- [Jim] The fate of two Rhode Island hospitals hangs in the balance this week.

- This is a catastrophe, not a crisis.

A catastrophe that is about to hit our faces in Rhode Island, in our own backyards.

- If they close.

- If they close.

(crowd cheers) The bottom line is, that message resonate.

And you saw over 2 million people come out to vote.

Their pocketbook issues; food, housing, healthcare, things that matter to them.

- Grocery stores are already feeling it.

Stop and shops reporting that it was like a ghost town this weekend because people cannot use the money.

So, it's really impacting Rhode Islanders, and these are real people.

And is making the decision between food, health and housing.

(upbeat bright music) - And welcome into this episode of "Lively".

I'm Jim Hummel.

We're joined this week by Weayonnoh Nelson-Davies.

The Executive Director of the Economic Progress Institute.

And attorney and former Cranston Mayor, Allan Fung.

Welcome to both of you today.

- Thanks.

- Thanks, Jim.

- Rhode Island has been ground zero during the national discussion on federal food assistance benefits, as Judge John McConnell ordered the Trump administration to pony up for the 42 million who receive SNAP.

Weayonnoh, let's begin with you.

You've been neck deep in this.

The order and the execution, as a lawyer you know are sometimes two different things.

- Exactly.

And I will say, I think this whole SNAP crisis is infuriating and heartbreaking.

We are in the United States deciding that we can not feed 42 million people.

And it's not because we don't have the food or the funding.

So, what the order was, the government before the order of Judge McConnell decided that they would not use $6 billion in contingency fund that was put aside for emergency SNAP reasons.

And the judge said, "No, you have to.

"You have to either use all of it and fund the full $9 billion a month that we need in November, or partial."

If it's partial, it has to be immediately.

The chaos around this continue even after that order.

First they say, "Yes, we're gonna comply.

Then they said, we're only going to use partial funding 'cause we have $6 billion, and not find the rest of it to fund 9 billion."

Then the president gets on social media on Monday and say, "We will not follow the order unless the Democrats comply and stop the shut down."

- Don't you know to stay off social media.

Come on now.

- I tried, I tried.

And then they backtrack, and the White House said like, "No, we'll comply."

But then now, they're doing partial funding, but in a way that's making it difficult for states to implement because they're using a formula that is not clear and dry, that we're gonna do 50% of what people are supposed to receive.

They're using a very complicated formula.

- Yeah.

And let me take it back down to the local level.

First, I gotta give a shout out and kudos to the Economic Progress Institute and what they're doing.

'Cause I see the emails that they're sending out targeting a lot of our most vulnerable population.

People that I grew up with on the south side of Providence that really need that food assistance.

And they're forced now with these decisions from both sides of the aisle down in Washington DC, who are refusing to stop this insanity going on down there and act like adults.

That are having a dramatic impact, a catastrophic impact, forcing people in our own backyards, in our communities, into the tough decision between food and medicine.

And if you choose food for your everyday efforts, what's gonna happen is they're gonna put aside the prescriptions or everything else that they need, and it's gonna cause a crisis, an added crisis into the healthcare system.

Flooding our emergency rooms, flooding our healthcare system.

And we already know it's a compounding effect.

This has gotta stop.

Those adults down in DC, 'cause I can't call 'em adults, they're acting like children, need to grow up and get back to work.

And I look back at this, where's the leadership?

Where is that gang of eight from back in the day to kind of help all of us and forget about the partisan politics.

- Yeah, I agree.

And we're talking about it.

And it's not small numbers for who will be impacted in Rhode Island.

We're talking about 140, 45,000 people, right?

- [Jim] 15% of the population.

- 15% of the population.

And our economy.

People don't understand that the SNAP benefits also help our economy.

We get over $347 million a year in our economy from SNAP.

So, grocery stores are already feeling it.

Stop and shops reporting that it was like a ghost town this weekend because people cannot use the money.

