>>> AN ELECTED SCHOOL BOARD, NEW TEACHERS UNION CONTRACT, THE END OF A MORATORIUM ON SCHOOL CLOSURES, THESE ARE JUST SOME OF THE HURDLES FACING CHICAGO'S NEXT MAYOR.

THEY WILL BE OVERSEEING CHICAGO PUBLIC SCHOOLS DURING WHAT IS EXPECTED TO BE A TRANSFORMATIVE PERIOD.

JOINING US IT ON ABOUT ALL OF THIS ARE ELAINE ALLENSWORTH EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO CONSORTIUM ON SCHOOL RESEARCH, AND CHARLES TAJIK, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF EDUCATION AT LOYOLA UNIVERSITY, CHICAGO.

WELCOME BOTH OF YOU TO "CHICAGO TONIGHT."

LET US SET THE STAGE WITH THE BIG PICTURE HERE YOU CAN MOMENTOUS DOWN ABOUT A QUARTER OVER THE LAST DECADE .

PARENTS HAVE CITED THINGS LIKE THE CONSTANT TURMOIL, LABOR STOPPAGES AS REASONS THAT THEY PULLED THEIR KIDS FROM CLASSROOMS.

HOW CAN CPS CHINA'S LONG-TERM DECLINE AROUND?

>> THE BIGGEST DRIVING FACTOR IS THE CHANGE IN THE POPULATION IN CHICAGO AND THE STATE OF ILLINOIS.

WE HAVE SEEN HUGE DECLINES IN SCHOOL-AGED POPULATIONS.

SO, ONE VERY IMPORTANT FACTOR IS WHAT ARE WE DOING AS A STATE AND A CITY TO ATTRACT PEOPLE, AND TO KEEP FAMILIES SO THAT THE CITY IS AFFORDABLE, LIVABLE , A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE WANT TO BE.

>> SO IT IS TIED TO THESE BIGGER DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES.

CHARLES, ACCORDING TO CPS, 40% OF SCHOOLS ARE DEEMED UNDERUTILIZED RIGHT NOW.

22 HIGH SCHOOLS HAVE LESS THAN 250 STUDENTS AS THEIR ENROLLMENT.

A MORATORIUM ON FURTHER SCHOOL CLOSURES WILL LIFT IN 2025.

WHICH OF THE NEXT MAYOR TO ABOUT THE SITUATION?

>> THIS REALLY IS A PRESSING ISSUE BECAUSE IT IS A SIGNIFICANT COST FOR THE DISTRICT, AND IT DOES BEAR ON THE QUALITY OF EDUCATION THAT THESE SCHOOLS ARE ABLE TO OFFER IN A SMALLER POPULATION SCHOOLS.

I WORRY ABOUT CLOSURES AS THE FIRST LINE OF APPROACH TO THIS ISSUE , BECAUSE THERE IS A LONG HISTORY OF MISTRUST AND HARM BETWEEN CPS AND MANY OF THE COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE CITY , ESPECIALLY OUR BLACK COMMUNITIES.

IT REALLY HAS TO BE A STRATEGY OF INVESTMENT , HADAWAY BUILD IN THE SCHOOLS.

WE'VE HEARD BOTH CANDIDATES TALK ABOUT THIS , EXCEEDING NIGHT AND WEEKEND PROGRAMS TO KEEP BUILDINGS OPEN MORE OFTEN, WHICH HARKENS BACK TO A DIFFERENT APPROACH.

WE'VE HEARD JOHNSON TALK ABOUT CREATING NEW PROGRAMS AND UTILIZING SPACE IN BUILDINGS AND NEW WAYS.

I BE INTERESTED IN SEEING MORE ABOUT THAT AND WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE.

>> BOTH CANDIDATES TO SOME EXTENT HAVE TALKED ABOUT REPURPOSING SOME OF THESE UNDER ENROLLED SCHOOLS.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE FISCAL SITUATION AT CPS, THERE COULD BE A GAP OF ABOUT HALF $1 MILLION OR SO.

HOW CAN THE SYSTEM AFFORD TO GO ON THE SIZE IT IS WHEN THAT ENROLLMENT KEEPS SHRINKING?

>> ONE THING YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER IS ACTUALLY THE COST OF CLOSING SCHOOLS THAT A LOT OF TIMES PEOPLE DON'T THINK ABOUT.

IS NOT JUST A MATTER OF LOOKING AT THE NUMBER OF STUDENTS, THE NUMBER OF STAFF MEMBERS, AND REORGANIZING THEM IN A SMALLER NUMBER OF BUILDINGS.

WHENEVER YOU CLOSE SCHOOLS, THERE ARE LOGISTICAL COSTS .

