- The crisis is real.

When we have one third of households in Rhode Island that spend more than a third of their income in housing, and 50% of those, spend more than 50%, we have a serious problem.

- I think there comes a scenario where people are saying, wait a minute.

You know, there's a chance that I might not have food for Thanksgiving, you need to pass something right now.

I don't care about healthcare going forward, about the affordable care, back about anything else, because the most urgent thing is food.

(bright music) - And welcome to this episode of "Lively."

I'm Jim Hummel.

I am joined this week by Boston Globe, columnist Dan McGowan and our political contributor, Dr.

Pablo Rodriguez.

Welcome to you both.

More than 140,000 Rhode Islanders are poised to lose food assistance benefits November 1st, as the government shut down has dragged on for more than a month.

Now, let me give the caveat, we're taping on a Thursday morning so things could change.

We're not sure by the time people watch this, but if it holds up, here's what's at stake.

Those 140,000 Rhode Islanders represent 14% of the state's population and at stake, $29 million a month, not coming into Rhode Island, nationally 42 million rely on SNAP benefits.

That's a supplemental nutrition assistance program.

Pablo, beyond this, there are structural issues going on, but the immediate problem is people potentially going hungry.

- There's no doubt about it.

And to have an advanced society having people going hungry when the money is there for it to be alleviated, the state obviously has a rainy day fund that could be used and they're not using, they're only using a $6 million contingency fund for SNAP.

And likewise, the federal government.

The federal government has what, 300 billion, you know, in funds that they could use as an emergency to cover this expense.

But they don't want to do that because according to President Trump, this is a Democrat program.

- Right.

- How could feeding hungry people be just a Democrat program?

- Yeah and by the way, a lot of Republicans on food stamps too, right?

- That's what I'm saying.

- You know, I think the other thing that's fascinating, and you just mentioned it, Pablo, is, you know, what I'm a little bit struck by is while the governor did hold a press conference this week and announced they were gonna have a state of emergency, and they're gonna put in a little, a couple of million dollars, I'm a little bit surprised that we haven't seen from across the board, our politicians kind of rallying together to say, yeah, we have to tap the rainy day fund, or we have to do whatever it takes to make sure that every person is fed.

Because right now the plan is, and again, you said taping on a Thursday, right?

Anything could happen in the next couple of days, but sure.

It sounds like we're going to take care of a lot of people that have children.

So, you know, young families kind of thing.

There's still 80 some odd thousand people on food stamps in Rhode Island that need that money.

We're heading into Thanksgiving.

And so I'm a little surprised by how, I think a little bit timid people are, and I wonder how much it is, it's almost like calling President Trump's bluff.

You think, sure, you're gonna get to the deadline and then President Trump is gonna almost come through at the last minute and sort of release money.

- And be the savior, right?

- And didn't come across as the savior.

- You know?

- And let's not forget, we already killed the school Breakfast and lunch program, that was feeding hungry children, that was providing vegetables and fruit for farmers selling into the fruit.

- That's right.

- That was cut in the first pass.

- Right.

- Of- - The big beautiful bill.

- Yeah, the big beautiful bill.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- You put that right outta your mind.

- I know, I know.

No, but it was Musk.

- The big bill.

- No, actually it was Musk, the one who cut that one.

- Oh, doge.

Okay, yeah.

- She was doge.

- You know, the thing I wonder too is we are locked in, we pay attention.

But you wonder how many people, not only in Rhode Island but nationwide are gonna get to the grocery store who are not paying attention to any of this.

They're going to work.

They have an EBT card, and if they don't solve this problem, and you think of potentially the violence that could go on.

- Yeah.

- You wonder what the grocery stores are now doing.

- Yeah.

- In preparation, right?

- Yeah, not only that, I mean, I think, 'cause I think there are gonna be a lot of people who are going to, potentially on Saturday morning want to go to the grocery store.

- [Jim] What do you mean by card doesn't work, right?

- And it doesn't work.

And you know, the dangerous part about this is, you could debate about who's to blame here.