So, it's really impacting Rhode Islanders, and these are real people.

And it's making the decision between food, health and housing.

When you can, you have to.

There's the same money, it's the same pot people have to use to pay for their basic needs.

And they are feeling it right now.

And it's unfair to the people of America.

- Yeah.

And what's disappointing about the whole thing?

You're seeing both sides of the aisle not getting together.

I'd rather see a debate on the floor of Congress, whether it's Senate chambers or the House chambers.

- [Jim] No one's been in the House for the last five weeks.

- No one's been in there.

No one is in there.

And rather, you know where the debates are happening?

MSNBC, Fox News, CNBC, or on social media.

- Exactly.

- And then the fundraising clips come from it.

It's not about politics, it's about real world people.

And look, we've got a lot of people across the country, in our backyards, it's 145,000 here.

That 29 million coming into our state coffers every month is a significant part.

And now, we saw the governor putting out the emails about the formula now because of partial, no one understands that.

We're all bright people, and we're having difficult times understanding that.

- [Weayonnoh] Exactly.

- So, a week ago the governor said we're gonna... They had the big get together with the Rhode Island Foundation.

And that can only fill in so much.

But what about the local efforts in terms of food banks, donations?

Is that helping fill the gap?

- I think it is.

And one of the things, I think people is interesting, in moments like this you see the community stand up, right?

Where the government's filling, the people are standing up.

So, the Food Bank, Elijah Project, you have Mount Hope Center are getting together and doing food drives.

Even EPI, who we do data and research, were having a training on navigating public benefits so people understand the impact on SNAP and Medicaid post Big Beautiful Bill.

And were telling people, please bring non-perishable food when you come to this training.

So, communities is stepping up.

And I have to give it up to Governor McKee, that looked at what we had in our reserve and said, we need to make sure at least children and their families can eat prior to the order.

But that is a short term solution.

If this continue in December or January, Rhode Island cannot afford to backfill this.

- I should have brought a canned good this morning for you.

- You should have, Jim.

- I'm so sorry.

I didn't put it in my bag.

- You should have.

- [Allan] I should've too.

- Yes, yes.

- The larger issue is, is the shutdown at this point.

And I thought, we're gonna talk at some point about the elections, but I thought that now that we're beyond that, okay, let's just put all of this aside.

But I wonder, that gang of eight that you referred to was Link Chaffe, Susan Collins, Olympia Snowe.

Moderate Republicans and Democrats who would get together.

And it's, we've gotten so divided now, nobody wants to blink.

- We're missing that now.

And you just saw another member of Congress, Jared Golden up in Maine, a moderate centrist person who's saying, "I give up because it's become so toxic.

It's having an impact on my life, my family's life."

- [Jim] You see people leaving Congress, right?

- They're leaving Congress.

Threats on his children.

- [Jim] Yeah.

- Come on, cut this out.

- [Jim] What are we doing here?

- What are we doing here?

This is not what our country is about.

When I sat back last night, my wife and I went to Brown University, the Ogden lecture, and listened to Condi Rice about how it was different during different administrations in the past.

You're losing that leadership now.

We gotta stop focusing on raising money for the next election, or focusing on this is gonna be the issue, we're gonna drive the next election.

Let's focus on us.

They're forgetting about that.

By the way, how many members of Congress are getting paid while everyone else isn't?

- Exactly.

- That's the real kicker.

- It is.

- And somebody proposed, maybe we should stop that.

But those are the first people.

You're not doing your job, right?

- [Weayonnoh] You're not.

- So, why would you get paid?

- And you're getting paid, you're not even in DC having the conversations that you need to have.

And I think what is important here is, why do we have a shutdown?

What are the issues, right?

And I think there are a couple of things at issue.

Is the long term, and it's really connected to the OBBBA and what has happened this year.

So, Democrats are arguing that they want to want ensure, something that's not talked about, the empowerment issue.

