm bad or they're bad, like it just wasn't the right fit."

Oh, thank God.

Like, and I can move on and just like do something else now.

- How hard do you push back when you like get a note or a directional change or something like that?

- I think that I just have to fundamentally like, agree with it or I'll ignore it and not, I have to respect the note.

But I think there's a lot of ways to interpret a note, you know?

And I can see where like if people are making a note about something, it's not necessarily that I should take their specific note about it, but there's something about that thing that they're not happy with, and I need to look at that again and see if I can make it better and make it something that I like better.

Like that's the most important thing.

But yeah, I mean, I'm pretty agreeable.

- Me too, I'm like, whatever you want.

- Yeah, I'm rarely like, "No!"

I did say no to that Tuca note, but did respect it.

- You were right.

- Yeah.

- Speaking of Tuca and Bertie.

- [Lisa] Here's Tuca.

- I know they are sort of like halves of you.

Like there's a little bit of you in each one.

And like, we both write really personal work, but mine is for real about me.

It's like, Sam did this, it was dumb, she looks stupid whatever.

But like, is, does the distance help you like putting it into a character rather than like, 'cause there's no like little Lisa comic.

Is it easier to like write about yourself using characters?

- Yes, and so that's what I did for a long time.

And I drew myself as an animal and I still do, but now I'm trying to learn to like, write more about myself.

Like, so in my upcoming book, there's some like really, really personal stuff.

These are just silly things about horses.

But there's stuff I wrote, like here, I wrote about freezing my eggs and then I wrote about like being single and my big breakup and stuff.

And it feels, even though I'm still drawing myself as like a bird with a top bun, because I still occasionally draw myself as a human, but it's just, it makes it a little easier.

But yeah, I mean like writing stuff that's direct memoir is so scary.

- Yeah.

- Because then when people, - If I wrote a novel, it would be much easier to admit like how fucked up I am, if it was like, it's not me, it's this lady.

- Exactly.

Yeah, exactly, it's like, oh, they're not criticizing me, they're criticizing Bertie for her decisions.

I would never do that.

(Samantha laughs) But like, yeah, when you're drawing yourself or writing about yourself and if people criticize it, it's hard not to be like, oh, they're criticizing me and my decisions and my personality.

That's hard, I don't know.

- That's why I don't read anything anyone ever says.

- [Lisa] Oh, that's how you deal with it?

- Good or bad.

I don't, no nothing.

- That's so smart.

- Well, I'm a big baby and I can't, like even, it's so hard when you, 'cause like I don't take any of my stuff like personally, it's not like, oh, I ripped this wound open and I'm giving it to you.

It's scabbed over it's, I've worked through it, I've yelled at all my friends about it.

So it's not like that raw, but still hearing anyone's take on it, I just wanna like tell them like what they got wrong, or like plead with them to love it.

Like, oh, you hated that thing?

Well this is what I was trying.

And in books like, because no one reads, it's a little easier, there are fewer people to argue with.

But like with TV working on it, just like that was the biggest thing I've ever worked on.

And the entire internet hated it.

And there was no way for me to contact each person on the internet who hated it and tell them that it wasn't my fault that Miranda's hair looked like that or whatever it was people were blaming me for.

And like, even when it's like not you, it feels sort of like at you.

So I can't, I avoid all analysis.

- It's tough, I mean there's this like instinct to try to correct the record and that's so, like as soon as someone's already commenting on it or has a hot take, like it's out of your hands and you just can't.

I still make that mistake though.

I mean like this little video Substack just did, just went out like this week.

And in it, I'm making fun of Kevin Costner because I did something called Costner Watch where I watched 33 Kevin Costner movies and I was obsessed with him.

And then in the big- - Can we have a ranking of some of them?

Like top three?

- "The Bodyguard."

- Yes.

- I like "Dances With Wolves."

I can't defend it, but I like it.

- Yeah.

- And then what's the third?

I mean, there's so many, it's hard to... - Did you watch that one where he was like an escaped prisoner and he kidnapped a little boy?

- Yes, I hate that one.

- Oh see, I like one.

- He is hot, he is hot in it though.

There's a part where he does something to a waitress, I don't know what, and it's sexual.

And then later he says he bit her butt.

I'm like, that's what he did?

He bit her on the butt?

I like that scene.

(Samantha laughs) - Oh yeah, I was about to say, what are you objecting to?

- No, I like that part.

- Okay.

