♪♪ >> WE LOOK AHEAD TO 2022.

>> WE LOOK AHEAD TO 2022.

TAX CUTS, SCHOOL CURRICULUM.

PLUS, ELECTIONS AND MORE ON INDIANA WEEK IN REVIEW FOR THE WEEK ENDING DECEMBER 31ST, 2021.

>> INDIANA WEEK IN REVIEW IS MADE POSSIBL BY THE SUPPORTERS OF INDIANA PUBLIC BROADCASTING STATIONS, AND BY ICE MILLER, A FULL SERVICE LAW FIRM COMMITTED TO HELPING CLIENTS BUILD, GROW AND PROTECT THEIR INTERESTS.

MORE AT ICEMILLER.COM.

>> THIS WEEK, WE LOOK AHEAD TO THE 2022 LEGISLATIVE SESSION, IN WHICH TAX CUTS WILL LIKELY BE AT THE FOREFRONT OF DEBATE.

THROUGH THE FIRST FIVE MONTHS OF THE CURRENT FISCAL YEAR, INDIANA HAS COLLECTED 647 MILLION DOLLARS MORE THAN THE STATE BUDGET NEEDS.

AND THAT'S ON THE HEELS OF THE LAST FISCAL YEAR, WHEN THE STATE GENERATED BUDGET RESERVES OF NEARLY FOUR BILLION DOLLARS, TRIGGERING AN AUTOMATIC TAXPAYER REFUND.

>> THOSE LOFTY REVENUES HAVE LAWMAKERS CONTEMPLATING PERMANENT TAX CUTS.

SOME LEADERS HAVE EXPRESSED HESITANCE TO DO SO IN 2022.

THEY POINT OUT THAT A HUGE INFLUX OF FEDERAL FUNDS OVER THE LAST YEAR OR SO MAKE IT HARDER TO PREDICT WHEN STATE TAX REVENUES WILL SETTLE BACK TO NORMAL.

A NEW REVENUE FORECAST RELEASED THIS MONTH HAS HELPED SHED A LITTLE LIGHT ON THAT QUESTION.

>> HOW WILL THE TAX CUT DEBATE PLAY OUT IN THE 2022 SESSION?

IT'S THE FIRST QUESTION FOR OUR INDIANA WEEK IN REVIEW PANEL.

DEMOCRAT ANN DELANEY.

REPUBLICAN MIKE O'BRIEN.

JON SCHWANTES, HOST OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

AND NIKI KELLY, STATEHOUSE REPORTER FOR THE FORT WAYNE JOURNAL GAZETTE.

I'M INDIANA PUBLIC BROADCASTING STATEHOUSE REPORTER BRANDON SMITH.

MIKE O'BRIEN, INDIANA IS GOING TO BRING IN 3.3 BILLION MORE DOLLARS IN THE CURRENT BUDGET CYCLE.

CAN SENATE REPUBLICANS SAY NO TO A BIG TAX CUT IN AN ELECTION YEAR?

>> I THINK A COUPLE THINGS.

ONE, IT IS NOT BEING MOTIVATE BIDE THE ELECTION YEAR.

-- BY THE ELECTION YEAR.

IT IS BY THIS MONEY THAT WE NEVER ANTICIPATED HAVING AVAILABLE TO US.

SO ONE FROM THE REVENUE FORECAST BACK IN APRIL.

CONSISTENTLY AS YOU JUST SAID, MONTH IN AND MONTH OUT, BEATING THE REVENUES, FROM THAT ROSY FORECAST BACK IN THE SPRING.

SO WHAT'S MOTIVATING IT IS THIS MONEY THAT'S AVAILABLE.

I DO THINK ANN OVER TIME HAS BEEN CORRECT IN THAT HAVING, AT SOME POINT HAVING A SURPLUS THAT IS OBSCENELY LARGE DOES BECOME A POLITICAL LIABILITY.

BUT WHERE WE'LL DISAGREE, THAT'S THE END -- >> I WANT THAT IN WRITING, MICHAEL.

>> WHAT YOU ACTUALLY DO WITH IT.

I THINK WITH THE EMPHASIS FOR STATEHOUSE REPUBLICANS HAS BEEN WHAT'S THE RIGHT NUMBER TO HAVE KIND OF SITTING THERE TO WHETHER AND BE ABLE TO CASH FLOW WHAT WE SAW 18 MONTHS AGO, WHICH WAS MAYBE AN ANTICIPATED.

NOT BEEN THAT LONG AGO WE THOUGHT THE STATE BUDGET WAS GOING TO CRATER UNDER COVID AND SLOW DOWN THE ECONOMY, NOW WE HAVE THE OPPOSITE PROBLEM.