Where they wanna ensure that when Congress under the constitutional right appropriate funds, the president cannot refuse to distribute that fund.

And we're saying it with the SNAP crisis, where he is refusing to distribute conditional fund unless a judge tells him to.

So, that's one issue for the shutdown long term.

They don't want to appropriate something and don't have a provision that will make sure the president abides by the Constitution.

The other part that is important are these advanced premium tax credits.

And that is critical.

What does that mean?

At the end of 2025, people who needed tax credit to afford to pay for health insurance in our marketplace will no longer have that.

Premiums are gonna double.

Some families are gonna see that rise about 85%.

And that is a big issue.

So, whether it's appropriation, figure out the shutdown or not, we need to make sure people can pay for health insurance going forward because we're gonna be facing another crisis after December.

- Well, and the Republicans have been trying to get rid of Obamacare for 10 years, but they don't... It was repeal, but there's no replace.

And so, I see kind of a slow walk on the benefits.

The larger issue is that this is affecting red states and blue states.

And I just don't understand why the people at some point representing those districts realize this is a bill that's gonna come due sooner rather than later.

- We should not be playing chicken with reform.

- I agree.

- These are great policy debates that we're having.

No matter where we stand on the aisle, it should be a debate, like I said before, in front of government, amongst one each other.

Not at forums like this, on social media, trying to drive a political agenda.

And that's what's missing right now.

And that's what's... It's crazy, because reform shouldn't happen through a shutdown and one side or the other holding the other side hostage over, I want this, no, I want this.

And it's gotta be my way or the highway.

Where is that leadership pulling people together?

- [Weayonnoh] I agree.

- Even if it's eight people coming together to try to drive some type of change.

We're not seeing that effective leadership today, especially at that federal level.

But some of the states are really getting caught up into it.

And you're right, it's impacting not just blue states, red states too.

- It's impacting everyone.

And I think what we need is, there's trust broken, right?

The people do not trust the government.

The government do not trust each other that we can all act in good faith.

And that is the problem.

So, we need to get back where we are all focused on one goal, to make America the best country it can be, where people can afford basic needs.

And people are listening and people are watching, and there is an unrest.

The elections that took place tell us that, we the people are watching and saying we cannot afford food, and we cannot afford healthcare, and we will do something about it if the government does not.

- We're taping on a Thursday morning.

What is your confidence that this is gonna be, that the shutdowns gonna end in the next couple of days or by the weekend?

- I'm not confident at all.

- Not confident at all?

- I'm not confident either.

- All right.

Maybe all three of us are not confident.

Okay.

- Well, it closed last time, when it was getting to that tipping point about travel.

Which we're on the precipice of now.

- [Jim] Yeah, with airports.

- Let's see if that'll be a tipping point, or they just still don't care.

- Was it a blue wave on Tuesday?

Democrats in red and blue states won convincingly across a number of races.

Will this be enough for Republicans in the vulnerable areas to break from President Trump?

Allan, you've got ear to the ground on this.

I wonder what your thoughts.

We'll look at the macro in a minute.

Your reaction to what happened on Tuesday's elections?

- Well, I think the biggest one that a lot of people are talking about all across the country is what happened in New York City, with Mamdani winning as mayor.

And I've got a little bit of a different take on that victory, because I think President Trump wanted that to happen.

Here's why.

We were talking about, in the last segment, about politics.

He wants Mayor Mamdani now to be the face of the Democratic party for the next election.

An a vowed democratic socialist, so that they can campaign on that.

- [Jim] He could be the boogieman.

- He can be the boogeyman.

They did it with the so-called squad, when they termed it.

Now, they're going to push it, especially in these you red states, purpleish states, to try to make an influence.

Because one thing that happened, I saw the Virginia Governor, Abigail Spanberger deliver her speech.

He doesn't want her to be the face of the Democratic party 'cause she comes across to everyone as a common sense mother.

