- If these two hospitals collapse, and that's what we're facing, right now there is no plan.

- The shortage of primary care providers in Rhode Island is absolutely atrocious.

And guys, this is nothing.

Medicaid is going to be cut significantly.

That is going to put further strain, not just on Roger Williams.

- Who'd ever thought you'd be living in a time where government, public safety officials, safety is a key word, are killing civilians.

(light exciting music) - And welcome to this episode of "Lively."

I'm Jim Hummel, joined this week by our political contributor, Pablo Rodriguez, and former Cranston Mayor Allan Fung.

Following the ongoing controversy surrounding the actions of federal immigration officials in Minneapolis the last several weeks, Providence Mayor Brett Smiley, has a message of his own for ICE, "Don't try to operate on city property."

Allan, let me begin with you.

I understand the mayor wants to say something, in reality, I'm not sure what the teeth is gonna be to this executive order.

- And I think that's the big rub, 'cause not only you're seeing Mayor Smiley, a lot of mayors across the country, a lot of legislators across the country, especially coming into an election year with the midterms, are trying to take whatever actions, within their powers, to regulate federal officials.

And this is the rub, you're talking about the federal government, federal law enforcement operating on public property.

You know, we're not sure how much teeth there's gonna be in that.

But the bottom line is, Brett, coming into an election season has a very far Left candidate in David Morales, who is, let's face it, he's got a lot better personality than Brett who can be very cerebral and stiff, you know what I'm talking about, right, there, Pablo?

But bottom line is, he's got to make sure that he gets whatever he can out there also for the election.

He's keeping that in mind.

So it's a delicate balance.

He's doing the best that he can to try to keep Providence away from these federal officials and keep a lot of these individuals as safe as possible.

- And guys, let's be real, we have not seen the numbers yet from Minneapolis, but the cost, the economic cost to the cities on this onslaught of federal agencies.

- 'Cause the businesses don't wanna open, right?

- Nobody wants to open, the kids are not going to school.

People are not calling the police for crimes.

I mean, it really is a terribly disrupting operation.

And the question is, why?

What is the end game?

What are we trying to do?

When you look at the numbers, you realize that most of the people that are getting picked up are not criminals.

- Yeah.

- Are just regular folks that are working, going to work, you know, at a Home Depot parking lot, trying to get some work as opposed to real criminals.

And the interesting part right now is that the judges in Minnesota are saying, "You guys are just completely violating all the orders that we've had for-" - The federal judges.

- The federal judges, for habeas corpus, the people are not receiving any due process.

And you're sending the wrong people out of state to a facility in Texas when in reality they should have never been sent out.

- Well, let's even take a look at our own backyard.

We had that happen in one of our courthouses where, you know, the judge, Judge McBurney was trying to take his intern to school and they stopped him outside of the courthouse and they were going to smash into Judge McBurney's car because they didn't believe what he was saying.

And that this individual who's sitting next to him is his intern, you know?

- Probably the first time a judge ever had somebody, I mean, outside- - Question him, right?

- And he's like, "Hey listen, I'm the judge here, though."

Like, "We don't care," right?

- This is what's kind of a little bit crazy.

We've gone so far off mission because I think during the last elections, a majority of Americans were tired of violent criminals.

They heard the message about we're gonna deport violent criminals.

And to Pablo's point, we're getting to the point where they're talking about, you know, picking up abuelas and kids.

- And kids.

- And putting them into these detention facilities.

So what are we doing here, you know?

- But the problem is that, you know, we don't have an end game.

What we have is an ongoing game, which is you have to, you know, arrest 3,000 people a day.

So they set up the quota.

- It's a quote.

- It's a quota for the officers.

And the officers find themselves, you know, in a bind, saying, "We have to find people."

And how do they do it?

They go down the street, "Hey, you don't look like you belong."

- Well, it's racial profiling.

- Of course.

- And here's what's kind of very crazy about the whole scenario.

