>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Today on Connections, we are focused on Venezuela.

President Trump says the United States will effectively run the country now that it has captured President Nicolas Maduro and his wife, the vice president of Venezuela was sworn in yesterday, and she says she is open to a partnership with the United States.

But she also says the United States engaged in illegal violence and kidnaping of a head of state.

President Trump has responded that he will do the same to her if she doesn't do what he says.

Well, the future is obviously deeply uncertain here.

What is clear is that Nicolas Maduro was a brutal dictator whose rule created misery for millions of people, and we want to begin our conversation with the voices of Venezuelans to help us understand how they are seeing these extraordinary events playing out.

And I want to welcome them this hour.

We're glad in studio to have Heidi Weiss, who is a psychologist and community wellness advocate.

Heidi, thank you for being here.

Welcome to the program.

>> Thank you for inviting.

>> Me.

And Kelly Tovar Mullaney is a web designer, web producer, president of Working Art Media.

Welcome back.

Nice to see you.

Thank you for being here, Kelly.

>> Thank you for inviting.

>> Us.

And both of our guests are from Venezuela.

We're going to talk about their backgrounds a little bit coming up here, but I just want to start by asking both of you to describe your reaction to, I mean, I don't know what else to say.

These extraordinary events of the last few days here, Heidi, when you saw that Nicolas Maduro and his wife were in United States custody as part of an operation to extract him from the country, and you've seen in just 48 hours how quickly things are moving.

What has been your reaction.?

>> At the beginning, I was confused and and shocked, like I believe many Venezuelans are too.

And it was a moment of a lot of distrust because we're being in under a regime that we're being with a lot of uncertainties.

So we couldn't believe we didn't know at the beginning what was real and what wasn't.

but after President Trump announced it was captured and it was real from other sources than just Venezuelans making up news it feels like a relief.

>> A relief to see him gone.

>> Yes.

To to see him captured.

>> To see him captured, to see possible justice for Maduro.

>> Exactly.

>> Okay.

And do you have hope that what comes next can be a better solution for the Venezuelan people?

>> Definitely.

We don't know.

Is it better for certain?

We just know that it change.

Every change is takes time to assimilate it.

And we believe any change is possible and could is obviously it's an opportunity for Venezuelans to step forward and gain their freedom again.

>> Let me ask the same question to Kelly.

What has been your reaction to these events of the last several days.?

>> Started with surprise and shock, like Heidi, I was not sure what was going on.

It's like, is this real?

Is this for real?

Because there there is always the the possibility that that government was trying to fool everybody.

And sure, it has happened before.

I received a call from my sister and about 230 and then she said they took Maduro.

They Maduro is gone.

And then.

>> Where is she?

Is she in Venezuela?

>> my sister in Scotland.

>> In Scotland.

>> She called me here because in Venezuela, some people, they didn't have internet or or electricity.

So I, I was cautious and of course I my heart was going a mile a minute and I said, okay let's let's see what what what's going on?

What.

So we started seeing the social media and the news, but at the end, I was not sure I was waiting for the for the, the the press release, the the press conference from the president that was I wanted to really make sure that that was going on when I was looking at the TV and saw that he said, we have Maduro in custody.

That's when I said it's like, okay, I think this this is the beginning of the end because it's something that you have been waiting for so long and you say you don't want to have hope that is not going is going to be crushed again.

And that's when I started to cry.

But of happiness, of that.

This was real.

Finally, there was some action because there hasn't been any so far.

>> And what do you hope that could happen next year with the leadership of Venezuela?

>> Right now we are and most of the people that I've been talking with we are hoping that there's really there's going to be change.

However, like Heidi said, that's that's not going to happen overnight.

It's going to take some time.

Because even when Maduro is not there, the rest of his his people is still in control.

And we are hopeful with caution.

I am hopeful, but with caution.

I am ecstatic and and super happy.

And like most Venezuela, we are celebrating that the dictator is out.