- But in this video.

- Costner video.

- I say whoa, and then I realized that he's gross actually.

And he's like, he's kind of a loser and people got so mad, you know?

And I'm like, I'm being facetious, like I'm obsessed with him.

But so I felt the need to be like, "No, I love him actually, don't be mad at me."

But then it's like, who cares?

- [Samantha] See I care, so I can't even read it.

- I care a little bit, I just... But maybe it'll get his attention.

- God, that would be amazing.

- It probably will.

- That's really my dream is that like I write about somebody in there.

So I wrote about Dave Matthews because I'm the one person who loves Dave Matthews.

- You do?

You're such a freak.

- And he sent me two bottles of his wine.

I know.

- Oh my God.

- They were signed.

I don't even drink wine, so my wife drank it.

But we have the bottle like displayed and I was like, "This is why I do this.

So that someone who I admire will have their assistant send me a bottle of their wine with a fake signature on it."

- [Lisa] What do we have to do to get on Tom Cruise's list where we get the coconut cake every year?

- I'll do whatever.

- [Lisa] I know people who get that coconut cake.

- You do?

- I don't even eat cake, but I want it.

I just wanna be on the list.

- You gotta put him, Tuca and Tom or something.

- Tuca and Tom.

That's my spinoff.

- Okay, I'm gonna ask you some stupid questions.

- Okay, we're getting stupid.

- Okay, let's do some, fuck, marry, kills.

(audience laughs) Okay.

- [Lisa] This will be helpful for all the students.

- [Samantha] I mean you, they like to, you don't wanna hear craft talk the whole time, do you?

Okay, fuck, marry, kill, Alf, ET Robin Williams as Mork.

(audience laughs) Kill Alf.

(Samantha laughs) - Fuck ET.

This is hard.

Marry Robin Williams as Mork.

(Samantha laughs) - Okay.

- I like a hairy little guy.

Which you'd think Alf would, but I find Alf annoying.

Fuck ET though, it's hard to imagine.

- I mean that finger.

- I know.

(audience laughs) - It's probably great.

It's probably great.

Okay, fuck, marry, kill, vomiting, diarrhea, having a fever.

- Marry having a fever.

Fuck diarrhea.

Kill, vomiting.

I don't vomit.

- You don't?

- No, I'm an emetophobe and I've barfed once in the last... Okay, so I barfed once when I was 16 and once in 2013.

And those are the last two times I barfed.

- Have you written a book about that?

- No.

- Please!

- And when I barfed in like 2013, I had Norovirus and my partner was like, barfing, barfing, barfing, barfing.

And I did once and I was just like, I'm done.

I got it all out.

- You can control it?

- My body just won't do it.

- Wow.

- What if I just did it right now?

- That would be the greatest thing that ever happened.

- That'd be great.

I'm over my fear!

- Wow.

- Sorry, front row.

(Samantha laughs) - I am curious about this.

Do you work on multiple projects at the same time?

- Yes.

- And like, how do you keep them separated in your mind?

- Probably to a stupid degree where I'm like, wow, I really should focus.

I'm like, I like to bounce from one thing to another 'cause I get bored and then like this project, I'll hit a spot where I'm like, this is hard, I don't know how to do this, it's too hard, I'm bored.

And then I jump to something else and I ignore it.

But it can be helpful because then- - Do you come back to it?

- Yeah, when I come back sometimes by then I'm like, okay, I figured it out.

And by then I'm bored of the other thing.

But I do it.

Like at one point recently I was working on like six different things at once and that was too much 'cause then it's like at that point, you're not finishing anything.

- Were they all, was it like six TV things?

Book, TV?

- It was like- - Comics?

- It was like book comics, TV, other thing.

And then like I was like, oh, what if I made hats?

Like it's just like I... And they all feel equally important.

But then I realized like the one I'm ignoring is the one I'm afraid of and it's turning into a ghost because I haven't looked at it in too long.

So I have to like be like, then I have to be like in my calendar, like today I'm working on this and only this and ignoring.

- And you stick to that?

- Yeah, sometimes.

- I adopted one of your productivity hacks, which is to reward myself with a sticker.

- With stickers.

- When I get work done.

I don't have many stickers because I hate doing work.

But I wanted to know like, what other, do you have other tricks?

And I want to know like, do you listen to music while you draw?

Do you, like what's the setup?

- Sometimes I do, sometimes I like do my standing desk and then I listen to like techno and I'm just like, and I like get through something really fast.

