- [Jim] When Rhode Island students return to school in the fall, they will have to put their cellphones away.

- Kids should not have access to their phones because they need to concentrate and they're already distracted by 100 other things.

- The school cellphone ban is, like, just one sliver of this much larger problem, and it's unchecked.

- When you heard that Director Alviti was resigning, you thought what?

- Well, I didn't think, I did a little dance... (Don laughing) So I mean, it's a long, long, long time coming.

(upbeat orchestral music) - And welcome to this episode of "Lively," I'm Jim Hummel, thank you for joining us, this week, we have our political attributor Don Roach and Paige Parks, executive director of Rhode Island KIDS COUNT.

DOT Director Peter Alviti calls it quits, House Speaker Joe Shekarchi passes on a run for governor and the general assembly session is just getting into second gear, what a week this has been, Don, let's begin with you.

When you heard that Director Alviti was resigning, you thought what?

- Well, I didn't think, I did a little dance... (Don laughing) So, I mean, it's a long, long, long time coming, it's way, way overdue, I think the governor had to do it, there's no way he can win reelection if Alviti was still in his seat, so it's just about time.

- [Jim] What about you, Paige?

- Well, wishing him well, of course, in whatever his next steps will be, but my first thought was about RIPTA, 'cause we know the director of RIDA serves as the chair of RIPTA, and so, my hope is that whoever comes into that role has a really strong support and understanding of public transportation because RIPTA needs a lot of help and support, and we know that that director of DOT is an important role of that, so that was my first thought.

- And that's been the criticism from a lot of the people who say he's building roads and bridges, but we're not thinking about alternate forms of transportation, so... And that was the big criticism, right?

- And we need to take care of... Make sure our public transportation system is well-supported and that the whole system of transportation, which includes public transportation, is accessible to all of Rhode Island, so yeah.

- I mean, RIPTA has been poor for decades, and I know they reduced services, I think, late last year, and Rhode Island, if we want to be a place where businesses come, we have to have a strong public transportation system and we have the opposite of that, and we're still going backwards, so to me, I have no confidence that whoever comes in is gonna be able to change RIPTA because I've been waiting for, you know, 20, 30 years to see a change, but that's definitely something, if the governor was able to do or put together some support in that space, could have Rhode Islanders think, "Okay, maybe this governor is trying to do something and should be elected for a third..." Quote-unquote, "Third term."

- Yeah, we've gotta figure out public transportation, I think we agree on that, I mean, businesses are... Need a good, reliable public transportation system so employees can get to work, our kids need a good system to be able to get to school and their families to be able to get to and from appointments, so we need a good system, absolutely.

- Yeah, I worked in Boston for almost 20 years and I took the train, you know, from either Providence, or TF Green, or South Attleboro, and their public transportation system is light-years ahead of ours, and most of us commuters still complained about that, but you could get into work from different parts of the area, whereas in Rhode Island, it's just not... It's not possible.

- You know, I also thought... So this year, the governor has fully funded RIPTA, that was the battle last year, but it's interesting, the dynamic that the head of the DOT is also the chairman of the board of RIPTA, and I wonder if structurally, that might be a problem 'cause it seemed like they were working at cross purposes a lot of the times.

- Yeah, I don't think I can speak to the actual... If it's a problem with the structure versus how do we look at transportation as a whole and for everyone, and so, I think if that is the intention, that there is a connection between public transit and the other aspects of transportation, and that's an intentional connection, I don't think it has to be a conflict, but you have to have people in those roles that understands full systems and are committed to making sure that every Rhode Islander has access.

- And I wonder if that was the problem with Alviti is that did he understand the whole structure?

Because I feel like the DOT budget increased a lot under his leadership, he was a good salesman... - [Jim] And with an infusion of federal money.

- Exactly, but he wasn't good at actually administrating the duties of the DOT, and so, we need somebody in there who is a good administrator, knows how to build infrastructure, we'll have a focus on RIPTA, but again, as I've said many times on this show, if we can make a good decision in Rhode Island, we'll make the other decision.

- (laughs) Yeah, go the other way, you know what's interesting, though?

'Cause we'll see, 'cause we're leading up... And this leads up into the political discussion because we've been talking about will the speaker run, will he not?

So now, it's down to Governor McKee and Helena Foulkes running against each other, first of all, let me ask you, were you surprised that Joe Shekarchi did not run or did you expect that?