She had her three daughters.

I listened to that speech.

She was a very effective speecher with a good platform.

He doesn't want her to be the face of the Democratic party.

He wants Mamdani and that democratic socialist label.

- Yeah, he likes to fight.

And he gets that from the New York mayor.

But I will say though, it's risky now to also want that.

Because what happens when there is chaos, as is been this year.

The people then know- - This year?

Several years.

- Several years, yeah.

But especially this year, with everything that has happened under the Trump administration and Congress, even with this Big Beautiful Bill, the people are now saying we are feeling it in our pockets.

And what has happened in our history is when people get unsettled with what is happening with the ruling party, they go to the next foot.

And young people want to see more action.

They've been pushing a democratic party, like we need you to stand up.

It's not business as usual.

So, making him the face of the party may backfire on Trump because people want something different, and they want something really different.

So, that's a risk that he might be taking.

- Well, one of the things about Mamdani that I saw, 'cause I follow that closely on the ground, is he was a very effective speaker.

- Right.

- He focused not on the politics of things.

He was talking to individuals.

- [Jim] The kitchen table issues, right?

- The kitchen table issues.

Listening.

And he wouldn't fall into that trap of, oh he's a democratic socialist.

No one understands what a democratic socialist is.

- I mean, I don't.

- But they do understand exactly what we've been talking about, their pocketbook issues.

Food, housing, healthcare, things that matter to them.

And he was talking directly to them.

Whether he could accomplish that.

Look, everyone knows where I stand on it.

I don't think so.

And that's why you're seeing a lot of states, a lot of governors trying to pull a lot of businesses out of New York City right now.

But the bottom line is that message resonate, and you saw over 2 million people come out to vote.

- I think a lot of people vote in the election.

"I don't know what he's exactly for, but I know I don't like what's going on now."

- [Weayonnoh] Correct.

- It's kind of a protest vote.

I do think, so Trump simplifies it and he said, this is not a surprise, he's calling him a communist.

So, different from a democratic socialist.

But that rings true.

A lot of people in Red States, "Oh, he's a communist."

- [Weayonnoh] Exactly.

- So, that's gonna be the label.

He's never gonna call him a democratic socialist.

But don't you think that people can separate the mayor of New York from what happened across the rest of the country?

New Jersey, Virginia got flipped.

There were races in Georgia, Mississippi, the Supreme Court justices in Pennsylvania.

That you gotta wonder what the Republicans are thinking now.

Like, hey listen, we got a year to the midterms, what's gonna happen?

- I agree.

And the Republican have been talking a lot this year about they got a mandate from people in 2024, and that is why they are buying with the immigration attacks and making sure they cut waste and fraud.

The Democrats now feel like they have a mandate from the people to make sure they push policies that make things affordable.

People in the end of this year, actually as we're talking about the SNAP crisis, SNAP is gonna be impacted by what happened with the H.R.1 passes.

So, people are gonna still, regardless of the shutdown, are not gonna start seeing their food disappear.

They're gonna start seeing the impact on their health insurance.

And that will also impact how they live.

States are now gonna be responsible to pay for SNAP, so state budgets are gonna be impacted.

So, that is what people are gonna be seeing, and that is what people are gonna be voting for in 2026.

- Allan, if you're a Republican in a vulnerable district right now.

You're in Congress, the Senate less so, but the Republicans are, the congressmen are up every two years.

What are you thinking, what are you doing?

- You're sitting there going, how am I gonna survive this next election?

What's my plan of action?

Am I gonna take that centrist approach and try to break this log jam, be one of those individuals that are part of that past gang of eight or however many numbers to kinda work together to kind of get something done and show leadership to your people?

The problem is our electorate has changed so much.

They're not respecting the true coming together and compromise anymore.

It's either gonna be one way or the other.

A lot of that has come down to elections, money, and messaging.

Getting back to President Trump and what we believe he's gonna be doing.