And then sometimes, I'm listening to a podcast or watching a show and I'm barely paying attention to what I'm working on.

Sometimes I need to cowork with a buddy.

Like, 'cause then, I don't know, I heard that's helpful if you have attention issues is like having someone else who's also working it's like mirroring.

- I should try that.

- It does help.

- I would get too competitive though.

I'd be like, let me see your thing and then be like, "Mine's better."

- That can be helpful, a little competition.

- Helpful in ending a friendship with my co-writing buddy.

- You get all weird with it.

The sticker thing helps sometimes.

Although I had one for practicing piano and last month, I only had one sticker.

Sad, so this month I'm trying to crush it and like actually stick to it.

But when I was trying to finish a screenplay, which was really hard and I was ignoring it.

And then I use the sticker system.

Like if I sit down and work on this for 10 minutes, I get a sticker.

Because if you work on something for 10 minutes, you're gonna work on it for at least an hour.

Usually it's just the getting started is the hardest part 'cause you're like transitioning from one activity to another is just so difficult for me.

- So finishing, I always find that finishing for me, like even if I know, I always write to an ending.

Like I can't start a thing unless I know how it's gonna end.

- Oh that's nice.

- But sometimes- - I never know.

- It's the only way.

- [Lisa] Oh my god, I never know what the ending.

- Otherwise, you would keep like noodling on forever and ever and ever.

Or I would and then it would be like a bloated, horrible thing.

But I have to know where it- - Having just did that with my book where I noodled on it for seven years and then had to edit it from like 400 pages down to 75 or whatever.

- Okay, let's talk, I didn't know that, let's talk about that.

How do you edit?

Because I can't.

I have to like stop when I hit the number they want.

Otherwise if the, it's like killing my darlings if they tell me I have to cut something.

- I had to print it all out and lay it all out on my floor and then just be like, these things I don't like, they make me feel bad when I look at them.

Kind of like Marie Kondo style.

Just like, does it bring joy?

No.

And then the rest where I was like, I don't know, I just handed it to my editor and she was like, "Okay, we suggest maybe cutting this amount."

And then I was like, "Wow, great, I don't miss the things you took out.

Let's add back in all the weird stuff about Kevin Costner and then we're good to go."

And she was like, great.

So I needed help.

- Do you work from an outline?

- I should.

For the book, I didn't.

- You didn't?

- No.

I truly didn't know what this book was.

- That's so scary to me.

I have to like at least have a scaffolding.

- I mean I- - Before I start the building.

- I pitched this book like six years ago to drawn in quarterly and put together my fancy little book proposal.

And then they were like, "What is this?"

Which hurt my feelings.

But they were right.

'cause I was like, this is a book about horses.

And they were like, "Well what's the story though?

Like, what is personal about this?"

Because it was just very, it was kind of straightforward and bland.

And then I was like, I don't know.

And I put it in the flat file and forgot about it for years.

And then when I came back to it, I realized, oh it is about horses, but it's also about me and it's about relationships.

And I had to go through like a full midlife crisis and then write about that.

And it just became something totally different.

And I think some projects, you know what they are from start to finish and you can outline them and have an ending and execute them, and some just are, you have to go on a journey with it.

- I think like maybe, well I don't know, I don't want to analyze like why, but I can't, like, I don't do anything that's not for like, 'cause I have a contract to do it.

You know what I mean?

I don't do anything like really for myself that can become its own thing.

And I really admire that you can just like work on a thing and let it come together.

- I think I didn't even realize that's what I was working on, I was just making stuff.

And then at some point last year, Tracy, my editor was like, Hey, do you wanna like have another book?

And she came over and physically like just looked at my piles of stuff and she was like, "Yeah, there's a book here."

And I was like, "Okay, great, let's do it."

And then I set to work like filling in the gaps and, but yeah, I think it would've been overwhelming to me to have like an actual book deal before I knew what it was.

I think different people work differently.

- Yeah.

I can only work if like there's a, guillotine hanging over my neck.

- It is helpful to have a deadline.

- It's like, Random House will sue you for not turning this in.

And I'm like, "Guess what?

I'm gonna turn it in."

- That is helpful, and I do sometimes need my like, my managers to be like, to give me a fake deadline for something.

'cause otherwise, 'cause I wrote like a screenplay on spec, like nobody asked me to do it, I just wanted to do it.