But now we are.

We are looking what's going on?

Because what's going to happen because there are many factors that don't depend on us.

It there are there are many.

There are things that are going on that we don't know.

So that's, that's that's my the what I wait to what I hope to see on the next year.

I hope that there's going to be change for a new leadership that they live.

>> So in other words, not the the current vice president.

You don't want to see her remain.

>> Oh no no no no.

>> She's part of the machine.

>> She is.

She could be even worse than than Maduro.

Everybody there has their own interest and their own.

Take on on the machinery.

>> So we'll talk this hour about the different ways that the leadership vacuum could be filled with our guests and what they are seeing.

Listeners, I want to invite your questions if you have them, comments, if you want to make some it's the email address is Connections at wxxi.org.

You can call the program toll free 844295 talk.

It's 8442958255263 WXXI.

If you're in Rochester 2639994, join the chat.

If you're watching on the WXXI News YouTube channel, I want this conversation to be from a disposition of humility.

And I want to I want to highlight a question that Heidi asked me before the program began.

She asked me, what do you know about Venezuela?

And humbly, the answer is not nearly enough, especially as we try to evaluate the actions of our government because Americans, especially in the social media age, have a habit of picking political teams and not seeing a whole lot of nuance.

And I think that there that you can feel a lot of different ways about this.

I think you can be skeptical about the way that we are going about changing a regime in Venezuela.

I think you can be feeling the relief and, frankly, happiness for our guests.

And, you know, there there many countrymen and women in Venezuela, you can be hopeful for the future.

You can be skeptical about motivation.

You can be concerned about the just the explicit conversations about oil, you know, which seems to come before people.

But I am hearing a lot of relief and happiness from the people of Venezuela.

So I'm going to ask Heidi and Kelly, what do you want people to know?

When you said to me, what do you know about Venezuela?

Well, we can't fit it all in.

In a short conversation, but what do you want Americans to know about Venezuela?

>> I'm going to go like you in the perspective as, humble way.

And I want to give Americans this example.

Let's let's think about this female that started into a relationship with a male and end up being in a violent relationship with a toxic man and their neighbors and family members said, well, you got in there because you want to you choose him.

Your you're it's your problem.

You have to solve your problem.

You have to come out.

But when you don't know as when a person is in a toxic relationship with a person, that is gaslighting her and is abusing her for many years, decades it's hard to get out.

And if her financial wealth take her out of that situation, she's willing to pay the price in order to experience freedom again.

So let's transfer this small example into Venezuela.

Let's say Venezuela has been that lady that got into a toxic relationship for many, many years has been traumatized.

It fought for years trying, asking for help.

International help.

More than 70 countries try to help, but nobody could do anything because many politicals and this person, in this case United States, took radical movements to help in order to an exchange.

We're willing to pay.

The price.

It's worth it because it's being is being under so many years of corruption, especially Venezuela, have literally lived less with more poverty than countries in Africa.

And it's unbelievable because we do have natural resources that make us competent for the world and to provide wellness to the world.

>> Now, before I ask Kelly the same question, when you talk about the toxic relationship that you see, the people of Venezuela in, with the dictatorship, Maduro came into power as the president of Venezuela 12, 13 years ago.

But he was also, my understanding, a member of the Chavez regime.

Do you see that toxic relationship as starting in 2012, 2013, or does it go back into the Chavez years and long before.

>> The toxic relationship started with Chavez?

and and getting in a relationship is start with a lot of gaslighting, hope, promises of wellness, and using your own resources to, you know, for your own good.

And none of that really happened.

Venezuelans are experienced less benefits and more poverty every day.

Every single day.

And Maduro inherited.

I will say, by boat too.

But in heard the President Chavez policies or lovable people followers.

But little by little the reality start to seem everybody start to see the reality of the country and, and the last elections in 2024, when the whole world was able to see a fraud on elections, the government decide to stay because they want to.

They couldn't prove that elections were legal and they decide to stay.

