t music) - [Announcer] This is a Milwaukee PBS Listen MKE Special Presentation.

- Hi and welcome to the latest edition of Listen MKE Live.

A project of the Ideas Lab at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel 89.7 WUWM, Milwaukee's NPR, the Milwaukee Public Library and Milwaukee PBS.

I'm Daphne Chen, Investigations Reporter for the Journal Sentinel.

And I will be joined today by columnists and Ideas Lab reporter James Causey.

Today's conversation is going to focus on a topic that we don't talk about enough, the history of both tensions and solidarity between the black and Asian communities.

But we are going to talk about it today with guests Shary Tran, executive board member of the AAPI Coalition of Wisconsin and co-founder of ElevAsian.

Sherwin Hughes host at 101.7 FM, The Truth and a long time Milwaukeean who has spoken about the subject on-air.

And later in the show, we will also be joined by a couple that's found love across this divide who... We'll talk about some of their personal experiences being in an interracial relationship.

Remember, you can join this conversation by submitting your questions on our Facebook page.

We will try to get to as many of your questions as possible.

And now let me turn it over to my co-host James Causey.

- Hey, thanks for joining us.

This should be a very deep conversation and I'm happy that we can have have some great guests on to talk about this.

I'm gonna start off with Sherwin Hughes because this is a topic that's been discussed a lot and it has deep rooted history behind it.

So Sherwin, can you set the stage of where we are today as far as race relations are between the Asian community and the black community?

- In a word, I would say that they are complicated.

And I also want to give respect to the diversity of that is the Asian communities but you have the Southeast Asian community but then you also have the Southern Asian community which be individuals who are from the country of India.

And what I have seen like this through my anecdotal evidence in my life experience is that anti-black racism crosses the Pacific ocean.

So if there are individuals from any Asian country they may know a few things about the United States.

I'm talking first-generation folks.

They may know some of these stereotypical negative images that permeate the media about African-Americans.

And so when they come to this country that is one thing that's very easy to understand that African-Americans are, we're less than, we're criminals you know, every negative stereotype that you can adhere to but also to come to America and understand this place is to know that African-Americans are ripe for economic exploitation.

And it's interesting because the Southeast Asian community quite honestly live amongst African-Americans, especially in the Milwaukee community, wherever we are, you know we have Southeast Asian neighbors or they own businesses and shops in our neighborhoods.

But as far as how the social relationships are between the two communities, I'm glad that we're having this conversation because I don't know if there's ever been an opportunity to bridge the divide other than the economic exploitation that I see every single day.

- And we're gonna talk a little bit about that but this history goes back to Frederick Douglas.

I know Frederick Douglas talked about this back in 1862, I believe.

So can you talk a little bit about the history?

So bring us up to date as to how we got here.

- So my understanding is especially in Southeast Asian communities, a lot of them came to the United States after the Vietnam War as they were allies with the United States and fighting the North Vietnamese.

And so a lot of folks got refugee status here in the United States.

And some of them lived in urban communities where a lot of African-Americans traditionally lived.

And business opportunities existed in those communities because African-Americans were not occupying spaces and storefronts.

So that provided some opportunity for some Southeast Asian folks to take some of the business experience and the education they may have gotten in their countries and then use it here.

But then when I look at when, whenever we have civil unrest and this goes back to what really got my attention in 1991 when Latasha Harlins was murdered by a Korean store owner in Los Angeles, and you had the LA riots in 1992, I mean I was 16 Latasha Harlins was 15.

And the store owner accused her of shoplifting a $2 bottle of orange juice in which Latasha had the money for the orange juice in her hand.

And then Latasha was shot in the back of the head.

And then the woman who killed her, the Korean store owner got basically time served nine months of probation, and she had to pay the funeral expenses.

And a lot of folks say that the riots in LA in 1992 was not because of the police officers that were acquitted for beating Rodney King is because how that particular shop owner how so many other business owners in the black community treat African-Americans.