THE QUESTION IS FOR STATEHOUSE REPUBLICANS, WHAT'S THE RIGHT NUMBER TO RESPONSIBLY HOLD BACK AND RESERVE, WHAT DO YOU MAYBE REFUND THE TAXPAYERS, WHAT DO YOU DO WITH ANY EXCESS, THAT'S THE DEBATE.

AND THE DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE IS REPUBLICANS HAS BEEN A MATTER OF TIMING, AND UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT REVENUE IS SUSTAINABLE >> ANN DeLANEY, IN TERMS OF THE ELECTORAL IMPACT ON THIS DEBATE, NOT JUST ON THIS ISSUE, BUT MAYBE ON A FEW, WE'VE STARTED TO GET A SENSE, I THINK SOME FOLKS AT THE STATEHOUSE ARE GETTING A SENSE HOUSE REPUBLICANS ARE WORRIED ABOUT PRIMARIES, SENATE REPUBLICANS NOT SO MUCH.

WILL THAT BE A MAJOR FACTOR IN HOW THIS AND OTHER DEBATES PLAY OUT?

>> OF COURSE IT WILL.

I MEAN, MIKE'S -- MIKE IS PUTTING THE BEST SPIN ON THIS HE CAN.

BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARIES IS WHAT DRIVES THIS.

IT IS WHAT DRIVES THE ANTI-VAXING, AND THE TRYING TO CURTAIL EMPLOYERS' RIGHTS TO MAKE SAFE WORKPLACES, ALL OF THAT IS DETERMINED BY THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARIES.

SO, YES, IT WILL HAVE AN IMPACT.

NOW, THE SENATE HAS TAKEN GERRYMANDERING TO A NEW ART FORM.

AND BETWEEN WHAT THEY'VE DONE TO SUPPRESS THE VOTE AND THE TURNOUT THEY HAVE IN INDIANA, THE RISK ISN'T VERY GREAT TO THE SENATE.

IN THE HOUSE, THOUGH, ESPECIALLY IN THE AREAS AROUND MARIAN COUNTY, WHERE DEMOCRATS ARE MOVING IN, AND EXERTING A LOT MORE INFLUENCE, THERE ARE A FEW SEATS THAT COULD BE UP FOR GRABS.

THAT'S WHAT'S REALLY MOTIVATING.

THEY DON'T NEED THE NUMBER OF VOTES THEY HAVE TO BE A MAJORITY.

THEY'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO BE THE MAJORITY -- I THINK THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WOULD BE BETTER OFF IF WE HAD AN ACTUALLY TWO-PARTY SYSTEM THAT WASN'T GERRYMANDERED TO BENEFIT THEM AS WELL AS IT HAS BEEN.

>> NIKI KELLY, YOU AND I HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS OFFLINE, IF YOU WILL.

BUT YOU POINTED OUT THAT WITH THE KIND OF NUMBERS WE'RE NOW SEEING IN TERMS OF PROJECTED BUDGET RESERVES, YOU COULD CUT THE PERSONAL INCOME TAX BY A COUPLE TENTHS OF A PERCENT DOWN TO 3% AND THE -- PROPERTY TAX, BOTH THINGS HOUSE REPUBLICANS HAVE TALKED ABOUT AND STILL HAVE A LOT OF MONEY LEFT OVER, RIGHT?

>> TRUE.

THOSE TWO TOGETHER WOULD COST THE STATE ABOUT $470 MILLION ANNUALLY.

SO YOU COULD HAVE A CUT FOR BOTH BUSINESS AND INDIVIDUALS, AND STILL HAVE MONEY LEFT OVER TO BE TALKING ABOUT.

SO I DO THINK THE SENATE REPUBLICANS IN THEIR MORE CAUTIOUS APPROACH, THEY'RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IF THIS NEW REVENUE WILL, A, ACTUALLY REALIZE, AND THEN, BEFORE, IS THIS AN ONGOING THING, OR IS THIS A TEMPORARY BLIP?

BECAUSE THE LAST THING WE WANT TO DO IS, FOR INSTANCE, WE PUT ALL THAT MONEY INTO EDUCATION LAST YEAR, WE'VE SEEN TEACHER RAISES, WHAT HAPPENS IF AFTER TWO YEARS, THE REVENUE DIPS, AND THEN, WHAT, WE DON'T KEEP THE RAISES?