- I was a little surprised, but in a way happy because the way... The reason I was happy, even though I am a Republican, was his reasoning for not running, which definitely seemed, to me, heartfelt, and he's got more money than both of them... - [Jim] Four million dollars.

Exactly, but I feel like that's the kinda person we want to run, we want to have that kind of a person who's not necessarily looking for, you know, all of the fame, notoriety, power, so... And in that regard, I was a little disappointed, but I can completely understand why he decided not to run.

- Well, Speaker Shekarchi can make his own decisions for what's best for him, I know he's been a really strong champion for kids and families, I'm so happy that he's going to continue on in his role as the Speaker, and continuing to partner and making sure that kids and families have what they need, so his decision is his decision, but I think what's most important is that whoever is running for governor, that they clearly articulate how they are going to support and protect kids and families, and how are they going to use their office of the governor and the power of proposing a budget to ensure that we have access to childcare, affordable, high-quality childcare, that our K-through-12 public education system is supported, how are we addressing child poverty and ensuring that programs like the Rhode Island Works program is strongly supported, that our policies are getting us closer and closer to ensuring that families are able to get family-economic sustaining jobs, there's so many things that the governor's office needs to focus on and look at, and for both candidates, we're looking forward to seeing what their commitment is to kids and families.

- First blush on the... We haven't had you since the budget was proposed, we're at $15 billion now, any thoughts on that?

- I think there's a $800,000 deficit, if I'm reading the numbers correctly, but to be honest with you, when I was just kind of reading through and seeing about the budget this year, I'm glad we're not talking about pensions anymore, so for me, in my lifetime, that was the biggest concern 15, 20 years ago.

- Going back to Gina Raimondo when she was first the Treasurer more than a decade ago.

- And, you know, for me, I'm happy to not be talking about billions of dollars in deficits, but a potential half-a-billion-dollar deficit in 2031, so I feel like Rhode Island, and I have to give credit where credit's due, our past governors, they've been able to right the ship in some of the ways where our current budget constraints and challenges feel, like... Considerably more reasonable than 15, 20 years ago.

- Your first blush, the budget?

- So Rhode Island KIDS COUNT is doing an analysis of the governor's proposed budget, so our final analysis will be out soon... (indistinct) But we're really happy to see that the governor's proposed budget includes a permanent state child tax credit, this is a really important proposal, it's in 17 other states have been implementing child tax credit... - And probably a first step 'cause it's not that much, but you would kinda wanna gradually work up, right?

- It's a first step, yes, and Representative Tanzi and Senator Vargas also have their proposals, which includes establishing a state child tax credit but at a higher rate, so between the governor's budget proposal and what's been introduced in the general assembly, I'm feeling really, really great, we strongly support those proposals that can have a really great impact helping to reduce child poverty, increasing family economic stability, decreasing child maltreatment, so that's a great proposal, so so happy to see that in the budget, and then, of course, we also know the governor's budget includes a millionaires tax, which Rhode Island KIDS COUNT and RIght from the Start campaign have been in support of, you know, there's also other proposals that have been introduced by Representative Karen Alzate and Senator Melissa Murray, great proposals, we need that, we need that funding, with cuts coming from the federal level, there are some real needs that our kids and families have and these federal cuts are going to greatly impact basic needs like food, housing, childcare, K-through-12 education system, we need to find a way to fill those holes so I'm glad the governors proposed budget includes a way of making sure that our most vulnerable kids and families can have the resources that they need.

- I definitely agree with Paige that the federal government is definitely impacting kind of, like, more vulnerable communities, but where I think I diverge is I'm not a fan of the millionaire tax, I think it's gonna take Rhode Island from, like, the... Like, taxing millionaires at the 15th highest level to the eighth highest level, we're already losing the battle from a business perspective with Massachusetts and Connecticut, and this just feels like another step in the wrong direction in terms of inviting people here who can help the economy, we're... I feel like we're making it harder for them, even though the challenges are real, and I'd love to find more creative ways to address those problems than we just tax the people who have... Who are making the most money.

- And you've read the report from the Rhode Island Public Expenditures Council, which now has doubled down and said, "We don't have a revenue problem, it's a spending problem," and this might be a one-time gimmick 'cause if you go to the well, then what are you gonna do with next year's deficit?

How...?

What do you think about that?