And I like working that way, I like working, doing my own thing and then, and then bringing someone my almost finished pile of stuff and being like, "Look what I made.

Do you like it?"

But I need them to give me deadlines.

- [Samantha] How much are your managers a part of your, like your work or your creative process?

- [Lisa] Not big.

- [Samantha] Like do you get feedback from them?

- Yes.

Yeah, when I've like finished something, I want them to give me some feedback just from a standpoint of like, can I sell this?

Because they know the market and I don't, I don't like to think about that kind of thing.

But yeah, but as far as the actual, and they gave me some actually really helpful notes, but like most of the... I don't know, I'm not, it's not a super creative thing.

- Yeah, I don't, I have an agent and he knows what I'm supposed to be working on, but I don't ever send him anything because even him, I'm like, if I hear a bad thing, I'm gonna think the whole thing is bad and I have to be done before I hear what sucks about it.

- I'm easily discouraged.

- Me too.

- I'm a baby.

- Me too.

- I'm discouraging enough to myself.

Let's say that, like I need other people to be very kind.

- Yes.

- Although there are people that like Rafael where I'm like, "Give it to me spicy.

Like give me your true thoughts because I can take it."

- And he does.

I've seen him be spicy about ideas and I am fascinated by your collaborative work with him.

Like, I've gotten to see you two work together and it's, I mean, you guys, it's really amazing to watch, they're both like geniuses for real, to watch you guys like sort through an idea and figure out like how to say what you wanna say or how to put a thing together or like what visuals will best convey the story you wanna tell.

And as a person who doesn't really work collaboratively, I wanna know like what your process with him is like and who gets the final say on like what Mr.

Peanut Butter looks like or you know.

- I don't usually collaborate and I've realized how rare it is to find like a good collaborator as, someone I've tried doing it with other people and it didn't quite have the same feel.

Yeah, it's like a marriage and like I've known Rafael forever, went to high school together, did theater together in high school.

So there's a bit of like a language shared.

And like he's such a good communicator and he's also so open to collaboration.

Like he doesn't have as much ego about it, like he doesn't, he's not like a total control freak about things, even though he is very, very detail oriented, but it's in a way that I really respect.

I don't know, it's just like so nice to work with someone like that where there's mutual respect and I feel like he gives me like a very long rein or lead to explore, and so I am able to... I think that's very rewarding, or I can put myself into it.

Like with Long Story Short, like, the character of Shira just has like so much of me in her, like she dresses how I dressed in high school and like, I don't know, I wanna bring my own stuff to a project.

I don't really, I don't like to just kind of clock out and like be like, "Oh, it's just my day job, whatever."

- Is he always like gung-ho about whatever you wanna bring?

Do you guys fight?

Have there been any wrestling matches over stories?

- I mean, sometimes he's not gung-ho and I used to tease him by saying I was gonna put plant people in BoJack and he really didn't like that.

So I'm just like, great, it goes in Tuca and Bertie.

We did have one fight and it was like a big deal and he wrote about it on his blog at the time and it ended up being an NPR story.

And it was because it was a joke on BoJack where he had two people standing and one of them's a dog and like a car goes by and then the dog's tongue like whips and gets slobber all over the other person.

And I made them both women, and he said that that complicated the joke.

That it had a like, big gross dog, woman, you know?

And I- - That's the title of my next book, "Big Gross Dog Woman."

- Big Gross Dog lady.

And he is like, this complicates the joke, people are gonna be like, why are they women?

And I pushed back and pushed back, which I don't normally do and for days.

And then finally he was like, "Oh, I'm being stupid."

And that speaks to what a great collaborator he is that he had the humility to be like, "Okay, I'm wrong, I'm gonna write about how I'm wrong, I'm gonna be part of this NPR story about how I was wrong."

It's just like he's always like evolving.

- How did it feel being written about?

That would drive me crazy, I think if someone wrote a story about an interaction with me, only because it's like, "Well I'm the one who writes the stories about how things go, not you."

- I like there being a story about how I was right.

(Samantha laughs) There have been times when I've been wrong too, like that's not to be like, and then I taught him a lesson, like there's been plenty of times where I was like, no and I want it to be like this.

And he'd be like, but that doesn't really make sense.

And I'd be like, oh yeah, you're right, you're right.

Like, that always happens.

But yeah, good guy.

- The best.

Who are your like artistic inspirations?

- My artistic inspirations?

- Or like things that like inspire your personal work.