Venezuelans, people in Venezuela decide to speak up, decide to say this is not true.

This is they're not the true government.

They decide to raise their voices.

If you look all over social media, you can see thousands and thousands of video from 2024 elections.

People expressing their what they really vote, what the government did is they allowed the militaries to access people's houses, and they have the right to ask for your cell phone, unlock your cell phone.

And they and they look all your private emails, all your private messages, they look all your social media.

And if they found anything against the government, they want to press, they want to prison.

This is not freedom.

This is how people trying to escape, trying to prove under real under under the right weight, what are, which are and they decide to oppress the voice of Venezuelans radical radical situations requires radical expressions and changes.

And definitely what is happening and the negotiations that are trying to involve right now United States are a light of hope.

we still have lots of traumas from like, let's say, from the government.

We came from.

And the suppression were being on for years.

I will said, generation, a whole generation in our country have never experienced a different type of regime.

And this is unbelievable.

And definitely change our heart to understand, our heart to take, especially when we have so much trauma of distrust and instability.

But little by little, I believe things are could turn into better.

The world is changing and we all have to adapt.

Like it or not.

>> Kelly, what do you want Americans to understand about Venezuela?

>> Venezuela is is a beautiful country.

It's a wonderful country, is rich and the people is.

Kind.

Happy.

We we love our country.

And we also welcome.

Now I'm talking from before the the Chavismo.

When when Chavez came in after after Chavez came in, he started breaking the people.

He it was it was a change that that we say, how are we going to recover nowadays?

Say, how are we going to recover that, that same.

Happiness that, that, that we, that we used to live with, we we used to travel and and do a we love the having people coming and visiting.

We received a lot of immigration.

Being a rich country, we we were the richest country in in South America.

We welcome lots of immigrants.

And we were you know, we were happy we had the Italians, Portuguese, Spanish Argentina, everywhere where there was chaos.

We were welcoming them.

There was that mix that we were happy to to have people coming in and after all these years that we see how we we lost everything.

It's it breaks, it breaks the heart.

They have been breaking the people.

But we still have that flame inside that we we fall and then we try again.

Sometimes we do we get people get tired and they say, well, am I going to go again in a on a demonstration?

And then I don't know if I'm going to come alive at home.

there's still people that is, that is, is doing that.

But in, in general, Venezuelans, we are happy.

Sometimes we, we use humor to to cover our, our pain.

But that's the way we are.

We like, we like to dance music and, and and we want justice.

We want to go back and and be able to get the people out.

I love the.

The comparison that Heidi did about a woman in a, in a toxic relationship because that's what happened.

It's something that, you know, whenever there is a change of government in the elections, the people that vote for each of the candidates, they they're hoping that they're going to they're going to have some, some change.

There's going to be there's going to be a, a betterment of their situation.

And in this case, the, the Chavez regime and then the Maduro, they separated families, they broke families because they were saying, no, he's going to really is going to help us.

because there was a lot of there is a lot of people that they were not in, in in a good situation before Chavez came.

There's a poor people.

And they said, he's one of us.

He's going to help us.

And it was gaslighting because he was yeah, I'm one of us.

And he talks like like a.

>> An an average person.

>> Yeah.

Like an average person.

It's like, hey, hello.

How are you?

Come here.

And people loved that because he's like, yeah, he's not a politician.

He's one of us.

But little by little they were they started to change laws, started to to clean their the, the military and the, the leadership.

structure so that they would get control.

And when they eliminated the limits for for the, the elections so they could perpetuate their their staying in government.

But that was done very always saying, no, this is for your own good because we haven't finished doing what we need to to do to.

>> Give us time.

It will be good for the people eventually.

>> Exactly.

Yeah.

>> And you, you grew to see that as a as a lie, as a scam.

>> That's.

And there were some that they saw that from the beginning.

And there were those that they, they thought that.

No, we have hope that this is going to do it.

And it didn't happen.

