>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Nash: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, THE CONSENT DECREE IS OVER.

ALBUQUERQUE'S POLICE CHIEF WAVES GOOD-BYE TO THE FEDS AND MAKES HIS CASE FOR LOCAL CONTROL OF APD.

AND-- >> Renetta: WE ALL WANT TO HAVE A COMMUNITY WHERE WE FEEL SAFE.

NOT JUST THE OFFICERS, BUT I THINK THOSE OF US THAT RESIDE IN THE COMMUNITY.

>> Nash: THE PARENTS OF A LONG-AGO APD SHOOTING VICTIM RECOUNT THE LONG ROAD TO REFORM.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

I'M NASH JONES.

FOR 11 YEARS, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN FORCING THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT TO CHANGE, UNTIL NOW.

JUST LAST WEEK, U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE JAMES BROWNING DISMISSED THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT PUT IN PLACE AFTER THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE FOUND AN UNCONSTITUTIONAL PATTERN OF EXCESSIVE FORCE AT APD.

THE INVESTIGATION FOLLOWED A LONG STRING OF FATAL SHOOTINGS AND COMMUNITY OUTCRY.

HEADS UP.

YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR THE COURT DOCUMENT THAT SPELLED OUT SOME OF THE OVERSIGHT CALLED A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT THINGS IN OUR DISCUSSION OF IT.

A CONSENT DECREE, A SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT, OR EVEN THE CASA, WHICH STANDS FOR COURT-APPROVED SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT.

THEY'RE ALL BASICALLY INTERCHANGEABLE.

NO MATTER WHAT YOU CALL IT, IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE FOR A CONTROVERSIAL DECADE-LONG POLICE REFORM EFFORT IN THE STATE'S LARGEST CITY TO END WITH A WHIMPER.

AND WE HERE AT NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS ARE WELL POSITIONED TO TAKE THE DEEP DIVE WE FEEL IT DESERVES.

SO, WE'VE DECIDED TO MAKE THIS A TWO-PARTER.

THIS WEEK, WE'LL LOOK AT HOW WE GOT HERE AND THE SUCCESSES FAILURES AND QUESTIONS THAT REMAIN.

WE'LL HEAR FROM A CITY COUNCILOR, A LOCAL CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER, AND OF COURSE ALBUQUERQUE'S CHIEF OF POLICE HAROLD MEDINA.

>> Medina: WE NEEDED TO BE REFORMED.

WITHOUT A DOUBT.

WE HAD TO CHANGE THE WAY WE WERE DOING BUSINESS.

AND IT WASN'T JUST ABOUT THE USE OF FORCE.

WE WOULDN'T HAVE EVER DONE IT ON OUR OWN.

WE NEEDED SOMETHING TO FORCE US TO DO THAT.

>> Nash: THEN NEXT WEEK, WE'LL LOOK AHEAD TO WHAT POLICING IN ALBUQUERQUE MIGHT LOOK LIKE NOW THAT THE FEDS HAVE GONE.

WE BEGIN THIS WEEK WITH WHAT THIS IS REALLY ALL ABOUT, PEOPLE DIRECTLY AFFECTED BY POLICE VIOLENCE HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

APD DETECTIVES C.J.

BROWN AND RICHARD HILGER JUMPED A WALL INTO A BACKYARD IN TAYLOR RANCH.

NEITHER WAS WEARING A POLICE UNIFORM.

WITHIN MINUTES, BROWN SHOT 27-YEAR-OLD CHRISTOPHER TORRES THREE TIMES IN THE BACK, KILLING HIM.

TORRES HAD BEEN LIVING WITH SCHIZOPHRENIA FOR YEARS.

IN 2014, A STATE JUDGE RULED THAT THE OFFICERS THEMSELVES CREATED THE DANGER THAT DAY AND ORDERED THE CITY TO PAY CHRISTOPHER'S PARENTS, STEVE AND RENETTA TORRES, $6 MILLION TO SETTLE A LAWSUIT.

BY THEN, THEY HAD BECOME AMONG THE CITY'S MOST PROMINENT VOICES IN A SWELLING MOVEMENT PUSHING FOR REFORM AT APD.

EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR SITS DOWN WITH THE TORRESES TO TALK ABOUT WHAT THEY LOST 14 YEARS AGO, AND TO GET THEIR PERSPECTIVES ON THE DECADE-PLUS OF TRYING TO CLEAN UP THE DEPARTMENT THAT KILLED THEIR SON.

>> Jeff: RENETTA, STEVE, IT IS SO GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.

IT'S BEEN LONG TIME.

AND WELCOME TO NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Renetta: IT'S NICE TO SEE YOU TOO.

THANK YOU.

>> Steve: GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> Jeff: OKAY.

LET'S GO BACK TO 2011.

YOURS WAS NOT KIND OF THE USUAL FAMILY THAT FOLKS MIGHT ASSOCIATE WITH POLICE VIOLENCE.

RENETTA, I'D LIKE TO START WITH YOU.

WHAT WAS GOING ON IN YOUR LIFE AT THAT TIME, AND WHAT WERE YOUR PERCEPTIONS AND ATTITUDES TOWARD POLICE?

>> Renetta: I THINK AT THAT POINT IN 2011 THINGS WERE GOING WELL.

CHRISTOPHER WAS IN A STABLE POSITION.

>> Jeff: YOUR SON CHRISTOPHER.

>> Renetta: OUR SON CHRISTOPHER.

HE HAD A JOB.

HE WAS DOING WELL.

ACTUALLY, I THINK WE DESCRIBED HIM AS HIGH-FUNCTIONING.

THERE WERE A LOT OF TRIALS THROUGH MEDICATIONS AND DOSAGES, ET CETERA.

BUT I THINK WE FINALLY HIT ON THAT RIGHT MEDICATION AT THE RIGHT DOSAGE.

SO, CHRISTOPHER WAS DOING WELL.

AS FAR AS OUR PERCEPTION OF THE POLICE, I THINK IT WAS A VERY COMMON ONE.

WE GREW UP IN A SMALL TOWN WHERE POLICE ARE RESPECTED, BUT THEY'RE ALSO PART OF THE COMMUNITY-- INTEGRAL PARTS OF THE COMMUNITY.

SO, THEY KNOW THE COMMUNITY AND THE PEOPLE IN IT.

AND IF THERE ARE ANY SPECIAL SITUATIONS, SPECIAL NEEDS, CERTAINLY THEY'RE AWARE OF IT.

I THINK OVERALL OUR IMPRESSION OF POLICE WAS FAVORABLE.

I DO HAVE TO SAY, AND I THINK I SAID THIS BEFORE IN PREVIOUS INTERVIEWS BACK IN 2011, '12, '13, '14.

WE HAD BECOME DESENSITIZED TO THE NEWS.

SO, EVERY NIGHT ON THE NEWS YOU HEAR STORIES ABOUT APD AND SHOOTINGS AND THERE'S ALWAYS THIS SIDE STATEMENT THAT THE PERSON THAT WAS KILLED HAD A CRIMINAL RECORD.

SO, YOUR IMMEDIATE REACTION IS TO, ONE, BELIEVE THEM.

AND, TWO, TO THINK THERE HAD TO HAVE BEEN SITUATIONS, CIRCUMSTANCES THAT WERE REQUIRING SUCH EGREGIOUS ACTION ON THE PART OF APD.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

IN APRIL 2011, STEVE, I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU THIS QUESTION.

ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DETECTIVES C.J.

BROWN AND RICHARD HILGER FATALLY SHOT YOUR SON CHRISTOPHER IN THE BACKYARD OF YOUR FAMILY HOME.

WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER ABOUT THAT DAY?

>> Steve: YOU KNOW, IT'S FUNNY.

BECAUSE MY MEMORY, AS I GET OLDER, IS FADING.

I DON'T REMEMBER A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT I SHOULD REMEMBER.

BUT MY MEMORY OF THAT DAY IS STILL PRETTY-- VERY VIVID, VERY CLEAR.

I CAN REMEMBER ALMOST EVERYTHING.

WHO WAS THERE, WHAT THEY SAID.

THE MEMORIES ARE STILL THERE, BURNED INTO MY MEMORY BANKS.

YOU KNOW, IT STARTED OUT AS A PLAIN, ORDINARY DAY.

I LEFT TO WORK.

I STILL REMEMBER THE LAST THING CHRISTOPHER SAID TO ME WAS THAT HIS WRIST HURT.

AND I SAID, TAKE IT EASY WHEN YOU GO TO WORK.

AND THEN, A FEW HOURS LATER, ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE.

>> Jeff: RENETTA, AS YOU'RE SITTING HERE ALMOST 15 YEARS LATER NOW, IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE WE'VE HAD THIS CONVERSATION.

BUT WHAT IS MISSING FROM YOUR FAMILY?

>> Renetta: WELL, I THINK THE STARK REMINDER FOR ALL FAMILIES WHO LOSE A MEMBER-- ALL MEMBERS, NOT JUST A CHILD.

THERE IS THIS VACANT HOLE WHERE THIS BEAUTIFUL PERSON HAD ONCE BEEN AN INTEGRAL PART OF YOUR FAMILY.

AND I THINK, CERTAINLY, THAT'S HOW WE FEEL.

AND IT ISN'T JUST ON MAJOR HOLIDAYS THAT SOME PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO IMAGINE.

IT'S EVERY DAY.

I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING THAT OCCURS EVERY DAY THAT BRINGS CHRISTOPHER BACK TO MIND.

WHAT WE'VE TRIED AS A FAMILY, STEVEN AND I AND OUR SONS AND THEIR FAMILIES, IS JUST TO HONOR CHRISTOPHER'S MEMORY AND TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN MAKE A MEANINGFUL CONTRIBUTION AT WHATEVER LEVEL IT IS.

BY OUR ACTIVITIES, THE ORGANIZATIONS WE BELONG TO, ET CETERA.

HOW CAN WE, ONE, AND PRIMARILY HONOR HIS MEMORY.

BUT WHAT CAN WE DO TO HELP IMPROVE THE COMMUNITY WE LIVE IN SO IT IS A BETTER PLACE.

