- People died last winter as a result of the decisions from the mayor of Johnston and others who don't want to build affordable housing.

I mean, they're killing residents in the city in which they live in because they refuse to do basic economic development.

- As far as affordable housing is concerned, we can't put that on the governor, because it's the cities and towns that put the stoplights up, right?

They don't welcome affordable housing in their communities.

(upbeat music) - And welcome into this episode of "Lively."

I'm Jim Hummel.

It's great to have you with us.

We are joined this week by Harrison Tuttle, our political contributor, and attorney and former prosecutor Eva-Marie Mancuso.

In a year that he is fighting for his political life, Governor McKee delivered his strongest State of the State speech, stressing affordability, tax cuts, and a host of new spending.

How he pays for that will be the challenge.

Harrison, you had a little pregame show before the State of the State, which we'll get to later on, but as you step back and you read and you've watched this, what are your thoughts about the governor's address on Tuesday?

- He's clearly fighting for his political life.

I think he's trying to move to rhetoric that some would deem progressive, which is the issue around affordability.

We see the recent election of Zohran Mamdani in New York, and so really focusing about the prices that are going on, the economy, what people are thinking about in their home.

I think the biggest takeaways is his record, and he doesn't have a lot to have to celebrate on his records, particularly with the Washington Bridge, the lack of affordable housing, and the struggles around education, particularly in the City of Providence.

- [Jim] Eva.

- So, it's nice to be with you.

- Nice to be with you as well.

- (chuckling) First time.

- And I'm gonna disagree with you, because having been in the governor's office for two years, I think he went to, not for his political life, but he went to his base as to who he is, and who he is somebody who does care about affordability, does care about all of these issues.

It's just a big, huge conglomerate in dealing with the state, and I think he's done a great job in outlining it in this speech, but I think he's also done a lot, as he's done in the past, you know?

I mean, he realized, I think, he couldn't take on education reform, so what he did was started his- - 365.

Yep.

- 365 Plan, right?

After school plan, and what he did is when he was the mayor, mayoral academies and things like that, so working around the system rather than within the system.

And you saw that come through.

And as far as affordable housing is concerned, we can't put that on the governor, because it's the cities and towns that put the stoplights up, right?

They don't welcome affordable housing in their communities.

That's where the stop's been.

You know, the last time I was here, we talked about this issue.

I think it was in October, and I said, you know, people were demonstrating in Providence.

They should have been in Johnston talking to Mayor Polisena there, where the first thing that happens is a proposal's put forward and they put up all kinds of obstacles to change.

So until we start changing the culture in the cities and towns, get rid of that, "Not in my backyard" mentality, we're gonna have the same problems, as I know it's said, you know, when you were watching your demonstration the other day, and parts of it, it's not about funding, it's about access, right?

And let's take that money and use your proposals.

What about, look at what we did with House of Hope and the small pods and everything, just giving people a chance to get started in that area.

You know, it seems like we're throwing money at housing, but we don't have a plan to get it through the cities and towns.

- And I think that's why many Rhode Islanders are not happy with the current state of Rhode Island.

You know, one of the things that I look for in a leader, particularly in a governor, and what I'd like to see out of our next governor, no matter who it is, is someone who's willing to take that charge and put the political pressure on our different cities and towns that don't want to have those housings, and say, "Look, if you're on board with Rhode Island's 2030 plan, you gotta get on board with affordable housing," and if not, we're gonna make life very politically difficult for you in order to secure housing for the people that are in your city, and most importantly throughout the state of Rhode Island.

- Yeah, I agree with you.

I think that Governor McKee is more of a conciliator, and somebody who brings people around the table, and brings them to the issue rather than telling them what to do, what I've seen of him, and sometimes that's very successful, and sometimes it's just not urgent enough, right?

I mean, it's time.

People are suffering right now.

I know affordability.

I don't have any children in the state of Rhode Island, and they are as Rhode Island as you and I are.

Why?

Because they can't afford it.

- And who would've thought?

