- [Announcer] This program is a special presentation of TPTs "Racism Unveiled Project," and is made possible by support from the Otto Bremer Trust and HealthPartners.

- Hello everyone, my name's Sanni Brown-Adefope, and I'm the host for TPT's "Racism Unveiled Initiative."

In the next half hour, we'll show you a new documentary that addresses structural racism through the stories of four African-American elders.

Each of these Minnesotans talk about their struggles with the trauma of discrimination and offer lessons on ways to make things better.

But before we get to that, we're going to talk with the man who produced the documentary, J.D.

Steele.

- Hi Sanni.

- J.D., thanks for joining us.

- It's good to be here with you.

- Okay, so let's get to the first question.

What motivated you to do this documentary?

- Well, you know, honestly, Sanni, I was called by a friend of mine, a dear friend of mine, her name is Penny Winton, and it was after the George Floyd murder, and she said to me, "You should do, you should do a documentary on racism."

And my first feeling and response was, "Well I have never done a film," and I have friends who are really wonderful filmmakers and I was gonna refer them to her.

But after I went to bed that night I woke up that morning, next morning, with an epiphany, and I thought, I think I can make this work.

And I had this idea that I wanted to interview four octogenarians, elders in our community in their 80s, including my mother, because they've lived it, and they've done it.

So it was really a very exciting, and moving, and compelling experience for me.

- I like to ask the questions that people are afraid to ask.

What is an octogenarian?

- An octogenarian is someone in their eighties.

- Okay, okay.

- And.

- So the real OG.

(laughing) - The real OG's.

- What was the process like to find people, interview them, and put their voices together for this?

- Well, I wanted to interview Elder Mahmoud El Kati, who is just steeped in wisdom and knowledge of Black history and he's been a treasure for our community for many decades, as well as Dr. Josie Johnson.

These people are just incredible and I respect and admire them dearly.

And also my dear friend, Bill English, who helped start Sabathani Community Center.

they were just fantastic to, to interview.

And of course my mother, I heard stories from her that I had never heard before.

So interviewing my mother was without question one of the most moving experiences of my life.

- Were those the top ones, or did you have like a long list of people and you had to narrow it down?

- You know, actually, I had a short list.

- Okay.

- They were on my list, and fortunately for me, and fortunately for this documentary, they all said, "Yes," and then we just had to navigate the COVID interviews and how to make that happen and their families were extremely supportive in that.

- In the documentary we hear about racist events that still affect the interviewees to this day.

How common is it to hear stories that are like the stories that you featured in this documentary?

- Well, it's very common.

I mean, they all, we all have our stories, we all have our stories.

I have my stories from growing up as a kid in Indiana and their stories are steeped in history.

And when you hear their stories you understand and recognize that the more things change the more they've stayed the same.

- What surprised you the most while making this piece, hearing all of these stories, even though you just said, you know, no matter how things change they still remain the same, so were there any surprises for you?

- Well, you know, the biggest surprise for me was learning how to edit five hours of interview down to 18 minutes, that was (laughing) a big surprise because I didn't realize how much detail goes into film editing.

So I was able to hook up with my co-producer, Karl Demer, who with his Atomic K Productions, he's a brilliant Emmy Award-winning videographer and editor.

And just going through that process was fantastic with him because I learned an awful lot from him.

And then their stories have similar storylines to them that I was able to tie together.

- Well, thank you, J.D.

Let's sit back and now watch the documentary.

- Thank you, Sanni.

(light piano music) - [J.D.]

Institutional racism, also known as systemic racism, is a form of racism that is embedded as normal practice within society, or an organization.

It can lead to such issues as discrimination in criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, political power, and education, among other issues.

The testimonials from these four elite octogenarians will convey their experiences with systemic racism from their past, to their present.

If you'll open your heart and listen, "Listen!

Please!"

♪ If you'll open your heart, listen please ♪ - I'm Mahmoud El Kati.