He's playing a dangerous game of chicken, and you're gonna see how many individuals are gonna follow along with that, go their separate ways, or possibly even face a primary.

And that's on both sides of the alley.

- What I don't get is, he's won on immigration, but he's gone farther with sending in the National Guard troops, which is getting litigated.

Why can't you just take the victory and say, look, immigration had slowed to a trickle?

Whether you agree with that or not, it's the economic issues.

I'm gonna bring prices down on day one.

- Exactly.

- When people hit the grocery store, they don't like it.

- They don't like it, they don't like it at all.

And they don't like the policies because they are extreme.

Even talking about immigration, it was, I'm gonna get rid of criminals and undocumented immigrants.

The SNAP and Medicare cuts are also impacting refugees.

They're impacting people with salaries.

Abused spouses and children, he is going after them to say they cannot get safety nets.

So, people are saying that.

And they don't like that either, that the president doesn't have humanity at the center of all he's doing.

And it's also affecting their pockets.

And the other thing too, I know people talk about, will Mamdani also afford all the things he's saying?

But people wanna dream about universal healthcare and childcare, whether we like to or not.

And people are not buying into it that the US cannot afford it when we're giving tax breaks to the wealthy.

We can afford universal healthcare and childcare.

We're making choices.

And through the no king protests, you can see that people are recognizing that we are making choices to serve one population versus the other.

And people are not happy with that.

- People are not happy at a lot more even different levels that are sometimes too afraid to even chat or even seek help for a lot of the benefits.

And one of the other demographics that, we're talking about communism, socialism, which a lot of next generation, because they're not learning about the truth- - [Jim] They never studied it.

- They never studied it.

- For us it was like, oh, the communists are coming, right?

- Hey, communists are coming.

And the, a lot of seniors, a lot of seniors that would understand that type of messaging are also feeling it.

And it's not just they come from a generation that's too proud to ask for help, or that are like my parents, other people's grandparents that came from that generation, or also cultural divide, may not trust to kind of go and ask for help from government too.

- Yeah.

- That type of messaging may backfire if they're impacted too, too afraid to ask.

But see, things are not helping them as well.

- Alright.

It's gonna be an interesting 12 months leading up to the midterms.

The fate of two Rhode Island hospitals hangs in the balance as a buyer for Roger Williams Medical Center and our Lady of Fatima Hospital has not been able to put financing together.

Allan, let's begin with you on this.

I mean, healthcare in Rhode Island, we've got a heck of a time as it is.

This doesn't look good.

They had a buyer lined up, but they're having a problem getting financing.

That's the problem.

- That's one of the problems.

We've talked about this on prior shows, but what's missing is we're talking about it on this show.

Not a lot of people are talking about it on Smith Hill.

This is a catastrophe.

Not a crisis, a catastrophe that is about to hit our faces in Rhode Island in our own backyards.

- [Jim] If they close.

- If they close.

Because let's face it, everyone is being in, we're talking about in our prior segments, about people only understand what they feel or what they see.

It's already difficult to try to get a primary care physician.

Never mind getting in to see a primary care doctor.

Nevermind getting to see a specialist.

The waits in the ER are astronomical right now.

I had a friend that just went in by ambulance that went in, and had to still wait eight hours before he got into the ER.

It's unbelievable what's going on.

And if those two critical components of our healthcare system go down, forget about it.

It's gonna make COVID look like child's play.

- Yeah, no, I agree.

I think our leadership have to get around the table and think of what the options are.

So, if this deal's not going through, we need to look at what is the next deal.

Who can buy these hospitals?

Because it's the patients, it's the employees.

So now, we're facing unemployment with everything else that going on.

Where are those employees gonna go?

- But who'd wanna buy a hospital in Rhode Island right now?

- Well, then we have to sell it.

That's the job, - Right.

Or let's get innovative.

Let's focus on other healthcare priorities that can convert that.