Democrats are holding strong on healthcare and those negotiations in this shutdown.

But a lot of people, the first thing they're going to do is Google what's happening and whatever the first thing in their search feed is, whether it's "Fox News" or whatever it's gonna be either, they're gonna make that decision in that moment, this is the Democrat's fault, or this is the Republican's fault.

- You know, my liberal friends are going to kill me for saying this.

But, you know, we have to also understand that this program really needs a lot of reform.

- [Jim] Mm-hmm.

- I mean, we receive $29 million a month to distribute 12 million, you know, to people.

So it costs that much to distribute that money.

- And fact that 42, look, that's another discussion for another day.

But the fact that 42 million people are on food assistance in the greatest country in the world, think about that.

- Absolutely.

It is absolutely incredible.

And let's not forget that there's another shoe to drop in a couple of years.

The big beautiful bill is gonna cut the contribution by the federal government to the SNAP program for Rhode Island because we have an error rate of 12.6, 12.9%.

- Right.

- So we get penalized for that.

- You're penalize 15% more contribution the state is gonna have to do in a couple of years.

- Right.

And it means that you're gonna have to have more, you know, state leaders kind of step up, or to your point, reform the system to some degree.

And it is true.

You know, when I think about this, when I talk to people, sort of experts of this system, the argument, and I think it's a legitimate one, is it doesn't matter what the error rate is, because we have to make sure as many people are fed as possible.

I tend to personally agree with that.

But to Pablo's point, you gotta acknowledge some mistakes here and you gotta figure out ways to fix it and make it more efficient.

Because then you don't have the federal government sort of on your back all the time.

- But that's the macro view.

- That's right.

- The micro is people not being able to eat in the next month.

I will tell you.

I look back at the last couple of budget cycles, and I've had these conversations with House Speaker Joe Shekarchi, and I said, two years ago, they took Governor McKees budget and they added $250 million, a quarter of a million dollars, a billion dollars to the budget, last year was a hundred million.

I said, why don't you put that money in the rainy day fund?

Oh, well, we have funded the rainy day fund.

The rainy day fund is not what it should be in Rhode Island.

And you wonder if they had put an extra 50 million instead of putting it into programs that money would be available now.

- Yeah, you have, I mean, I think the stat is you have about 19 days of money to run the government in Rhode Island in the rainy day fund.

Now- - [Jim] Not much of a cushion.

- Not much of a cushion.

- Right?

- There's no scenario where you would ever need that.

- Right.

- So it's kind of a fictitious challenge.

But we should know other states, many, most states in this country are in a better place there.

And you don't need rainy day money until there's a rainy day.

And right now, this is as rainy a day as possible.

- Yeah, it's a hurricane.

I also wonder if we widen out about nationally Republicans, Democrats, I understand what the Democrats have, they wanna force the issue on healthcare.

But I wonder politically now whether the polling is beginning to show that people are holding the Democrats responsible.

You can vote for the CR, the clean resolution bill, why don't you just do that now and fight another day?

And I kind of understand where the Democrats are, that they don't take the Republicans at their word.

But what about that?

- Well, there is a resolution before the Senate to actually approve funding for SNAP.

- Right.

- As a continuing resolution.

The Republicans don't wanna do that either.

So it's- - Yeah but wouldn't the house have fund?

Wouldn't the house have to come back and pass that?

- I think so, yeah, they would have to.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Where's the house been the last month?

- Right, they've been out- - On vacation.

- Yeah.

Magaziner likes to say they've been on vacation.

And this is the challenge.

I mean, I think this game of chicken, which is very real to everybody else, but it is just a game for many of these people in Washington.

This is where I think your concerns, Jim, or what you're pointing out are very legitimate.

I think there comes a scenario where people are saying, wait a minute, you know, there's a chance that I might not have food for Thanksgiving.

You need to pass something right now.

I don't care about healthcare going forward, about the affordable care, back about anything else.

Because the most urgent thing is food.

- And let's not forget, let's not forget, you know, the bodegas, the supermarkets, the stores.

- Mm-hmm.