THERE ARE ALSO COSTS IN TERMS OF RELATIONSHIPS, IN TERMS OF COMMUNITY , AND THERE ARE ALSO EFFECTS ON THE RECEIVING SCHOOLS THAT RECEIVE THE NEW STUDENTS AND STAFF, WHERE THEY MAY ALSO FEEL FEELINGS OF LOSS BECAUSE THERE ARE DIFFERENT NORMS OR MAY BE DIFFERENT CURRICULUMS.

IT'S HARD.

IT'S NOT AUTOMATIC .

>> SO PERHAPS REPURPOSING SOME OF THESE SCHOOLS.

>> WELL , THINKING ABOUT WHAT ARE THE OTHER OPTIONS, AND THEN CERTAINLY THINKING ABOUT WHAT ARE THE OTHER OPTIONS, WHAT ARE THE STRENGTHS OF THE SCHOOLS THAT YOU CAN BUILD ON.

AND THEN IF IT DOES COME TO THAT, REALLY BEING THOUGHTFUL ABOUT HOW IT'S DONE.

THE WAY THAT IT'S DONE FOR THE MESSAGING CAN MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF PEOPLE'S FEELINGS OF LOSS, AND ALSO THE LONG-TERM HARM THAT CAN BE DONE FOR BOTH STUDENTS AND TEACHERS.

>> A LOT TO CONSIDER FOR THE NEXT MAYOR, AND THE NEXT MAYOR WOULD HAVE THE KIND OF CONTROL OF HER CPS THAT THE MAYOR HAS ENJOYED OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS, ALTHOUGH IN THE FIRST TERM HERE, IT'S GOING TO BE A HYBRID SCHOOL BOARD STARTING IN TWO YEARS WHERE THE MAYOR APPOINTS 11 MEMBERS AND THEN 10 ARE ELECTED.

CAN YOU THINK THIS WILL IMPACT THE SYSTEM AND STUDENTS AND PARENTS?

>> I THINK IT WILL BE A TRANSFORMATIONAL PERIOD FOR CPS.

THE FIRST PIECES HAD US THE NEXT MAYOR HELP REIMAGINE WHAT AN INDEPENDENT CPS LOOKS LIKE IN RELATIONSHIP TO ALL THE OTHER AGENCIES IN THE CITY.

THERE HAS BEEN SOME THOUGHTS ON HOW THIS GETS UNWOUND, BUT THAT'S NOT THE RIGHT METAPHOR.

IT'S ABOUT RENEGOTIATING THE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN CPS AND ALL THE OTHER PARTS OF THE CITY GOVERNMENT.

THE SECOND PIECE OF THIS IS HOW WILL WE CARVE UP THE MAP TO CREATE A SCHOOL BOARD THAT IS REFLECTIVE OF THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE CITY .

WHAT IS THAT ELECTORAL MAP LOOK LIKE.

AND THEN THE THIRD PIECE IS HOW MUCH IMMEDIATE FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE WITH THE NEW MAYOR TRY TO MAKE, WILL THEY TRY TO OPEN A NUMBER OF CHARTERS , CLOSE A NUMBER OF SCHOOLS, FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE THE PROFILE OF THE DISTRICT BEFORE HANDING OVER CONTROL?

>> ELAINE , AT SOME POINT IT WILL BE A FULLY ELECTED SCHOOL BOARD OF 21 MEMBERS.

THERE ARE CONCERNS ABOUT 21 POLITICAL BASIS AND SPECIAL INTERESTS DOMINATING THOSE RACES.

ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THAT?

>> FOR ME WHAT I THINK ABOUT IS HOW IS IT WILL BE REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE REALLY STRONG EVIDENCE ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN SCHOOLS THAT PEOPLE CAN USE TO SAY THAT FOR TWO REASONS.

ONE, WE WILL PROBABLY HAVE VERY DIFFERENT POLITICAL PERSPECTIVES IN OUR SCHOOL BOARD.

IF WE ARE GOING TO HAVE PRODUCTIVE CONFLICTS, PRODUCTIVE CONVERSATIONS, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THE PEOPLE ARE ALL OPERATING ON THE SAME UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE SCHOOLS AND NOT HEARSAY AND ASSUMPTIONS.

THEN WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PUBLIC KNOWS WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING AT SCHOOLS SO THEN THEY CAN MAKE GOOD DECISIONS IN THEIR INTERACTIONS WITH THE SCHOOL BOARD.

>> A LOT OF FOLKS ARE CONCERNED THAT THE TEACHERS UNION MIGHT BE FINDING A LOT OF RACES OR CHARTER INTERESTS MIGHT BE FINDING A LOT OF RACES OR COMPANY THAT HAVE WON CONTRACTS WITH CPS, ALL OF THAT COULD BE AT PLAY IN THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS.

SPEAKING OF CHARTER SCHOOLS, I HAVE EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE HERE THAT SAYS THAT CHARTER SCHOOLS ARE A NET POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE ON EDUCATION IN THE URBAN SCHOOL DISTRICT.

