- You have a division in this party that is, it's not even 50-50.

The tidal wave is, everybody wants McKee the hell out of here.

- Having these uncontested races really gives these legislators a free pass.

- And it's all a gimmick.

It's a game.

It's not necessarily, "All right, let's get everybody together.

Whose vision is gonna take us forward the best?"

- $30 million to do some of the infrastructure, the pedestrian bridge.

I think the real linchpin on this is the housing.

You put all the money in the stadium.

The housing, which we need, is way down the line.

- We have to go and put as much effort in as we can to make it work because now we're in.

(invigorating music) - And welcome in to this episode of "Lively."

I'm Jim Hummel, joined this week by Bill Bartholomew, founder of the "Bartholomewtown" Podcast, and our political contributor, Billy Hunt.

Pawtucket officials announced this week they have secured funding for the next phase of Tidewater Landing, the years-in-the-making development along the Seekonk River that started with the soccer stadium and eventually will lead to housing and retail.

Bill, let me begin with you.

The deal with this was they front-loaded all the money on the stadium.

This was the original plan, housing, retail, pedestrian bridge.

So we're getting there, but it's been incremental.

- Right, I remember sitting here, it must have been three or four years ago, and talking about how important it was to make sure Rhode Islanders stay on top of this project to make sure that the so-called B-side actually goes in.

And when you talk about the TIF, the tax incremental financing, that really is at the heart of how this deal is gonna make sense as a fiscal vehicle, yeah, this is critical, the housing component, the retail component.

And I think more than anything right now, it's a little bit of a vibe test on the entire project because while it was a great first season, a great first season in Pawtucket for the football club up there, and there's more and more events happening, ticket sales are way down this year, all right.

And they needed that little bit of injection to say, "This was the right move to put this stadium here."

- Yeah, I mean, Bill's exactly right.

The shine is off the rose or however the- - The bloom was off the rose.

- The bloom is off the rose, there you go, on the stadium and the newness of it and everything like that.

And the TIF district, to your point, is reliant on this infrastructure, which is supposed to be part of the original deal.

And the entire cost of the project is now doubled for the debt service and everything like that.

And now we're gonna go borrow another 30 million from the infrastructure bank.

And now the infrastructure bank, as we know, is a revolving loan fund, so this is actually taking money away from other projects in the state, in the city of Pawtucket, that could be potentially be used.

And that's the same problem with the TIF zone, is that you have this area around the stadium itself that's going ahead and pulling money away from the other services that are needed in the city of Pawtucket.

I know they have school issues.

They got police and fire issues.

I work in Pawtucket.

There's, you know, the roads, and downtown isn't necessarily in the best condition.

So it'll be interesting to see how this works out and what the future is for the attendance and how profitable the stadium is in general.

- We got a lot of acronyms flying around.

The tax incremental financing, the thought is, is that when you build, you're gonna have all of this business around, and that's gonna generate tax revenue that's ultimately gonna pay, but you need all of that in order to refill the coffers.

- [Bill B.]

Yeah, you need the money coming in.

That's the problem.

- Right.

- Look, stadia, taxpayer-funded stadia, are typically not great investments when you look across the country, right, whether it's the National Football League or the USL, whatever it is.

So there's a lot of questions about this, rightfully so.

Rhode Islanders have every right to scrutinize this.

You can still wear a hat with Rhode Island FC, cheer on the team, go see a show there, want it to do well, and also be someone who takes some scrutiny to this project.

And we're still not out of the woods yet.

We're not even close.

- Yeah, and I mean, it's really turning into kind of a white elephant, where you are going ahead and spending a ton of money just to keep the infrastructure in the stadium afloat, and then you're not... You know, it's costing the city and the state more money on the backend.

So, yeah, it's definitely something that needs to be kept an eye on, and I think this was the fear when the first proposal was made for the soccer stadium that we didn't necessarily get everything that we were promised in the beginning.

And now we're playing catch-up, and everything seems to be costing more than what it originally- - So the news peg is, is this what you would refer to the infrastructure bank, it's money that the state makes available, $30 million, to do some of the infrastructure, the pedestrian bridge.

I think the real linchpin on this is the housing.

We need housing, we need housing.

It looks like the housing's gonna be... And this is what we were concerned about.