>> Jeff: RENETTA, AFTER THOSE TWO OFFICERS KILLED CHRISTOPHER, YOU TWO JOINED WITH A NUMBER OF OTHER FAMILIES WHO HAD LOST LOVED ONES TO POLICE VIOLENCE AND OTHER INTERESTED MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY TO FORM A COALITION TO DEMAND REFORM AT APD.

TAKE ME BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF WHEN THAT FORMED AND WHAT THE PLAN WAS TO TRY TO GET SOMETHING DONE.

>> Renetta: ACTUALLY, I THINK THE GRASSROOTS GROUP WAS FORMED SHORTLY AFTER ALAN GOMEZ WAS KILLED.

IN THE WEEK OR TWO AFTER HE WAS KILLED, HIS DAD MIKE GOMEZ MADE CONTACT WITH ALL OF THE FAMILY MEMBERS AND BROUGHT US TOGETHER AT HIS HOME TO TALK ABOUT WHAT KIND OF ACTION COULD WE TAKE TO BRING ATTENTION, I MEAN FULL ATTENTION, TO THE SITUATION WITH THE POLICE OFFICERS AT APD.

AND I THINK TO A CERTAIN DEGREE, WE WERE LITTLE BIT NAIVE.

WE ACTUALLY THOUGHT IF WE SHARED OUR STORIES WITH THE MAYOR AND WITH THE CITY COUNCIL THAT THERE WOULD BE AN HONEST RECEPTION OF WHAT WAS GOING ON IN OUR COMMUNITY.

INSTEAD, WE WERE MET WITH RESISTANCE.

I'LL USE RESISTANCE BECAUSE THERE'S PROBABLY A STRONGER WORD.

BUT WE MET RESISTANCE.

AND I DON'T KNOW HOW ANY REASONABLE PERSON COULD BELIEVE THAT AFTER THESE NUMEROUS PRESENTATIONS AT NUMEROUS CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS IN DIFFERENT FORMATS TO TELL THE STORIES OF THESE INDIVIDUALS THAT WERE KILLED BY ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT, HOW THEY COULD NOT FEEL SOMETHING.

HOW CAN YOU BE SO COLD AND UNABLE TO EVEN JUST SYMPATHIZE?

MAYBE NOT EMPATHIZE, BUT SYMPATHIZE.

WITH THAT SAID, WE WENT MONTHS AND MONTHS TRYING TO GET THE ATTENTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL, OF THE MAYOR.

I THINK OUR BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THAT WAS THEY DIDN'T THINK THERE WAS A PROBLEM.

SO, IF YOU DON'T THINK THERE'S A PROBLEM, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO ADDRESS IT.

YOU'RE JUST GOING TO HOPE THAT ALL OF US GO AWAY AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THEY THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO DO EVENTUALLY.

IF THEY IGNORED US LONG ENOUGH WE WOULD GO AWAY.

YOU DON'T SUFFER THAT KIND OF LOSS AND GO AWAY.

NOT IF YOU THINK THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE THAT COULD BE DONE.

SO, WHAT WE SAW ACROSS THE COUNTRY WERE OTHER CITIES THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAD COME INTO TO DO THESE KIND OF INVESTIGATIONS AND IMPOSE CONSENT DECREES.

SO, OUR HOPE WAS THAT WE COULD GET THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO COME IN AND DO A COMPREHENSIVE INVESTIGATION OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

SO, HOURS AND HOURS, UNTOLD HOURS OF WORK, COLLECTING INFORMATION THAT WENT BACK DECADES ON THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

OUR HOPE IN DOING THAT WAS IF WE COULD CAPTURE WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE HISTORICALLY, BUT ALSO MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT IT WAS LOOKING AT AS WE WERE FACING 2009 FORWARD AND THE OUTRAGEOUS NUMBER OF KILLINGS, WE COULD REALLY PAINT A COMPELLING PICTURE THAT WOULD SAY, YES, YOU'VE GOT A PROBLEM.

AND WE'RE COMING IN TO TAKE A LOOK.

AND WE WERE FINALLY ABLE TO GET THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HERE TO LOOK AT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

>> Jeff: STEVE, LET'S FAST FORWARD.

WE'RE NOW 11 YEARS LATER.

THE CONSENT DECREE HAS BEEN DISMISSED.

THE BIG PHRASE WE USED TO HEAR ALL THE TIME BACK THEN WAS POLICE CULTURE.

THAT'S WHAT NEEDED TO BE FIXED.

AS YOU LOOK BACK NOW ON THIS 11-YEAR REFORM EFFORT, DO YOU FEEL LIKE THERE HAS BEEN PROGRESS IN CHANGING THE CULTURE OF THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT?

>> Steve: I THINK SO.

I THINK SO.

RENETTA AND I DIFFER ON THIS BECAUSE I THINK I'M A LITTLE BIT MORE OPTIMISTIC THAN SHE IS.

I HAVE HAD THE BENEFIT OF-- IN MY WORK, I'VE HAD THE BENEFIT OF BEING ABLE TO SEE WHAT GOOD POLICEMEN WITH PROPER CRISIS INTERVENTION TRAINING WHAT THEY CAN DO WITH MENTAL HEALTH SITUATIONS THAT HAVE THE POTENTIAL OF BLOWING UP AND BECOMING VIOLENT.

A GOOD PROPERLY TRAINED CIT OFFICER KNOWS HOW TO DE-ESCALATE THE SITUATION, CALM EVERYTHING DOWN, AND PREVENT VIOLENT OUTCOMES.

I WANT TO GO BACK, JUST FOR A SECOND JEFF.

RENETTA MENTIONED HOW NAIVE WE WERE WHEN WE FIRST STARTED THIS PROCESS.

THAT WAS CERTAINLY ME BECAUSE I USED TO KNOW CHIEF SCHUTLZ.

WE WEREN'T GOOD FRIENDS, BUT WE WERE ACQUAINTANCES.

I CAN REMEMBER THINKING, WELL, I'LL JUST GO TALK TO THE CHIEF.

WE'LL TALK TO THE CHIEF AND WE'LL BE ABLE TO WORK SOMETHING OUT.

THAT CERTAINLY DIDN'T WORK.

AND AS YOU SAID, THE POLICE CULTURE.

BECAUSE THE MORE WE DUG, THE MORE WE INVESTIGATED, THE WORSE IT BECAME.

I THINK THERE HAS BEEN SOME CHANGE.

I HOPE THERE HAS BEEN SOME CHANGE.

YET AGAIN, I SAW WHEN AFTER THE CONSENT DECREE HAS BEEN DISMISSED AND ONE OF THE LOCAL TV STATIONS GOES AND INTERVIEWS SHAUN WILLOUGHBY.

SHAUN IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE POLICE UNION.

AND THEY GO AND INTERVIEW SHAUN WILLOUGHBY AND SHAUN IS JUST ECSTATIC.

THIS THING IS FINALLY OVER WITH.

NOW WE CAN GET BACK TO POLICING THE WAY WE USED TO.

I'M THINKING TO MYSELF, IS HE SAYING HOW WE CAN CONTINUE DOING THINGS THE WAY WE WERE BEFORE?

THAT'S WHAT IT SOUNDED LIKE TO ME.

I HOPE THAT THE MAJORITY OF POLICE OFFICERS DON'T SHARE THAT OPINION.

I'M HOPING.

WHAT ELSE COULD WE DO IF WE CAN'T HOPE?

>> Jeff: RENETTA, WE ALL LIVE AND PAY TAXES HERE.

THIS HAS BEEN A VERY EXPENSIVE EFFORT.

$13 MILLION BUCKS JUST IN MONITORING FEES ALONE.

LOTS OF UPHEAVAL IN THE DEPARTMENT.

AN UNDERCURRENT OF A NARRATIVE THAT THIS ENTIRE REFORM EFFORT HAS MEANT THAT COPS AREN'T ALLOWED TO DO THEIR JOBS HERE.

WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AT THIS DECADE-PLUS OF TRYING TO FIX THE POLICE DEPARTMENT THAT KILLED YOUR SON, I WONDER YOUR THOUGHTS HAD THESE REFORMS BEEN IN PLACE-- HAD THINGS BEEN THE WAY THEY ARE NOW WITH THE REFORM EFFORT, COULD THINGS HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY WITH CHRISTOPHER THAT DAY?

>> Renetta: I THINK THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

I THINK ONE OF THE PHRASES I USED BACK IN '12 WAS IT WAS LIKE THE WILD, WILD WEST.

SO THAT SO MANY SITUATIONS THAT YOU KNOW, AFTER YOU'VE READ THE DETAILS, THEY COULD HAVE BEEN DE-ESCALATED HAD THE WILL BEEN THERE ON THE PART OF THE OFFICERS.

I THINK THE CONSENT DECREE LAID OUT-- THE AGREEMENT LAID OUT ALL OF THESE PARAMETERS THAT HAD TO BE MET IN ORDER TO BE COMPLIANT.

I CAN MEET THEM ON PAPER, BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THESE OFFICERS ARE OUT IN THE COMMUNITY?

I CAN HAVE THE BEST TRAINING PLAN LAID OUT.

I CAN HAVE ALL OF THESE OTHER THINGS IN PLACE, BUT IF I STILL AM PART OF THAT CULTURE-- AND THAT'S ONE OF THE QUESTIONS WE DIDN'T KNOW.

I THINK ALAN GOMEZ'S SON SITUATION-- ALAN'S SITUATION.

THERE YOU HAD IT.

THIS YOUNG MAN WAS RETREATING BACK INTO THE HOUSE.

HE WAS CARRYING A SPOON.

SO, THAT WHOLE PHRASE THAT THEY LIKE TO EMPLOY, WE FELT THREATENED, WE FELT OUR LIVES WERE IN DANGER.

PLEASE TELL ME HOW A REASONABLE PERSON COULD SUSPECT THAT I'M RETREATING AND I'M GOING BACK INTO THE HOUSE BUT I'M A DANGER TO YOU WITH GUNS BACK HERE AND ALL I'VE GOT IS A SPOON.