Because let's face it, it is a extremely crazy scenario where we are.

Because, you know, I know a couple shows ago, back in the day, we were debating this back and forth, and everyone knows these numbers.

President Obama deported so many.

- 10 million people.

- More people.

- More people.

But the big difference- - Ambush and (indistinct).

- But what's going on now pales to what's going on, you know, in the past.

Because I think the level of cruelty, let's face it, it is the level of cruelty with how some of these law enforcement officers are going to be over and above what they're normally trained to do.

Because let's face this, all law enforcement, and, granted, ICE is different because it's not necessarily criminal, it's civil.

But the tactics that they're using are inhuman at some point.

- And I think it shows they're not well-trained.

They brought, you know, they put ads, we'll pay you a lot of money.

And they got paid.

Let me ask you, from a legal standpoint, 'cause it's usually federal, Trump, state, state, Trump, local in this case.

So in Providence, Brett Smiley's trying to make this statement, you know, "Stay off federal property."

I think the ICE agents are probably gonna do whatever they want to do.

But in Minneapolis, now the judge, we're taping on a Thursday, tomorrow the judge is calling in the acting director of ICE to come in and say, "Why have you not responded to court?"

And I think the administration's thought is, "We're above all this."

How is that gonna play out legally?

- Legally, there are three branches of government and this is how our system sets up.

And the judiciary is meant to be a check on both the legislative and executive branches so that no one branch of government exceeds the power.

That's how the framers of our Constitution set this up.

And those judges can hold individuals in contempt if they are violating court orders, violating their mandates.

So it's gonna be interesting to see how a lot of things play out out in Minnesota, because that's right now is the battleground.

But we're seeing a lot, even in our backyards, it's percolating.

But it's also a time where, you know, you have a lot of civilians out there.

And this is where the difference is between this administration and past administrations.

Who'd ever thought you'd be living in a time where government, public safety officials, safety is a key word, are killing civilians.

That's not the government I grew up in or wanting to live up in.

- And I wonder if this is gonna be the clarion call for, not only for Republicans in Congress who have been hesitant to question the President, but also, I mean, they're talking now as if the midterms are a foregone conclusion.

The only way that most people feel their voice can be heard is maybe not going to a protest, that's going to the ballot box.

- Oh, there's no doubt about it.

And frankly, that's the reason why Trump called the Governor of Minnesota, because he's so- - [Jim] Who'd ever thought that would've happened two weeks ago, right?

- Who'd ever thought, "Oh, you know, he's such a nice guy."

After he told him he was, you know, mentally challenged.

- [Jim] Right, right?

- You know, so he's seeing the polls, he knows that this is a disaster, you know, public relations.

96 orders have been violated, according to the judge.

96 orders that are clear, these people need to be brought back because you sent them to Texas by mistake.

These people should not be incarcerated because they have the right to be here in the United States, and they have a right to due process.

More habeas corpus challenges in the month of January than the entire year of 2025.

That's a problem.

- And here's one of the things, you know, you mentioned the President calling the governor, the mayor, I think that's just his game.

He does not care.

- It's a deflection.

- It's a deflection.

- Right.

- He sat with Mamdani after calling him whatever he called him (indistinct), and then calling him, sitting in, you know, it it a deflection, it's a lot of games that are being played at that federal level, you know, and it's gonna take the courts, it's gonna take, you know, individual citizens, it's gonna take the legislative bodies to kind of really hold 'em in check.

And you hit a great point.

You're even starting to see a lot of Republicans, whether it's on the House or Senate side, calling for investigations of what happened in Minnesota.

- I think from a personal and just a kind of a horror standpoint, seeing what unfolds, but also there are some people up for election, all the House members and then some Senate seats that they're more nervous about their constituents than they are about the President.

The fear factor has shifted a little bit.

Let me ask you, just because you've been in courts, local, state, and federal.

My dealings with the federal court is the federal judges are no nonsense.