I mean, five years ago you worried about your kids coming back maybe because the jobs or whatever, and I have the same thing.

I have kids who live out of state.

They would never be able to afford a house.

I can't afford my house.

If I was buying my house today that we got whatever, 25, 30 years ago, and that's what makes it difficult.

- Let's go to Harrison.

You were organizing a group in the Rotunda.

You had problems with access last year.

You finally got to do it, and this year, the focus was housing, homelessness.

And so I interviewed you and a couple of other people there.

Let's listen to some of the sound bites.

I had talked to people about what they want, the message they wanted to send to Governor McKee before the State of the State.

What's the message?

If Governor McKee was standing right here, right now, what would you tell him?

- Create more housing.

Simple as that.

We need more affordable housing for folks all across the state.

- But it's clear that money is not always the answer, because they set aside $250 million of the COVID money, but we don't have the units that people expected.

- Yeah, there's just no housing production, and it's a lack of... These issues need to be put at the top of the list.

If we're talking about looking after our fellow Rhode Islanders, housing, shelter, food, clothes, all these things need to be at the top of every elected official's list.

- [Jim] There's a lot of decisions that are made, big decisions in this building, and that's one of the reasons you are here tonight.

What's the message you want to send upstairs to the people who are convening tonight?

- If we're doing this off of the little bit of dollars that we're getting from them, imagine using our model to upscale and correctly train those that are doing the work, and pay that.

- You know it's not as simple as money sometimes, and that it's multi-layered.

And I think some of the taxpayers say, "We've put money toward housing, but we're not seeing the results."

What do you say to that?

- I say that they're putting money towards the housing, but what is affordable and who's calculating that?

All of the money that's coming out, we have millions, I believe, that they said inside of these spaces allotted for home buying, but how do you buy those homes, and who's affording those homes if we can't even get out of the gutter that we're in right now?

- And if you want to see more of my interviews and what happened at that rally, you can go to our YouTube page, the Ocean State Media YouTube page.

Harrison, let's begin with you.

You are in a different role now.

You are the organizer for Operation No One Dies.

Tell us about that, and that's through the Council of Churches.

- Correct, Operation NOD, which stands for No One Dies, is a community-led project that started back in July with the sole mission of keeping people off the streets and alive, quite frankly.

We've partnered up with three churches in the City of Providence to do something remarkable, which is to put together a model that has been built up by outreach workers in the state as well as people who are experiencing homelessness, combining both those needs and wants, and turning it into what we have today, housing over 430 people since the month of December starting.

And so what we're seeing is an ability to take care of our neighbors in a way that includes everyone.

It's really getting back to our roots of community.

It's showing that our model is scalable.

We have already three churches, and we have many churches who want to participate.

Our primary call to action to the Executive Office of Housing was to have more funding this winter.

- So you've started with $200,000 as a public-private partnership.

You're organizing the volunteers like we saw in those, with Michela Serrano.

So the thought is, we're in mid-January now, but you're gonna be running out of money between now and the end of the winter, right?

- Yeah, I mean, we've spent at least 80 grand of the money that we've spent.

We're coming up on a six-day stretch here where we'll be open again.

And so not only are we taking care of folks, but we're recognizing that the temperatures continue to dip below a rate that we've never seen before, and so in comparison to previous winters, we're seeing not only the need increasing due to the lack of affordability, but we're also seeing the temperatures continue to go down, which is gonna result in overdose and possible people freezing to death.

- I mean, how can you argue with that?

It's success.

You got a small amount of money, you showed that it's scalable, so let's do it.

That's how I look at it, is that that's what we want.

We want people that are in the trenches, putting things together that work.

And once you see that it works, let's fund it and put the model forward.

Rather than duplicating what's already being done, you took an innovative approach, churches that are empty, right, which we know there's buildings out there, people that are similarly minded, you put them together, and you did it.

To me, that's innovation, and that's really what government should be doing, is encouraging the private sector to do that, and then funding them that way, so kudos.