THE YOUNG MAN WHO HAD A PHONE.

HE WAS FLEEING.

HE WAS RUNNING AWAY FROM THEM.

HE HAD A PHONE, BUT THEY THOUGHT SHE HAD A GUN, SO THEY SHOT HIM IN THE BACK.

CHRISTOPHER WAS FACEDOWN ON OUR PATIO WITH THE OFFENDING SHOOTING OFFICER, CHRISTOPHER BROWN, SITTING ON TOP OF HIM.

HE SHOOTS HIM THREE TIMES, POINT-BLANK RANGE, IN THE BACK.

HOW IS CHRISTOPHER A THREAT?

YES, I THINK ALL OF THIS VERBIAGE WITH THE RELEASE OF THE AGREEMENT IS NICE AND IT SOUNDS LIKE SUCH A WONDERFUL SOUND BITE, BUT THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING.

WHAT HAPPENS ONCE THIS DECREE IS NO LONGER ENFORCEABLE AND THEY GO BACK TO WHATEVER IT IS THAT SHAUN WILLOUGHBY SAID?

I THINK WE ALL WANT TO HAVE A COMMUNITY WHERE WE FEEL SAFE, NOT JUST THE OFFICERS, BUT THOSE OF US THAT RESIDE IN THE COMMUNITY.

YES, THAT'S LOT OF MONEY, TO GO BACK TO YOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT THE TAXPAYERS AND HOW WE FUNDED THIS.

AGAIN, WILL IT HAVE BEEN MONEY THAT WAS JUST SPENT FOR NAUGHT?

I THINK THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

>> Jeff: THAT'S A PERFECT PLACE TO PAUSE.

WE'RE GOING TO SPEND A FEW MINUTES ON NEXT WEEK'S SHOW TALKING ABOUT WHAT THE COMMUNITY CAN AND SHOULD EXPECT FROM APD NOW THAT THE FEDS HAVE LEFT TOWN.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR THE CHAT THIS WEEK.

>> Renetta: THANK YOU.

>> Steve: THANK YOU, JEFF.

>> Nash: WHILE POLICE CHIEF HAROLD MEDINA WASN'T IN CHARGE WHEN THE DOJ BEGAN OVERSEEING THE DEPARTMENT, HE WAS A COMMANDER WITH NEARLY 20 YEARS ON THE FORCE.

SOON AFTER, HE RETIRED AND WENT TO RUN THE LAGUNA PUEBLO POLICE DEPARTMENT.

JUST A FEW YEARS LATER, HE WAS BACK AT APD AS DEPUTY CHIEF.

IN 2020, HE BEGAN LEADING THE DEPARTMENT.

ONE THAT WAS STILL NOT FULLY IN CHARGE OF ITSELF, HAVING BLOWN THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT'S INITIAL TIMELINE BY YEARS AT THAT POINT.

IT WAS UNDER MEDINA'S LEADERSHIP THAT APD FINALLY GOT OUT FROM UNDER THE CONSENT DECREE.

I SAT DOWN WITH THE CHIEF TO HEAR HIS TAKE ON THE CULTURE OF APD WHEN THIS ALL BEGAN, THE CHANGES ITS MADE, AND WHY THIS PROCESS HAS COME TO AN END NOW.

APD CHIEF HAROLD MEDINA, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> Medina: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME HERE THIS MORNING.

>> Nash: I WANT TO START BY HAVING YOU TAKE US BACK TO 2014.

THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT STEMMED FROM A DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE INVESTIGATION THAT FOUND A PATTERN OF EXCESSIVE FORCE IN THE DEPARTMENT.

YOU WEREN'T CHIEF YET IN 2014.

BUT YOU HAD BEEN WORKING YOUR WAY UP THE RANKS AT APD FOR ABOUT 20 YEARS AT THAT POINT.

DID YOU EVER SEE POLICING THAT BOTHERED YOU?

>> Medina: YOU KNOW, I SAW A LOT OF LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY AND INCONSISTENCY WITH ACCOUNTABILITY.

I REALLY TRACE IT BACK TO ABOUT A 2009 TIME FRAME.

I REMEMBER GOING TO THE ACADEMY AND THEM TALKING ABOUT HOW THEY WERE GOING TO TAKE A MORE MILITARISTIC APPROACH TO OUR TRAINING AND THEY WERE GOING TO ADOPT A MARINE PHILOSOPHY OF BUILD THEM UP AND BREAK THEM DOWN.

I SAW HOW OUR ACADEMY WAS TREATING OUR CADETS AND TO ME I THOUGHT THAT FOR A MILITARY ENVIRONMENT THAT WAS GREAT.

BUT TO CREATE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE FREE THINKERS TO GO OUT AND PROBLEM SOLVE WITH THE COMMUNITY AND WORK WITH THE COMMUNITY, I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS THE GREATEST OF IDEAS.

I COULD SLOWLY SEE THAT THERE WERE SOME SHOOTINGS THAT I HAD QUESTIONS ABOUT AND I QUESTIONED.

>> Nash: DID YOU EVER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THOSE?

>> Medina: YOU KNOW, THERE ARE MANY TIMES THAT WE TALKED ABOUT-- ESPECIALLY LIKE THE ACADEMY.

WE TALKED ABOUT THE ACADEMY STRUCTURE.

BACK THEN, AS A COMMANDER, WE DIDN'T HAVE A VOICE IN A LOT OF THOSE SHOOTINGS UNLESS THEY DIRECTLY INVOLVED US.

AND THERE WASN'T A PROCESS WHERE WE WERE BROUGHT IN.

THE DEPARTMENT WAS VERY SILOED AND IT WAS SILOED INFORMATION AND ONLY SELECT UNITS WERE INVOLVED IN THOSE DISCUSSIONS.

>> Nash: THERE WAS A SHOOTING THAT DID INVOLVE YOU IN 2002.

YOU SHOT AND KILLED DOMINIC MONTOYA, A TEEN WIELDING A BB GUN IN THE CHURCH.

>> Nash: COULD THE REFORMS BROUGHT ABOUT BY THE CONSENT DECREE HAVE PREVENTED THAT SHOOTING?

>> Medina: GOING BACK AND THINKING ABOUT THAT SHOOTING, I THINK THAT'S ONE THAT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO HAVE PREVENTED THAT BECAUSE OF THE DYNAMICS OF HOW IT UNROLLED.

BACK THEN, WE HAD AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS COMING OUT OF A PART OF THE CHURCH AND WE IMMEDIATELY WERE NOTIFIED THERE'S AN ARMED INDIVIDUAL WITH THESE INDIVIDUALS INSIDE OF THE CHURCH.

IF YOU LOOK TODAY'S STANDARDS, WE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT DE-ESCALATION.

AND LOOKING AT THAT SITUATION, I DON'T KNOW IF DE-ESCALATION WAS AN OPTION.

IT UNFOLDED RATHER QUICKLY.

WE NEVER HAD DIALOGUE WITH THE INDIVIDUAL WHERE WE WERE ABLE TO SPEAK AND COMMUNICATE.

IT WAS AS THE INDIVIDUAL WAS LEAVING AND WE GAVE ORDERS TO THE INDIVIDUAL AND THE INDIVIDUAL QUICKLY LEARNED WITH WHAT SEEMED TO BE A FIREARM.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT WOULD HELP EVERY SINGLE SHOOTING.

WE WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE DYNAMICS OF IT.

I THINK IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR US TO SAY IN THAT SPECIFIC SHOOTING.

BUT I THINK THERE ARE OTHER SHOOTINGS THAT IT COULD HAVE ASSISTED US IN RESOLVING IN A DIFFERENT FASHION.

>> Nash: OKAY.

THE DOJ ALSO FOUND A LEADERSHIP STRUCTURE THAT NOT ONLY TURNED A BLIND EYE, BUT AT TIMES ENCOURAGED THOSE PRACTICES.

WHAT WAS YOUR IMPRESSION AT THAT TIME, AHEAD OF THE CONSENT DECREE AND RIGHT AS IT WAS COMING INTO PLACE, ABOUT HOW THE DEPARTMENT WAS BEING LED?

>> Medina: YOU KNOW, I LOOK BACK TO THE ACADEMY SITUATION.

AND I HAD VOICED MY CONCERNS ABOUT THE ACADEMY AND THE STRUCTURE OF THE ACADEMY.

AND CONVERSATIONS OCCURRED, PEOPLE WERE TRANSFERRED FROM THE ACADEMY.

BUT NOBODY EVER REALLY SAT THERE AND SAID THIS IS THE WAY IT'S GOING TO BE.

THIS IS GOING TO END.

I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE LEADERSHIP DIFFERENCES CAME.

AND THAT'S WHERE WE WERE ABLE TO GET OUT OF THIS CONSENT DECREE.

BECAUSE IT TOOK STRONG LEADERSHIP.

AT TIMES , IT UPSET OFFICERS AND IT UPSET PEOPLE WITHIN THE RANKS AND THEY RETIRED.

BUT IT WAS STRONG LEADERSHIP THAT SAID IT'S GOING TO BE DONE THIS WAY BECAUSE IT'S THE CORRECT WAY AND THIS IS THE WAY WE'VE AGREED WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND THERE'S NO DEVIATING FROM IT.

>> Nash: SPEAKING OF SOME OF THE UPHEAVAL AT THE DEPARTMENT AND THE CONSENT DECREE, JUST THE MONITORING ALONE HAS COST THE CITY MORE THAN $13 MILLION.

SHOULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE, THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT?

>> Medina: I THINK WE NEEDED TO BE REFORMED.

WITHOUT A DOUBT.

WE HAD TO CHANGE THE WAY WE WERE DOING BUSINESS.

WE WOULDN'T HAVE EVER DONE IT ON OUR OWN.

WE NEEDED SOMETHING TO FORCE US TO DO THAT, BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENT WAYS THAT YOU COULD ACCOMPLISH ACCOUNTABILITY AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THROUGH THE PROCESS.