And so I don't know if we have ever healed the wounds that have existed since then, but I do know that we still occupied the same geographic space.

And then of course, when we had the most recent shooting in Atlanta, then we want our communities to come together.

Because if there's one thing the black community is good for, we will March with you.

We will protest with you for racial equality and racial justice.

But the part that confused me was we have always as black people struggle with racial equality.

And every other minority group that comes to this country they attempt to distance themselves from us until white supremacy strikes them too.

Now we're all friends and we all wanna collaborate.

- It's interesting that you brought that, brought that up because if you want to talk about recent incidences, there's a whole incident with George Floyd as well with the with the Asian officer who didn't offer any kind of assistance when the officer had his knee George Floyd's back.

I'm gonna turn it over to Shary Tran now and Shary with what convinces so far, how do you view relations between both communities right now?

- You know, it's interesting just the perspectives that are shared and there's a lot of, like you said a lot of history behind just where we are today.

But I think from my perspective, I see that this new generation of Asian-Americans is really bringing a very different approach to, you know racial relations between the communities.

You know, I think, you know, as Sherwin said there's a generation that came right after the Vietnam War ended a lot of refugees.

And even a lot of like the Hmong Refugees that came to the United States as well.

And knowing that we have a shared experience in terms of you know, living in the same communities, experiencing the same levels of struggle and poverty and, you know, lack of resources.

There's so much shared experience that sometimes doesn't get, I guess, the same kind of attention that we really need to start looking at those commonalities more so than the differences.

I think right now there's more attention to how we can come together, how we can support one another and not just because, you know it's immediate, a need just because of Atlanta.

There's been a lot of, you know Asians for Black Lives events and movements happening.

A lot of trying to change the perceptions of older generations, the new generation and the younger generations of AAPI Americans in the United States are really trying to, you know bridge that gap and making those efforts to create that conversation.

Those hard conversations that are multi-generational kind of pass down, kind of, that kind of learned racism that gets passed on from generation to generation and trying to be the ones to break that cycle.

I think that's something that something that we should be paying more attention to and really recognizing as well.

And I think when I really appreciate Sherwin when the recognition of the diversity within the Asian diaspora as well, because, you know as you know, like, especially in South Asian, unlike Indian countries, for example, you know colorism is still an issue.

And that kind of comes with, you know that experience in the United States and adds to some of that, you know, anti-blackness that occurs.

And we recognize that it is prevalent in our Asian communities.

And we are trying to address that.

I think that's something that we need to first have these conversations.

I'm glad you're hosting this kind of conversation, James because this is like you said a topic that hasn't been talked about as much.

And if it is talked about, it's always, you know not necessarily what's going right, but what's been going wrong?

So I think this is a good opportunity to really look at those opportunities to build.

- I'm kind of wondering what you guys think about the role that media plays here.

So whether it's film or news media or social media, you know, what's kind of the imagery that or the stereotypes that are being portrayed and how maybe how's that changed?

If you feel like it's changed.

So maybe Shary, I'll send it back to you for this one and then Sherwin.

- Sure so that's a great question or great topic as well 'cause I think Sherwin, you touched on this as well about just what do people see when they think about you know, the experience in the United States?

And a lot of that is kind of fed to, you know, countries overseas that they only see what the media shares whether it's, you know, Hollywood's depiction which tend to be very stereotypical and very narrow, depictions of all different races.

You may see the stereotypes against Asians in the same way.

So there's a perspective that's very stereotypical around what the Asian experience is, what the black experience is and they're typically not necessarily the truth.

They're very, you know, limited.

And it creates this perpetuating stereotype that we tend to carry with us.

And if that's the only experience we have with diversity or the only experience we have about anyone from a different background that really puts us at a disadvantage 'cause, you know, it's a very skewed perception.

So I think the media has a very strong responsibility when the, you know, the COVID outbreak started to come out we really called upon the media to stop posting pictures of you know, Asians every time you talk about the COVID-19 pandemic because that was helping to exacerbate the connection or the stereotypes against Asian-Americans.