Not that the state guys aren't, but when you walk into federal court, it's my way or the highway.

And I can imagine these federal judges having people just basically blow them off.

How that's been going over behind the chambers when they take their robes off, they must be fuming.

- Oh, it does not sit well because everyone understands, especially in a legal fashion, when you're walking into federal court, it's a lock and load docket.

When they say 9:30, you better be there at 9:25 and, you know, set up for that 9:30 argument or even earlier.

- So what happens with this head of ICE operations that's going to talk to the judge tomorrow?

The judge said, "Come here to tell me why I shouldn't declare you on contempt."

What happens then if they say- - Well, I think it's an escalation, I don't think he'll immediately send him off to jail.

But he has to prove why and what he's doing.

And I think the judge will give him a little leeway to say, "Okay, let's remedy this.

Let's answer what I've been asking."

- Yeah.

- And a lot of it is with people incarcerated and not giving them due process, right?

- Yeah, and judges will give individuals a lot of leeway too, take into consideration 'cause that's their job, it's the balance.

And that's why it's the scales.

- Especially federal officials.

- Especially federal officials, absolutely.

But, you know, you have to take this seriously.

- All right, we will see as the week unfolds.

The future of Roger Williams Medical Center and Fatima Hospital look increasingly grim as the financing has still not come together to save the two institutions.

A potential buyer is asking the state to pony up funding, but so far has not secured a commitment.

Pablo, this is right in your wheelhouse, you know, Memorial closed a couple of years ago, now they're on the brink.

And I think the bottom line is then the state gets on the hook, explain the process of where we are with the bankruptcy leading up to now.

- So Centurion, which is the company that is looking to purchase these two hospitals, needs to fund the purchase with bonds that they're trying to sell in the open market.

The problem is that- - No one's buying it!

- No one's buying unless there is a backstop by the state.

And they're asking for $18 million as a backup.

Which, really, in the big scheme of things, it's peanuts.

You know, because the consequences are, according to the deal that Peter Neronha was able to do with the court, the bankruptcy court, and with Centurion, that if by January 15th those bonds were not sold, then you had until January 30th when the hospitals then have to be supported by the state.

That means that Centurion is no longer responsible for any of the liabilities of those two hospitals.

So, you know, it really behooves the state to just put up the $18 million, get this deal done.

- But is that a black hole?

Is that the beginning of a cascade of money?

- It is a black hole in the sense that those hospitals have not received the proper management over the last four or five years.

You know, the facilities are- - So what's gonna change that?

Is it good money after bad?

- It may be good money after bad, but the consequences are- - Too big to fail.

- Too big to fail.

You're going to destroy the system if you don't have another emergency room covering all these visits.

The physicians that are going to leave the state that already are leaving the state, because I've lost a bunch of friends that were working at Roger Williams Hospital at a time when we cannot afford to lose a single physician.

- And you know what's kind of really tragic about the whole thing?

'Cause I see it even worse.

We're in a crisis already with what's going on in our healthcare market.

It's unbelievable.

From the arguments that we've been, how many times have we talked about reimbursement rates?

How many times since, you know, Pawtucket Memorial closed are we talking about emergency rooms, you know, that are just jam-packed and people are being put on- - And Anchor Medical with the primary care physicians.

- Right.

And if these two hospitals collapse, and that's what we're facing, right now there is no plan.

There is no foresight, there's no even legislative commission putting together all of the right individuals to have that honest discussion of what is needed for now, nevermind five years or 10 years down the line.

- And here are the figures, you were talking about it, 500 beds, 50,000 annual emergency room visits, and nearly 2,500 employees between the two, for Rhode Island, those are big numbers.

- Those are big, big numbers.

And again, you know, the shortage of primary care providers in Rhode Island is absolutely atrocious.

And, guys, this is nothing.

Medicaid is going to be cut significantly come 2027.

- [Jim] Under the big tax cut bill last year.