I was born, like everybody else, came out of the womb in Savannah, Georgia, in 1933 of October.

- My name is Josie Robinson Johnson.

I will be 90 years old, October 7, 2020.

I was born October 7, 1930 in Houston, Texas.

- My name is William Irving English, but I prefer Bill.

Only my mother was allowed to call me William and she only called me that when she was angry, otherwise my nickname was Sonny, S-O-N, I was the firstborn of 12 kids.

- My name is Sally E. Steele-Birdsong and I have six children.

I won't tell my age 'cause I hope I don't look it, hey, but anyway, I was born in McComb, Mississippi and I left there at the age of 14 which was a good place to be from.

I have 17 grandchildren and I have 30 great-grandchildren.

So you can imagine how grateful I am and how proud I am.

- Systemic racism is inbred in the way this United States came into existence.

Now the framers of this Constitution were idealist, and they wrote a beautiful document, the most profound document since the Bible.

It started that all men are created equal.

Now you can't start off with that line and justify the slavery that occurred after that.

Slavery was an economic thing.

They couldn't enslave the Indians 'cause the Indians knew the territory and they fought.

So the next best thing was to go to Africa and get slaves, so did the British and the, those who were colonizing the United States.

And then find it interesting that the first man to die, in their war for freedom, was a Black man, Crispus Attucks.

- Systemic racism is etched in the fabric of American life.

It is behavior and treatment in every possible interaction of human beings.

It's a system that continues to redefine who Black people are, and in the laws, policies, behavior, of American society.

- Systemic racism still exists in this country today.

How does it exist ?

Voter oppression, you wanna keep us from voting, and finally we got to vote.

We begin to change the face of America.

- Thank God for those wonderful women, for Black Lives Matter, that's the genie they got outta the bottle, you did it, right.

These are not riots, these are not riots in the street, they're no more riots than the rebellions of Black people of, Denmark Vesey, of Nat Turner, of Cato who burned down New York in 1641, these are slaves in rebellion.

There are over 250 recorded slave rebellions.

What is happening in the streets of America is a natural product of historical struggle of Black people, the same struggles, another chapter in the struggle for Black people's freedom.

You dismiss that, you defame it and say it's rioting, it's not riot, we know what's going on.

People in think tanks, and there are 2200 of them in this country, know these are not riots.

These are legitimate revolts against the oppressive system that they've learned to call now, systemic racisms.

That's a nice name, but Black people named a long time ago.

In Paul Robeson's day it was called White power obstruction, that's what you called it, you know.

And the brother on the street would call it, the man.

That means not a man, it means a structure of America, the schools, the banks, all of the important cultural institution, that's, the man.

- Our first home that we wanted to build when a man came out and was talking to us about it and he told us, he said, "Now, you are gonna have to pay more, your interest rates gonna be more to build this house."

So it wasn't no way in the world, with one person working, and at that time we had four children that we could do that, you know.

We had a shorter mortgage, and everything, and he told us, you know, that White people got longer mortgages, less interest, and everything, than what we would get.

So, it didn't feel good to hear that.

- I was driving home, listening to some cool jazz, as I normally do, and it was a nice April day, and it was a little rain that night, so I had it on cruise at 62 miles an hour.

This cop pulls me over after I turn on Rockford Road.

Pulled me over to the side and say, "You were driving 70 miles an hour."

Okay, you're gonna give me a ticket, go ahead.

So I pulled over, he pulled all my stuff out, looked at my driver's license, went back, I didn't have no tickets.

So he came back and he said, "I need to see your car registration."

So, because it was a rental car, and I had mine.

So he said, "How long you lived in pa-rem-er-ton, and I say, "Why, it's on my address, how long I've lived there is none of your business."

He said, "Well, why are you driving a rental car?"

I lost it, I said, "Because I can afford it, (beep) my Lexus is in the shop."

He looked at me and he said, "You don't need to talk to me like that."

I said, "Profanity is not against the law, so if you wanna give me a ticket for cursing, go ahead, 'cause I sure cursed you."