- Well, listen, there's no gimmick, so kids and families are in desperate need right now, and we have a hole in our budget created by a decrease in federal support that we need to fill if we want kids to be able to have food and we want them to have reliable childcare, we want our school systems to be good, I mean, we just talked about public transportation, right?

And businesses want a good, reliable public transportation, how are we gonna pay for that?

So we can tell starving kids, "Sorry, millionaires wanna hold onto their money, good luck," or we can figure out how are we going to fill this hole that... It's a very strong need, millionaires want there to be a good K-through-12 public school system too, they want... All the things that we need require dollars and infrastructure so that Rhode Island is a place where you can have employees, raise a family, where kids supported and safe, and that costs money, so their proposal is just asking millionaires to pay their fair share.

- And so, do you feel like millionaires are not paying their fair share?

'Cause I feel like, going from... The percentage's increasing I think 3% or almost 4%, almost to pay double in income tax feels... That doesn't feel fair, I don't think we would ask any population across the state to pay double, and to Jim's point in terms of... It's not a gimmick, but you're not gonna do the same thing next year to close the gap, and so, where do you stop and how do you build the infrastructure so that you can afford all of the things that we need to afford, like you said, with the vulnerable communities?

- Well, our low-income families do pay a quite significant amount of tax, both on their income and on sales tax, we know that sales tax more impacts our low-income communities than the higher-income communities, so when we say, "Pay their fair share," it's also about we have to make sure that everyone is paying into the systems that we support, and right now, lower-income people are paying a higher percentage because of all the different elements of taxes than the most wealthy, and you also have to incorporate the different breaks that the higher-income earners will be getting at the federal level that our lower-income folks are not getting.

- [Jim] With the recent tax cut belt, final thought on that?

- You know, I worry long-term that our reliance upon higher-income workers and not looking at spending in different areas is going to just lead us to a place where we just won't be able to afford programs that do really help the vulnerable communities.

- All right, so that is a conversation we're gonna continue as the session continues.

When Rhode Island students return to school in the fall, they will have to put their cellphones away.

How that will look depends on what district they're in, but advocates for a phone ban say it will be a game-changer as it has been in other places.

Both of you have kids younger than mine in the wheelhouse of social media, so were you lobbying for that cellphone ban when you...?

I mean, not lobbying, but were you in favor of that when it...?

When they were talking about it last year?

- Yeah, so we know that cellphones definitely have an impact on teaching and learning in the classroom, the Hassenfeld Child Health Innovation Institute at Brown University has done some work around that, and we're really happy to partner with them on this work, and what they have found is that kids are getting smartphones, they're getting tablets much earlier and younger, and it does create some challenges, now, there are some benefits to having access to some of these tools as well, but in the classroom, it can be a major distraction, so we are hoping that the school districts, as they are creating their policy, so they have until the fall of 2026 to come up with what their policy will be, that those policies are developed also with students and parents in mind so that the policies that are coming out are not just about controlling kids or somehow ends up becoming a disciplinary issue, but actually is addressing what the challenges are, 'cause kids don't wanna be distracted in school either, I mean, they get just as annoyed, they might not admit it, but we know from focus groups, conversations with young people, they also can see that it's a problem.

- Yeah, I think kids can see that it's a problem, but I think the majority of kids like having their phones and access to their phones, I feel like if I think about my own kids and their social media, particularly, one of my kids who... He built, like, a Discord community of over 2,000 people and he was on that 24/7... - He was the mayor of Discord.

(laughs) - Right, right, and... But he also faced a lot of bullying, you know, just a lot of different things that me, I didn't face, you know, when I was a kid back in the '80s and '90s, so... But I feel like in schools, if it's during instructional time, I feel like kids should not have access to their phones because they need to concentrate and they're already distracted by 100 other things, they don't need a phone, but if it's non-instructional time, to me, I feel like I'm okay, and recess, and I haven't looked at what recess looks like, but I remember when my kids were in school, recess wasn't what it was for me, they had, like, 20 minutes when I remember recess being 40, 45 minutes, you can play... - And you go out and run around, and yeah.

- Yeah, and so, I just feel like kids don't have as much playtime as when I was a kid and playing together, and I'd like to see more of that, but I don't think phones are necessarily... Phones are a distraction, but they also provide a lot of other tools and... But at the same time, you know, speaking to some of the helicopter parents, you know, who like to be in contact with their kids all of the time, you know, this may impact them even more than the kids.

- Well, there's definitely... There's the... Those phones are filling a need, right?