And we just kind of see how that's kind of continued to compound and create more of the environment that we're seeing today.

So there's definitely a lot of power in the images we share the narratives that we paint around different ethnicities and races and groups.

- Yeah, I think that's really interesting Shary, that actually reminds me of just right now, there's a lot of media out there about Asian and Asian-Americans that is the crazy rich Asians and model minority stereotype, that kind of a erases a lot of the diversity of class, of gender, of all these other forms of identity that make Asian America, not a monolith.

Sherwin what do you think about the role that media plays?

- I think the media plays a huge role, I think it has played a role in creating the stereotypical narratives around not just Asian folk, but black folk as well even in my formative years, growing up you would see these terribly negative and stereotypical images of Asians.

And you know, even in our cartoons that we'd watch on Saturday morning and you would see some of these horrible images that get ingrained in people and you just think that it's normal.

And the way that Donald Trump was able to essentially pin the pandemic on one particular group of people means that those stereotypes are able to stick even after many generations of wonderful Americans participating in this country and, you know, being just as American as anybody else.

It seems that just a couple of comments can revert everybody back to how stereotypes were, you know, pre-World war two or during world war II, Japanese interment camps.

And I think the media plays a role in maintaining some of those images, but then at the same time I think the media can also be instrumental in communicating the very complicated nature that exists amongst communities, but then also between so intra and inter community African-American Asian, South Asian et cetera.

So yeah, the media can and take their fair share of blame.

And just about all of our, you know, negative things that we see.

- I wanna continue along that what were saying Sherwin, when you were talking about the media.

The same media helped to create this falsehood to the that has started in, it's grown that it indicates that Asians, Asian Americans work harder.

They are, you know, why can't blacks get and achieve the same things they have?

Why can't blacks own stores in their own communities?

And Asian Americans can own stores in these communities.

Can you talk a little bit about that and how that creates the friction and the communities that a lot of these businesses are located in?

- Yeah, it is of all of the issues.

I think this is the toughest one to overcome because you have this stereotype that of course is not doesn't come from either of our community, but come from white supremacy itself.

It is the model minority.

Why don't you work hard, get an education like so many of these other minorities that have come to America.

But a lot of those other groups that have come to America that are able to survive and thrive have never dealt with centuries of anti-black white supremacist racism.

So they'll come to America with a culture, with a language, with a profound sense of who they are and they can essentially transport their culture that goes back centuries that was intact to America and still maintain a lot of that cultural resemblance here in America.

While African-Americans have had to deal with centuries upon centuries of oppression and white supremacy.

So, no, we can't be like the model minority because we didn't have the opportunity to get an education to develop business skills or even to get a college degree in some other country and then bring all of those skills and sometimes money and wealth to the United States.

So it's a lot easier when someone is able to cultivate and grow and solidify their culture somewhere else, put it in a suitcase and then bring it to America where African-Americans had to literally fight for every single opportunity that we get.

So comparing us to the 'model minority' is another stereotypical and racist trope.

- Yeah, Shary can you expand on that?

- My experience as well, you know, as a refugee family coming to United States, we didn't have anything, but the clothes on our backs when we left the country and coming here.

So, you know, really this perception around the model minority myth, it's absolutely you know what it says, it's a myth because it's really taking the responsibility for your success and pinning it on the individual and taking all responsibility away from the systems that exist that perpetuate the racism and the disadvantage.

So it's not blaming systems, it's blaming individuals, which isn't fair right?

So it's kind of pointing the finger at like, well "why can't you be as successful as this person?"

Not, not saying that, you know, you're not getting the opportunity 'cause the system doesn't allow you to.

So I think that's the big disconnect around the mind model minority myth and why it's been perpetuated as, Sherwin said by white supremacy.

It's been designed to separate, to divide, to drive a wedge, to, you know, to pit minorities against one another which has been largely successful, you know, to be honest over time.

Because we have been kind of, you know it's been like what you call it?