'Cause we've got a prime example already with Pawtucket Memorial.

Look what that did to upset our healthcare system right now.

- [Jim] When it closed.

- When it closed, right.

It's not only sitting as an empty, not all of it, but partially empty building that's a blight on Pawtucket until they're trying to- - They've been talking about rehabbing it in one form or another for years, but it sits.

- It sits.

And then what's happening?

Miriam Hospital, Brown Hospital, all of those individuals are flooding the ERs.

That's also contributing to why we can't get access into our doctors.

But if those two hospitals close, imagine the impact that it will have on our existing healthcare system.

- And we were talking before air, you and I were talking off air about Rhode Island taking on the two Massachusetts hospitals.

And I'm not sure exactly what the finances are, whether they're getting better reimbursement rates.

But Rhode Island and Care New England, Lifespan or whatever they call it now.

Brown Health.

- Brown Health, yeah.

- And Care New England are on a thin margin to begin with.

- They are.

So, beyond these two hospitals, we really have a crisis here.

Because now Brown Health have taken up more than we know whether they can chew or not.

And then we have these two fill in hospital.

So, either everyone's not sitting at the table and saying this is all of our problems, and we need to be created and figured out a way that these cannot go bankrupt.

Or we need to figure it out, is there one system?

Does the state take over?

Can Rhode Island afford to take over?

I'm not sure that it's a good option.

But we need to be better at marketing what is great about investing in Rhode Island, and we're not doing a good job at that.

- And to your point about being at the table, the table hasn't even been set yet.

If I were governor, and don't take this as an announcement.

No way, no, no.

- But if I were governor.

- No, but if I were governor, I'd have the Hospital Association of Rhode Island, The Rhode Island Medical Society, a lot of the key stakeholders in that industry at a table right now.

- [Weayonnoh] Exactly.

- Because we're staring down this crisis.

The legislative leaders need to be there, because we have to act.

It's not about just, hurricanes coming.

Oh, make sure the Providence hurricane barrier comes down.

No, all hands on deck.

Make sure you've got the bread and milk in the supermarkets.

Make sure you're boarding up the windows along the coast.

That's what we are on right now.

A category five that's coming- - [Jim] Hair on fire.

- Yes.

- Hair on fire.

And to his credit, Attorney General Neronha flew out to Texas trying to work out a solution.

- [Jim] To the bankruptcy court.

- To the bankruptcy court.

But you expect more from your leaders.

It seems like, and this is always the situation in Rhode Island, especially here.

They're putting their heads in the sand until it hits, and we can't afford to wait.

- Alright.

I think we're gonna know a lot more in the next couple of weeks, as the bankruptcy and potentially a new buyer.

Let's go to outrageous and/or kudos.

Allan, let's begin with you this week.

- Kudos.

I'm staying a little bit my Asian heritage.

It was phenomenal game seven of the World Series.

LA Dodgers won.

But I love the fact that baseball has transformed from America's game, and included culturally worldwide show hay.

Roky and Yamamoto as being a key component of that victory.

- Yeah, and they've been so embraced.

And what a series too.

I was reading the ratings were through the roof.

- Through the roof.

- Well, it's too game seven, right?

- Right.

- And then it went into extra innings, which is crazy.

- Yep.

- Weayonnoh, what do you have this week?

Outrage or kudos?

- I'll do kudos.

And I'll do kudos to Delores Committee for Rhode Island, our coordinating member, and the plaintiffs that brought the suit to get SNAP benefits for the 42 million people in the state.

So, that the fact that it happened in Rhode Island, lead plaintiff, Rhode Island Council of Churches, kudos for them for standing up for the rest of the nation.

- Alright, that is great.

Thanks to both of you, and thank you for joining us.

Be sure and check us out on Facebook, X, Instagram, and on the Ocean State Media YouTube channel.

We'll see you next time right here on "Lively."

(upbeat bright music)