>> I THINK ACROSS THE BOARD THE EVIDENCE IS MIXED.

THEY WORK IN SOME CASES FOR SOME PEOPLE AT SOME TIMES, SO THERE IS NOT CLEAR-CUT EVIDENCE THAT CHARTERS ARE BETTER THAN PUBLIC SCHOOLS OR THAT CHARTERS ARE ALWAYS WORSE THAN PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

THERE IS A MIXED BAG OF EVIDENCE.

I THINK THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION IS HADAWAY FULLY RESOURCE AND MEET THE NEEDS OF STUDENTS ACROSS ALL SCHOOL TYPES.

THE BASIC QUESTION IS HOW WE DRIVE RESOURCES UNDER THOSE SCHOOLS, WHATEVER TYPE THEY ARE THAT IS THE BASIC PROBLEM THAT THE NEW MAYOR AND EVENTUALLY THE BOARD IS GOING TO HAVE TO TACKLE.

>> BOTH CANDIDATES HAVE SAID ONE OF THE BIG THINGS THEY WANT TO DO IS GO TO SPRINGFIELD FOR MORE STATE MONEY.

AGAIN FOR CONTEXT, LAWMAKERS IN SPRINGFIELD SEVERAL YEARS AGO TO CHANGE THE FORMULA.

OR MONEY TO COME TO CPS.

HOW MUCH MORE MONEY DO YOU THINK STATE LAWMAKERS MIGHT BE WILLING TO ALLOCATE?

>> I'M NOT GOING TO SPEAK FOR STATE LAWMAKERS.

KUDOS.

>> IS AT THE BEST APPROACH FOR FINDING?

>> YOU KNOW, RESOURCES ARE GENERALLY HELPFUL IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO HAVE SUFFICIENT STAFFING, SUFFICIENT RESOURCING.

MONEY ALONE IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE THINGS, THOUGH .

IT IS WHERE YOU ARE PUTTING YOUR MONEY, AND ARE YOU ACTUALLY PUTTING RESOURCES INTO PROGRAMS AND SUPPORTS THAT ARE KNOWN TO HELP STUDENTS, TO SUPPORT TEACHERS?

IF YOU JUST THROW MONEY AT SCHOOLS, IT ACTUALLY CAN MAKE THINGS MORE CHAOTIC.

SO REALLY , BEING THOUGHTFUL ABOUT THE KINDS OF PROGRAMS THAT ARE PUT INTO PLACE, THE KINDS OF POLICIES, AND WHERE THOSE RESOURCES ARE GOING.

>> BOTH CANDIDATES HAVE TALKED ABOUT THAT.

PAUL VALLAS SAYS 60% OF RESOURCES ARE NOT GOING TO THE ACTUAL SCHOOLS AND ARE STAYING IN CENTRAL OFFICE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AND BRANDON JOHNSON IS AN OVERALL WE NEED MORE RESOURCES.

WHERE IS THE TRUTH IN TERMS OF HOW RESOURCES ARE BEING ALLOCATED?

>> IT IS A COMPLEX PICTURE.

CPS IS A MASS OF INSTITUTIONS AND SCHOOLS AND BUDGET AND MANY OFFICES.

IT'S ALSO ENTANGLED IN OTHER CITY AGENCIES .

MONEY GOES TO CPD AND THE PARK DISTRICT.

IT IS HARD TO PARSE OUT WHERE EVERYTHING GOES.

>> VERY QUICKLY, WE KNOW THAT STUDENT READING AND MATH SCORES WENT DOWN AS A RESULT OF THE PANDEMIC AND STOPPAGE, WHAT ABOUT CPS?

HOW ARE THE TEST SCORES LOOKING RIGHT NOW?

>> RIGHT.

MATH SCORES WENT DOWN.

WE KNOW THAT.

READING SCORES , IF YOU LOOK AT THE ASSESSMENT THAT I HAVE THE MOST FAITH IN, IT DID NOT GO DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY IN CHICAGO .

WE DO NOTE THAT DURING THE TIME OF REMOTE LEARNING, AND SINCE, YOU KNOW , THERE WERE MANY STUDENTS THAT REALLY STRUGGLED, ESPECIALLY IN PARTICULAR SCHOOLS .

WE SEE STUDENTS REALLY STRUGGLED.

REALLY THINKING ABOUT HOW WE MAKE SURE THOSE STUDENTS AND THOSE SCHOOLS HAVE THE SUPPORTS THEY NEED.

AND IT WASN'T ALL STUDENTS.

PEOPLE HAVE THIS IDEA THAT THE PANDEMIC WAS REALLY HARD FOR EVERYBODY AND IT REALLY WAS, BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT STUDENT ENGAGEMENT DURING THE PANDEMIC, WE SEE THAT IT REALLY DIFFERED BY WHAT THE GRADE LEVEL OF THE STUDENTS