- You know, Eric Hirsch of Providence College, who you've worked with, and he's been on the homeless issue for a long time, I interviewed him the other day, and you could see this in the longer story that we're posting online.

He said the numbers have gone up so dramatically since COVID in terms of people out on the streets.

It was something like 70, you know, five years ago, and now it's up 400, 475.

You dealt with this when you were in the governor's office, 'cause that's when they had the encampment out on the front yard.

So take us a little bit into that, about how the administration dealt with that.

- Just so we are clear on things, these are temporary solutions.

This is not a project that should be, "Get $2 million.

Let's do it every year."

No, this is a temporary solution.

We need to have that affordable housing up and running, and running now.

So the Executive Housing, whatever they call it now.

I know... - Department of Housing.

Yeah.

- Office of Housing.

That's what they should be doing, is going to the cities and towns and putting that pressure on it, and moving forward to the permanent housing.

That was the biggest thing that I saw when I was with the governor, from the encampments.

The other issue is also the mental health and the substance abuse piece of it.

It's a three-pronged table, Harrison.

And what's hard is that the shelters don't allow you to be there if you are alcohol or drug-dependent, right?

So what happens?

What comes first, the chicken or the egg?

It's just like you talk about people that are unemployed.

How do you go to work every day if you don't have a place to live?

Where do you take a shower so you can walk in and be with coworkers?

So you have to look at it as a multi-discipline problem, and I think the governor has done a great job with that in bringing in the behavioral health piece of it, and recognizing that this is not just a homeless problem, this is also a substance abuse problem, it's a mental health problem, and so you need that trifecta working together.

And that's really, I think, the only place where government should be, is bringing those resources together, and then backing off and letting groups like you do it, because we have to, we have to.

- Yeah, it certainly, it's a multi-tiered approach.

One of the things that we really need is transitional housing as well.

You know, you take a family of three, a single mom with two kids, and she can't pay the rent, and she's out on the street.

She's gotta either choose to go to one of our churches, which is the best available option, but, you know, where do you go?

You don't want that kid to be in a shelter and then go to school.

And so you really need to have a list.

We know we have a list of people who are available for affordable housing when it becomes available, to be able to transition them off, to be able to have them with those social services so that they can get back on their feet, and then get into the regular housing market.

And so if we don't focus on transitionary housing, and not the type that makes different exclusions, people who are formerly incarcerated, people with substance.

I'm talking about people that just can't pay their bills.

How can we make sure that they're up in housing?

We used hotels for a couple of years.

That didn't really work, but we need to start innovating as to how we can use available infrastructure in our state to be able to fill up some of these spots for transitional housing.

- You told me when I interviewed you on Tuesday night, is that you said when somebody goes to a shelter, they're not getting out because it's almost like, not a death sentence, but it's like, you're gonna be here because there's nowhere to go when you get out.

What about what Eva said about the resistance from the communities?

And there's been creative ways to try to say we're gonna try to torpedo getting some affordable housing in our town.

It's coming from the state down, but there's been an uprising from some communities, saying, "We just don't want this."

- Yeah, it's ridiculous.

People died last winter as a result of the decisions from the mayor of Johnston and others who don't want to build affordable housing.

I mean, they're killing residents in the city in which they live in because they refuse to do basic economic development.

I mean, this idea of post World War II, in which everybody is gonna have, you know, a house and everything.

This is what they claim that they support, yet when it comes to implementation of policy and economic development, they're not in support.

I mean, you cannot put a business for a restaurant if nobody can come because they can't afford to live in the city that you're putting up a restaurant.

So I don't care how many Chick-fil-A's you put up there.

So this is one of those things where I believe either folks need to step out the way, or folks need to take upon a new vision for what they believe their city is gonna be in the next 10 years, because no one's gonna be able to live in there.

- I think it's also going directly to the public, because when you speak directly to people through your churches, through your community groups and what have you, people don't understand.

As soon as they hear "affordable housing," they think the Manton projects in Providence and all the stuff they read on the news, and it's just not.