YOU NEED TO BE CAREFUL WHEN YOU'RE CUTTING TO MAKE SURE YOU CAN CONTINUE THE INVESTMENTS YOU'VE ALREADY MADE, MUCH LESS MAKE ADDITIOAL INVESTMENTS.

>> THE OTHER THING, TOO, WHEN MIKE PENCE CUT THE INCOME TAX A FEW YEARS AGO, YOU REMEMBER, WAS A BIG HOOPLA ABOUT THAT.

NOBODY -- INDIVIDUAL TAXPAYER FELT -- NOW HAS A $500 MILLION HIT ON THE STATE, ON THE BY ANNUAL BUDGET.

$500 MILLION GONE AND NO INDIVIDUAL TAXPAYERS FELT T. JUST LIKE THIS $125 MAY MEAN SOMETHING TO SOMEBODY WHO IS MAKING MINIMUM WAGE, BUT IT ISN'T GOING TO MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE IN LIFESTYLE OR ANYTHING ELSE TO THE VAST MAJORITY OF HOOSIERS, AND YET IT REALLY TAKES MONEY THAT COULD BE PUT IN TO THE FUTURE AWAY FROM THAT OPPORTUNITY >> JON SCHWANTES, BACK -- IT IS THE QUESTION OF TIMING HERE, AS MIKE O'BRIEN POINTED OUT, DO YOU CUT TAXES IN 2022 OR 2023 WHEN YOU WRITE A NEW BUDGET -- THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ON THE TABLE AT LEAST FOR REPUBLICANS AT THIS POINT.

SO, IF YOUR SENATE REPUBLICANS AND TRYING TO PREACH CAUTION TO WHAT NIKI KELLY JUST TALKED ABOUT, WHICH IS ARE THESE KIND OF BUDGET RESERVES AND REVENUE INCREASES SUSTAINABLE?

IS THAT A MESSAGE YOU CAN SELL TO HOOSIERS?

>> I SUPPOSE THE CAUTIONARY NOTE IS SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE SELLABLE.

BECAUSE HOOSIERS TEND TO BE GOOD STEWARDS OF THEIR RESOURCES, TRADITIONALLY, HISTORICALLY, THAT'S THE REPUTATION THEY LIKE PEOPLE WHO ARE -- EMPLOY COMMON SENSE MEASURES.

I THINK PEOPLE WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT A BIG TAX CUT, OR ANY KIND OF TAX CUT NOW THAT'S PERMANENT CAN POINT OUT, A, THAT THINGS CAN CHANGE QUITE A BIT, AS WE HAVE SEEN, BUT ALSO THEY CAN POINT TO THOSE MANY REPUBLICANS IN THE PAST SESSION, AND EVEN NOW WHO SAY WE DON'T WANT TO INVEST IN A LOT OF BIG PROGRAMS, AND NIKI ALLUDED TO THIS WITH TEACHER SALARY INCREASES.

WE DON'T WANT TO PUT A LOT OF MONEY INTO A PROGRAM AND FIND OUT IT IS NOT SUSTAINABLE, THEN WHAT DO WE DO?

WE GO BACK AND TELL PEOPLE THEY CAN'T HAVE THEIR MONEY, WE GOT TO CLAW IS BACK.

THE SAME ARGUMENT COULD BE MADE FOR A PERMANENT TAX INCREASE.

IF YOU GRANT A PERMANENT TAX INCREASE NOW, AND THINGS DIP, AND WE -- ALREADY SORT OF STIPULATED THAT THERE IS NOT A GREAT APPETITE IN THE CURRENT GENERAL ASSEMBLY FOR RAISING TAXES, BASICALLY, IT BECOMES A PERMANENT MEASURE THAT THE STATE WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITH, WHETHER THE FORTUNES ARE GOOD OR WHETHER THINGS SOUR.

SO I THINK THOSE WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT RASH MOVEMENT COULD POINT OUT THAT JUST AS MIGHT NOT BE WISE TO INVEST HEAVILY IN PROGRAMS THAT AREN'T SUSTAINABLE, IT MIGHT NOT BE ENTIRELY PRUDENT TO GRANT A TAX CUT PERMANENTLY THAT COULD TURN OUT TO BE AN UNFORTUNATE MOVE IN THE NEXT BIENNIAL >> ALL RIGHT.

INDIANA LAWMAKERS TOOK TESTIMONY TWICE, BEFORE SESSION EVEN STARTED, ON A BILL THAT WOULD EFFECTIVELY BAN PRIVATE COMPANIES FROM ENFORCING COVID-19 VACCINE MANDATES.

THE POLITICS AT PLAY BEHIND THE MEASURE, THOUGH, CAN BE A BIT TRICKY.