>> Let me take a phone call from Aruba, which, you know, I mean, geographically is not all that far from Venezuela.

And this is from Herman, who is Venezuela.

Herman, welcome.

Can you hear me?

Go ahead.

Sir.

>> Yes, yes, I can hear you perfectly.

How are you?

>> Good.

Yeah.

Go ahead sir.

>> Well, I just I just wanted to first of all, say hi to my compatriots over there at the show.

I, I enjoy seeing seeing their big smiles.

after this.

And I just wanted to say it's important to say thank you to the American government.

even though if you're a big fan or not, a big fan of Trump, I'm personally not a big fan of Trump, of how he treats some people and everything.

But I think we do have to say thanks for finally doing something because we have trying to protest against this government.

We have tried to vote them out many times.

We have done a lot of things all over the world.

We tried to do everything legal.

We tried to do signatures, un here and that everything and nothing ever works for us in the country.

We always get.

Yes, yes, we're going to help and nothing ever happens.

So I do want to say thank thanks to the government of the United States.

I don't think it's only Trump.

I think it's the whole country.

Democrats and Republicans, everybody that's been complaining that this is not the legal way.

we understand it, but everybody needs to understand that criminals do not go out the legal way.

And this was the only way for a lot of Venezuelans.

It was the only solution is to start cutting the head off and then seeing if we can get rid of the rest of the people over there and maybe get elections and and let us be heard, and we will deal with the consequences or the negotiations we need to deal with with the United States or whoever it is, because we've been our country's resources have been sucked up from other countries, and nobody cared then.

So I think now it's a good time to to get a change.

And I just wanted to say thanks to everybody, even those those Americans that are complaining about legality and everything.

Thank you for giving your military and your soldiers to get this out.

And hopefully we're going to see benefits.

Everybody.

>> Let me also just ask you, I got an email from a listener named sage who wanted to know what our Venezuelan guests think is the motivation that this Trump administration has for this action.

What I hear from you is that to you, it kind of doesn't matter.

I mean, you can speak for yourself, but what I hear you saying is, you understand the concern as someone who is not a fan of Trump yourself, you understand the concern people have, but you also feel the desperation that says, if it had to happen this way, it had to happen somehow.

So let me ask you, sage just wants to know what you think the administration's motivation is.

Herman.

>> Well like, in everything politicians, they have their own agenda.

And I'm sure Trump has his own agenda with this.

I don't know if it's a personal thing for him, for his family.

I don't know if it's for the government.

I what I do know is Americans are going to benefit of whatever happens with our oil.

I mean, the U.S.

is the country that invested in our infrastructure and oil infrastructure.

And way back in the 1900s, because without them, we wouldn't have oil, we wouldn't have been able to get any oil.

So then coming back and taking charge of of again, doing all this for oil, it's going to be a benefit for us and it's going to be a benefit for for the U.S.

and for the rest of the world.

But most importantly, there's a bunch of people that needed to be free in their country.

And we have invaded countries everywhere.

A lot of people, they don't even like Venezuelans now because we had to go there.

And we know Venezuela has been annoying for a lot of countries.

Of all the migration.

And we would love to have our country back and everybody go back.

We love our country.

But it's it's hard when you have people that are just destroying it.

And, and just taking political prisoners just for saying your opinion.

So that's, that's what I think everybody's going to get.

Everybody's going to benefit of this.

we can go into legalities and all that.

But in the end, criminals do not leave on their own.

And motivation, if his motivation is money for the United States and oil, then so be it.

I mean, we as Venezuelans, we haven't received a cent of the oil that that Russia is sucking in China and Cuba and everything.

And so we just get soldiers and repression over there, no benefits.

So if if it's oil, then it's oil.

In the end, if you hear all the Venezuelans saying, we would give all of our oil if we could be free in our country, we don't care.

We want to have more than one option of cereals in in our supermarkets.

We don't want to make lines.

We want to.

I mean, before we had everything.