I live in East Greenwich, and we have affordable housing everywhere.

We just had a whole new development go up.

It's beautiful, you know, and I just don't understand why people in the public... But again, I think part of it is ignorance, ignorance to the issue, and how easily it's solved.

- People are scared of poverty, and people are scared of the fact that we have public housing that has been neglected for decades, and they see that neglected public housing, and that's on them.

That's not on the people that live there.

- So the only pushback I have to that is some of the crime areas, right, and that we've been trying to do that community policing.

I know in Providence, I mean, you know, Colonel Clements and then Perez afterwards, you know, what a great job they've done.

And, you know, I have a stake.

My dad was police chief in Providence, so, you know, I really look at what they've done with community policing and things like that, putting the officers in the school so they get to know it.

You know, when we were in school, it was Mister Friendly Police Officer, you know, getting to know that, to get into it, because I think crime is an issue as well that people are afraid of.

But that's the exception, not the rule.

And that's what happens, is the media will go out and say, "Oh, there was a shooting in the Hartford Projects."

They don't look at the kids that are coming out of the Hartford projects that are doing great in school, and the people that are going to work every day, right?

So I think it's really incumbent on us to start that grassroots education piece, and I think doing it through the churches and the established groups is a great way to approach it.

So you got a real fan here.

I think that... - (chuckles) Thank you.

- Well, you know, I mean, this is my state.

I love Rhode Island, and I don't like when I see people that are making ignorant decisions based on things that are the exception and not the rule.

So we as people who are activists need to get involved in training and talking to people.

So it might be you're at a coffee shop, and people are talking about this issue, and somebody says something that's not right.

Instead of just turning away, you need to say, "Well, wait a minute.

Let me explain this to you.

This is how it works."

I know that's what I tend to do, and it's much more in the boomer group than it is in your group.

- [Jim] We're shocked that Eva speaks up.

Last thought on that?

- We're putting collectivism in 2026 over individualism.

- There you go.

Let me, just before we finish on the State of the State, 'cause we've got a couple other things to talk about.

The budget, up to 14 billion.

You saw it go up with a lot of the COVID money.

It was, you know, it was 50% less right before COVID.

There's a lot of talk.

Mike DiBiase from RIPEC had an op-ed that, look, we don't have a revenue problem.

It's a spending problem.

At what point does the budget become unsustainable?

You want to try to please everybody, and your constituents, but we're Rhode Island.

It's a $14 billion budget.

Did the numbers concern you at all about where it's getting?

- Sure, the numbers concern me, but I think it's a lot of the same issue that we're talking about.

We keep funding the same thing with... - What's the result?

- Right.

- Yeah.

- Right, so.

- And there's been a lot of talk about the millionaires tax, but he described that as a gimmick, that we need to get to some underlying structural... A lot of people say, "What am I getting?

As the average Rhode Islander, shat am I getting for that 14 billion?

It's gone up.

How does that affect me?"

- Yeah.

- [Jim] You take issue with what Mr.

DiBiase said.

(chuckles) - Well, I mean, there's a difference between good governance and then basic investment in our communities.

I mean, we have a government that is really corrupt in the fact of a relationship pay-to-play model.

That's gotta end.

We've got a situation where a majority of the jobs that are coming in the state of Rhode Island are coming from government, and so as the government continues to expand their jobs based on the social services and the welfare state that we have, it's gonna continue to balloon because the private sector is not developing.

All of our small businesses are struggling, the big companies are leaving, and we see hospitals closing as well as privatization of social services.

- All right, the Rhode Island Foundation took the lead in a proposal to reform the school funding formula.

We could probably glaze you over with four hours of figures, but the bottom line is, Eva, they've been talking about this for a long time.

Among your many hats that you've worn, you were the former chairman of the Board of Education 15 years ago.

They were talking about it back then.

- Same issues.

So when preparing for today, I ChatGPTed, myself, right?

- [Jim] There you go.