You put all the money into the stadium.

The housing, which we need, is way down the line.

- Yeah, I lived in Brooklyn when the Barclays Center project was going in, similar story.

"Well, we're gonna get all this housing.

There's gonna be all these things."

And you know, the first tip-off occurred for the Brooklyn Nets, and there was no housing, and the seasons went on, and the years went on.

These things take forever.

Look, it's a gimmick.

It's a way for... At the end of the day, what business... If you and I wanted to start a broadcast company this afternoon, we'd have to open up our own facility.

We'd have to buy our own materials.

We'd have to do everything ourselves.

Yet, in this space, for some reason, we've decided that TIF, that the financing vehicle, is worth it.

And that's why we find ourselves in this area right now where we don't really know if this thing's gonna pan out, but we have to go and put as much effort in as we can to make it work because now we're in.

- Yep, I mean, we seem to be socializing the risk and privatizing the profits on this type of thing.

I mean, and that's really the issue that we have with a lot of projects in the state of Rhode Island, is that, you know, certain interest groups, certain winners and losers are chosen, and then the taxpayers are the ones that ultimately have to pay for it.

And you know, I mean, not only the opportunity cost of losing that money from the infrastructure bank to be used for other projects, but just in municipal budgeting, the debt service on that is gonna be borne by the city and gonna be an additional cost.

So, you know, again, like going back to the point that this is just a money drain that seems to be... You know, the bloom is coming off the rose, as you said.

It's definitely not what we were promised in the beginning.

- I wonder, there was a lot of sentimental value around the Paw Sox, whether we dodged a bullet because you look at Worcester, and it's what you talked about, shiny new stadium.

I've been up a couple of times, but are you gonna fill those seats enough to make it work financially?

- We went to a Red Sox games instead of going to the Worcester stadium just because it's, you know, six one way, half dozen the other.

We might as well go see the real deal.

And so I haven't been up to the stadium yet since they've left, and, you know, from what I hear, it's the same thing.

The development around the stadium isn't quite there.

It's not as nice of an area as it was promised to be, and it's definitely... You know, this is a common trend between all financed stadiums.

This is something that we knew about.

Economists told us about this.

These were all the arguments that were made, and now those chickens are coming home to roost.

- Yeah, and I think it's important as well that it's noted, look, if you're a professional soccer player, even a semi-professional soccer player, you're an amazing athlete.

You've dedicated your life to your sport, and that's very rare to be able to accomplish that.

At the same time, you know, when you talk about the USL, the league that is happening and that is playing in Pawtucket that the Rhode Island FC is a part of, I don't know, think of... You go to a URI game.

You got Jimmy Baron Jr.

back in the day, right?

- Right.

- Good player.

Oh my God, he's playing Division I college basketball.

That's amazing, except for, he goes to play pro in, I don't know, the second division in Turkey.

You know what I mean?

That's weak on Pawtucket.

Make no mistake about it, when you're watching the World Cup, the distance between what's happening in Pawtucket and the top tier is so far that it's also something to be concerned about as soccer grows in popularity in the country and perhaps more players start playing in the MLS, or people start paying more attention to international soccer.

This is gonna be even more and more what it actually is, which is minor league.

- But I also think there's a price point, too, situation.

I remember, you know, the concessions are pretty expensive.

Like, right, if you're gonna take your kids, and all of a sudden it adds up.

Plus, the parking situation.

I don't think they really fully thought that through.

Now, they are gonna bring in some concerts, and you guys are URI alums.

They're gonna be playing there in the fall, so I think that helps, but that's kind of a one-off for the season.

You need consistent revenue from more than soccer to make this work.

- I mean, there's six months out of the year where it's too cold to be doing much of anything in the stadium, so it's a limited time period.

And you know, I work right by the stadium.

I drive by there a lot.

There's not a ton of activity on a regular basis that you're seeing beyond the soccer games and, you know, the upcoming football games.

And is that enough to sustain?

And again, is that what we were promised in the beginning?

This was supposed to be a multi-use facility, concerts, lacrosse games, you know, high school championships.

We just haven't seen a ton of that yet.

I know it's new, but it's definitely something that we'll be looking for.

- All right, to be determined.