- That depend on this $29 million that come ins, to pay for food.

- Mm-hmm, right.

- What are they gonna do?

I mean, it's going to have an impact on the local economies.

- Right and the phrase that a lot, I've heard a lot on the national discussion is, which pain point is worse right now?

- Yes.

- People not eating or conceptually their healthcare.

And that's coming down the line because we've already seen you were noting you did a podcast the other day talking about he premiums.

- Mm-hmm.

You know it's absolutely ridiculous and it's gonna start coming out this week.

- Right?

- The letters are coming out Saturday as well.

- So what do the numbers look like?

- The numbers look like some people are gonna pay 100, 200, 300% more, for their premiums because the tax credits are going to be eliminated according to the big beautiful bill.

So the Democrats have a very, very strong message that is going to become stronger as people- - Right.

- Open the mail and see- - But that may be tomorrow's fight.

- Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, I mean, well, it becomes this tough scenario.

If you're using the Affordable Care Act and using Obamacare as your insurance, there's a chance that maybe you have enough income where you're not receiving SNAP benefits.

So right now you're getting that bill and you're outrage.

But for people on SNAP benefits, you need that money Saturday, you need that money November 1st.

I think the first wave of outrage is there, the following one and then everybody's mad.

- But wasn't the way- - It's kinda where we are now.

- Healthcare exchange when President Obama first set it up, was the penalty, the mandate- - Mm-hmm.

- You have to take it because it's the young people who aren't going to the doctor or subsidizing the old guys, right?

And I think the problem's gonna be now is a lot of people are gonna get these bills and gonna say, well, I just don't have the money, we're dropping health insurance because I need to put food on the table.

- Absolutely.

- And then there's a cascade with the rest of the health system.

- It's a complete cascade.

And let's not forget that the big beautiful bill also removed the funding for hospitals for uncompensated care, because they say it's healthcare for the illegals, when in reality is basically money going to the hospitals to compensate for a law, that EMTALA that requires the hospitals to take care of people if they show up in the emergency room.

So that is also another shoe to drop- - Yeah.

- You know, for the healthcare system.

We are really in trouble.

- Yeah, it's a dangerous moment for the country because I think it is, you know, the thing is, I think everybody, even those of us who are plugged in or informed or covering a lot of this, I think we're all still kind of waiting for the last minute savior complex that President Trump has, which is, you know, which will maybe Saturday morning he announces we've cut a deal or something like that.

But you're really up against the clock and you've gotten more than one.

It's not just SNAP it's healthcare too that you have to address.

- And by the time you watch this, it may be solved, but the underlying problems aren't going away.

So we'll keep an eye on that.

- [Pablo] They are not.

- Rhode Island taxpayers have poured hundreds of millions of dollars into planned affordable housing projects recently with little to show for it until now.

Dan, let's begin with you.

You've covered Providence for years.

Mayor Smiley put out this housing plan, and he said Providence is kind of leading the way more than maybe some other cities, and certainly in Rhode Island.

What do you make about that?

- Yeah, he has a little bit of a good story to tell here.

You're starting to see that very slow, you know, a lot of the work that has gone into housing, to your point over the last couple of years, maybe start to come to fruition in Providence.

I think Providence has had more permits per capita.

- Nearly 900 permits and 450 units.

- Yeah, completed.

- Which beats out places like New York- - And Boston, yeah.

- And Boston, which is pretty impressive.

So I think that's a good story to tell.

The problem with that is, is you're right, I mean, we're still gonna, I think for years gonna be talking about how slow the pace actually is, because just because you pull a permit doesn't mean a house actually gets built.

Now, there are more units coming online, and we're gonna continue to see that.

I think it's a good story to tell, but tell that to the people whose rents are going through the roof or, you know, who can't afford to buy a house.

It's still a very slow and kind of tedious process.

- Yeah, we beat Boston and New York also in the increase.

- Right.

- In rents.

- We're number one finally.

- We're number one.

- Number one.

- 57% increase.

- It's absolutely ridiculous.

Rents have doubled in the last 10 years.