And he wrote me the ticket, he give me the ticket anyway, and I drove off and my knees started trembling like a dog.

I realized I could've died right there, that was stupid on my part.

- Jovita used to live right here on Vincent and her alarm went off and this girl there she was keeping for her to go to school here, tripped the alarm and she forgot the password.

And so Jovita was in California so of course I was the closest one to Jovita so I was the first one the alarm company would call, so they called me.

So when I got down there, I saw, okay, she's in the house, she's trying to get the alarm off, okay, so I didn't even go in the house.

And Stephanie, the girl next door to Jovita, she was working in her front yard and I was standing there talking to her.

Well, in the meantime they had called the police, I saw them pass back in there, and then they went in the alley and came through between the house, and both of 'em pulled a gun on me and told me to put my hands up in the air.

Now, here I am 65 years old, and they telling me to put my hands up, and I'm talking to this White woman right here.

And I said to Stephanie, I said, "Stephanie, tell them who I am."

Do you think she told them?

Never said it.

She just said, "Oh, she don't look like a burglar.

He say, "You can't look at 'em and tell.

I felt like somebody had stripped me buck-naked out there.

I was so angry and I never put my hands up.

So when I got home I told my husband about it, he said, "Honey, they could've killed you."

I didn't care at the time, I really didn't, I didn't care, I just did not care anymore and it took me years to get beyond that.

And I don't trust policeman's today, no I don't, because of what I've been through.

I don't care how educated you are, I don't care how hard you work, it never, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.

Not to everybody, but some, everybody's not the same and I know that, but just talking about what I've experienced, you know?

And I pray constantly, I don't wanna ever hate anybody, because hatred will destroy you.

So I have to not dwell on those types of things, you know?

Yeah, but it doesn't say that it doesn't hurt ya, you know?

But no, I can't hate them, I have to continue to move forward, yeah.

- I can remember when I was in college and went home for the first summer and my mother and I went to a department store and I remember the sales girl coming up to us and saying, "What can I do for you girls?"

And I remember saying to her, "My mother is a woman, a grown woman, I may be a girl, but you need to know who you are talking to."

And I remember just being irate that she had the nerve to refer to my mother as a girl.

So it was that kind of self-assuredness that we grew up believing.

It never occurred to us that we needed to feel inferior because somehow our family was able to keep us above the fray of White supremacy.

I think it helped me appreciate my sense of value.

I did not have to feel that we needed to hate White people in order to feel good about who we were.

- You're up against an ideology.

I mentioned that the word, nigger, came from the mouth of a four-year-old child, her mother coached her to do that as we were walking down the street.

As time went on I learned that no White person comes out of the womb saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger," it's taught that as part of a cultural norm, any more than you know, King was right, you have to be taught to love in a certain way, you know, it's a certain way you have to be taught, so you have to be taught to hate and no child four years old, know what nigger is.

She was saying what her mother taught her, the cultural, (indistinct) of her racist heritage caused that.

Every Black person has things to say, that's why you gotta get to the bottom of it, you know, little incidents, what the boys call, a series of little meannesses, they come at you every day.

My grandmother and I were going into a little ole grocery store, there were always a few Whites, in all Black communities, as you know, with the store on the corner.

We go in there and it's known: what the humiliation that Black endured.

We walk in the store and the man has a parrot, and guess what the parrot says, "Nigger stealing, nigger stealing, nigger stealing, nigger stealing," I mean, who taught the parrot to say that?

- What is being said, and how do you translate it, and how do you correct it, and how do you help your children not accept what is being systematically taught and said on a regular basis, it's not easy, it's not easy, because it shows up in so many ways.

- We have to continue to be the good citizens we are.

We have to overcome systemic poverty by demanding investment in our communities, but White people have to solve racism, we can't solve that.

I'll dialogue about it, but they have to solve their own racism.

They have to accept our humanity, that we are human beings.