Wednesday's filing deadline for candidates this fall produced a few surprises, while last weekend, Democrats did not endorse in the races for governor, lieutenant governor, and attorney general.

We'll get to that momentarily, but, Billy, you know all about the filing deadline.

Let's take the 30,000-foot view.

Any surprises on filing day in your mind, maybe people who filed or didn't?

- Yeah, I mean, it's definitely something that people make last-minute decisions, and you know, Allan Fung was a big surprise to me, especially the fact that he's running as an independent.

You know, obviously there is that feud in the old Republican Party between Allan Fung and Ken Block, and now neither of them are Republicans.

They're both independents, and that's definitely an interesting turn of events.

Beyond that, I mean, it's really surprising to me how many people are actually in the races for governor, lieutenant governor, and attorney general.

I think there's gonna be a lot of resources needed, you know, to run those campaigns, and is that available to, you know, the narrow Democratic Party?

It's something that would be definitely interesting to see, is the ability of those candidates be able to get on the ballot by getting their signatures.

- Yeah, that is obviously the next step.

I think all of the major candidates, so to speak, will have the infrastructure to get on the ballot for the- - 19 people running for governor, or filed to run for governor.

- Yeah, well- - It's amazing.

- Yeah, the major candidates will.

I think they'll get on, but Allan Fung, interesting.

- And so we should let people know if they don't know, Allan Fung, of course, Mayor of Cranston for 10 years, ran for governor twice, ran for Congress, is now running for his wife's old seat.

She upended Speaker Mattiello in Cranston.

So it's a House seat, and he's running as an independent.

That kind of got buried, that they told me, I talked to Barbara Ann and Allan, both who are panelists here on "Lively," that they disaffiliated from the Republican Party long time ago.

- Yeah, which makes sense if you follow the travel of the Fungs from 2018 through now.

I always used to note that Allan would wear a purple tie during his congressional run against- - [Jim] And here on "Lively."

- And here on "Lively."

Well, I think Barbara Ann, his wife, would say, "Well, it's 'cause he went to Classical."

And I'm like, "No, I think this is more than that."

- [Jim] More of a statement, yeah.

- I think you're a purple candidate, which is... So it's good to see them take ownership of that.

And you know, you think back to the Cranston mayoral primary, Republican primary, that Barbara Ann lost 45-55 to Mayor Hopkins.

And I remember that night asking Barbara Ann, and Allan was kind of staying there, "Is there a lane for people like you in the Republican Party?"

And you could just tell that, no, there is no lane for people like them in the Rhode Island Republican Party or the National Republican Party because right now, the Republican party is anything but moderate.

- Well, and you know, during the debates, I think even Seth Magaziner when he woke up that day wasn't sure he was gonna win the congressional race.

He kept staying on message.

The first vote Allan Fung would take in Congress is gonna be for Speaker of the House.

And it's one of the reasons that Linc Chafee lost to Sheldon Whitehouse all those years ago.

Popular guy, but had an R next to his name.

- Right.

- More than 60% of the seats are uncontested.

Surprise, no surprise?

- It's not surprising.

I mean, this has been an issue going back as far as since I started running for office, I mean, even before that.

It's something that is, it's a sad state of affairs in the state of Rhode Island, even if it's a good elected official up there.

Having a competitive electoral race helps the state and the voters in general know where they stand on issues, have them be a little bit more engaged on what's actually going up at the statehouse.

You know, having these uncontested races really gives these legislators a free pass to do whatever they want at the statehouse without repercussions.

And really, the election in the ballot box is supposed to be the accountability step in the electoral process for these elected officials, and without a competitive race, they don't get that accountability.

- Yeah, I think one of the reasons why we can't start talking about term limits in Rhode Island is because I don't know if you could recruit people.

You know, there is value to continuity.

There is a value to expertise, and when something happens, having institutional knowledge in the room.

That is absolutely true, and there's a relationship between representatives and senators and their constituents that is important, that grows over time, yes.

There's a value to that.

At the same time, we need people running for office, at least challenging in primaries and generals, elected officials because that's the space where I think competition breeds ideas.

It breeds innovation.

And right now, it's kind of like, "Let's go to the beach, and, yeah, there's an election.

I'm not running against anybody.

We just gotta get the 50 signatures sometime in late June, and we're on and back into session next January."