>> THE PEOPLE ADVOCATING LOUDEST AGAINST VACCINE MANDATES - AND WHO ARE GENERALLY IN FAVOR OF THE BILL - TRADITIONALLY SUPPORT REPUBLICANS.

BUT THE STATE'S BUSINESS COMMUNITY ALSO USUALLY BACKS THE GOP AND TOP BUSINESSES ARE LINING UP AGAINST THE LEGISLATION.

POLITICAL SCIENTIST ANDREW DOWNS SAYS THERE'S BEEN A PUSH-AND-PULL BETWEEN THOSE TWO SIDES FOR A WHILE.

>> ANDREW DOWNS: THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HISTORICALLY HAS BEEN THE PRO-BUSINESS PARTY AND THEY CERTAINLY STILL FALL INTO THAT CATEGORY BUT OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS, THEY HAVE BEGUN TO FOCUS QUITE A BIT ON INDIVIDUALS AND INDIVIDUALISM.

>> DOWNS SAYS A MAJOR FACTOR AT PLAY HERE IS THAT WITH UNCOMPETITIVE GENERAL ELECTION RACES, REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS HAVE TO WORRY MOST ABOUT PRIMARIES AND SO MUST APPEASE PARTICULARLY CONSERVATIVE VOTERS.

>> ANDREW DOWNS: THOSE OF US WHO ARE SORT OF ON THE INSIDE, WE'VE HEARD STORIES ABOUT SOME OF THE MORE CONSERVATIVE MEMBERS OF THE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS ACTUALLY GOING OUT AND RECRUITING CANDIDATES.

>> HOUSE REPUBLICANS ARE EXPECTED TO MOVE QUICKLY TO PASS THE BILL ONCE SESSION BEGINS IN JANUARY.

>> ANN DELANEY, IF THIS BILL BECOMES LAW IS IT EVIDENCE THAT THE INFLUENCE OF THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE IS WANING?

>> I THINK ITS EVIDENCE THAT THE RIGHT WING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS IN CONTROL.

I'VE THOUGHT THAT FOR SOME TIME.

AND IF THE INDIANA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE WANTS TO TAKE A RATIONALE INTELLIGENT SAFETY CONSCIOUS APPROACH, THAT IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH THE RIGHT WING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

SO I THINK THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FRANKLY IS OUT OF STEP WITH TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN VALUES, AND CERTAINLY THE CHAMBER.

AND ANYBODY, FRANKLY, WHO THINKS AND IS LOOKING A THE THIS COVID CRISIS THAT WE HAVE, AND WE HAVE IT AS A CRISIS, LARGELY BECAUSE THE SAME RIGHT WING PART OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WON'T GET VACCINATED.

I MEAN, WE'VE ERADICATED POLIO, SMALLPOX, WE COULD ERADICATE THIS VIRUS IF PEOPLE WOULD GET VACCINATED.

THEY WON'T DO IT.

IT IS NOT RATIONALE.

IT'S NOT INTELLIGENT.

IT IS NOT CERTAINLY PART OF THEIR CIVIC DUTY FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE, AND I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO BE OUT OF STEP WITH A LOT MORE OF MODERATE REPUBLICANS GOING FORWARD, BECAUSE ANDREW DOWNS IS CORRECT, THE PROBLEM FOR REPUBLICAN ELECTED OFFICIALS IS THE PRIMARY, BECAUSE GERRYMANDERING HAS BEEN SO SUCCESSFUL AND SO HAS VOTER SUPPRESSION BEEN SUCCESSFUL.

SO THE THREAT IS ALWAYS FROM THE RIGHT.

FOR CONGRESS, AND FOR THE LEGISLATIVE RACES, THE THREAT IS FROM THE RIGHT.

>> MIKE O'BRIEN, IS THE INDIANA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE'S INFLUENCE AT THE STATEHOUSE STARTING TO WAYNE AS WE SEE DEBATES LIKE THIS ONE PLAYING OUT MORE AND MORE?

>> I THOUGHT ANDY DOWNS HAD A GOOD OBSERVATION ON INDIVIDUALISM.

CLEARLY -- A MUCH STRONGER STREAK AND FOLLOWING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAN MAYBE THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE OR CHAMBERS OF COMMERCE NATIONWIDE ARE USED TO.

WHAT ANN DESCRIBES AS A PULLING TO THE RIGHT IN THESE PRIMARIES, THAT'S -- THAT IS CERTAINLY A DYNAMIC HERE, A DYNAMIC IN INDIANA, BECAUSE INDIANA IS A RIGHT LEANING STATE, AND HAS BECOME MORE RIGHT LEANING IN THE LAST DECADE.