Kind of like a smoking mirrors kind of thing like, "Oh, don't pay attention to this racist system, it's the people, that's the problem."

And that's not really the truth.

I think, you know, Chinese Americans have had faced racism for centuries as well, dating back to like the 1800s when they were brought over and used as very menial labor, they were treated as less than Americans were even considered to be you know, citizens.

They were seen as less than, a lot of stereotypes and even, you know, showing them as evil inherently evil and, you know, taking jobs and just really creating this narrative of Asians as dangerous to America and really building upon that over the years.

So, you know, they've been victims of oppression as well for centuries.

And, you know, the experience of, you know, losing their identity hasn't been as you know prevalent as maybe within the, you know, the black community, because they are forced to really create their own communities where they could you know, create their own businesses.

Like that's where Chinatown's came from, right?

They weren't able to open businesses amongst, you know the general population.

They had to kind of create their own.

And that's where those enclaves of Asian communities kind of started because they weren't allowed to do it anywhere else.

So there's definitely been, you know, this myth but I think the big, you know, the big takeaway about the model minority myth is like you said, Sherwin neither one of our community started this but we're both victims of it.

Because it pits us against each other and kind of takes the attention away from the real oppressors in this situation.

- So I think this is a good time to show when we work together as one community.

So a lot of people don't realize this, but the Asian, Asian American that term was coined in 1968 by UC Berkeley students who were inspired by the black power movement.

And at this time Asian-American students rallied alongside black student organizations and other ethnic student groups to form the Third World Liberation Front as San Francisco State, UC Berkeley in the late 1960s.

And so they participated in marches, equal opportunity drives, and they forced forthcoming ethnic studies programs.

Can you guys pinpoint other ways that we have worked together as one community and found true success and help each other out?

- I think the geographic integration because people of color have traditionally lived in particular areas where people and the white folks had lived in other areas.

So there's always been proximity.

And I grew up in Brown Deer in the 1980s and 1990s.

And every year that I was in school, including kindergarten I went to school with a variety of Asian folks whether it was South Asia or Southeast Asia.

So there's always been that proximity.

And the way I looked at it as a kid is that we were all kids going to the same school.

We all played sports.

We all collaborated together, et cetera, et cetera.

So there always was, you know, the friendly platonic kind of friendships because of the proximity between our community.

Right now, I live in the middle of the African-American community.

And I've got Hmong neighbors who are some of the most wonderful people that I've ever met in my entire life.

Thank you there, we can still face the same kinds of racism and discrimination, but I don't know if we see it as equal.

And what pains me is whenever there is civil unrest and there always is civil unrest, whether it's here or somewhere else, some of the first businesses that are vandalized and looted are Asian business, but at the same time, the owners of those businesses our friends and our neighbors and people that we went to school with.

I think that there's still something either unresolved or unspoken about the relationship and maybe it's, you know, 'cause sometimes economics can put people against one, another one culture versus another culture, one community versus another community.

But I've always been troubled by the vandalism and destruction of Asian stores almost first, even though the issue that we had is with white supremacy is with the white police officer.

That's where our anger is that we've vandalized those businesses, it seems intentionally and very much on purpose.

- And real quick.

So that's a very interesting point.

What sparked that anger, where you feel like you have to go in and destroy this business that you probably did that you shop at during the moments of unrest?

What sparks you to go into a Jet Beauty, which was vandalized on the Sherman Burke unrest and go in there and vandalize that place, steal here, burn the building up and all this kind of stuff.

What sparks that?

I think that's what a lot of people don't understand.

- African-American women will tell you and I've even witnessed it firsthand when they go into nail shops or they go into beauty shops to buy their products.

They don't often get the best customer service or there's this, you know, feeling this subjective feeling that they're speaking negatively about African-Americans because we obviously don't know the language and there's always been this tension between the business owners and their African-American clients I think that's number one.

Number two is I have never seen, granted I don't go into nail shops hardly ever.

And I certainly don't buy wigs or hair.