>> Nash: THAT WAS THE WAY THAT IT CAME ABOUT.

TALK ABOUT WHAT THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT REQUIRED OF YOUR DEPARTMENT.

>> Medina: SO, WE HAD TO COME IN COMPLIANCE WITH 255 PARAGRAPHS.

AND THE PARAGRAPHS ARE BROKEN INTO SECTIONS DEALING WITH INDIVIDUALS' MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS.

USE OF FORCE INVESTIGATIONS, HOW TO HOLD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE I.A.

INVESTIGATIONS.

COMMUNITY OUTREACH.

ALL THESE SECTIONS TOGETHER IS WHAT MADE THE CONSENT DECREE SO UNIQUE AND IS WHAT REALLY CHANGED THE DEPARTMENT.

>> Nash: YOU SAID IN A STATEMENT, AFTER THE JUDGE DISMISSED THE AGREEMENT, THAT GETTING INTO COMPLIANCE WITH THOSE REQUIREMENTS WASN'T AN EASY ROAD.

WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> Medina: YOU KNOW, PRIOR TO ME, MY PREDECESSORS WERE BOTH UNABLE TO GET INTO COMPLIANCE.

AND THEY TRIED THEIR VERY BEST.

I SAW MY PREDECESSORS TRY TO SUPPORT JUST THE OFFICERS.

I SAW THEM TRY TO DO EVERYTHING THAT WAS ASKED.

I SAW THEM TRY TO FIGHT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, AND NEITHER ONE WAS ABLE TO GET INTO COMPLIANCE.

>> Nash: WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM?

>> Medina: ACCOUNTABILITY.

AND STRONG LEADERSHIP THAT WAS GOING TO HOLD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE AND ENSURE THIS WENT FORWARD.

WHEN I TOOK OVER AS CHIEF, I SPOKE WITH THE MAYOR AND THE MAYOR WAS VERY HELPFUL IN ENSURING THAT WE HAD HIS SUPPORT AND THAT STRONG LEADERSHIP WAS THERE AND THAT WE HAD PROCESSES AND POLICIES THAT WORKED IN ALBUQUERQUE, NOT JUST BALTIMORE, MARYLAND.

>> Nash: YEAH.

SPECIFIC TO THIS LOCALE.

WE HEARD FROM RANK AND FILE AND THE POLICE UNION THAT CONSENT DECREE, IN SOME WAYS, WAS RESTRICTIVE IN A WAY THAT PREVENTED OFFICERS FROM BEING ABLE TO DO THEIR JOBS.

WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THAT?

>> Medina: I THINK THAT'S WHERE OUR SUCCESS SHINES.

AND THAT'S WHAT SEPARATES US FROM ANY OTHER ENTITY IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> Nash: HOW SO?

>> Medina: LOOK AT OUR CRIME STATS OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS.

OUR CRIME HAS BEEN GOING DOWN.

WE'VE INCREASED THE NUMBER OF ARRESTS.

SO, WE WEREN'T ONLY AGENCY THAT WAS CONSTITUTIONALLY POLICING THE COMMUNITY.

WE WERE AN AGENCY THAT WAS LOWERING CRIME.

OUR OFFICERS EMBRACED THESE CHANGES AND THEY GAVE US RECOMMENDATIONS ON HOW TO STREAMLINE PROCESSES, BUT KEEP UP THE ACCOUNTABILITY.

AND THEIR MORALE WENT THROUGH THE ROOF.

>> Nash: SO, IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU BELIEVE THAT THE OFFICERS WERE ABLE TO COMPLY WITH THE CONSENT DECREE AND DO THEIR JOBS EFFECTIVELY, THEREBY DISAGREEING WITH THE POLICE UNION?

>> Medina: YES.

ME AND SHAUN HAVE HAD THIS CONVERSATION OVER AND OVER, AND HE CAN NEVER GET OVER THE FACT, AS I TOLD HIM, WHY ARE MY NUMBERS SO GOOD IF OFFICERS AREN'T ABLE TO DO THEIR JOB?

>> Nash: I WANT TO SHIFT TO THE TIMELINE OF THE CONSENT DECREE A BIT, AND CLARIFY THAT.

ACCORDING TO THE CONSENT DECREE ITSELF, THE DEPARTMENT HAD TO BE IN COMPLIANCE -- OPERATIONAL COMPLIANCE FOR TWO YEARS, IN ORDER FOR IT TO COME TO AN END.

THE FIRST REPORT THAT MET THAT THRESHOLD COVERED A PERIOD FROM AUGUST 2023 TO JANUARY OF 2024.

THAT'S NOT TWO YEARS.

SO, WHY HAS THE FEDERAL OVERSIGHT COME TO AN END NOW?

>> Medina: RIGHT NOW, WE'RE CURRENTLY AT 21 MONTHS OF THE 24 REQUIRED MONTHS.

I THINK THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, WHEN THEY LOOKED AT WHERE WE'RE AT-- THE PAST THREE MONTHS BECAUSE THIS IS A CONVERSATION OVER THREE MONTHS AT THIS POINT.

WHEN THEY LOOKED AT WHERE WE'RE AT AS A DEPARTMENT, I THINK THEIR STATEMENT TO EVERYBODY THE FACT THAT THE NEXT THREE MONTHS AREN'T GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE OF A CHANGE THAT IS GOING TO DROP THE POLICE DEPARTMENT FROM THE CONSENT DECREE.

IT IS NOT-- THERE'S NOT ENOUGH UP TO THIS POINT FOR US TO SAY IT'S GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

AND THEY MADE THE DECISION TO DISMISS IT.

>> Nash: NOTABLY, IT IS A DIFFERENT JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO.

PRESIDENT TRUMP, RETURNING TO THE WHITE HOUSE, HAS MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE BELIEVES THAT CONSENT DECREES LIKE THIS ARE UNNECESSARY, EVEN HARMFUL, TO POLICING AND PUBLIC SAFETY.

DID DONALD TRUMP'S ELECTION HASTEN THE TIMELINE OF THE CONSENT DECREE BEING DISMISSED?

>> Medina: NO, BECAUSE WE WERE ALREADY IN NEGOTIATIONS PRIOR TO HIM TAKING OFFICE TO GET THIS DISMISSED.

AND THE COMMENT I TOLD YOU ABOUT THAT DOJ MADE THE COMMENT TO US THAT THE NEXT THREE MONTHS WEREN'T GOING TO CHANGE WERE MADE BY AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS HERE DURING THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION.

>> Nash: BUT WHY THREE MONTHS EARLY?

EVEN IF THINGS WEREN'T GOING TO CHANGE, WHY NOT WAIT OUT THOSE THREE MONTHS?

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?

>> Medina: I FOUGHT FOR US TO BE DISMISSED, AND THE NEGOTIATIONS WERE ALREADY IN PLACE.

BUT WE FOUGHT FOR THEM TO BE DISMISSED BECAUSE WE HAD MET COMPLIANCE.

AND THERE HAD BEEN RUMORS CIRCULATING THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS GOING TO DISMISS SEVERAL CONSENT DECREES.

I WANTED TO ENSURE THAT OUR OFFICERS GOT CREDIT FOR WHAT THEY DESERVED AND WHAT THEY EARNED.

OUR OFFICERS WORKED EXTREMELY HARD.

>> Nash: THE COMPLIANCE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, IT WAS LAID OUT IN REGULAR REPORTS FROM AN INDEPENDENT MONITOR JAMES GINGER.

IN A STORY LAST YEAR WITH THE HEADLINE BASIC MATH ERRORS, FAULTY STATISTICS, CONCLUSIONS THAT DON'T ADD UP, SEARCHLIGHT NEW MEXICO UNCOVERED A PLETHORA OF INACCURATE REPORTING BY GINGER.

GIVEN THAT INVESTIGATION BY SEARCHLIGHT WAS NEVER CONTESTED, WHY SHOULD THE PUBLIC BE CONFIDENT THAT APD WAS IN COMPLIANCE FOR THE PERIOD OF TIME THAT YOU'RE SAYING?

>> Medina: BECAUSE THE PUBLIC SHOULD RECOGNIZE WHERE WE WERE AS A DEPARTMENT AND THE TYPE OF SHOOTINGS WE HAD IN 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, THE DEPARTMENT'S RESPONSE TO THOSE SHOOTINGS.

THE ACCOUNTABILITY AT THOSE POINTS IN TIME DURING THAT TIME FRAME.

I BET YOU COULD GO BACK AND THERE WAS NOT-- OTHER THAN THE INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED IN THE BOYD SHOOTING, WHICH ONLY WERE TERMINATED AFTER THEY WERE INDICTED, THERE WAS NOBODY ELSE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR ANY OF THOSE.

WE'VE HELD OFFICERS ACCOUNTABLE TO SHOOTINGS IN TODAY'S DAY AND AGE.

YOU LOOK AT THE INFORMATION WE GIVE TO THE PUBLIC.

96%, I THINK, OF THE INDIVIDUALS IN THE LAST PERIOD THAT WE WERE INVOLVED IN SHOOTINGS WITH WERE ARMED WITH A GUN.

WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT WASN'T ALWAYS OCCURRING.

THE OTHER THING IS, GO LOOK BACK AT VIDEO.

AVAILABLE VIDEO OR BELT TAPES, OF OFFICERS PROFESSIONALISM.

HOW THEY DE-ESCALATED CALLS IN 2009, '10, '11.

HOW WE HAVE PATIENCE HOW.

OUR OFFICERS DE-ESCALATE SITUATIONS.

AND THE PROOF IS RIGHT THERE FOR ANYBODY WHO WANTS TO TRULY SEE WHAT THINGS ARE OCCURRING WITH AN OPEN, HONEST MIND.

AND YOU'LL SEE OUR OFFICERS DO A FABULOUS JOB TODAY OF DE-ESCALATING SITUATIONS, TREATING THE COMMUNITY WITH DIGNITY, WITH RESPECT, AND ENSURING THAT WE DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO AVOID A USE OF FORCE.