>> JERRY -- >> THEY LOST IN THE PRIMARY BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T FAR LEFT ENOUGH, OR THEY LOST IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, THE STATE REDREW THE MAPS AND THEY'RE SAFELY DEMOCRATIC.

YOU DRIVE TO THE WEST AND YOU SEE A GERRYMANDERED ILLINOIS.

>> SO YOU ADMIT INDIANA A GERRYMANDERED?

>> I THINK YOU'RE FREE TO FILE A LAWSUIT IN THAT REGARD, ANN, WHICH NO ONE HAS DONE.

>> THE SUPREME COURT SAID THEY DON'T RECOGNIZE GERRYMANDERING.

>> NOT GOING TO COMMENT ON THE CHAMBER NECESSARILY OTHER THAN THEY ARE -- IT'S NOT LIKE THE CHAMBER IS DEFERRING AWAY FROM THE RIGHT PART OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND NOW THEY AGREE WITH THE DEMOCRATS.

DEMOCRATS WANT THE EMPLOYER MANDATE, THE CHAMBER IS SAYING E DON'T WANT ANY OF T. LET THESE GUYS MAKE UP THEIR OWN MIND.

AND THAT IS IN STEP WITH AS WE SAW AT BALL STATE LAST WEEK WITH 40% OF HOOSIERS WHO AGREED WITH THAT POSITION, 28% WHO WANTED THEM OUT, WANTED THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF THIS ALL TOGETHER.

SO I THINK THE HOUSE REPUBLICANS IN THIS REGARD ARE TRYING TO THREAD A NEEDLE BETWEEN INDIVIDUAL AND EMPLOYER RIGHTS.

>> JON SCHWANTES, I THINK MAYBE ANOTHER THING THAT'S POSSIBLY AT PLAY HERE, TOO, THOUGH, AS LAWMAKERS MAKE THESE DECISIONS IS IN THE POLITICAL REALM, TRADITIONALLY, IT IS THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY THAT PONIES UP A LOT MORE MONEY WHEN IT COMES TO FUNDRAISING, WILL LAWMAKERS TAKE THAT SORT OF THING INTO ACCOUNT OR JUST COUNT ON THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY AND CHAMBERS OF COMMERCE BACKING THEM NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS WITH THIS INDIVIDUAL BILL?

>> THEY WOULD IGNORE THE MONEY AND THE IMPLICATIONS AT THEIR OWN PERIL.

LIKE IT OR NOT, MONEY IS A HUGE DRIVER IN OUR PROCESS, BECOMING MORE SO ALL THE TIME.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE SEEING NOW LEGISLATIVE RACES THAT USED TO BE BANK ROLLED WITH YOU COULD HAVE -- CRACK OPEN YOUR KIDS' PIGGY BANK AND PAY FOR YOUR CAMPAIGN.

NOW, IT JUST DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

NOW YOU'RE SEEING THE KIND OF PRICE TAGS ASSOCIATED WITH NON-STATE-WIDE RACES THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN UNHEARD OF 20 YEARS AGO, EVEN 10 YEARS AGO.

SO MONEY TALKS, MONEY IS A DRIVER.

AND I THINK THAT IS AN ACCURATE ASSESSMENT, BRANDON, THAT YOU MAKE IN TERMS OF THE CHAMBER AND THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY IT REPRESENTS.

THESE ARE LARGE EMPLOYERS, THEY PARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE WHEREWITHAL TO BECOME ENGAGED POLITICALLY, NOT JUST THROUGH EMAILS AND TEXTS, AND SORT OF THE VITRIOL THAT WE SEE SO OFTEN IN THE VOLUME, BUT ACTUALLY CAN SPEAK QUIETLY, BUT EFFECTIVELY, IT SEEMS TO ME, BY SUPPORTING CANDIDATES FINANCIALLY AS THEY SEEK ELECTION.

SO I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING TO GO AWAY.

>> NIKI KELLY, THOUGH, THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY DOESN'T LIKE IT, THEY WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO LEAVE THEM ALONE.

AND YET THE PEOPLE CRYING LOUDEST FOR A BILL LIKE THIS DON'T LIKE THIS PARTICULAR BILL BECAUSE THEY WANT A 100% YOU CANNOT HAVE ANY SORT OF MANDATE WHATSOEVER, AND THIS BILL DOESN'T GO THAT FAR.

ARE HOUSE REPUBLICANS AT THIS POINT, BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER SENATE REPUBLICANS WILL SUPPORT THIS.