- You.

- Aww, that's true.

- I think just like, yeah, other fellow weirdos where I'm like, "Oh yes, I connect to this."

And it's often like a comedian or a writer or an artist and like a weird lady that just makes me, reminds me of like, oh, that's why I like to do what I do.

And like, here's a fellow weirdo doing it too, and how nice.

- Do you ever get, like I'll like see somebody's like cool essay or cool book or whatever and I'll be like, "Man, I gotta fucking quit.

This is way better than my shit."

Like does that ever happen to you?

- Oh yeah.

- I find that the older I get and the more, and I love like young people doing cool new shit, but it's also like save some for grandma.

- Oh my God, yeah, there's so many like young up and coming cartoonists who are like way better at drawing than me and like they're writing such cool, interesting stuff and I'm just like, whoa!

And you're like 20 and you made this?

Like, I'm not gonna make a book this good till I'm 65, and then maybe not even then because it's... - And then they won't want it 'cause they don't want old women's things.

- Yeah.

- That's how I feel.

- I don't know.

But then I'm just like, well there's room for everything.

And there's people who like what I do and people who like what they, and it's exciting to see and then it just kind of makes me feel reinvigorated in a way.

- Yeah, no, I do love to read like a new thing and then be like, "Man, people are still finding ways to change.

I'm not gonna change, but good for them."

- Bless them.

- Good for them.

- Also like, like something written by a 20-year-old is never gonna quite feel the same as something written by like a 40 or 50-year-old or an 80-year-old.

And I do find that as I age, of course I'm interested in stories from fellow people who are going through what I'm going through or like in the same place in life.

And so I'm kinda like, oh, there's always gonna be like a spot for whatever bullshit I wanna write about.

- Yeah, there will always be a spot for horse, horny, horse bullshit.

- Horny horse girls.

- What are you watching on TV these days?

- I'm watching "The Pitt."

- Okay.

Fuck, marry, kill.

Dr.

Robbie, Dr.

Abbott, Dr.

Langdon.

- This is so hard.

Because like Dr.

Robbie and Dr.

Abbott, kind of similar dudes, but I'm feeling like Dr.

Abbott's further along in his journey.

And so my instinct to be like, well marry Dr.

Robbie 'cause I love him, but no, 'cause I feel like I could fix him, but no, you can't, you cannot fix him.

He's squirrely and potentially suicidal, I dunno what he's doing on his motorcycle ride.

- Yeah.

- Okay.

- He's been really angry the last couple of episodes and I'm like, "Come on, you're too cute to be so mad."

- Right.

So, but fuck him and then marry Dr.

Abbott 'cause I feel like he's got things, he's a little steadier.

And then, I'm sorry Dr.

Langdon gotta go because he's so needy, he's just like, he's like a puppy.

He's like, "Does Dr.

Robbie like me?"

- I'd put him on a leash.

(Lisa and Samantha laugh) I'd walk him around.

Okay, fuck, marry, kill, vitamin D, vitamin C, vitamin B12.

- I'm gonna kill vitamin B12 because I don't take it.

And because whenever I do take it, it makes my pee super bright yellow and then I'm like, "Well do I have to balance this out with B6?"

Like, which Bs?

And I just, I'm like, I don't know.

And so, and then I'm gonna, I'm gonna fuck vitamin C because it is fun sometimes to take when you're feeling a little sick, but I don't take it every day.

And then I'm gonna, what was the other one, Vitamin D?

- Yeah.

- Vitamin D, I'm gonna marry vitamin D, I take it every day.

- Oh you do?

For that.

- Applause.

- All the depressed people are like, "Yeah, we do too."

- Yeah, well, especially during winter in Michigan, I assume it's helpful.

You're probably not getting much sunlight.

- Everybody is taking, yeah, we're taking our calcium vitamin D chews.

- I'm so proud of all of you, you're doing a great job taking care of yourselves.

- Does it ever freak you out that your work means so much to people?

Like to have your like intensely personal stuff like resonate with someone?

To me it's like, it's a gift but it also, it makes me feel weird 'cause I'm like, oh, I feel very connected to this person I don't know who feels very connected to me.

And if I think about it too hard, like that's a weird, that's a weird relationship to have.

- Yeah, it feels like too much responsibility.

But I am making work for myself and because it's like compulsive but also to connect with other people, hopefully.

And so when I make that connection that's like, I did it, yay.