Now we don't have any anything.

So I don't know.

That's I, we don't really care about the motives.

And if there is a motive that's going to be hard for us.

It's going to be hard.

Believe me, it's not going to be harder than having Chavez and Maduro and and all of them stealing our stuff.

>> Herman, good luck to you.

safe travels wherever you end up going.

And thank you for making time to call the program.

>> No, thank you for giving us time to talk.

And I hope the rest of the country understands what we're going through and hope they will join in our festivities.

>> Herman.

Thank you.

And that is a phone call from Aruba.

Took a couple tries to get through.

We appreciate him doing that.

So he says, Kelly, I'll start with you.

He says he kind of doesn't care what the Trump administration's motive is.

Do you care?

And what do you think the emailer sage want to know?

What do you think the administration's motive is here with this action?

>> I believe when people do anything they have, they have a motivation.

They have to they have to have some some incentive.

And if the incentive is the the oil, then we have we have to use that.

Venezuelans is is a ransom.

It's please take us out of this hole.

We have been we have been touching bottom so many times.

And whenever we think that we have reached bottom, then there is an even lower level that they can take us is right now is like, let's, let's do that.

We you want oil?

There is plenty for everybody.

Even if even if they go and and I understand that the fears of, well, are we going to be a colony of the United States?

Is are we the 51st state or the 52nd state?

you know, it's part of the fear when when you think the worst can happen, there is no words that we have right now.

We we need we need somebody that is when I say somebody, we need a country that government is going to is going to help us get out of here.

>> So let me ask you, before I get Heidi's take on this, I think part of what sage is saying, you yourself just said, Kelly, that every time you thought you couldn't have hit worse, couldn't have hit.

This had to be rock bottom.

It got worse.

You thought it couldn't get worse under Chavez.

It got worse under Maduro.

The indication is that somehow could still get worse.

And I think part of what sage is asking is if you have the wrong motivation for the people who are ostensibly helping you, if their goal is to put resources and commodities above people, are you worried that this could continue the suffering or actually make it worse?

>> That can always be worked out because I'm not.

I'm not thinking that we're going to be.

I'm not thinking about the worst case scenario.

But if the worst case scenario appears first is not going to be as worse as we have right now, I don't.

>> You are confident that this will not be worse than Maduro no matter what happens.

>> I don't I honestly, I don't think that it's going to get worse.

Okay.

But then there are ways that we can work that out is something that it even when when the president says that we're we're controlling the country, it's you're not going to you're not you're not controlling the country.

It's not it's not a control as you have right now that the it's a narco regime that has is like a cancer.

It's everywhere.

It's like all the ramifications that they are everywhere.

We want peace and tranquility about living with the, the, the level that a human being can, can, can, can live.

We want our food in, in, in, in our tables.

All the people that is not able to, they don't know if they're going to be have food for tomorrow.

We need that the, the the economy is in shambles.

Is is a there are no investments for, for for for businesses because you cannot you don't have a real economy.

You have to do everything through the influence of anybody that wants a piece of what?

Of of your of your business.

So if there are motivations, it like I said before, let them have their motivation because you're not going to do unfortunately, you don't do things from the from the goodness of your heart, especially a government and a and politicians and you, you're seeing the possibilities.

How is this going to help the United States?

How?

And we so far we have been arguing about the strategy, the strategic danger that is having Venezuela controlled by Russia and China and and the narco regime, that is a that is a real danger for the for for the area.

And it hasn't been enough motivation to work to, to, to take action.

Then, hey, we have oil come and we can pay, we can pay the ransom and we want to we want out of the out of the, the regime.

We can work it out later as a it's something that there are international laws and even when we have to pay a high price, we are not going.

I don't think we're going to lose everything.

We I believe that we are going to be able to get and recover what we have lost to a level that then we can start going for a normal life.

>> Heidi, do you have thoughts on the motivation?

>> I want to believe there is no personal motivations on the Trump President Trump.