ARE HOUSE REPUBLICANS SETTING THEMSELVES UP TO FAIL WITH THIS PARTICULAR BILL?

>> I MEAN, WITH A CERTAIN SUB SEGMENT, THEY ARE.

ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO TESTIFIED AT THAT -- THE LATEST HEARING I THOUGHT HAD A GREAT POINT, SAID REPUBLICANS ACT LIKE THEY HAVE A TWO-PARTY SYSTEM WITHIN THEIR OWN PARTY.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING PLAY OUT RIGHT NOW.

AND SO YOU HAVE TO WONDER.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> YOU HAVE TO WONDER IF THEY PASSED SORT OF A COMPROMISED BILL, EVEN THOUGH IT ACTUALLY PROVES THE SITUATION FROM A CONSERVATIVE STANDPOINT, ON VACCINE MANDATES, YOU KNOW, IT DOESN'T END IT ALL TOGETHER.

AND IS THAT ENOUGH FOR THEM TO BE MAD ENOUGH TO GO ON A PRIMARY SOMEWHERE?

>> ALL RIGHT.

INDIANA IS PREPARING, LIKE MANY STATES, TO DEBATE SCHOOL CURRICULUM IN THE UPCOMING SESSION, AMID A NATIONAL DEBATE ABOUT WHAT SCHOOLS SHOULD BE TEACHING WHEN IT COMES TO RACE, EQUALITY, DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION.

TIED UP IN THAT DEBATE IS “SOCIAL EMOTIONAL LEARNING.” EDUCATORS AND EXPERTS AGREE IT PLAYS AN ESSENTIAL ROLE IN PREPARING STUDENTS FOR LIFE AFTER HIGH SCHOOL.

AND INDIANA INCLUDES SOME S-E-L COMPETENCIES IN THE STATE'S EMPLOYABILITY SKILLS STANDARDS - THINGS LIKE HOW TO WORK IN A TEAM, AND MANAGE ONE'S OWN EMOTIONS.

>> INDIANA ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD ROKITA'S LATEST UPDATE TO HIS PARENTS' BILL OF RIGHTS DOCUMENT SUGGESTS, IN PART, THAT S-E-L IS BEING MISUSED IN SCHOOLS.

IT SUGGESTS PARENTS SHOULD PUSH STATE LAWMAKERS TO CHANGE THAT IF THEY BELIEVE THOSE STANDARDS ARE BEING USED TO TEACH CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

>> DEREK MARSHALL IS THE DIRECTOR OF INDIANA'S SOUTHEASTERN CAREER CENTER.

HE SAYS THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY DO - AND CAREER-TECHNICAL EDUCATORS WERE USING S-E-L STRATEGIES BEFORE THE STATE MADE THE EMPLOYABILITY STANDARDS.

>> DEREK MARSHALL: CTE CLASSES ARE EDUCATORS OF THE WHOLE CHILD - WE TEACH THEM INTERVIEWING SKILLS, WE TEACH THEM JOB COPING SKILLS, WE TEACH THEM HOW TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS - SO IT WAS SEAMLESS FOR US.

>> HE AND OTHER C-T-E EDUCATORS ALSO SAY EMPLOYERS NOTICE WHEN STUDENTS HAVE SOCIAL AND EMOTIONAL SKILLS TO COPE IN THE WORKPLACE - AND, WHEN THEY DON'T.

>> NIKI KELLY, WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SCHOOL CURRICULUM DEBATE, HOW EXACTING AND SPECIFIC DO YOU THINK LAWMAKERS ARE GOING TO BE.

>> I THINK IT IS CLEAR THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BAN CRT.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO SORT OF GO THAT ROUTE.

THEY'RE DEFINITELY LOOKING AT CURRICULUM TRANSPARENCY, WHETHER THAT MEANS, YOU KNOW, DOES A TEACHER HAVE TO POST THEIR SYLLABUS EVERY DAY, EVERY CLASSROOM, INSTRUCTION LIKE EVERY BOOK THEY READ, EVERY WORKSHEET THEY USE, I THINK THAT'S WHERE WE'RE GOING, AND ALSO THE IDEA THAT WE WOULD HAVE A PARENT INVOLVEMENT ON LOCAL COMMITTEES WHEN THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT CURRICULUM OR BOOKS IN THE LIBRARY, THAT KIND OF THING.

I THINK WE'LL SEE SOME OF THAT >> JON SCHWANTES, IN TERMS OF THAT IDEA OF TRANSPARENCY, SEEMS SOME OF THAT MIGHT FALL ON TEACHERS TO DO MORE.