- So I could see what the education, what would come up on it, and it was amazing to me.

It's all the same issues.

And it was just the beginning of the funding formula.

Remember, the funding formula went in place in 2010.

I was chair of the board at the time, and we knew that there were issues.

- And explain what that is.

They try to match it to communities to be as fair as possible, demographics, you know, population, all of that.

- Right, and the thing is, and then tweak it for certain areas and certain populations, right?

So we called it the backpack approach, right?

The money goes with the child, so if the child decides to go to a mayoral academy, or a charter school, or a public school, then the money went with them.

Well, what happens is then all of a sudden we said, "Well, wait a minute.

What are we gonna do with English language learners?"

You know, you can't just throw them into a school the day they come to America.

You know, what are we gonna do with kids that have severe and profound disabilities?

How are we gonna handle that?

So the formula keeps getting tweaked.

I have a plan.

The Eva Mancuso plan.

- My goodness, let's hear it.

- I'm telling you.

I said this before.

We have 39 cities and towns.

We have 39 school committees.

We have 39 little fiefdoms of everybody saying that this is the way we're gonna do it.

We're looking at it right now on an issue near and dear to my heart is cell phone use in the schools, okay?

The law passed last year thanks to Representative Julie Casimiro, who was the leader on this.

Okay, so now every city and town has to come up with a plan on how to restrict... Well, wait a minute.

Now we're gonna have all these school committees talking about what they think about their community.

- So you're saying consolidate.

- Consolidate.

It's the only way to do it.

Think about it.

- Eva, they haven't done it, 'cause it's power.

You gotta give up your job, you gotta give up power.

Who's gonna make 'em do that?

Eva, you wanna come in?

You're gonna be the hammer?

- Lemme tell you something.

What did I just say?

We have to make strong, bold decisions.

It's not money.

We have the money that's there.

We have to say that we are investing in Providence.

We are investing in kids that are coming into this state.

Why?

'Cause we're gonna own 'em.

Because the bottom line is we know it's the pipeline to prison if you don't do it when the kids start young.

- Yeah, I know.

(chuckling) I actually agree.

I think, you know, I'll probably get in trouble from a lot of folks who wanna keep their jobs, and you'll completely understand that, but... - How do you think I feel?

Mine all have the jobs.

- Yeah, but, you know, you do have to consolidate, because you gotta recognize the population that we're dealing with, the scope of that, the amount of students that are transferring to different cities and towns, where career and technical academies as well.

And so it's not like a student is staying in one particular area.

Athletes from different cities and towns are going to different schools in order to compete for athletic championships, but also a better education.

And so we're in a situation here where, again, we've gotta make an analysis based on where the funding is going, acknowledge that the system is broken, make those corrections, and then have a broader vision for where we want every student to be, while acknowledging the fact that you do have a diverse population that is entering the workforce, and parents who are very upset about the lack of access to a quality public education and are moving into the charter schools.

- Yeah.

Where do the charter schools fit in here?

- So, I think all the schools come together under the way we're talking about, and Harrison just pointed it out.

Back in the day, so when we were in school, you went to the local high school, - Right.

It was neighborhood.

- You know, my parents moved, you know, lived in Cranston, and they went to Cranston, and it was important for them for me to go to Cranston East because that was the school, first of all, it's where they went to school, but that was the school.

That was my only option.

It was either there or Catholic school or private school.

- I would've pegged you- - That was it.

- for Bay View.

- No, I went to St.

Paul's growing up, but then I busted out and went to public high school, 'cause my mom worked at Cranston East, so, you know, it was hard.

You know, that was the big part, so... - But that model's disappeared.

- The model's gone.

So now I can decide, "Well, I wanna do career in tech, so I'm gonna go to Coventry and there," or, "I'm gonna go to Davies," right?

So the model already changed, but the infrastructure hasn't changed.

- And you think of the generations of kids who we have failed in Providence schools.

I mean, how many superintendents have they had?