And you know, the problem with cities creating this kind of hardship for people is that the workers, that they are essential for a city to function cannot live in the city.

- [Dan] Hmm.

- The average rent over $2,000.

- Yeah.

- In the city.

- Which was 900 not that long ago.

- Exactly.

- Well, you know, I looked this up recently.

My first apartment in Providence 2007 was paying $1,000 a month.

I was living with three people, right.

So I was paying nothing, but I looked it up recently, $3,000 a month.

- [Pablo] That's unbelievable.

- It has tripled in, what?

Less than 20 years.

- You know, I find it interesting that the mayor, one of the things they touted in the press conference was the city buying the land for the development and then getting into a private-public partnership.

I mean, it sounds so simple, but why haven't we been doing that already?

- Well, I think there's a lot of challenges with that, right?

So the mayor in this specific case, right?

He wants to purchase land right across from the public safety complex- - Washington Street, right?

- And so you're gonna be able to build that.

You know, I think there's always this appetite from mayors.

I think this was true back with when Gina Raimondo was the governor is, you talk about housing, but you love the shiny big idea of let's get a big business to build a headquarters here.

- Yeah.

- It's more enticing.

You think it's job creation and stuff like that.

So I think we've been hesitant to take land, whether it's by eminent domain or by kind of public private partnership and turn it into housing.

I think because there's been this idea for a long time of let's do job creation.

Now that has flipped on its head, certainly in the downtown area.

You know, everyone's thinking about residential now.

But again, it's a slow process.

- The crisis is real.

I mean when we have one third of households in Rhode Island, that are cost burden that spend more than a third of their income in housing, and 50% of those spend more than 50% - [Host] Right?

- Of their income on housing.

We have a serious problem.

We supposedly need 24,000 units in order to get to parity.

McKee has a goal of 15,000, which is great, you know, but you know, it's only a goal is it's not gonna make it.

- And then, so I mean, what, 200 million, maybe 250 million put in from the ARPA money, and then the extra $100 million bond.

Now, the governor held a press conference recently saying, oh, we're gonna get this money out the door.

I think Helena Foulkes was spot on.

I mean, you know, the governor says, oh, it's political.

Why did it take a year?

Why weren't they ready to go?

'Cause every bond in Rhode Island passes virtually, right?

- Mm-hmm.

- Why weren't they ready in February, March, April?

- Well, I would pin that back and say, you know, we've been waiting for the Kennedy Plaza redevelopment since 2014.

The bond- - Don't hold your breath.

- Right, so I look, I think these things do take far too long.

And I think when it comes to housing, the challenge with this is, the governors, the mayors, the politicians, they love to cut the ribbon on the building, announce that hold the break press conference.

And understandable, I would too if I was in office.

But that's one unit or one set of units, right?

- You gotta flood the market.

- You gotta flood the market, and we haven't seen that.

We haven't seen the, you know, where's the governor and the mayor doing, you know, a press conference a day on 100 units here, 50 units there.

It tends to happen over the course of every couple of months you see it.

And it's too slow.

- It's not enough.

- The idea of flooding the market works, except that flooding the market will take a number of years.

- Right.

- For it to happen.

In the meantime, people are losing their housing.

The proposal by the city council to establish rent control has to be examined.

You cannot depend just on the market for rent to go down.

They will not.

- Yeah.

- And they will not.

- Well and that's a whole controversial thing between the mayor and the- - Yeah Mayor- - The city council.

- And the mayor is pretty resistant on this.

And he points to places like Austin, which in the last couple of years has actually seen rents go down because they kind of flooded the market, but- - [Jim] But you gotta flood the market.

- Yeah, you have to flood without doing that.

I think you're right, Pablo.

While, you know, rent control is a kind of controversial, sort of polarizing topic.

If you are not flooding the market, you gotta find solutions elsewhere.

And that may be one thing to consider - The larger issue, Ellen Lieberman had a great story.

- Yeah she did.

- In Rhode Island monthly.

And she looked at Narragansett where they, you know, they had recalls over housing and East Providence, where they've done overlays of residential in commercial areas.