I want to believe the President Trump is moving and strategically in favors for Americans.

And let's go back a little bit on history.

Venezuela and United States have worked for many years in the past.

Since 1901.

And then United States decide to invest on companies, private companies of oil companies into Venezuela.

Let's be realistic.

Venezuela has the largest reserve in the world of oil.

We have reservation tested for more than 100 years of reserve because the history with the United States and our oil production and reservations, United States for many years decide to invest private companies, and they manufacture and they create the refineries in Venezuela and pro of for United States.

What this what this means the infrastructure for oil in United States is exactly the infrastructure of the refineries in Venezuela.

Since President Chavez decided to not to keep the oil for himself that force United States to look for oil in other countries.

The difference is the refineries are the type of oils we have is like a heavier, heavier metal.

And the refineries and the infrastructure in United States is all set up for the oil there work for many years, over 70 years with Venezuela getting oil from other countries is is caused some issues.

It's caused trouble for United States.

And now going back to Venezuela and do a line alignments with Venezuela and there and updating the refineries and the companies and going back again to Venezuela to restructure the infrastructure and restructure the businesses there.

There's no doubt it's going to benefit both countries.

Like Kelly mentioned, Venezuela was is not producing the amount of oil is supposed to produce is only 4%.

This is incredible.

The the infrastructure is so old that they only can produce 4% of what we can't or and where they were been doing.

The corrupt government was selling making arrangements with other countries like Russia, well known, Cuba well known, and China well known for less than less than a price, let's say today the price is $60.

The barrel of oil.

They were selling it way less.

I'm not.

I don't have the amount, but it's way less.

None of that money of that oil selling to this countries was coming to the Venezuelan people.

All this money was going to the pockets of Maduro and all his alliance.

Venezuelan people was not seeing any cent like her mentioned in the phone call.

They haven't seen any of that money.

The structures are falling apart.

There's not medication to be found.

There's no food.

Many thousands of people are receiving help because of their family members who left the country, and they sent money.

There's no jobs, there's no education.

There's literally nothing for the Venezuelan people.

So now the President Trump's coming in and decide to create a possible job opportunities for Venezuela, bringing back Chevron.

If you see Chevron yesterday opens up the the market went all the way up.

If you and invest in the in Wall Street, the stocks went up just by over the weekend.

President Trump mentioned he's going to invest over 100 million dollars in Venezuela, in the oil company.

So just by that, you can see.

All right, we're going to welcome other, other investments and other and other business opportunities and job opportunities, not only for the people in Venezuela, but also for Americans that now are taking over the situation.

President Trump said something very important.

yesterday, on Monday, he it was Monday or was on Sunday, I don't believe I don't remember, but he mentioned that when somebody asked him about what's happening with the oil, it was sent to China.

President Trump said, we're going to sell it now.

It's they're still going to get what they where they what they want, and it's going to be more because it's going to be faster.

It's going to be better.

So what you can see from those, from those words is, is willing for business.

It's willing to cooperate for, to have income and benefits to United States and to the people in Venezuela.

So definitely, it's a lot of hope for both countries and financial hope benefits in both sides.

And I could see a win-win in both for both sides.

>> And we got to take our only break of this hour.

We're going to come right back.

You're hearing Heidi Weiss, who is a psychologist and a community wellness advocate and a native Venezuelan Kelly Tovar Mullaney, also a Venezuelan who is a web designer, web producer, president of Working Art Media.

They are sharing their perspectives and we're going to come back.

We'll take more listener feedback as we talk about what's happening in Venezuela and what comes next.

Coming up in our second hour, we expand the conversation on Venezuela with a conversation about what this portends for what America does next, and our relationships around the world.

My guest next hour is Dr.

Hein Goemans, author of War and and director of the Peter D. Watson Center for Conflict and Cooperation at the University of Rochester.

This, in many ways is his specialty.

What leads to conflict and what ends it?