That's a whole nother discussion about who's gonna control it going forward, but it's, I mean, you're starting behind the eight ball if you're in most public schools in Providence as a kid.

- You are.

We're starting behind, because we've got old infrastructure that needs to be updated to more of skills, trade, and labor-based, particularly within the group of students right now that are gonna be entering an economy that's gonna be very different than the last 30 years.

The next millionaires are gonna be the plumbers and then the electricians.

- The electricians, yeah.

- That's right.

- Can't get one, right?

- And so from a community development, on a housing perspective, we just need to think about, you know, where we're gonna be in the next 20 years, not relying upon possibly the federal government for traditional programs in which we once took for guaranteed.

- So if the Rhode Island Foundation had come to you, what's the Eva plan beyond the regionalization or consolidation?

What would you do?

- Basically, no, when I read the plan, and, you know, I read the plan.

- Of course you did.

- When I looked at it, I said to myself, "This is tweaking a system that is broken."

- So you're nibbling around the edges.

- Right, right.

So you're coming forward with ideas.

- It's not structural change.

- That's right.

And the thing is, we have an opportunity.

We're an aging population.

I'm not saying you go in, you fire all the superintendents, or you get rid of everybody.

- But it's attrition, and as they're leaving, you begin to consolidate.

- Right, because we've done it.

We've done it with the career in tech, we've done it with the specialized schools, that you can, the kids are moving from place to place, but we're not investing in that big part.

You know, what do we do?

We add more people to the department of education.

Do we really need that?

Do we really need more overseers?

We need more teachers in the classroom.

We need more people working with boots on the ground.

You know, that's where the impact's gonna be.

- Will you guys come on as special consultant?

What do you think?

You should call David Cicilline, and say, "We'd be happy to get in a room and brainstorm."

- Yeah, no, I mean, I think the most important thing moving forward is just protecting the security of teachers, making sure that teachers get paid more, making sure that they feel protected and supported.

They're taking a lot of different responsibilities now, and what we want to do is build out a system with their expertise in the forefront, and say, "What do you actually need for your students?"

- Okay, last thought?

- And the other part that I like, the other part that I really like too is I like the governor's plan on attendance matters, because you can't help somebody- - If they're not there.

- if they're not there.

So putting that emphasis on attendance is just so important.

- All right, let's go to outrages and/or kudos.

Mr.

Tuttle, what do you have this week?

- Well, kudos to Operation NOD and all of the folks who are working.

We're providing jobs for people in the community.

We're providing stable housing for people when the temperature reaches 22 degrees real feel and below, and we look forward to collaborating with all the direct service providers in the coming months.

- Great.

Eva, what do you have?

- My kudos, "Eureka Day."

- Eureka?

- "Eureka Day" at the Gamm.

I went last night.

I laughed like I haven't laughed before.

- Whoa.

We have theater reviews too.

Who knew?

- Oh my goodness.

- You been doing a lot in your spare time these days.

- It's a school group, and they're basically, they're debating whether or not there's going to be inoculations for all the kids.

Mumps is the issue that's there, but it is so funny.

They do such a great job with it, and I happened to be sitting next to a retired pediatrician, and she was like, "Ugh, this is actually true, that, you know, you just have some of these crazy ideas about vaccines."

And I said, "Well, you're talking to a former chair of Board of Education that had heard a few of those too."

So, but what a job the Gamm does.

It's the best money for a night out to go and see, so.

- [Jim] That's great.

- It's supporting our local theaters.

- All right, it's a quick show.

Thanks.

Will you guys come back?

- Sure.

- You should have your own podcast.

- Wait a minute.

Don't get any ideas.

- We might, we might.

- All right.

- We'll invite you, Hummel.

We'll invite you.

- I'll be your first guest.

Thank you.

And thank you for joining us.

Be sure and check us out on Facebook, X, Instagram, and on the Ocean State Media YouTube channel.

We'll see you next time here on "Lively."

(upbeat music) - [Voiceover] "Lively" is generously supported in part by John Hazen White's Lookout.