>> Nash: SO, YOU'RE SAYING THE OFFICERS ARE DOING A FABULOUS JOB.

THE CITY AND THE DOJ JOINTLY FILED THIS MOTION TO DISMISS IT.

>> Medina: YES.

>> Nash: IS THIS ALL A MESSAGE OF MISSION ACCOMPLISHED?

>> Medina: 100%.

THIS CURRENT MISSION.

BUT YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER REFORM SHOULD NEVER END.

AND WE DON'T WANT TO GET IN THE TRAP WHERE WE ARE PERFECT AS A DEPARTMENT NOW, OR WE'RE DOING MUCH BETTER AS A DEPARTMENT, AND WE'RE NOT WILLING TO LOOK TO SEE HOW WE COULD IMPROVE.

POLICING IS QUICKLY EVOLVING.

POLICING IS QUICKLY CHANGING.

AND YOU HAVE TO BE INVOLVED IN WHAT POLICING IS TODAY TO UNDERSTAND THAT.

TO MAKE CHANGES.

>> Nash: PART OF WHAT POLICING IS TODAY INVOLVES POLICE CULTURE.

IT'S A TERM THAT WE HEARD A LOT IN THE RUN-UP TO THE CONSENT DECREE.

HOW WOULD YOU DEFINE POLICE CULTURE?

>> Medina: YOU KNOW, THE CULTURE IS WHAT YOUR VALUES ARE.

HOW OFFICERS INTERACT WITH THE COMMUNITY.

HOW THEY WORK TO AVOID THE USE OF FORCE.

>> Nash: I'M WONDERING, WHAT WOULD YOU QUALIFY AS THE MOST IMPORTANT CHANGE TO POLICE CULTURE THAT HAS HAPPENED THROUGH THIS DECADE-LONG PROCESS?

>> Medina: I WOULD SAY THERE'S THREE THINGS THAT ARE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

ALL EQUALLY IMPORTANT.

HOW WE TRAIN OUR OFFICERS.

HOW WE TRAIN THEM AND ENSURE THAT WE PUT THE VALUES IN THEM, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, ABOUT DE-ESCALATION AND TREATING THE PUBLIC WITH DIGNITY, RESPECT, AND ENSURING CONSTITUTIONAL POLICING.

THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

TRAINING.

NUMBER TWO, TEACHING OUR OFFICERS AND MONITORING OUR OFFICERS OUT IN THE FIELD EACH DAY.

REVIEWING VIDEO, AND MAKING SURE THAT EVERYTHING THEY WERE TRAINED TO DO IS ACTUALLY BEING FOLLOWED.

AND NUMBER THREE, ACCOUNTABILITY.

OUR INTERNAL INVESTIGATIONS AND YOU HEAR THE UNION SAY THAT SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN INVESTIGATED.

WE CONDUCT A LOT OF INVESTIGATIONS.

AND A LOT OF TIME THOSE INVESTIGATIONS SHOW THE OFFICER DID NOTHING WRONG, BUT WE DON'T ASSUME THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG.

WE INVESTIGATE IT AND WE MAKE SURE THE FACTS LEAD US TO THE FACT THAT THEY'RE CLEARED FROM THEIR INCIDENT.

>> Nash: DESPITE THE CHANGES THAT YOU'RE OUTLINING, YOUR OFFICERS STILL KILLED PEOPLE AT THE HIGHEST RATE OF ANY MAJOR METRO AREA POLICE DEPARTMENT IN THE COUNTRY LAST YEAR.

MORE THAN 14 PER 1 MILLION RESIDENTS.

HOW CAN THIS BE WHAT REFORM LOOKS LIKE?

>> Medina: IF YOU'RE SINGLE MINDED AND YOU LOOK AT OFFICER-INVOLVED SHOOTING ALONE, AND I CHALLENGE THAT DATA.

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE WHERE THE DATA CAME FROM.

WHO GATHERED IT.

>> Nash: THAT'S FROM MAPPING POLICE VIOLENCE.

>> Medina: YES, I'VE LOOKED AT THOSE.

AND THEY HAVE VERY LITTLE DISCLOSURES OF HOW THE PROCESS WAS GENERATED AND HOW THE DATA WAS INCORPORATED AND HOW IT WAS USED.

WE COULD HAVE THAT CONVERSATION SOMEDAY.

>> Nash: WHAT ABOUT BASED ON NEWS REPORTS, FBI DATA?

>> Medina: ONE SHOOTING IS ALWAYS MORE THAN WHAT WE WANT.

ONE SHOOTING.

BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS SOCIETY IS CHANGED.

AND OVER 90% OF THE INDIVIDUALS WE HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN DEADLY FORCE WITH HAVE BEEN ARMED WITH A GUN.

AND OUR OFFICERS HAVE THE RIGHT TO GO HOME AT THE END OF THE DAY.

I'M SORRY THAT THIS REFORM PROCESS DID NOT CHANGE THE CULTURE OF GUNS AND VIOLENCE IN NEW MEXICO AS A WHOLE.

IT'S NOT JUST ALBUQUERQUE THAT'S SUFFERING.

>> Nash: IS THAT WHAT YOU ATTRIBUTE THE HIGH NUMBER OF SHOOTINGS TO IS A BROADER AMERICAN CULTURE AROUND GUNS AND VIOLENCE?

>> Medina: YES.

AND THE STATES WITH MOST LIBERAL GUN LAWS TEND TO HAVE SOME OF THE HIGHEST OFFICER-INVOLVED SHOOTINGS.

>> Nash: SO, WOULD YOU SAY POLICE CAN ONLY DO SO MUCH?

>> Medina: YES.

THE CONSENT DECREE WAS NEVER ABOUT DEADLY FORCE.

DOJ ATTORNEYS THEMSELVES HAVE SAID THIS SEVERAL TIMES.

THE ONLY FACTOR OF MEASUREMENT ISN'T DEADLY FORCE.

IT WAS THE USE OF FORCE.

DID WE HAVE A GOOD PROCESS TO INVESTIGATE?

DID WE HAVE GOOD ACCOUNTABILITY?

AND WAS THE ACCOUNTABILITY FAIR AND CONSISTENT?

AND WE'VE TAKEN A NEW APPROACH TO THAT ALSO.

WE ALSO ADD HOW DO WE LOOK AT WHAT WE'VE DONE IN THE PAST AND HOW CAN WE IMPROVE UPON THAT AND ENSURE WE TRAIN OUR OFFICERS FOR THOSE SITUATIONS.

SO, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE USE OF FORCE AS A WHOLE HAS DECREASED.

OUR PRODUCTIVITY IS HIGHER THAN ITS BEEN IN YEARS.

OUR OFFICERS ARE TRAINED ON REAL-LIFE SCENARIOS THAT HAVE AFFECTED US IN THE PAST.

AND WE RECREATE THEM IN TRAINING SO ALL OFFICERS CAN EXPERIENCE THAT.

AND WE KEEP UP WITH TRENDS THAT WE'RE SEEING.

THERE'S A LOT OF SUCCESS IN THIS CONSENT DECREE THAT WE CAN POINT TO.

AND WE CAN'T JUST BE VERY NARROW MINDED AND FOCUSED ON ONLY ONE ASPECT, WHEN THAT WAS NEVER THE INTENT OF THIS CONSENT DECREE.

>> Nash: STILL, THERE'S BEEN A LONGTIME PATTERN OF EXCESSIVE FORCE.

YOU REMAIN ONE OF THE DEADLIEST POLICE FORCES IN THE COUNTRY.

HOW HAS YOUR DEPARTMENT WORKED TO REGAIN COMMUNITY TRUST THROUGH THIS SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT?

>> Medina: YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE DONE IS WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO MEASURE COMMUNITY TRUST.

WE HAVE TWO PROCESSES THAT WE REALLY USE.

ONE IS SPIDER TECH.

EVERY SINGLE CALL FOR SERVICE GENERATES INFORMATION FOR THE PUBLIC TO RATE THE OFFICER AND THEY PERFORM THAT DAY AND THE SERVICES THAT THEY WERE PROVIDED.

AND WE GENERALLY SCORE 4.5 OUT OF 5 WITH THAT PROCESS.

AND THEN WHEN YOU LOOK AT ZENCITY AND THE SURVEYS THAT WE CARRY ACROSS THE CITY, YOU'LL SEE THAT WE ARE HIGHER THAN A LOT OF OTHER CITIES AND HIGHER THAN CITIES UNDER CONSENT DECREES WITH THE LEVEL OF TRUST THAT WE HAVE FROM THE COMMUNITY.

SO, WE'RE CONSISTENTLY MONITORING IT.

WE EVEN HAD IT MONITORING DURING OUR DWI CORRUPTION PERIOD.

AND WE SAW HOW TRUST TAPERED FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, BUT HOW WE'VE REBUILT IT AND IT'S ON THE INCREASE AGAIN.

>> Nash: YOU MENTIONED YOUR DWI CORRUPTION SCANDAL THAT'S ONGOING AND FBI INVESTIGATION.

SO FAR, 13 APD OFFICERS HAVE LEFT YOUR DEPARTMENT.

FIVE HAVE PLEADED GUILTY IN THE BRIBERY CASE FOR BASICALLY GETTING PAID OFF TO NOT SHOW UP AT COURT TO HAVE THESE DWI CASES DISMISSED.

HOW CAN WIDESPREAD CORRUPTION LIKE THIS TAKE PLACE IN A REFORMED DEPARTMENT?

>> Medina: I'LL TAKE YOU BACK.

I'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS PUBLICLY.

THERE WAS A 2014 CASE THAT THE ADMINISTRATION MISSED THAT GAVE ALL THE DETAILS TO THIS CORRUPTION SCANDAL.

AND ALL THE PIECES OF THE PUZZLE WERE THERE.

TWO INDIVIDUALS WERE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

IN TODAY'S DAY AND AGE, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN TERMINATED.

NEITHER ONE WAS TERMINATED.

2003 CASE THAT WE'RE STILL RESEARCHING AND LOOKING WHERE THIS MAY HAVE REARED ITS UGLY HEAD AND COULD HAVE POTENTIALLY BEEN THERE.