So there's some that's very real and logistical, how do parents contact their kids?

How do kids contact parents?

"I'm gonna stay after school today," "Can I get a ride," right?

There's some, like, logistical pieces of it, there's also... Phones provide connection, provide community, especially if there's kids who may be isolated or are trying to figure out their own identity, we heard from a lot of LGBTQ kids that say, like, "I found supportive community through access of social media," so there are some important roles, kids sometimes are learning their news and getting information through access, I mean, you gotta be careful with that, of course, but they're able to see the world where they might not have access without some kind of device, so there's... I think the quality of what they're looking at matters, how they're looking at it, how often are they looking at it, and is it supplemented with actual real-world experiences to build on what they may be... The positives that can come out.

- Yeah, Steph Machado, who is a panelist here, works for the Boston Globe, did a piece for Rhode Island PBS Weekly a couple of years ago about... She looked at Central Falls and they got the pouches, so it goes in, you can't have it all day long, she went to another district, I think it was Lincoln, where they said, "Look, we gotta teach our kids responsibility, that, you know, eventually, when they leave us, like, when you go to college, you think you got a lot of time 'cause nobody's telling you what to do, you gotta learn how to manage your time, same thing with the phones, that when we tell you you can't use your phone, there will be consequences if you do," and so, there was a teaching moment, so I think that's why the legislature gave the districts at least a year to let it breathe, but I can't imagine being... You guys have... Your kids are a little bit older, but you have teenagers, just what it's like in the social media age now and with cellphones, there's just... It's a lot different than we were growing up.

- A lot different than we were growing up, and also, I forget, like, parents are also on social media too, so it's not just the kids who are attached to devices, parents are as well, and we also just can't forget or excuse the actual social media companies who are embedding into their programs and platforms algorithms and different tools that keep people addicted to it as well, so the school cellphone ban is, like, just one sliver of this much larger problem where people are profiting off of tools that sometimes are positive, but oftentimes are negative, and it's unchecked.

- And so much so that Spain and Greece this week are joining Australia, Australia's really the first one to say they wanna ban social media, and have for anyone under 16, Spain and Greece are now talking about that, of course, Elon Musk, it gives him an aneurysm thinking about it, but what do you think about that?

Could that work in the United States?

- At this point, I don't think so because kids are so interconnected, like, my kids are on, like, Snapchat, Instagram, TikTok, that's how they communicate with their friends, they meet new people that way, so the world has become a lot smaller as a result of all of social media, and I think that's a good thing, and to Paige's point, especially people who are trying to, like, figure out themselves and find communities like them, when I was younger, anyone who was on the margins, they were just on the margins and that was it, you know, they didn't have a way to access people who could be like them, and I think that is some of the positive things, but for me, as an old Facebook user, when I'm trying to get in touch with my kids and I'm texting them, and they're not even responding to texts, but if I send them a snap, they respond back, like, in 30 seconds, I'm just, like, confused, and so, I feel like a lot of these policies, the best policies will be policies where the administrators and the students come together and build them together, 'cause then, you're telling the kids, like, "Look, your voice is important in this process and we want you to be at the table," oftentimes, we're just making decisions, you know, we're parents, we're... - Not from the top down, from the ground up.

- Yep, absolutely, I totally agree with you that we need to have students at the table, parents at the table to help... To figure out how we're gonna make this... These bans work, and also, kids are super savvy, they already know what the next thing is, it takes a while before adults even figure out what it is, so if we don't have kids at the table who are informing how the policy should work, the policy's gonna be outdated before it ever even hits the paper.

- What about a social media ban for under 16-year-olds in the United States?

Do you think it'll ever come here?

- As long as we have a lot of money behind the social media companies and they have so much influence, no, I don't think so, unfortunately, I think that we need to get to a point where we understand the science of how the social media is impacting kids, we need to... And we just know anecdotally and it's beginning to see some research about the outcomes of it, but as we are understanding more, we need to keep a close eye on that, and there has to be public will to protect our kids, otherwise, the profits of the companies will.

- And I don't know how you enforce that too, you know, that's the... - When you sign up for Facebook, you're supposed to be, whatever, 13, and you got five-year-olds saying, "Oh, yeah, my birthday was..." So how do you figure that out?

- Our dogs have Facebook accounts too.

- There you go.

That is true.

(people laughing) I wonder if we should ban dogs under 13, yeah.

- I know, I do enjoy those.