But it is scary because maybe it can feel a little parasocial, which isn't necessarily bad, I have a parasocial relationship with any podcast I listen to.

I'm like, "There's my best friend in my ear, I know all about them."

Like, no you don't.

So yeah, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

But then I worry about then if I let them down by making something they don't like, they'll be extra upset.

But I can't control that, I think.

- I have that disease where I am like, oh, those are my children reading this thing I wrote.

I love them so much, I want them to keep loving me.

Am I giving them something they want?

And that's a real sick way to be if you're like, like I think a lot of people get scared of people like wanting too much from them.

And I sometimes get scared about how much I'm like, "I hope they really like this."

- I hope they like it.

But you can't make stuff to please, - It's true.

- Such a broad audience.

- Because yeah, some people will hate things I make in the future and they would've been like so on board until then, and then they're like, "I'm out."

But I have to just be like, "That's not my responsibility, I can't keep everyone loving me."

And there's an open door policy, you can subscribe, you can unsubscribe, you can come and you can go and it's fine, it's okay.

I'm gonna be okay, you'll be okay, you'll find other stuff you love.

Maybe you'll hate my next book and then you'll love my next show, I don't know.

It's gotta be, it has to be okay.

- Yeah, a friend of mine sent me like a screenshot of someone on Threads, which I'm not on who called my work 'grating.'

- [Lisa] Wait, a friend sent it to you?

- Yeah, everyone I know is a piece of shit, wanting to keep me humble I guess.

And it was funny 'cause I was like, okay, I get it, I get it.

- [Lisa] I find myself grating, I get it, yeah.

- I'm very annoying to me.

But then it's like I feel better 'cause there are other people who are like, marry me, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, more of that please.

I can take the gratings if I get like, Hey, I love you from someone else.

- We can't be everyone's flavor all the time.

- I know, I know.

Some of us have to be salty.

- Oh yeah, okay, this next question is in the same vein.

Since you've always like been so open, do you feel like you owe it to your audience to continue being transparent?

- No, I don't think so.

I think whatever I've given them is what I've given them.

And then I could stop entirely and never make art again or whatever.

It really like, yeah, I don't think I owe anything.

- I always feel like, like someone will figure out that like I'm withholding and they'll be like, "You used to tell us.

You used to tell us this, but you haven't told us."

I had to, when I married my wife, she has two kids.

And I was like, "Oh, I'm never gonna write about the kids."

First of all, they're boring.

No one wants to hear about like what kids are doing, you don't care.

But then there was a part of me that was like, oh, this is a big part of my life that I can't talk about because I want to protect these people.

And it did feel weird at first to like write around these two.

Like, I mean, they're adults now, they're like 18 and 20, which is crazy, but when they were like five and seven, it was like, oh no, I can't, I don't want them to grow up and be like, "Hey, you fucked up my life by writing about me in your stupid blog," or whatever.

But I did feel like, do people, like, do people reading this feel like we're less connected because they don't get to know about that stuff?

- Yeah, I mean I think it's- - But you have a, it sounds like you have a healthy approach to that.

- Well, it would be hard if I had a kid, I think.

Because like any guy I date or have a crush on, I'm like, well free rein, I'm gonna draw you as a bunny.

- Yeah, yes.

- Sorry.

Which I, yeah, sorry.

- [Samantha] Don't apologize to them.

- It's not always flattering, but they're adults.

But like kids, yeah, it's not their decision, so I would feel really mixed about that 'cause if I had kids I would wanna write about them and draw them.

And I write about my niece in my book and I draw her and my family's cool with it, luckily.

But like, yeah, I don't know, that's tough.

And I have, I was gonna ask you like, are there things where you're just like, "I'm never gonna write about this?"

And I guess you answered that question, but like, I have stuff where I'm like, do I wanna write about this?

Or do I need at least one secret?

- You know what's funny?

So the younger kid is turning 18 in a couple months.

And I said to her yesterday, I was like, "So can I, I have a book coming out next year maybe, can I write about you in it?"

And she was like, "Yeah, of course."

And the older one said yes too.

So I'm gonna like break my rule and write about those kids and then we'll see if they hate me.

- I'm excited.

- Afterward.

But there are some things that I, I know it doesn't seem like it, but there are some things that I do keep.

Any feeling that I haven't, like, that I'm not on the other side of, or that feels like too painful to me because like my rule of thumb, whenever anyone asks me about like doing personal writing or personal work is like, can you handle a person you don't know screaming about it into your face in public?