And we'll talk about that next hour.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Fred Maxik, now part of Withm, a national advisory and public accounting firm.

The local team continues its decades long commitment to serving Western New York with advisory, tax and assurance services.

More at withmore.

>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson talking Venezuela both hours today, the first hour with native Venezuelans talking about their experience.

Briefly, Heidi and Kelly are going to tell us a little bit about why they left Venezuela.

Heidi, what part of Venezuela were you from?

>> I'm from Valencia.

Is in central north of Venezuela.

And I came to United States to study English.

I graduated from high school, and it was a period that my mom didn't want to waste my time on vacation.

And she said you're going to to you're going to United States to study English.

And I fell in love with this city, with this community.

And I decided to stay.

>> In Rochester.

>> In Rochester.

>> All right.

okay.

>> And you've been here since when?

>> Since 2002.

>> Since 2002.

And so you decided to stay.

But do you still have family in Venezuela?

>> Yes, I do, I do still have family.

And we communicate every single day.

We have a family chat.

>> Are they feeling the same way you're feeling about the exit of Maduro?

>> like I said, they're in a lot of fear.

Their people are in trauma and a lot of fear.

They absolutely.

They speak in key words, we're okay.

Everything is fine.

>> They're still afraid to express opinions and.

>> Totally, 100%, they're afraid of communicating.

Yeah.

They said they don't feel safe, but they cannot say that they use key words.

You know things are the same here, but we we now know how to understand them.

Before, it was like, speak out.

Don't worry.

Delete the message after you tell us the truth.

But now the family knows how to communicate.

And we communicate in key words.

They are still afraid and they speak out very little.

And they delete every single message where they can express themselves because they know it can put them in danger.

>> Yeah.

And Heidi, I'm thinking about the power structure again.

I'm probably like a lot of Americans learning very quickly.

One of the things I've been reading is that there are hundreds, if not thousands of generals in the Venezuelan army, and that is by design, because the generals get power and money and wealth, and then they know that to preserve their power and wealth, they have to police the population that might be upset with the poverty that they are in.

And so you use the military as an arm of authoritarianism.

Now that Maduro is gone, is that still in place?

Do you think that could change.

>> That still in place?

Definitely.

Maduro left and is a, a a big step.

It's a big, important step of the war is a is a bottle.

It's a wind bottle.

But the war hasn't been warned yet.

It's still lots of people there that let's say they still control the military and.

And the military control people.

People's opinion, people's belief, even people have people's actions.

So as long as we Venezuelans.

I'm I'm going to speak for the people in Venezuela and people in, outside of Venezuela.

As long as Venezuelan doesn't see a change of leadership and the military structure, we're not going to feel safe because we've been pressed for so many years by just military actions.

>> Kelly, you came to the United States when?

>> Initially, I came as an exchange student on a 1989, 79, 80.

I was I was in Churchville-chili an exchange student there.

And I, I made my friends and families in with with a school and the street where I lived later on 94, I came visiting, and I reconnected with with the family.

One of the families that I, I, I knew when I was an exchange student passed some time, and I married the eldest son of the family, the Melanie's.

Those were I met the family when I was an exchange student.

And years later, we reconnected.

I was surprised that they had the same phone number.

And, yeah, they invited me.

Why don't you come here?

We'll help you find a job.

And.

And I was living with my.

Who later became my in-laws, and I adored them.

And they.

They loved me.

>> We're getting your whole love story.

I love.

>> This, I know.

>> And so what part of Venezuela did you grow up in?

>> I, I grew up in Caracas.

I moved to Caracas when I was a young child.

And so it's it's my hometown.

>> Caracas is a city of roughly 5 million people in a country of 20, 28, 29, 30 million.

I mean, it depends on the estimates, because there have been a lot of Venezuelans who've left under the Chavez and now Maduro regimes.

but you grew up in a big city.

Yes, a little bigger than Rochester, a little bigger.

And would you, at this point in your lives, would either of you ever entertain going back to Venezuela permanently?