The Narragansett are not alone in terms of saying, hey, listen, this community has a fabric and we don't want the state telling us what to do.

So there's not so quiet resistance.

They're saying one size doesn't fit all.

- I feel like I repeat myself every time I'm on the show.

Zoning, zoning, zoning.

- Yeah.

- You know, there has to be a big reform on zoning laws here in Rhode Island.

So communities cannot just block, the affordable housing.

- Right.

- Because we need it.

It's best for everyone.

- Yeah.

- If we can afford to live here.

- And by the way, while the focus and Ellen Lehman's article was excellent.

It was really well done- - Yeah I commend you to read it.

Rhode Island monthly, and it's online this month.

And she takes a statewide year.

- And she has a great anecdote at the end where the council, guy wants to serve his community, council president and arrogance that can't afford to live you know, can't afford to own a home- - For his own community.

Well, and you wonder what that's gonna do for the school system- - Right.

- Because teachers and if you can't have young people affording houses- - That's right.

- What's gonna happen to the school population?

- But you know what, the one thing I wanna say is that sometimes I think we, and I'm probably guilty of this, we tend to go after the, let's say the wealthier communities to say, oh, they're so resistant.

Guess what?

The resistance is in Providence too.

- It's everywhere.

- Go look at these side of providence.

You try to do anything on east side of Providence, you get an outrageous, you know, number of people who are talking about the, color of the houses and they- - You can't come and treat.

- They can't do anything without outrage.

And it's everywhere.

- Alright, we'll look forward to the governor and the mayor flooding the market.

- Yeah.

- Okay.

With elections a year away, the field for Attorney general has suddenly gotten crowded with three announced Democrats, another looming, and a potential Republican candidate waiting in the wings.

Dan, let me begin with you.

I think that all the heirs gonna go into and media coverage is gonna go into the governor's race, but this is shaping up interestingly 'cause Peter Neronha is term limited.

- Yeah, and we haven't had a really competitive Attorney General's race, really going back to 2010, the first year Peter Kilmartin got elected.

So it had, you know, there was I think one with Dawson Hodgson- The next time around, but it wasn't especially competitive.

This one is starting to really take shape and look, look interesting.

You've got Keith Hoffman who comes from the Attorney General's office.

He's raised a couple of $100,000.

Kim Ahern just jumped into the race.

Jason Knight, the state representative is in, Joe Solomon wants to get in.

- Could be.

And Charles Calenda on the Republican side, he's run before.

- And so you're gonna have a very, I think, competitive race at a moment where the Attorney General's office is I think, vital because of everything happening nationally.

And because of, and I've at times been critical of him.

But Peter Neronha, I think really changed the shape of that office over the last eight years, and particularly the last couple of years where I think we as Rhode Islanders expect our Attorney general to be outspoken, to be pretty transparent about what's happening.

And so these guys are gonna have a real test on their hands to make the case that they can be like Peter Neronha, not just your kind of standard run of the mill Attorney general.

- This is the talk of the town in every coffee shop and Dunking Donuts.

No, it's not.

(all laughing) - Who's gonna be the AG?

- That's right.

- There's not.

But we have to understand who votes in primary elections.

- Mm-hmm.

- Especially here in Rhode Island, and it's gonna be the activists.

- Mm-hmm.

- And of all the candidates, Kim Ahern has, you know, been able to deliver a message that Democrats are wanting to hear, which is a fighter.

I'm not here to make sure that there's no crime in Rhode Island, I'm here to fight Donald Trump.

- That's right.

- You know, and that is a message that is resonating- - And the primary.

- And the primary.

- But you know, Jason White Knight also was the advocate on the gun legislation.

- Right.

- And I also find it interesting that Peter Neronha has already endorsed Keith Hoffmann.

That seems, now I understand he's going now's- - It's his chief.

- Yeah, but I understand.

But still, I mean, what do you think about that?

- Well, one, I think that endorsement really matters because I think people do, I think especially Democratic primary voters actually really like Peter Neronha.

It's why he considered running for governor for a while and things like that.