Because that's what people do.

Like people will be like, "Hey, I read about that time you took a shit on the floor and everyone laughed."

Like, you have to be ready for that.

And if you can't handle that, don't put it in.

- [Lisa] That's tough.

- And I'm pretty good about doing that.

- That's tough.

There's definitely stuff in this book where I like didn't wait until I was fully healed or whatever to write about it, 'cause I'm like, well me writing about it from a place of being in the eye of the storm is actually interesting, and I think that mess is coming across.

And I just hope that most of the people who read it, not that many people are gonna read it, who reads comic books, you know?

But like- - Everyone in this room.

- I see.

But like, I hope that they understand that, I think most people will.

And then there's stuff that I'm just like, well if I write about this, will people then know that I'm gross and that I'm a gross person and will they judge me?

But then I read something like Melissa Broder will write about having like a vomiting fetish.

And I'm like, wow.

- I love her work, if you guys don't read her- - So much, she's one of my inspirations, 'cause I'm just like, she is fearless.

- Yeah, she'll say anything.

- Anything.

- And that comes from two people who say almost anything, like she really goes for it.

- She really goes there.

And I met her and I was like, oh my God, she's like, her writing is so wild.

And then I met her and she's this like beautiful, normal lady.

I'm like, you have a vomiting fetish and you wrote about it?

You're my hero.

I clearly do not have a vomiting fetish.

- Is there a line, like do you have a line that you draw where you're like, never, never this?

- I think I like to go right up to the point of being uncomfortable and just push it a little every time, where I'm just like, I'm gonna put this out there.

I don't know how I feel about it.

And then people accept it and they aren't like, you terrible, you're disgusting.

And it's like, it makes me a little braver every time.

- Yeah.

I always find that like the grossest worst things I write are the things that people are like, I relate to that.

And then I'm like, well then I'm glad I put it in a book for people to read.

- Yeah.

- Even if it's only for you.

Even if you're the only person who's not horrified by that, at least, at least you read it.

- That's the stuff I like to read.

I like that 'cause I'm like, oh, how interesting.

- Yeah.

- I love that.

- Me too.

Okay, we're gonna do some would you rathers.

- Lightning round.

- Yeah 'cause our end soon light is on.

Would you rather have hair for teeth or teeth for hair?

Oh, somebody's really upset.

Yeah.

- I don't like this.

I'm gonna say if I have teeth for hair, I also still have teeth for teeth?

So it's just teeth teeth?

- Yeah, two sets of teeth, hair hair or teeth teeth.

- I'm gonna do teeth teeth because I wanna keep being able to eat.

And hair, I'd only be able to eat like krill, it'd be like... (Samantha laughs) Would you - It's not enough food.

I don't know how whales live.

- Would you rather have a vagina on your forehead or a line of penises down your back like a stegosaurus?

(audience laughs) - Vagina forehead, but I might change my mind later.

(Samantha laughs) - Yeah, let's do some work.

- You're a maniac with these.

- Let's do some gross ones.

Would you rather pee a little every time you laugh or fly a little every time you fart?

(Lisa and audience laughs) This is like really the thing I'm good at is writing like shit this.

- I love, you're so talented.

- No.

(laughs) - This is why you're my friend.

I'm gonna go pee every time I laugh.

Just 'cause who hasn't done that?

- What?

No, at this age?

Come on.

- Come on.

And I don't want people to know that I fart, ever.

- Okay, here's one that's gonna gross you out.

Would you rather mama bird your least favorite food into a stranger's mouth or have a stranger baby bird your favorite food into yours?

- Oh my God.

I'm gonna mama bird oysters into a stranger's mouth because then I'm in control.

- Oyster, that's rough.

- Yeah, oysters, I don't like them, I've tried them so many times 'cause I just wanna like them 'cause people who like them seem to be having such a good time.

- People who like them love them.

- They're having such a good time, they're like, "Let's get more oysters."

I'm like, ugh.

But I just, I can't.

- Would you rather be a loud anti-vaxxer or a loud Jehovah's witness?

- Oh my God.

Jehovah's Witness 'cause then I'm not like literally killing children with my beliefs.

Not literally, it's not as directly causing deaths.

- Yeah, that's good.

Let's do some more disgusting ones.

Would you rather eat with your butt or poop from your mouth?

- So if I eat with my butt, I'm eating with my butt and my mouth?