- I'm not greater than you, and you're not greater than I am.

You're no better than I am, but it's so much hatred being taught, and lies being told.

I'm supposed to love even my enemy and that's not easy.

Hating somebody, or trying to figure out how to get somebody, you know, you don't have that.

You have peace, and peace is one of the greatest things you can have.

Along with love, my god, you got it, you ain't got to worry about nothing here, yeah.

- The future of this world belongs to everyone and that future depends on to what extent, and by what means we liberate ourselves from a vocabulary which cannot now bear the weight of reality.

That's this moment, we all speak the vocabulary of White supremacy, White, Black, and everybody in-between.

You've gotta destroy that before anybody is free.

We're trying to speak to principalities and powers and ask you to stop the madness.

Stop the bleeding.

I can't, only White people can do this.

- Joining us again is J.D.

Steele, the producer of "Listen!

Please!"

Welcome back, J.D.

- Nice to be back, Sanni.

- All right, so let's get into these next questions.

Some interviewees said they could've died just for talking smart to the police.

And I was angry hearing about your mother being held at gunpoint.

How do we begin to address, like how do we even begin to address any of that?

- Well, you know, we still have some issues with bad policing in many of our cities, including Minneapolis.

And we have to reckon with these, with these things, I liked our mayors in both of our cities and they have quite a job to do.

So a lot of it has to be done through community activism, but as well as, you know, policing becoming more fair, and more fair.

- Mahmoud El Kati made comments about getting rid of terms like White supremacy, or like using terms like White supremacy.

What are your thoughts about that?

- Well, actually what he said was that we all use the terminology of White supremacy and, you know, what he means by that, there are various meanings to that, but really when you get down to it even the, N word, is used far too often in our own communities, in African-American communities.

So that word was passed down to us and we're still using it with each other.

And like he said, we need to stop that.

- How do you think we stop something like that, because, like you said, the, N word, is kinda common in modern, you know, day, so how do you, how would you address that?

How would you even begin to do that 'cause I even see the younger generation fighting with the older generation about that?

- Yeah, it's why I have debates with my son who lives in Atlanta and he uses it in some of his hip-hop music.

And we've had these debates many times, but then if someone White uses it against him then he's very bothered by it.

So we have to have these conversations amongst ourselves to try to get rid of the common usage of the word, and unfortunately hip-hop has helped to really promote it more than ever.

I used it when I was in high school and I stopped using the word decades ago because I matured into understanding of what it meant and I was affecting our communities.

- Let's talk about the interest rates that your mom mentioned and being charged more than White people.

How did you feel about that when you learned about that story?

- Well, I didn't know that story.

I had never heard that story, and I felt really, it hit a sensitive spot because, you know, one of the reasons why we have ghettos in our communities is because Black people were forced to live in certain areas and were not allowed to buy homes in other areas, so that's why you have Black people living in dense communities because we weren't allowed to purchase homes.

And then they made it so unaffordable for us, which is what she was expressing, it made it very challenging, so that was challenging to hear that story.

- What do you hope viewers feel when they watch this documentary?

- I'm hoping that it creates dialogue because now you're hearing the word systemic racism bandied about quite a bit these days.

And if we can just dialogue with each other, multicultural dialogue, which I oftentimes get to do with members of my MacPhail community, with members of my Mill City Choir, and my Capri Glee Choir.

We have to dialogue and find out how to, to get rid of it.

- Well, thank you J.D.

for coming in today and talking with us and thank you for making this documentary.

- Thanks, Sanni, it's a pleasure.

- Racism has persisted for hundreds of years and our work to expose how it still affects people will not stop here.

You can keep up with our work and see more stories like this by going to, RACISMUNVEILED.ORG.

This has been Sanni Brown-Adefope, for Twin Cities PBS.

Until next time thank you for joining us.

(intense deep music) - [Announcer] This program is a special presentation of TPTs "Racism Unveiled Project," and is made possible by support from the Otto Bremer Trust and HealthPartners.