WE ALREADY HAVE A TEACHER SHORTAGE, WE'RE LIKELY TO CONTINUE TO HAVE A TEACHER SHORTAGE.

WE'RE HAVING TROUBLE ATTRACTING PEOPLE TO THE PROFESSION.

DOES THAT MAKE IT HARDER?

>> I THINK SO.

I MEAN, IT IS A GOOD THING TEACHERS RECEIVED A POT OF MONEY IN THE LAST -- THE CURRENT BUDGET, AND THAT MANY DISTRICTS ARE PASSING THAT ON TO TEACHERS, BECAUSE IT WOULD TAKE ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD, I THINK, TO PERHAPS DEAL WITH SOME OF THE HEADACHES THAT THIS ISSUE THAT THIS LEGISLATION MIGHT INTRODUCE IF IN FACT THERE IS AN ONUS PLACED ON TEACHERS TO, AS YOU SUGGEST, POST THINGS DAILY.

THAT'S NOT JUST A ONE-WAY TRANSACTION, I PRESUME THAT WOULD BE POSTING IT DAILY AND THEN BUILDING ALL THE INQUIRIES, AND COMPLAINTS OR SUGGESTIONS.

I MEAN, IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE -- WHAT PROBABLY A LOT OF TEACHERS -- WHAT MOTIVATED THEMD TO GET INTO THE BUSINESS IN THE FIRST PLACE, AND WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE?

I MEAN, I'M BEING ONLY SOMEWHAT FLIPPANT HERE?

COACHING, WE HAVE A LOT OF KIDS INVOLVED IN EXTRA CURRICULUM LARS AND SOMETIMES WE PARENTS WONDER WHAT THOSE COACHES WERE THINKING WITH THEIR STARTING LINEUPS AND SUBSTITUTION PATTERNS.

I THINK TRANSPARENCY COULD BE GOOD THERE, TOO.

A LOT OF TIMES I FELT THE NEED TO WEIGH IN ON COACH'S DECISIONS, NOW I MIGHT BE OBLIGED TO DO SO.

MIKE O'BRIEN, WE TALKED ON THE LAST TOPIC ABOUT VOTER AND CITIZEN ANGER DRIVING SOME OF THESE THINGS.

AND WE'RE CERTAINLY SEEING THAT ON THIS ISSUE ABOUT SCHOOL CURRICULUM, AND RACE AND ALL OF THAT IN THE CLASSROOM.

WOULD THE MEASURES THAT NIKI IS TALKING ABOUT, JUST MORE TRANSPARENCY, IS THAT GOING TO AP APIECE -- APPEASE THAT VOTER ANGER?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

THE RISK YOU RUN IS WHAT JON DESCRIBED, YOU PUT A PILE OF REQUIREMENTS ON TEACHERS TO MAINTAIN A WEBSITE, WHAT THEY'RE DOING AND SAYING TO THE KID EVERY DAY AND HANDING OUT, WHAT CHAPTER OF THE BOOK THEY'RE IN.

THESE ARE ALL THINGS THAT TRADITIONALLY CONSERVATIVE PARENTS BELIEVE THAT THE PARENTS OUGHT TO BE ENGAGED IN IT AT HOME ANYWAY.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE MOST FUN CLASSES FOR MY HIGH SCHOOL SON THAT I'VE ENJOYED HIS FIRST SEMESTER IN HIGH SCHOOL HAS BEEN A SOCIAL EMOTIONING SIDE, WHICH ISN'T EXTREME, IT IS LIKE SOFT SKILL DEVELOPMENT.

I THOUGHT IT'S BEEN, WHETHER IT'S PRACTICING A JOB INTERVIEW WITH HIM OR SOMETHING ELSE, SEEMS INTERESTING TO ME THAT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THE SCHOOLS HAVE BEEN REQUIRED TO GO TEACH, BECAUSE THE STUDENTS WERE LACKING THEM, WERE WHAT CONSERVATIVES WOULD -- TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVES WOULD ARGUE ABOUT, WHICH THEY WEREN'T LEARNING AT HOME, THEY DECRY THAT, THE SCHOOLS HAD TO FILL THE BLANKS, TO TEACH -- MAYBE THEY WERE LEARNED IN OTHER PLACES, WHETHER IT WAS FROM THEIR FAMILY OR JUST THROUGH LIFE EXPERIENCE, THEY WERE GETTING SOMEWHERE ELSE.