- Last time we had you on, we had David Levesque, who has founded the League of Rhode Island Businesses.

They put up a slate of candidates.

It'll be interesting to see what they do.

I'm sure they have the infrastructure, they have the money, so probably gonna get the signatures.

And we talked about this on the show.

Several cycles ago when Susie Yankee was the Republican chairwoman for the GOP, put up all these candidates, had very little success.

So I wonder, they put up, what, eight 10 candidates maybe a few more.

You gotta be surgical in what you're doing.

- Yeah, and you gotta be honest too.

You can't go around telling people, for example, you're a pro-business group when you don't believe that Joe Biden won the presidential election.

You know, you have to be honest.

I think if people were honest, and you say, "Hey, look, we're a Republican group.

We believe that Trump's great and, you know, the election was stolen.

Business is not going well in Rhode Island.

We're your guys," I think you'd find your 20 to 30%.

But right now it's almost like the gamesmanship is out.

It's too cute, too smart, and people aren't just running on ideas in sole.

There's like another level out there they're trying to connect in on to try to almost, like I said, in a gimmick way get votes.

And I think that's sad.

We talk about signatures and, you know, mail ballots and this, that.

It's all a gimmick.

It's a game.

It's not necessarily, "All right, let's get everybody together.

Whose vision is gonna take us forward the best?"

- Let's talk about the process because you were the former chairman of the Libertarian Party.

You've been through election cycles.

You've been in the arena 'cause you have run.

The challenge for these candidates now, it's various signatures depending on the office that you're running for.

Just walk us through what they have to do and the challenge in doing it.

- Certainly, so I think, to tie the last point in the issue with Dave Levesque's group is that he's trying to recreate what the Republican Party really should be functioning as in this state or any second party should be functioning in the state.

The Democratic Party has town committees in every city and town.

They have active members who are involved and engaged.

And that political machine is a huge advantage for establishment candidates because not only do you get the volunteers and the resources, but with the actual mechanics of getting signatures, you know, if it's 1,000 signatures for a statewide race for a governor or a president, for that matter, or a lower 500 for the other statewide races, having the slate petition signatures... So instead of having to get ballot access petitions for each candidate on one sheet of paper, you have all the endorsed candidates on the top of it.

I mean, you start getting a couple of people running for, you know, state rep, general assembly, senate, you know, and they start getting signatures for themselves, which contributes to the up-ballot candidates and makes that whole process a whole lot easier and less burdensome to actually get on the ballot.

And that's supposed to be the advantage of being part of an established political party.

Without that establishment and that organization in the Republican Party, I think that's why you see a lot of these candidates flailing and not having a lot of success.

- [Jim] Because they don't have the structure.

- They don't have the structure, and that's the most important part.

- I mean, you nailed it.

That's exactly it.

The Republican Party in Rhode Island has not been able to find any meaningful traction for... I think of Carcieri's, you know, the end of Carcieri, and I think it was at that point that there were no meaningful pickups for Republicans in, what would that be, like, 2000... - '04.

So I always said Don Carcieri, he should have used his political capital.

He came off The Station nightclub fire.

He was elected in 2002.

2004, he should have been out there at every rubber chicken dinner to say, "We need more people," 'cause he knew as the governor, he's very weak, doesn't have line-item veto.

They lost seats in 2004.

He gets reelected in 2006, and then by 2008, he's like, "I'm done."

"You know, what am I doing here?

I'm ready to, you know, go to Florida."

So I thought that was a missed opportunity for the Republicans.

Do you see, and we had Dave Levesque on here.

He's not here to speak for himself.

Do you think most of those people, if they had to choose Republican or Democrat, would lean Republican?

- You mean the candidates?

- Yeah, the candidates that he's putting up for the League of Rhode Island Businesses.

- I haven't really- - Some he says moderate Democrats.

I mean, there're no progressives, clearly.

- Yeah.

I don't know, I mean, it's tough to say.

If somebody called me up and said, "Hey, do you wanna be a part of my group?"

and they didn't believe that the election 2020 election was valid or didn't offer any argument for it, I would have a hard time if I was anything other than, you know, not even Republican, like be a past Republican.