And so I think that matters pretty significantly.

He wants to put his thumb on the scale.

He, Peter Neronha wants his sort of legacy to be upheld.

He wants the work in that office to continue.

And he thinks that, you know, Keith Hoffmann is kind of the right person to do that just because he's worked with him.

He knows that stuff.

But I think Pablo's also right about this, while you know, what you're gonna see over the next year on talk radio, there's gonna be this outrage about how much all these candidates, all they do is talk about Trump.

But if you are trying to win a Democratic primary.

- A Democratic primary.

- That's catnip.

- It is out Trump the next one.

- Yeah, who can do it.

- And it'll be nothing else.

I think it's gonna, it's all about who raises the most money, who can get that message out and who looks like the biggest fighter.

- Who would've thought that a democratic socialist was gonna be become the mayor of the city of New York.

- Yeah.

- You know, I mean, it's absolutely incredible where this party is moving towards, and it's not socialism, it's just basically people that are willing to take on the establishment and fight for the common man.

- I do think one question she's gonna have to answer, and this may be insider baseball, why is it taking so long to get these pot licenses out?

We've done those stories about how a lot of people have invested a lot of money and you don't feel badly for 'em 'cause they're gonna make a lot of money.

But some have had to drop off because the, I'm like, oh, we still don't have the pot licenses.

- Right.

- And why is it taken a year?

- Yeah, it has taken a long time that's to your point, this is what Kim Ahearn's probably gonna have to answer to.

And you know what she's gonna do?

She's gonna pivot and say, Trump, Trump, Trump.

And everyone's gonna forget.

- Trump help up the licenses, right?

And everybody's gonna go, they're gonna give her a pass.

- That's right.

You know, making money on pot, you know, was something that was very alluring at the beginning, but the market is flooded.

- [Host] Yeah.

- So prices are going down.

Many stores are actually losing money.

- Well we learned that from Massachusetts.

'Cause you remember the big long lines.

- Oh yeah.

- And then we had people on this show years ago who said, why do I wanna pay an extra whatever, 40% tax I can just go to my dealer, right?

- No, housing plenty of pot.

- Yeah, exactly.

- Alright, we will keep an eye on that race.

Let's do outrageous and/or kudos.

Dan, what do you have this week?

- We were talking about the kind of the housing NIMBYs before, let me tell you about the most frustrating NIMBY situation that I'm witnessing in the city of Providence in particular, when activists and sort of neighborhood, angry people are yelling about Gilbert Stuart Middle School, which is one of the most, embarrassing places that we were sending our children to school for too many years.

That place is falling apart.

And there's this push to save Gilbert Middle School, Gilbert Stuart Middle School.

The same thing happened at Mount Pleasant High School in Providence.

- Right.

- Where everybody wanted to save the pretty new building.

- Yeah, you wrote about that extensively.

- I can't get it.

We have thousands of kids who were going to school in these buildings, now, Gilbert Stuart it's been closed.

They've moved the kids on.

Build them a new building, they deserve.

It's the least we can do to keep kids educated in the city of Providence.

I find it so infuriating when preservationists care more about bricks than they care about kids.

- You aligned was bricks and mortar over the education.

- That's right.

- And being able to go to a school that you actually feel good about, right?

- That you're proud of- - Yah.

- I mean.

- Yeah, that's right, yeah.

- What do you have, Pablo?

- Well, my outrage is, a common outrage, which is Ted Cruz.

- Oh, my goodness.

- In an interview basically clutching his pearls, that we are going to lose snap benefits this Saturday.

People are gonna go hungry.

This is the same guy that voted for cutting funds for USAID that is going to kill 24 million people in the next 10 years.

2.4 almost every year.

That cut the school breakfast, that cut the school lunches.

And that cut SNAP benefits by $183 billion.

Come on, you know?

- Alright.

It is a quick half hour Dan and Pablo, thank you.

And thank you for joining us, be sure and check us out on Facebook, X, Instagram, and on the Ocean State Media YouTube channel.

We'll see you right here next time on "Lively."

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