(laughing) There's never African-American employees right?

But these businesses are located right in the middle of the black community.

And we're very mindful of that.

If you're gonna have and operate business in our community, which we spend our money at let's be very clear about that.

But if we don't see black employees then that kind of brings up an interesting dynamic as well.

- Sherwin, when you had mentioned economics earlier and so a statistic we wanted to get your thoughts on was in 2013, 39% of black children were living in poverty compared to 10% of Asian children.

That same year young Asian adults with bachelor's degrees or higher made $59,000 per year compared to about $20,500 earned by their black counterparts.

So maybe we can go to you first and then Shary but what comes to mind when you think about some of these economic disparities?

- So education is a very interesting one because it seems just me as an outsider looking in that taking advantage of the educational opportunities seems to be more culturally ingrained in Asian communities where there is Southeast Asian or Southern Asian it is just the expectation of first-generation Asian parents.

Or the first-generation children rather that education is just like you don't have a choice you're going to do well in school.

You're going to you know be all that you can be because of the opportunities that exist in America that may not exist in the home.

But when it comes to African-Americans one of the places in which we are discriminated against the most is in education.

Whether it's higher education whether it's lackluster public schools et cetera, et cetera.

And so I think it's less culturally ingrained.

Like, I don't know what the standards and I shouldn't be stereotyping my own people but I know that I've noticed the difference that at home Asian children just have this high level and it's unfairly high I think that their expectations of academic success is so incredibly high that they almost feel like they don't have a choice where with black children because we are bombarded with so many issues and problems and disparities all over the place that education and educational attainment is kind of like second or third tier and the overall struggle for our fight for fairness and equality.

- Shary, how about you?

What's coming to mind?

- You know, one thing I would challenge is the statistics that you're sharing Daphne.

I would ask, you know were you able to find, you know, call-outs or distinctions in that Asian data for Southeast Asian students or Hmong students, or, you know, the fact that all I'm sure you probably didn't have an easy time finding a specific data because all data is aggregated under one big umbrella of Asian which is a big challenge for our community.

Because if you were able to just aggregate that data, you would see that Southeast Asian students have the highest high school dropout rate in the country.

And, you know, when you couple that with these stereotypical expectations of high performance that creates serious, you know, self-esteem issues, mental health issues that Southeast Asian students now think, "Okay, is there something wrong with me?"

"If I'm not achieving and everyone expects me to."

Another issue that comes out of that is, you know not just the skewed perception, "Hey all Asians are successful," because that's not necessarily true when you break out the data.

It could be, you know, highly skewed based on one, you know Asian sub category over others.

But then also people start to not assume that you need any assistance and don't provide that assistance.

There's a lot of students that aren't getting the resources they probably need to be more successful in school because they're perceived to not need it.

And the data, the only data that exists helps support that hypothesis right?

Because it kind of largely ignores the uniqueness between the different groups in the Asian diaspora.

So I think that's a challenge as well.

- What I was gonna say is Sherwin you had a great experience, because you went to I believe Brown Deer high school.

Say I went to John Marshall high school and I was before that, I went to Jackie Robinson middle school, and Samuel Clemens.

And honestly, I didn't have any real contact with anyone from the Asian American community until I started working at the paper.

And when I started working with one of my colleagues Mabel Wong, before then I really didn't have many connections other than, you know going to a store or something like that they may have owned.

My connections.

And I think a lot of people experienced this in the city, our connections with different communities can sometimes be skewed or a very, it's almost like a business transaction.

You know, my only way of seeing you and spending time with you is during a business transaction.

And I think we have to overcome that some kind of way and get to the point where we could like see each other in different aspects.

- [Announcer] Due to time constraints.

The conversation will continue with the couple in Listen Milwaukee, across the divide web exclusive on the Milwaukee PBS website.

Listen MKE is a partnership between the Ideas Lab of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel 89.7 WUWM, Milwaukee's NPR, the Milwaukee Public Library and Milwaukee Public Television.

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