Like, whatever this new thing is of, you know, sort of false idol patriotism, it feels like it's a MAGA group in every way, shape, and form, which is not even Republicanism as we've seen especially in this state.

- Right, even farther to the right.

You know, let's talk about, well, you're talking about candidates' endorsements.

The Democrats met last week and in the governor's race, lieutenant governor's race, and AG, they didn't get to the threshold for an endorsement, so there was a non-endorsement.

I love Governor McKee.

He put out, "Well, we got more votes than Helena Foulkes did, so it's a win."

So clearly that's the spin.

What do you make of that going forward?

So you're not at the top as the endorsed candidate.

Does that really make a difference, endorsements from the party?

- Well, again, to the slate ballot petitions, that's important for getting signatures and stuff like that, and then also ballot placement is important.

But I think this is really showing that there's a huge split in the Democratic Party.

I think, you know, the reason why the group is, Dave Levesque's group is getting some Democrats and some other things is that you have the establishment Democrats, the progressives, and then you have these kind of homeless Democrats, who I think are more conservative, but they aren't part of the political machine.

And I think they're looking for a home and looking for that support and that structure to help get them elected.

And you know, that seems like a... The Rhode Island Business League seems like a good avenue to get that.

So, you know, it's definitely something that is... The reason why you don't see progressives joining that group is because they have their own infrastructure.

They have their own, you know, party mechanisms to help their candidates get elected, and they don't necessarily need... They're kind of a parasite or, you know, feeding off of the Democratic Party.

- There's a home for them.

- There's a home for them.

- They're not homeless Democrats.

- Exactly.

- Yeah.

Look, the Rhode Island Democratic Party has been not really on board with the McKee administration for a long time.

You just have to look at things like their weekly email that comes from the party, and you'll see stories about, "Here's what Neronha's up to."

"Oh, Jack Reed did this."

- Jack Reed, yeah.

- "Oh, by the way, here's a random... Edie Ajello did this over here."

And then maybe buried at the bottom of the email will be a story about McKee, if that, and this is an energy thing, right?

It's the Jamestown... Liz Beretta-Perik, the chair of the party, she's aligned with Neronha.

There's an alliance there with folks.

That trickles down to Keith Hoffman.

That trickles down to Xay in the lieutenant governor's race.

There's a peer group.

There's an energy.

It's kind of technocrat.

It's kind of Gina.

And that's where they want to go.

And the party has made the decision, "Hey, here's the program.

We're gonna do this."

- He just nailed it in 20 seconds.

I hadn't thought of that.

It really is the trickle down, but there's an alignment too.

- Yeah, it's friends and their friends inside journalism media, their friends inside public relations, their friends inside... It's all one big program, and so they're executing the program.

Now, at the same time, you've got the Northern Rhode Island mayoral peer group.

That's Lombardi, North Providence, DaSilva.

- The mayoral cabal.

- And thereby McKee.

- Grebien.

- Grebien of course.

Now, they have a bit of a tepid... You know, like, for example, Bob DaSilva told us on the radio last week, the mayor of East Providence, the number-one reason he's endorsing McKee is loyalty.

- [Bill H.]

Right.

- You know, you have a division in this party that is, it's not even 50-50.

The tidal wave is everybody wants McKee the hell out of here.

They say, "This son of a gun, you know, is yesterday's news, and we want him the hell out of here right now.

And Helena Foulkes is gonna be your governor candidate.

Take it or leave it."

Now, because of, you know, some of the traditions and some of the nature of the beast and because McKee's the incumbent, they're not running him out of here.

But between Joe Shekarchi soliciting support to run for governor on background on basically what would be taking the governor's lane and the continued sub-rosa growth of Helena Buonanno Foulkes in that party, there's nowhere left for Dan McKee to go.

If he wins this election, it's in spite of the Democrat Party in Rhode Island.

- Hmm, I heard rumors, and people speculate about whether or not McKee would run as an independent just because of all of the issues that are going on.

And you know, I think, you know, the voters are really the ones that are being hurt by this because, again, the one-party state, whether or not you agree with Democratic politics or not, it's condensing all of these candidates into the one party, and we're getting a primary in, you know, September that's going to decide the election and when there's not a huge percentage of voters that are actually going out and voting in that election.