- Under the Big Beautiful Bill, big ugly bill.

And that is going to put further strain, not just on Roger Williams if they survive, but the entire system is going to be really, really in trouble.

- Allan, are these moral obligation bonds?

I'm not in the business, so I think back to 38 Studios, I think back to some of the things that the state has backed.

What is the financial commitment?

We talk about bonds.

Is it, if they can't, are they putting up real money or are they backing, if things start to collapse, then the money will be there.

How does that work?

- Yeah, actually, I'm not sure how this bond deal is structured, but what I do know is that they need the commitment and backing of the state similar to what they were asking on the 38 Studios.

It's not apples to apples- - Just to give the financial markets a little bit of assurance, right?

- Right.

- That there'll be money there if it goes south.

- If there's a backstop, it's there.

- Right.

- You know, because right now, there's no interest.

There really is no interest in what's- - [Jim] They've been trying for a year.

- Correct, yeah.

- Yeah.

Oh yeah.

- Right back the Rhode Island Health and Education Building Corporation that is trying to, you know, through their mechanism, sell these bonds on the market is not having any success on it.

- Pablo, we're one step closer to getting well toward the process of getting a medical school, at URI, there was a legislative commission that recommended.

I think that's no surprise to anybody.

The devil's in the details.

And it would be years down the line.

But good step in your mind?

- Oh, I think it's a fantastic step.

As long as the circumstances around admission are really, really clear.

You know, I love these reports because in essence, you know, you tell the people doing the report, we wanna make sure that this looks like viable, you know.

And they say that in a couple of years, it's gonna be self-sufficient.

I doubt it, highly.

Especially if we turn this medical school into an incubator for local providers.

You can't do that by just charging tuition.

You know what I'm saying?

You have to do what- - But that's an investment that would pay dividends down the line.

- Exactly.

- It's a loss leader, right?

- Exactly.

Exactly.

But you have to be able to tell students, "Listen, this is a public school.

You are not gonna pay any tuition or a very, very reduced tuition in exchange for every year that we support you, that's a year that you're gonna stay in the state."

Just like the public health service.

You know, which has been very, very effective in keeping doctors, you know, engaged in many places.

I hired a couple when I was in practice and it was very helpful to me.

But what I'm saying is that the devil is in the details.

We have to make sure that we're not just supporting a public medical school that is going to produce doctors for other states.

And then we go into the circle of, you know, if I can make 20% more by going to Attleboro- - [Jim] Why wouldn't you?

- Why would I stay in Pawtucket?

- And this is part of the problem 'cause you brought up a great point.

There's always that public component and the public support has to be there year after year from not only just funding, but also maintaining, you know, that campus, maintaining you have the right staff that are there, training the next wave of doctors in state.

And that commitment has to be shown at the state level through government officials.

Because right now we're not seeing that leadership.

And this is what's kind of troubling because it's a great, you know, dream for down the line because let's face it, when we're talking about how far down the line, you're talking about 10 years before the first doctor's gonna get, you know, coming outta that school and ready to practice- - And ready to go, yes.

- You taught at Brown for years.

How many stayed in Rhode Island?

Roughly, percentage.

10%?

20%?

- One.

- One?

- Of the medical school last year that graduated.

- [Jim] Out of how many?

- Out of 135.

- Oh my goodness!

Yes, 'cause what's the incentive, right?

- There's no incentive.

And that's just the medical students, you know, when you look at the residencies, you know, it's even worse.

- Just to tie a bow on this, going back to the Roger Williams and Fatima, what do you see happening over the next month?

- I think the state is going to put up the $18 million.

- [Jim] Because it's short money on a 14, $15 billion budget, right?

- Absolutely.

And, you know, the fund that Neronha was able to gather, it was $80 million, only $40 million are left.

So they're gonna run outta money if they don't get this deal done.

And then they're gonna have to go to the legislature and say, "Give us the money to operate these hospitals."