Would you?

Kelly.

>> Yes, I would.

you would.

It's it's a it's it's it's a beautiful country.

It's a nice country.

And I have my, my roots.

I say.

I want to, I want to to be in touch with my with my family.

I have family there.

And, even when I, I, I love where I, where I live here, and this is my home.

My, my hope is that I can go back and forth.

I can I can live.

>> Safely, securely.

>> Exactly.

Yes.

Yeah.

You know, I would be how do you call them winter birds?

>> Snowbirds.

>> Snowbirds.

And then I can.

>> Go get any snow in Venezuela.

>> That we we actually have in the Andes, in the mountains.

Mountains?

Yes.

We have a little bit of everything.

We have this desert.

We have jungle, beaches, snow.

>> You can have it all.

So would you, Heidi, go back to Venezuela?

>> Definitely.

No doubts.

Venezuela is my country, my home country.

Before before Maduro was taken, I was planning my retirement in north of Italy.

And now I'm looking forward again to invest in Venezuela for the future.

So definitely have lots of Americans friends that before I used to tell them, don't visit Venezuela.

It's not safe for you.

Even though it's a beautiful country, that I will love you to see one day.

It's not safe for you to go right now.

I call them Saturday evening and I told them it's safe.

We can we can visit Venezuela, and you're going to have the opportunity to experience a beautiful country you might fall in love with.

So it's a yes for me.

>> Okay.

And before we let the hour go, here had a listener emailed to ask why our guests are against the current vice president sworn in yesterday, becoming the leader of the country.

And the listeners are asking Delcy Rodriguez is her name.

Previously Mr.

Maduro's vice president, sworn in New York Times.

pointing out here that she has been long, very close to the Maduro operation.

But President Trump says she's the best choice for now to continue operations.

Neither of you seem very optimistic about her, Kelly.

Why not?

>> She's part of the of the whole gang.

However, I understand, and I is one of those.

situations that it is a bad situation that right now.

There are like Heidi said the military is controlling the country.

And even when Maduro is not there, like I said, it's a cancer.

You have you have to the there are bad people everywhere.

I, I believe it's not going to happen overnight.

>> Sure.

And so there's some continuity with this.

>> Vice that is on continuity because otherwise then I think it would be worse than now in terms of having really a war.

>> Okay.

What about the opposition leader María Corina Machado, who President Trump has said does not have enough support to run the country.

>> She has the support of the people.

She doesn't have the support of the people in charge.

>> The.

>> Military, of the military.

You put María Corina Machado there and she's not going to be able to govern because every everybody in the leadership, in the, in the, in the literature is with the old government.

Sure.

It has to be.

It takes time.

And I know that, you know, a you you know, we want something fast.

But we are hopeful that then isn't going to take too long.

This is the beginning of the end.

We want change.

>> But last minute or so do you want to see María Corina Machado as part of the future leadership of Venezuela?

>> Definitely, definitely.

María Corina Machado have shown leadership for the Venezuelan people, and I believe with the right structure and the right transition, she's going to be able to leader and put Venezuela in a and A the right representative way.

Venezuelans would like to be shown in the world.

>> Okay.

Do you agree that right now is not the right moment for her?

>> I agree.

>> Because it's not safe for her.

>> It's not safe for her.

The whole structure, like Kelly mentioned, the whole structure of the government is the opposition and her safety is in in danger.

>> I hope the next time we speak the news from your home country is positive, peaceful, prosperous.

I mean, I'm not trying to be naive.

I know how truly uncertain this moment is, but I hear the hope in both of your voices.

And I want to thank you both for telling your stories and being here with us this hour.

>> Thank you for having us.

>> We're going to continue with a broadening the lens on what the situation in Venezuela means for international relations and, and what that might portend for the future.

But for now, let's let's thank Heidi Weiss and Kelly Tovar Mullaney for being with us this hour.

We've got more Connections coming up in just a moment.

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