So the decision seems to be being made for Rhode Islanders by a very small subset of people that are politically connected and have an agenda for sure.

- Just quickly, last couple of minutes, former House Speaker Joe Shekarchi was before the Ethics Commission.

He asked them to dismiss the complaint about the revolving door issue.

They said no.

He said they're gonna go to court.

Why should people in Rhode Island care about this?

Sounds like a lot of inside politics.

- Yeah, it is a lot of inside politics.

I think people should care- - But it's ultimately a supreme court position too.

- Well, there is that, but I think the number-one reason why people should care is because it feeds the caricature.

It feeds the beast that the government has, you wanna use the word corruption, but it's all insider deals, and it feeds that beast very well, and no more so than on the day that Joe Shekarchi stepped down as Speaker of the House and handed the gavel, handed the gavel... The gavel was eventually handed over after a vote to Chris Blazejewski, our new Speaker of the House.

In his opening remarks, Chris Blazejewski as Speaker of the House stated to Joe Shekarchi now seated as just a regular old representative, "Speaker, this is just me, but you're gonna make a great supreme court justice."

That is totally outrageous.

- Yeah, it feeds the cynicism.

- Well, I mean, I think if you were to ask the average Rhode Islander what the purpose of the revolving door, you know, laws are, it's to exactly prevent someone like the Speaker of House going to the supreme court.

It's not some committee chair going to work for the secretary of state or something like that.

So the fact that, you know... Shekarchi's lawyers have every right to go ahead and find loopholes or interpret the law the way it's written to be a certain way, but the larger Rhode Island Code of Ethics, you know, is designed to prevent the idea that, or the perception of impropriety or the perception that people are using their political office for personal gain.

And just the perception of, or if you ask the average Rhode Islander, even if they don't necessarily understand everything around it, it's a little inside baseball, again, the feeling to me would be that this is exactly the type of scenario these laws were created for.

And it's something that, you know, it's not a good look for Shekarchi in my opinion.

- Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out because then the timetable you have for the supreme court, it may run out the clock with all of this, you know, legal and everything else.

All right, let's go to "Outrageous and/or Kudos."

Bill, what do you have this week?

- Kudos.

How about this?

World Cup in Providence, Rhode Island.

No, they're not playing games downtown, but they have this fan zone downtown where you can go, and you can stand outside of the train station park and watch games.

I've been going down as often as I can talking to people.

- [Jim] What's the vibe?

- So fun, so fun, so innocent.

So like, wow, the world is still like, okay.

Like, there's something... It's not just this big stressful struggle, mirror world that we're living.

Like, it is okay.

People still get together and hang out.

I will say this, that going into the World Cup, there was a lot of negative energy of the restaurant hospitality group.

They were on the radio saying, "No, nobody's coming.

The hotels aren't booked.

It's gonna be a disaster."

And then what happened is kind of magical.

The visitors are kind of magical.

The games are kind of magical.

All of a sudden, Providence just kind of looks a little different, the way the sun's hitting the buildings.

And I really think energy manifestation is something that's real, and as a state, we need to stop manifesting negative things.

- What do you have?

- So I think I've talked about this in previous episodes, but, you know, the growing trend of nonprofit organizations and NGOs getting involved in political elections just seems like an ongoing problem in this state.

And it's not necessarily something that I think the voters realize is happening.

I think the idea that campaigns could donate money to a nonprofit was a practical solution to what do you do with unused campaign funds.

And now what you're seeing is a lot of political action committees and politically aligned individuals actually creating nonprofits to basically funnel funds into borderline electioneering-type activities.

And, you know, that creates big problems because these nonprofits are not subject to campaign finance laws.

You could donate to these nonprofits and get a tax write-off for it.

So, you know, regulation often starts off as a restraint of power, but, you know, eventually it becomes something like this, which is a moat and a barrier for other people to run for office 'cause why are you gonna run for office when you got the machine and all of these other NGOs working against you?

- The bloom is off the rose.

- The bloom is off the rose.

- There you go.

Bill, Billy, thank you.

- Thank you.

- It was a great half hour.

Thank you for joining us.

Be sure and check us out on Facebook, X, Instagram, and on the Ocean State Media YouTube channel and once again, wherever you get your favorite podcast.

We'll see you next time right here on "Lively."

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