STATE POLICE TALKED ABOUT A CASE THEY HAD.

PETE KASSETAS TALKED ABOUT A CASE HE HAD WHERE HE SHOULD HAVE CAUGHT THIS BUT WASN'T ABLE TO CAPTURE THIS.

>> Nash: INTERNAL AFFAIRS, THOUGH, WAS A CENTRAL PIECE OF THE CONSENT DECREE.

HOW WAS A CORRUPTION SCANDAL THIS WIDESPREAD ABLE TO CROP UP IN A DEPARTMENT THAT WAS REFORMING ITS INTERNAL AFFAIRS PROCESSES AND PROCEDURES?

>> Medina: THERE'S A VARIETY OF REASONS WHY WE WERE ABLE TO SMOKE THIS OUT.

THERE'S A LOT OF LEADERSHIP DECISIONS MADE.

WHEN THE INITIAL COMPLAINT CAME IN AND WE HAD TO MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT WHO IS GOING TO KNOW ABOUT IT, WE KEPT IT AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL WITH A VERY SMALL GROUP AS WE LOOKED.

INTERNAL AFFAIRS WAS COMPROMISED, BUT WE HAD BUILT SUCH A PROCESS OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

WE WERE SO COMMITTED AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS THAT WE KNEW HOW TO HANDLE THE SITUATION PROPERLY.

AND WE KNEW TO DO-- LOOK AT THIS THE WAY WE DID.

30 YEARS, HOW MANY CHIEFS IS THAT?

HOW MANY MAYORS IS THAT?

THAT IS A LOT OF CHIEFS AND THAT IS A LOT OF MAYORS.

BUT THIS CHIEF, THIS MAYOR, PUT AN END TO THIS CORRUPTION SCANDAL, ALTHOUGH OTHERS HAD THEIR HANDS ON IT IN THE PAST.

>> Nash: CHIEF MEDINA, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO STICK AROUND.

WE'RE GOING TO FOLLOW UP NEXT WEEK WITH A LOOK AT THE FUTURE OF APD POST-DOJ.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Medina: THANK YOU.

>> Nash: WE APPRECIATE CHIEF MEDINA TAKING THE TIME TO ANSWER OUR QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW HE AND HIS OFFICERS HAVE NAVIGATED THE REFORM PROCESS.

HE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK TO TALK ABOUT THE FUTURE OF APD.

ONE QUICK BIT OF NEWS WHILE WE'RE HERE.

YOU HEARD THE CHIEF SAY DONALD TRUMP'S ELECTION HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE END OF THE APD CONSENT DECREE.

BUT NINE DAYS AFTER JUDGE BROWNING SIGNED THE ORDER IN AN ALBUQUERQUE COURTROOM, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ANNOUNCED IT WAS PULLING OUT OF EIGHT ONGOING CONSENT DECREE PROJECTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

IN ANNOUNCING THE MOVE, A TOP DOJ LAWYER, WHO ALSO SIGNED THE ORDER IN ALBUQUERQUE, SAID, QUOTE, FEDERAL MICROMANAGEMENT OF LOCAL POLICE SHOULD BE A RARE EXCEPTION AND NOT THE NORM.

THINGS WERE DIFFERENT A DECADE AGO.

JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS REVIEWED 20 FATAL APD SHOOTINGS FROM 2009 THROUGH 2012.

THEY FOUND THE MAJORITY OF THEM VIOLATED THE U.S. CONSTITUTION, AND ULTIMATELY SENT A LETTER IN APRIL OF 2014 TO THEN MAYOR RICHARD BERRY DETAILING THEIR STARK FINDINGS.

THE LETTER READS IN PART, QUOTE, WE HAVE REASONABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT OFFICERS OF THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT ENGAGE IN A PATTERN OR PRACTICE OF USE OF EXCESSIVE FORCE, INCLUDING UNREASONABLE DEADLY FORCE IN VIOLATION OF THE FOURTH AMENDMENT.

IT CONTINUES, QUOTE, THE DEPARTMENT'S LACK OF INTERNAL OVERSIGHT HAS ALLOWED A CULTURE OF AGGRESSION TO DEVELOP.

IF YOU WERE FOLLOWING THESE ISSUES BACK THEN, CHANCES ARE YOU WERE READING COVERAGE FROM JEFF PROCTOR, OUR EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, WHO INVESTIGATED APD FOR SEVERAL NEWS ORGANIZATIONS BEFORE HE CAME TO NMPBS.

THAT'S JEFF ON YOUR SCREEN TALKING ABOUT HIS WORK ON OLD EPISODES OF IN FOCUS.

AND IF YOU REMEMBER SOME OF THE HIGH-PROFILE COP SHOOTINGS THAT LED UP TO THIS, THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE THAT THE FINE LAW FIRM WAS REPRESENTING THE VICTIM'S FAMILY.

THE FINES HANDLED TWO OF THE CASES SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED IN THE DOJ FINDINGS LETTER.

TO GET A LONGVIEW PERSPECTIVE OF HOW EFFECTIVE FEDERAL INVESTIGATION HAS BEEN IN TAMPING DOWN APD'S CULTURE OF AGGRESSION, JEFF SAT DOWN THIS WEEK WITH CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER MARK FINE.

HERE'S THAT CONVERSATION.

>> Jeff: MARK, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TODAY.

AND WELCOME TO NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Fine: THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Jeff: I'D LIKE TO BEGIN WITH A PHRASE THAT WE HEARD AN AWFUL LOT BACK IN 2011, 2012, 2013 IN THE RUN-UP TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT'S INVESTIGATION OF APD AND AFTER THAT FINDINGS LETTER DROPPED IN 2014.

THE PHRASE IS POLICE CULTURE.

THAT'S THE THING THAT NEEDED TO BE FIXED IN THIS ENTIRE EFFORT.

I WONDER YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHAT YOU REMEMBER ABOUT WHAT WAS SO PROBLEMATIC WITH THE DEPARTMENT'S CULTURE BACK THEN?

>> Fine: I THINK THAT LETTER REFERENCED A CULTURE OF AGGRESSION, SPECIFICALLY.

AND THAT WAS DEFINITELY A BIG PART OF IT, WAS THAT THERE WAS A CULTURE OF AGGRESSION THAT WAS RUNNING RAMPANT THROUGH THE DEPARTMENT, IN LARGE PART, BECAUSE IT WAS UNCHECKED.

SO, I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK BACK ON IT, YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT TWO DIFFERENT CULTURES.

AND IT WAS A SUBCULTURE.

THERE WAS TOO MUCH OF IT.

BUT THERE WERE A SUBCULTURE OF AGGRESSIVE POLICE CONDUCT IN THE STREETS AND THEN THERE WAS ALSO A CULTURE OF NON-ACCOUNTABILITY AT THE TOP OR AT THE SUPERVISORY LEVEL THAT WAS ALLOWING THAT CULTURE, THAT SUBCULTURE OF AGGRESSION, TO FLOURISH AND TO MAGNIFY AND TO-- IT WAS BAD TO WREAK HAVOC ON A LOT OF PEOPLE DURING THAT TIME FRAME.

>> Jeff: DO YOU FEEL LIKE THE SECOND PART OF THE ANSWER YOU JUST GAVE HAS GOTTEN A LITTLE BIT FORGOTTEN IN THE 11 YEARS SINCE?

THAT PART ABOUT-- SO, IT WASN'T JUST THAT WE GOT ALL THESE AGGRESSIVE COPS.

IT'S A LEADERSHIP STRUCTURE THAT NOT ONLY LOOKS THE OTHER WAY FROM IT, BUT SOMEWHAT ENCOURAGES IT.

DO YOU FEEL LIKE THAT'S BEEN LOST FROM THE DISCOURSE A BIT?

>> Fine: I THINK IT'S EASY TO LOSE SIGHT OF THAT PART OF THE EQUATION.

BECAUSE MY VIEW IS THAT THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE, IN ANY POLICE DEPARTMENT IN AN URBAN SETTING, THERE'S GOING TO BE A SUBCULTURE OF AGGRESSIVE OFFICERS.

THAT'S NOT THE MAJORITY.

IT'S CERTAINLY NOT ALL THE OFFICERS.

BUT THERE IS GOING TO BE THAT TENDENCY WITHIN ANY DEPARTMENT.

AND IF YOU ACCEPT THAT IS GOING TO EITHER BE THERE OR BE AT RISK OF BEING THERE, THEN THE QUESTION BECOMES HOW DO YOU MAINTAIN IT?

HOW DO YOU MITIGATE IT?

HOW DO YOU KEEP IT FROM BECOMING TOO PERVASIVE WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT?

AND THE WAY TO DO THAT IS THROUGH ACCOUNTABILITY.

IT'S NOT-- YOU DON'T THINK OF ACCOUNTABILITY WHEN YOU HEAR ABOUT A SHOOTING.

YOU DON'T IMMEDIATELY THINK ABOUT IT, BUT IT IS ABSOLUTELY THE KEY-- THAT AND TRANSPARENCY, I WOULD SAY.

BUT THE KEY TOOL FOR KEEPING THAT CULTURE OF AGGRESSION AT BAY.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

AND I WANT TO GET TO SOME OF YOUR IDEAS, PRESCRIPTIVE IDEAS, FOR WHAT THE TASK AHEAD IS FOR THE CITY, LATER ON IN OUR CONVERSATION.

BUT LET'S STAY WITH CULTURE FOR JUST A MOMENT.

DURING THE 11 YEARS OF THIS FEDERAL OVERSIGHT PROJECT, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE IN YOUR WORK AS A CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER AND SOMEBODY THAT LIVES IN THE COMMUNITY AND PAYS ATTENTION, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE CHANGED ABOUT THAT CULTURE THROUGH THIS CONSENT DECREE PROCESS?

>> Fine: WELL, THE CONSENT DECREE PROCESS IS VAST.

AND THERE ARE MANY AREAS THAT WERE TARGETED FOR CHANGE.