- But as long as they're, like, three in human years, aren't they, like, 21 in dog years?

- Yeah, there you go, no dog under the age of four, right?

It was funny, when I... When our kids... Of course, I'm older, and when our twins were lobbying for cellphones, we put 'em off until they were in seventh and eighth-grade, and my daughter said, "Well, you know, Dad, it's a safety thing and you'll be able to get a hold of me all the time," I could never get ahold of her, she never answered her phone, right?

So when you call... And it's funny, this... - Oh, you can't call, Jim, you gotta text.

- Well, then I would text and she wouldn't answer my text!

But it's funny in this day and age that it's just... My wife says this all the time, she has a young person who works at her office and she said, "Have you ever thought of just picking up the phone and calling somebody?"

The thought of that is, like, "No," 'cause there's a level of separation, right?

- I mean, I still call people, I'd much rather call than text just because, you know, I am old enough not to be too old, but not young enough to be hip, and so, for me, picking up the phone and calling is... - You can take solace that you'll... I'll always be older than you and Paige will always be hipper than you, what do you think?

So you're right in the sandwich, you were telling me before we came on, you had some stats about tablets and how early kids were getting on them that was mind-blowing.

- So the Hassenfeld Child Health Innovation Institute did a presentation, and children, by the time they are age two, 40% have a tablet.

- [Jim] Wow.

- 40% by the time they're age two.

- [Jim] Did that surprise you when you saw it?

- Yes, very surprising, I think kids getting tablets, it's... They're getting younger and younger, and the tablets are being used for different reasons like childcare, right?

So people have kids on their phones sometimes for education... Or on their tablets for educational purposes, and sometimes, it's to help occupy a kid, so there... It's very challenging right now.

- As I hear you say that, I think about, like, 50, 60 years ago, how people were talking about TVs, and cartoons on TV... - My mom would do that, it would be... I told somebody, "Oh, my..." I'm dating myself, I would tell people my mom's favorite show is "Captain Kangaroo," and they'd be like, "What are you talking about?"

Well, I saw her getting so excited because it gave her a half-hour, I'd sit in front of the TV, "Hey, let's watch 'Captain Kangaroo!'"

And then, she could go do what she was doing, so it's a... It's just a generational difference, now, it's a tablet.

- Exactly, and so, there's always gonna be something, 40, 50 years from now, it's gonna be something else, and tablets and smartphones are gonna be, like, just part of the DNA, you know?

I wish sometimes, I could get my kids to, like, sit down and watch a movie with me, they're glued to their interactive tablets, 'cause they're not just watching, they're interacting with people, and so, I do like that.

- Some other research that might be surprising, one in five high-schoolers report that they have had or they know someone who has had an AI romantic relationship... - [Jim] Oh, my goodness, that's a whole 'nother... - So that's also very different.

- [Jim] Well, we will leave it at that.

- Think about that this coming Valentine's Day.

- All right, we will... Yeah, we will leave it at that.

Okay, let's end the show with either outrages or kudos, Don, what do you have this week?

- I have an outrage, and I may be a week or so late, but it's still relevant, just ICE, Minnesota, killing people that, to me, should not need... They don't need to be killed, should they...?

Should the folks have done what they were doing?

You know, they can protest, protest is fine, and the gentleman, he had a license to carry, also fine, but they shouldn't have had to die for what they were doing, and I feel like we're in an environment, we're in a shoot-first-ask-questions-later, and I'm horrified and angered by our administration's response to those deaths and killings as if people's lives don't matter, so that's what I'm outraged about this week.

- [Jim] Yeah, we could do a whole show on that, Paige, what do you have?

- It actually relates to my kudos, which is I wanna give kudos to all the folks who came out last week to express their outrage also with what's happening with immigration enforcement and kudos to all the young people who were there, all of our social change and social justice movements across the history of this country have started with, and been led by and through young people, and so, I was so happy to see so many of our young people out there last week.

- And I think you're gonna continue to see that as it goes, all right, Paige and Don, great to see you, we appreciate you stopping by, and thank you for joining us, be sure and check us out on Facebook, X, Instagram, and on the Ocean State Media YouTube channel, we'll see you here next time on "Lively."

(upbeat orchestral music) (upbeat orchestral music continues) (upbeat orchestral music continues) (upbeat orchestral music continues) - [Narrator] "Lively" is generously supported in part by John Hazen White's Lookout.