SO, IT'S GOTTEN EXTREMELY, OBVIOUSLY THESE SCHOOL BOARD -- YOU SEE THEM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

THIS ISN'T AN INDIANA THING, I THINK IT IS AN OUTGROWTH AND A REDIRECTION OF ANGST AND ANGER THAT HAS BEEN AROUND NOW FOR A LONG TIME.

>> ANN DeLANEY, WE'VE SEEN IN OTHER STATES STATE GOVERNMENTS GO AS FAR AS BANNING WORDS AND PHRASES FROM THE CLASSROOM, TEACHERS IN TEXAS WORRIED ABOUT TEACHING ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST BECAUSE THEY MIGHT HAVE TO TEACH ABOUT THE OPPOSING VIEW, WHICH WOULD BE THE NAZIS, ARE WE UNLIKELY TO SEE ANYTHING QUITE THAT SEVERE HERE IN INDIANA?

>> I DON'T KNOW, YOU ASKED WHETHER THE ANGER WOULD BE APPEASED?

THE ANSWER IS NO, TODD ROKITA IS DELIBERATE IS STIRRING IT UP, STARTED WITH THE CRITICAL RACE THEORY, WASN'T TAUGHT IN K-12.

GOES ON WITH THIS.

BEEN SO MUCH OUT THERE ABOUT CRITICAL RACE NOT BEING TAUGHT, NOW HE'S FOUND ANOTHER BULL'S EYE FOR HIM TO STIR UP THE ANGER, AND THIS IS BEING DONE BY REPUBLICANS ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY.

WE COULD GO BACK TO -- YOU TALK ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST AND THE NAZIS, WE COULD GO BACK TO BURNING BOOKS UNDER THIS THEORY.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS WE HAD SAVERY IN THIS COUNTRY, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS WE HAVE RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY, AND IGNORING THAT AND NOT TALKING ABOUT IT GIVES A MISINFORMED VIEW OF THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY TO STUDENTS.

SO, YOU KNOW, TRANSPARENCY SOUNDS GOOD, BUT WE'RE HAVING ENOUGH TROUBLE ATTRACTING TEACHERS, AND PAYING TEACHERS.

AND PUTTING THIS OTHER BURDEN ON TOP OF THEM, IT SEEMS TO ME, MAYBE SOME OF THESE LEGISLATORS OUGHT TO TRY GOING IN THE CLASSROOM AND SEE HOW HARD IT IS TO TEACH, AND MAYBE THEY WOULD GET OUT OF THE CLASSROOM WHICH THEY NEED TO BE >> NIKI KELLY, I WANT TO CIRCLE BACK TO YOU AND ASK THE SAME THING WE TALKED ABOUT THE LAST TWO TOPICS, THE ROLE THAT CONCERNS ABOUT PRIMARY ELECTIONS HAVE -- ARE PLAYING IN STATEHOUSE IN 2022, WILL THAT BE A FACTOR HERE AS WE'VE SEEN A DIFFERENCE ABOUT THOSE FEARS BETWEEN THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE?

>> YEAH, I'M SURE IT IS.

ALTHOUGH THE ONES WHO WERE PRIMARY -- YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT TO THINK ABOUT HOW THEY WOULD PUT THAT IN A PIECE OF LEGISLATION.

ONE THING TO JUST SAY I'M AGAINST SOMETHING, IT IS ANOTHER THING TO WRITE IT IN A WAY THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY MAKE IT WORK IN GOVERNANCE >> YOU TALKED ABOUT THE IDEA OF THAT DEFINITION -- WELL, FINALLY, IT'S THAT TIME OF YEAR WHEN PEOPLE MAKE NEW YEAR'S RESOLUTIONS.

MIKE O'BRIEN, WHAT SHOULD INDIANA'S NEW YEAR'S RESOLUTION BE?

>> WATCH ANN'S HEAD SPIN OFF, SHE LIKES TO PUT ME ON A CORNER IN THIS ISSUE.

I'VE -- PARTNERSHIP IN INDIANA AND THE COUNTRY IS MORE PARTISANSHIP, HOW ABOUT ON THESE NEW MAPS, EVERYONE GOES AND VOTES IN THE PRIMARY >> I LIKE THAT ONE.

ANN DeLANEY, NEW YEAR'S RESOLUTION.

>> I LIKE THAT.

TO INVEST IN THE FUTURE, BUILD BACK BETTER.

>> ALL RIGHT.

OUR PANEL IS ANN DeLANEY, REPUBLICAN MIKE O'BRIEN, JON SCHWANTES OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS, AND NIKI KELLY OF THE FORT WAYNE JOURNAL GAZETTE.

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I'M BRANDON SMITH.

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