THERE ARE NINE SPECIFIC AREAS THAT THEY'RE LOOKING TO REFORM.

AND DIFFERENT WAYS IN WHICH THOSE GET REFORMED.

SO, THERE WAS POLICY CHANGES.

THERE'S TRAINING CHANGES.

THERE'S BEEN ALL SORTS OF IMPORTANT WORK THAT'S BEEN DONE ON THOSE LEVELS.

WHEN YOU LOOK SPECIFICALLY AT THE QUESTION OF ACCOUNTABILITY FOR USE OF FORCE, THERE HAS BEEN A MACHINERY THAT'S BEEN CREATED THROUGH THE PROCESS-- THROUGH THE CONSENT DECREE PROCESS.

AND WITH A LOT OF WORK BETWEEN THE INDEPENDENT MONITOR AND APD TO CREATE SYSTEMS, PROCESSES, BY WHICH USE OF FORCE IS HELD ACCOUNTABLE WITHIN NEW MEXICO AND WITHIN ALBUQUERQUE.

AND THE-- I DO THINK THAT MACHINERY, THOSE SYSTEMS THAT ARE IN PLACE FOR USE OF FORCE, ALTHOUGH IT'S BEEN A STRUGGLE-- A BIG STRUGGLE OVER THE COURSE OF THAT BIT OF TIME.

>> Jeff: FITS AND STARTS, RIGHT?

>> Fine: ABSOLUTELY.

YES.

BUT THERE HAS BEEN A BUILDING OF AN INFRASTRUCTURE THAT ENABLES, SHOULD IT BE CONTINUED, SHOULD IT BE USED AND IMPLEMENTED IN THE WAY IT NEEDS TO BE WHICH IS NOT EASY, BUT SHOULD THAT CONTINUE, I THINK THAT IS A WAY OF DISCIPLINING AND KEEPING AT BAY THAT SUBCULTURE OF AGGRESSION.

>> Jeff: AND WE WERE CHATTING BEFOREHAND.

JUST IN YOUR INTERACTIONS WITH INDIVIDUAL OFFICERS, YOU'RE FEELING A LITTLE BIT OF THAT VIBE SHIFT.

TELL ME SOME ABOUT THOSE INTERACTIONS AND WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THOSE FROM BACK IN THE DAY.

>> Fine: YEAH.

I ENDED UP DEPOSING A LOT OF APD OFFICERS AND SUPERVISORS AND BRASS AS WELL.

I DO THINK-- IT'S ANECDOTAL.

ESPECIALLY WHEN I'M INTERVIEWING OR DEPOSING MID-LEVEL SUPERVISORS, WHAT YOU TEND TO SEE OR TEND TO PERCEIVE IS THAT THEY'VE PUT IN A LOT OF WORK IN TERMS OF CASA COMPLIANCE.

ON A LOT OF LEVELS, THEY BELIEVE IN CASA AND THE REFORMS IT'S BROUGHT.

AND THEY'RE WORKING HARD AND ALMOST TAKING SOME PRIDE IN THE WORK THAT'S BEEN DONE TO COMPLY WITH CASA.

SO, I DO FEEL LIKE THERE IS A-- ESPECIALLY AT THAT LEVEL, I HAVE PERCEIVED A CHANGE IN CULTURE THAT I HOPE CONTINUES MOVING FORWARD.

>> Jeff: LET'S LOOK AT THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN.

WHAT ARE SOME THINGS THAT YOU CAN THINK OF -- INDIVIDUAL INSTANCES, CASES YOU'VE HANDLED, WHATEVER -- THAT GIVE YOU THE IMPRESSION OF MEET THE NEW BOSS, SAME AS THE OLD BOSS?

>> Fine: IF ONE ASSUMES, AS I DO, THAT THIS SUBCULTURE OF AGGRESSION IS INHERENT IN POLICE DEPARTMENTS EVERYWHERE, THEN IN SOME WAYS IT IS SHOCKING BUT NOT SURPRISING TO SEE MANIFESTATIONS OF THAT CULTURE.

AND ONE CAN LOOK THROUGHOUT THIS, INCLUDING THROUGH THE CASA PROCESS, TO KNOW THAT SUBCULTURE STILL EXISTS.

THERE'S THE RECORDING OF OFFICERS TALKING ABOUT THEIR JOBS AND HOW THEY SEE THEMSELVES WORKING IN THE COMMUNITY -- THEIR ROLE IN THE COMMUNITY.

THERE'S DESCRIPTIONS THAT OFFICERS HAVE HAD OVER THE YEARS OF BEING-- SOME OF YOUR REPORTING REVEALED WASTE REMOVAL IS BEING THE TYPE OF JOB THAT THEY'RE DOING.

YOU SEE FLOURISHES OF THIS CULTURE PERIODICALLY.

ENOUGH TO KNOW IT STILL EXISTS, AND IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE AT RISK OF COMING BACK.

YOU ALSO SEE THAT CULTURE OF NON-ACCOUNTABILITY AT THE TOP.

YOU ALSO SEE INSTANCES IN WHICH THAT CULTURE OF NON-ACCOUNTABILITY IS STILL VERY MUCH GOING ON AT THE HIGHER LEVEL.

SO, EVEN THOUGH I THINK THE CONSENT DECREE PROCESS HAS DONE A LOT TO BRING ALONG THE ACCOUNTABILITY AND TO CHANGE AND MITIGATE THE CULTURE THAT EVERYBODY'S BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT FOR A LONG TIME, YOU STILL GET THESE REMINDERS THAT IT EXISTS.

AND IT'S IN CONSTANT BATTLE, REALLY, AND IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO BE IN CONSTANT BATTLE TO MAINTAIN THE CULTURE OF ACCOUNTABILITY AT THE TOP AND A CULTURE OF SAFE POLICE PRACTICES IN THE STREETS.

THAT'S JUST CONSTANTLY GOING TO BE A BATTLE IN ANY POLICE DEPARTMENT, ESPECIALLY IN ALBUQUERQUE.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO RETURN TO SOMETHING THAT YOU JUST SAID ABOUT EVIDENCE OF THAT CULTURE OF NON-ACCOUNTABILITY.

WE CAN'T REALLY HAVE THIS CONVERSATION WITHOUT DISCUSSING THE DWI CORRUPTION SCANDAL THAT IS ONGOING AT THIS POINT.

I'M INTERESTED IN YOUR THOUGHTS ON HOW THAT MIGHT CONNECT TO THE CONSENT DECREE PROJECT.

I HAD OUTGOING U.S. ATTORNEY ALEX UBALLEZ IN HERE, JUST BEFORE HE LEFT OFFICE, TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

AND I ASKED HIM, I SAID, ALEX, I READ THE CONSENT DECREE PORTION THAT DEALS WITH INTERNAL AFFAIRS.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT'S NOT SPECIFICALLY WED TO USE OF FORCE.

WHICH, OF COURSE, IS WHAT THE BROADER CONSENT DECREE PROJECT WAS ABOUT.

IT'S ABOUT, LIKE, ARE YOU ABLE TO HAVE INTERNAL CONTROL MECHANISMS THAT WOULD FIND STUFF LIKE THAT.

ALEX'S TAKE WAS THIS COULD AND MIGHT VERY WELL IMPACT THE END OF THE CONSENT DECREE.

CLEARLY, THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

BUT I WONDER, SORT OF, YOUR TAKE ON THAT.

>> Fine: YEAH.

I MEAN, THE PROCESS OF THE CONSENT DECREASE BUILDS INFRASTRUCTURE, BUILDS SCAFFOLDING, THROUGH WHICH YOU CAN SHAPE CULTURE.

BUT IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY DIRECTLY CHANGE CULTURE.

IT'S NOT WHAT IT WAS MEANT TO DO.

IT WAS MEANT TO PROVIDE ALL THESE PROCESSES FOR SHAPING AND IMPROVING CULTURE.

THE DWI SCANDAL CANNOT BE LOOKED AT AS ANYTHING OTHER THAN A HUGE RED FLAG FOR WHETHER THOSE PROCESSES ARE SUCCESSFUL AND WHETHER THEY'LL BE SUCCESSFUL IN THE FUTURE.

>> Jeff: YEAH.

I THINK I PROBABLY AGREE WITH THAT, BROADLY SPEAKING.

I WANT TO TALK FOR JUST A MINUTE ABOUT, SORT OF, A BROADER LOOK AT ALL OF THIS.

THE HISTORY OF THESE CONSENT DECREE PROJECTS.

THEY CAME ABOUT AS PART OF THE 1994 CRIME BILL FROM CONGRESS.

AND THE IDEA WAS TO GIVE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO THESE BIG, SWEEPING CIVIL RIGHTS INVESTIGATIONS OF POLICE DEPARTMENTS.

REALLY AIMED AT CULTURE, AS WE'RE SITTING HERE TALKING ABOUT TODAY.

PRIOR TO THAT, ALL THEY COULD REALLY DO IF THEY SAW BIG PROBLEMS IN POLICE DEPARTMENTS, COME IN AND INDICT A HANDFUL OF COPS AND LEAVE TOWN.

THE IDEA WAS TO CHANGE CULTURE.

SO, GIVEN THAT THAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THESE THINGS, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THESE ARE AN EFFECTIVE TOOL, EITHER FOR POLICE IN ALBUQUERQUE, OR ANYWHERE ELSE?

>> Fine: I DO.

I'VE LOOKED AT ENOUGH OF THE REPORTS FROM THE INDEPENDENT MONITOR HERE TO SEE THE LEVEL OF DETAIL THAT'S DESCRIBED, AND THE WORK THAT'S BEEN DONE IN THIS PARTICULAR CONSENT DECREE.

AND YOU JUST SEE THE IMPROVEMENT IN THE SYSTEMS, AGAIN, THE STRUCTURES THAT ARE GOING TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR CONTROLLING POLICE CULTURE WITHIN A PARTICULAR DEPARTMENT.

SO, I DO THINK IT IS AN EFFECTIVE DELIVERY MECHANISM FOR THOSE SYSTEMS THAT ARE GOING TO HELP CONTROL.