- Okay, we are turning the corner into February.

The governor's race, Governor McKee, Helena Foulkes, she brought in a lot of money.

We just had the reporting for the last quarter.

We'll see whether McKee can keep pace on that, the numbers are still dribbling in.

We're still waiting for Speaker Shekarchi to make a decision.

And, well, the absolute deadline is those three days in June.

I think he's gonna make the decision before that.

Are you surprised he hasn't pulled the trigger yet or not so surprised?

- You have to pull the trigger because- - Gotta get it going.

- You're running outta time.

And you are in a primary, we're not talking about the election in November.

- It's September, yeah.

- It's September.

And you've got a short runway.

He's sitting on over $4 million right now.

Start spending that now!

- He's gotta introduce himself, right?

- [Allan] He's gotta introduce himself.

- And that's what the poll, the latest poll showed.

People don't even know who he is.

You know, in his district and in the state House, and the lobbyist, everybody knows him of course, but the regular Joe in the street does not know, you know, Shekarchi.

- And it's not as fatal because, remember, it's a primary, it's a lot more of an insider game with the unions, you know, getting out that Democratic base of- - [Jim] You're trying to out-Democrat the other one.

- Right.

Exactly.

- Exactly.

- But you still have to spend those money.

- Absolutely.

And it's gonna be very difficult, you know, for him to run against the governor because they will be siphoning votes from the same kind of group of people.

So I think he wants to make sure that he is the one who wins.

And the only way he is assured possibly is if the governor just- - And we just don't see that.

Well, look, I think everybody would like a sure thing.

He probably wants a sure thing.

And probably thought with the poll numbers that we've all seen, now, the New Hampshire poll is gonna show the governor a lot in worse shape than I think his internal polls are.

But the Washington Bridge is still a big brick around his neck.

And he's got an opponent, even if Joe Shekarchi doesn't get in, who seems to have unlimited funds too, Helena Foulkes has got deep, deep pockets, and is raising a lot in addition to that.

- You're starting to see her build her team and start bleeding those shots out there.

You know, bleeding is the wrong term, but I mean, taking those shots, causing little nicks, you know, and cuts on the governor and telling her story on top of it as to what she hopes to do, what she's gonna be to the counter of Dan McKee.

And so long as she kind of keeps staying with her playbook, that's what Joe Shekarchi, when he gets in, I still think Joe will get into the race, the speaker will get into the race, but he's gotta get in there sooner rather than later so that people get to know him.

But he also is engaged in that fight.

- Oh, I just wanna make sure, I have contributed to the campaign of Helena Foulkes, so.

- That's a disclosure.

- A disclosure.

- Weren't we just talking about Nellie Gorbea?

Isn't that just yesterday?

- Yes, we were.

Yes, we were.

- Four years ago.

- So you support her.

- Yes.

- What do you see her path?

What's the message gonna be other than, I mean, I think there's been some self-inflicted wounds by Dan McKee, but at the end of the day, if labor is sticking with him, and that's a big if, how is she gonna distinguish herself?

- It's all about competence.

You know, when you're running against McKee, that's what's gonna be, you know, any candidate running against McKee is going to be running on competence.

The governor has really not showed great competence in managing, you know, the crisis that has presented with the bridge and others.

And with DOT, I mean, come on, you know, just shake up the place, that alone would've given him some support.

Right now, people just drive every day and the first thing that comes to their head is that, "That governor."

- But that almost seems like a no-win situation 'cause if you do pop Peter Alviti, the director of DOT now, people will say, "Why didn't you do it?"

Is it a political move or whatever, through the politician's eyes, it seems like the governor can't win no matter what he does, right?

- No.

Strong, decisive leaders take those actions regardless of the timeframe that you're in.

- You did.

- Yeah, you have to.

You really have to.

You face those situations head on, whether it's now or even a few days later, or even if it's later, and you get the facts, take decisive action.