- No, just your butt.

- No, what am I doing with my mouth?

Nothing, just talking?

Where's the poop coming out of?

- Also out of your butt.

- No.

- I'll take that one.

(Lisa and Samantha laugh) - Would you rather have fingers for legs or legs for fingers?

- Fingers for legs.

- I love that you're thinking about this like this is real.

- Fingers.

Are they, they're two giant fingers?

I think.

- Whatever you want.

- I think fingers for legs, 'cause like horses are kind of like that.

They like walk on their toes.

They have like- - It always comes back to a god damn horse.

Oh wait, I wrote some horse ones.

- Didn't you have a horsey gate FML?

- Yes, okay.

- I mean FMK.

- Fuck, marry, kill, trot, canter, gallop.

- I got a preview of this question and then I immediately had an answer, which is that I'm gonna fuck gallop because it's really, really fun, but it knocks the wind out of you so you don't want to keep doing it forever.

And then fuck trot because it just bangs up your shit.

- Whoa, that was two fucks.

- Oh no, no, you're right, kill trot.

- Okay.

- Kill trot 'cause it bangs up your shit, it's so uncomfortable sometimes.

And then marry walk 'cause you can do it forever.

(Samantha laughs) - Okay, fuck, marry, kill, influenza, measles, COVID-19.

- Oh my god.

- That one's kind of bleak, I'm sorry.

- It's so bleak.

I'm gonna marry influenza and fuck measles and kill COVID.

- Okay, oh, that's good.

- Maybe.

- Okay, another fuck, marry, kill.

Ice Cube, Ice-T, Vanilla Ice.

- Marry iced tea, I drink it a lot.

- [Samantha] No, no, no, the rapper.

- Oh, I was thinking beverages.

Oh my god, I'm so uncool.

- [Samantha] No, no, no, it's my fault.

- I was like.

- Fuck, marry, kill, these rappers.

Ice Cube, Ice-T and Vanilla Ice.

- Kill Vanilla Ice.

Marry Ice-T, fuck Ice Cube.

- What's the problem?

(Samantha laughs) - No explanation.

- Fuck, marry, kill, doctor, dentist, veterinarian.

Your personal doctor, dentist or your veterinarian?

- I don't have a personal veterinarian.

- Well, whoever you take the dog to.

- Marry a doctor just 'cause I'm a hypochondriac and it'd just be nice to like have- - Oh, that's my dream.

- Right?

Just have someone to always... - I have some friends who are doctors and like I've done the like, "Hey, could you?"

And they never, they're like, "No, go see a person who can look at you."

- Yeah.

- And I'm like, "Why are we friends?"

- Why are we friends?

Come on, be a good doctor friend.

- I'm trying to send you a picture of this rash.

- And then fuck dentist.

- And kill veterinarian.

- Kill veterinarian 'cause they're always like, "Your dog needs this and this and this and this and this," and they worry me, and then she's fine, she's fine.

Don't make me get all those tests, come on.

- Don't make me get, she needs them.

- No.

She's always healthy.

- Okay.

All right, okay, wait.

So in our talking about this before, you talked about Horniness as creative inspiration.

And I lately have been reading, all I read now is smut.

- Yeah.

- Gay male sports smut.

- What sport are you talking about?

- I'm reading a soccer one right now.

Oh my God you guys.

- That's fun.

- It's called "Sweat."

It's so good and disgusting.

And then that was my gateway to monster smut.

Anyone who's seen me in the last like month has heard me talk about this book, "Morning Glory Milking Farm," which is about a lady who gets a job milking Minotaurs and she falls in love with one.

It's really romantic, it's a beautiful story actually about love.

(Samantha laughs) But so reading all this stuff, I'm like, "Man, should I write this kind of thing?"

- Yes, yes.

- Okay, I will, but would you ever?

- Oh I've thought about it and I'm like, "Could I write it under like a pseudonym or something?"

Like, I don't know if I'd wanna write smut as me 'cause I feel like it'd be too like reveal, like it's just... - Really?

- Yeah.

- Too personal.

- I'd put my name all over, I'd put my face on.

(audience laughs) And on that note, the red light just went off.

Our time is done.

Everybody go to the lobby where you can meet us and talk to us.

- Thank you everyone, thank you so much.

- Thank you for coming to this.

- Thanks, Sam.

- Thank you, Lisa, for being the absolute best.

(audience applauds) (background chatter)