SO, THE HISTORY IN ALBUQUERQUE OF THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE CONSENT DECREE AND COMPLIANCE HAS BEEN-- I MEAN, THERE WERE MANY, MANY INSTANCES IN WHICH THE MONITOR WAS FINDING THAT THERE WAS TERRIBLE COMPLIANCE IN SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT AREAS, INCLUDING USE OF FORCE ACCOUNTABILITY.

>> Jeff: ACTIVE RESISTANCE, EVEN.

>> Fine: THE TERM THAT COMES UP TIME AND TIME AGAIN IS DELIBERATE.

DELIBERATE DEFIANCE.

DELIBERATE OR WILLFUL DEFIANCE OF COMPLIANCE.

THAT WAS THE CASE UP-- LIKE, WE'RE NOT TALKING ANCIENT HISTORY.

THIS IS HAPPENING IN 2019, 2020, 2021, UP UNTIL 2022.

YOU'RE STILL GETTING REPORTS, IN PARTICULAR, ON THIS AREA OF USES OF FORCE ACCOUNTABILITY.

YOU'RE STILL GETTING REPORTS OF DELIBERATE DEFIANCE OF THE SOME OF THE MAIN, IN FACT, THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THE REFORM EFFORTS, WHICH IS TO HOLD USE OF FORCE ACCOUNTABLE SO IT'S NOT HAPPENING IN A WAY THAT'S OUT OF CONTROL IN THE STREETS.

>> Jeff: YEAH.

WE'VE GOT A COUPLE MINUTES LEFT FOR THIS PART OF THE CHAT.

I'M CURIOUS ABOUT YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE WAY THE CITY HAS TALKED PUBLICLY ABOUT THE END OF THIS.

THE DISMISSAL OF THE CASE.

>> Fine: I CAN SAY THAT THE TASK BEFORE THE CITY IN ENSURING THAT THE REFORM CONTINUES IS MOMENTOUS.

THAT IS NOT GOING TO BE AN EASY THING TO DO WITHOUT THE MACHINERY AND THE WATCHFUL EYE OF THE INDEPENDENT MONITOR AND THE DOJ AND THE COURT.

AND WHILE I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THE CITY WOULD BE PLEASED WITH THE END OF THIS EFFORT, GIVEN THE TASK THAT'S BEFORE IT, THERE SHOULD BE A HIGH LEVEL OF HUMILITY IN TERMS OF LOOKING FORWARD AND HOW IT IS GOING TO MAINTAIN THE STANDARDS THAT HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED AND THE PROCESSES THAT HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED THROUGH THE CONSENT DECREE PROCESS.

I HAVEN'T SEEN A PLAN FOR HOW THAT'S GOING TO BE DONE.

IF ONE WAS APPROACHING THAT TASK WITH THE LEVEL OF HUMILITY AND THE INTEREST IN ENSURING THAT SAFETY IS MAINTAINED ON THE STREETS, THEN IT WOULD BE NICE TO SEE, LIKE, HERE'S HOW WE'RE GOING TO DO THIS.

AND THAT'S NOT SOMETHING I'VE SEEN IN THE RELEASES-- THE PRESS RELEASES AND OTHER MEDIA ENCOUNTERS FROM APD AND THE CITY.

>> Nash: ALBUQUERQUE'S INTERNATIONAL DISTRICT NEIGHBORHOOD, ONE OF THE CITY'S POOREST AND MOST RACIALLY DIVERSE, HAS BEEN THE TARGET OF FEDERAL, COUNTY, AND CITY SPECIAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OPERATIONS OVER THE YEARS.

THAT'S RESULTED IN RESIDENTS THERE SAYING THEY FEEL OVER-POLICED.

AND MAKES THEM A PARTICULARLY STRONG GAGE FOR THE COMMUNITY TRUST THAT APD HAS LOST OVER THE YEARS AND ANY IT'S REGAINED THROUGH THIS PROCESS.

THAT'S WHY WE WANTED TO HEAR FROM THE NEIGHBORHOOD'S CITY COUNCILOR, NICHOLE ROGERS, WHO ALSO LIVES THERE.

SHE RAN FOR HER SEAT IN 2023, IN PART, ON A PLATFORM OF IMPROVING POLICING.

WE'LL HEAR MUCH MORE FROM THE COUNCILOR IN NEXT WEEK'S SHOW WHEN WE LOOK AHEAD TO THE ROLE OF CITY COUNCIL IN KEEPING AN EYE ON APD.

THIS WEEK, WE WANTED TO TAKE A GLIMPSE OF HOW SHE AND HER CONSTITUENTS ARE FEELING ABOUT THE DOJ STEPPING AWAY.

CITY COUNCILOR NICHOLE ROGERS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

>> Rogers: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Nash: SO, I COVERED YOUR 2023 COUNCIL RACE.

AT THE TIME, YOU HAD SAID THAT TRUST BUILDING WAS STILL NEEDED AMONG THE POLICE AND INTERNATIONAL DISTRICT RESIDENTS.

DO YOU STILL FEEL THAT'S THE CASE?

>> Rogers: YES.

I DO.

I'VE BEEN IN THIS ROLE A YEAR AND A HALF NOW.

DEFINITELY DON'T THINK WE'VE DONE THE WORK TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE GENERATIONS OF NOT TRUSTING.

NO, I THINK WE STILL HAVE A WAYS TO GO.

>> Nash: WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM YOUR CONSTITUENTS?

DO THEY REACH OUT TO YOU?

DO THEY TALK ABOUT WHETHER THEY'RE BEING TREATED DIFFERENTLY BY THE POLICE THROUGH THIS CONSENT DECREE PROCESS, OR WHETHER THINGS HAVE STAYED PRETTY MUCH STATUS QUO?

>> Rogers: I THINK IT DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU GO IN MY DISTRICT.

I ALWAYS SAY IT'S A TALE OF FOUR DIFFERENT CITIES IN ONE DISTRICT.

IF YOU GO TO MESA DEL SOL, THEY'RE HAPPY.

AND THERE'S NOT A LOT OF CRIME.

THEY'RE VERY HAPPY WITH POLICING THERE.

WHEN YOU GET TO PLACES LIKE THE INTERNATIONAL DISTRICT, YEAH, RESIDENTS FEEL LIKE THEY'RE OVER-POLICED, OVER-ENFORCED.

NOT JUST POLICE, BUT CODE ENFORCEMENT.

ALL OF THE OPERATIONS HAPPENING ON CENTRAL.

IT'S REALLY MIXED.

WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE SCARED AND DON'T FEEL LIKE THOSE RELATIONSHIPS ARE ANY BETTER IN INTERACTIONS WITH POLICE.

AND THERE ARE FOLKS WHO, OBVIOUSLY, WANT MORE.

AND WANT POLICE TO DO WHAT POLICE DO.

SO, IT'S AN INTERESTING PLACE TO BE AS A REPRESENTATIVE FOR ALL OF THE DIFFERENT OPINIONS.

BUT I THINK, OVERALL, WE CAN DO BETTER.

>> Nash: MM-HMM.

HAVE YOU HEARD FROM THE FOLKS WHO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WHO DON'T HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH THE POLICE?

HAVE YOU ANY REACTION FROM THEM SINCE THE CONSENT DECREE WAS DISMISSED?

HOW ARE THEY FEELING ABOUT THE END OF THIS?

>> Rogers: YEAH, I THINK THEY LOOK AT THE CURRENT NUMBERS FOR PEOPLE KILLED BY APD AND SEE THAT THEY'RE REALLY HIGH STILL.

AND SEE, OH, BUT THE DOJ IS LEAVING, EVERYTHING'S FINE.

WE DON'T NEED THEM ANYMORE.

I THINK PUBLIC PERCEPTION OF THOSE TWO DON'T JIVE.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING WITH.

>> Nash: THE CONSENT DECREE DISMISSAL HAS COME SOONER THAN WHAT SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WOULD.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE TIMING OF THIS?

>> Rogers: YOU KNOW, TIMING IS EVERYTHING.

I THINK THERE'S DEFINITELY SOMETHING TO THE TIMING FOR ME.

IT'S INTERESTING THAT AT A TIME WHERE OUR MAYOR AND CHIEF ARE SAYING CRIME IS DOWN, AT A TIME WHEN THEY'RE ASKING FOR HELP FROM THE NATIONAL GUARD, WE DO STILL SEE A LOT OF DEATHS AT THE HANDS OF POLICE HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

TO ME, IT'S AN INTERESTING TIME TO SAY WE DON'T NEED THEM ANYMORE.

I HAVE MIXED FEELINGS PERSONALLY ABOUT THAT.

I LIKED HAVING A PERSON IN SOMEONE LIKE DR. GINGER TO GO AND ASK QUESTIONS OF.

>> Nash: AND THAT WAS THE INDEPENDENT MONITOR.

>> Rogers: YEAH, THE INDEPENDENT MONITOR FOR DOJ.

-- TO BE ABLE TO ASK QUESTIONS AND GET THINGS MY CONSTITUENTS ARE WORRIED ABOUT AND BEING ABLE TO GET FACTS RIGHT AWAY AND GET THAT INFORMATION TO MY CONSTITUENTS.

DO I THINK WE STILL NEED OVERSIGHT?

YES.

AND I THINK THAT THAT'S GOING TO HAVE TO HEAVILY FALL ON COUNCIL NOW, TO MAKE SURE WE'RE HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE AND ASKING THE QUESTIONS AND MAKING SURE WE'RE DOING THE RIGHT THINGS.

>> Nash: THANKS TO CITY COUNCILOR NICHOLE ROGERS AND THANKS TO EVERYONE ELSE WHO CONTRIBUTED TO THE SHOW.

JOIN US NEXT WEEK FOR PART TWO OF OUR LOOK AT THE END OF THE APD CONSENT DECREE.

WE'LL DIG INTO WHAT THE FUTURE MAY HOLD FOR THE DEPARTMENT AND HOLDING IT ACCOUNTABLE.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

UNTIL NEXT WEEK, STAY FOCUSED.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.