That's what the residents of Rhode Island, that's what people in general want to see from their elected officials.

You know, true leadership, we can always second guess, 'cause politics, there's always a lot of, just like sports, there's always a lot of people that are commentators on the sidelines.

You have a lot more, you know, of that going on, especially with social media.

But you're in the game, and I don't care if he takes it now, took it, you know, two months ago or a year ago, take that decisive action.

- Just like Bruce Sundlun.

Bruce Sundlun was that type of leader that said, "Damn the torpedoes, this is what we gotta do."

- Well, and the legacy that us old-time Rhode Islanders remember is the airport, remember Ed DiPrete was gonna put $200,000 in and Sundlun said, "Forget it, we need an airport, when people arrive, they're gonna say, 'Wow.'"

- That's right.

- I don't think he envisioned the great bathrooms we have there now, do you think?

- Oh, it's amazing.

- You can imagine (indistinct).

- I love the marble!

- The number one airport in the country.

- 'Cause of the bathrooms.

- Because of the bathrooms.

- All right, let's do this.

Let's go to outrages and/or kudos.

Doctor, what do you have this week?

- My outrage is the head of the FBI Kash Patel, who goes on television to say that, "You can't bring guns to a peaceful protest."

- Kyle Rittenhouse didn't get that memo apparently.

- That's exactly right.

Not just that.

Two days later he goes to Fox when the National Rifle Association beat him over the head and says, "No, you can bring your weapon.

Just be reasonable."

So, Mr.

Preddy was not reasonable when five people were beating him up- - [Jim] Never showed the gun.

- Never shot a gun, and shot him in the back.

Come on.

- Yeah, yeah, I wonder, too, though, and that's where social media comes in, because you see, look, we all scroll and they have all of the, and it goes on both sides, but I've seen interviews with Pete Hegseth, the Department of Defense War, whatever you wanna call it, and from two years ago, Kash Patel, and I think people see through that kinda like, "Look, you're talking outta both sides of your mouth, right?"

- Absolutely.

- Yeah.

What do you have?

- Well, we've talked a lot about some weighty topics on our show, but I want to dial it back a little bit.

- [Jim] All right.

- You know, 'cause one outrage that just hit, and it hasn't been publicly announced yet, Bill Belichick not making the Hall of Fame on the first ballot.

Ridiculous!

There should be an investigation of that.

- Absolutely.

Absolutely.

- Well, I think also now the word's coming up, they vote in secret.

And who are these voters?

The 50 people.

Some are retired sports writers, and what I've heard- - That's the problem.

Writers, come on!

- Yeah, there we go.

I've heard from some people who said these guys didn't like him because of the way he treated them when he was, I mean, come on, you gotta rise above that.

- Exactly.

- Absolutely, I'm calling Kash Patel.

(both laughing) - But with Belichick, if you look at him, I mean, Brady's coming to his defense and Robert Kraft and they had, I mean, not surprisingly, but they had a little bit of a rift at the end.

I think most people put that aside and they say, "If anybody's gonna get in on the first ballot."

- Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

'Cause if he doesn't get in, what's Brady gonna do on the first ballot?

'Cause when he had (instinct), are you gonna hold him back too?

- [Jim] I also think it stains the Hall of Fame, don't you?

- Oh, it does, it does.

- The reputation.

- But that's the problem.

There's politics in everything.

- There is.

There is, unfortunately.

- It's true.

- And you know, they may be jealous because of his girlfriend.

- Yeah.

That's it.

- A whole nother show.

- Or the message, you treat the press a little bit better instead of like- - Yeah, Grumpy Gus.

- Grumpy Gus, exactly.

- All right, Pablo and Allan, thank you for joining us and we thank you for joining us.

Be sure and check us out on Facebook, X, Instagram, and on the Ocean State Media YouTube channel.

We'll see you next time here on "Lively."

(light exciting music) - [Announcer] "Lively" is generously supported in part by John Hazen White's "Lookout."