♪ RUBENSTEIN: HOW HAS HUMOR CHANGED?

PEOPLE LAUGH AT THE SAME KIND OF THINGS?

ARE THERE CERTAIN THINGS YOU CAN MAKE FUN OF NOW YOU COULDN'T OR VICE VERSA?

MICHAELS: THERE'S NOTHING WE DID IN THE SEVENTIES THAT I COULD DO NOW.

RUBENSTEIN: HAVE YOU EVER GOTTEN WORRIED THAT YOU PICKED A GUEST HOST WHO REALLY ISN'T UP TO THE TASK?

MICHAELS: YEAH.

RUBENSTEIN: AND HOW DO YOU COACH THEM, AND "MAYBE YOU COULD DO A BETTER JOB AND BE READY"?

MICHAELS: YOU CAN GET ALMOST ANYONE THROUGH IT.

RUBENSTEIN: WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO BE A LEADER?

MICHAELS: IF YOU ARE IN POWER, I THINK EVERYBODY SORT OF KNOWS YOU'RE IN POWER, SO DON'T EVER HAVE TO EXPLAIN YOU'RE IN POWER.

WOMAN: WOULD YOU FIX YOUR TIE, PLEASE?

RUBENSTEIN: WELL, PEOPLE WOULDN'T RECOGNIZE ME IF MY TIE WAS FIXED, BUT OK. JUST LEAVE IT THIS WAY?

ALL RIGHT.

I DON'T CONSIDER MYSELF A JOURNALIST, AND NOBODY ELSE WOULD CONSIDER MYSELF A JOURNALIST.

I BEGAN TO TAKE ON THE LIFE OF BEING AN INTERVIEWER, EVEN THOUGH I HAVE A DAY JOB OF RUNNING A PRIVATE EQUITY FIRM.

HOW DO YOU DEFINE LEADERSHIP?

WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES SOMEBODY TICK?

DID YOU THINK AT THE BEGINNING THAT YOU WERE GOING TO CHANGE TELEVISION HISTORY AND THE HISTORY OF COMEDY WHEN YOU WERE STARTING THAT SHOW IN 1975?

MICHAELS: I DON'T THINK I THOUGHT OF IT IN THOSE TERMS, BUT I THOUGHT THAT IF WE ACTUALLY GOT ON THE AIR AND DID THE SHOW THAT THE PEOPLE WHO WERE DOING THE SHOW WOULD STAY HOME TO WATCH.

I THOUGHT THERE WERE ENOUGH PEOPLE LIKE US BECAUSE WE ALL PRETTY MUCH COME FROM THE AUDIENCE.

I WAS PROBABLY THE PERSON WHO'D HAD THE MOST EXPERIENCE IN TELEVISION, BUT MOST PEOPLE, IT WAS THE FIRST TIME THEY'D BEEN ON TELEVISION, SO-- RUBENSTEIN: MOST EXPERIENCE, BUT YOU WERE ONLY 30 YEARS OLD?

MICHAELS: 30, YEAH.

RUBENSTEIN: SO THE OTHERS WERE IN THEIR 20s OR-- MICHAELS: YEAH.

I THINK DAN AYKROYD WAS 22.

I THINK JOHN BELUSHI WAS 24.

I THINK GILDA WAS 24.

CHEVY WAS A LITTLE OLDER THAN ME.

RUBENSTEIN: WHY WOULD A 30-YEAR-OLD BE PICKED TO PRODUCE THIS SHOW?

WHAT WAS YOUR BACKGROUND THAT ENABLED SOMEBODY TO THINK YOU WOULD HAVE EXPERIENCE TO DO THIS?

MICHAELS: I THINK, FIRST AND FOREMOST, IT WAS VERY LOW STAKES, YOU KNOW?

LIKE, LATE NIGHT DOESN'T AVERAGE INTO PRIME TIME RATINGS, SO IT WAS NO ONE'S REAL RESPONSIBILITY, AND CARSON WAS ON 5 NIGHTS A WEEK, AND THAT WAS DOING REALLY WELL, SO WHEN I'D DONE TELEVISION AND I'D DONE TELEVISION IN LOS ANGELES BOTH IN THE LATE SIXTIES AND THEN WHEN I MOVED BACK IN 1972, AND THE MORE AMBITIOUS THINGS THAT I WOULD SUGGEST OR GO IN AND MEET ABOUT, THEY'D ALWAYS SAY IT WOULDN'T WORK IN PRIME TIME BECAUSE IN THOSE DAYS, YOU NEEDED A 40 SHARE OF THE AUDIENCE TO STAY ON THE AIR.

RUBENSTEIN: A 40 SHARE MEANS 40% OF THE PEOPLE WATCHING TELEVISION-- MICHAELS: 40% OF THE AUDIENCE IS WATCHING YOU, AND SO THEY'D SAY, "IT WON'T WORK," OR, "IT'LL JUST WORK ON THE COASTS," AND I WAS FROM CANADA, AND I KIND OF KNEW WHAT WAS IN BETWEEN THE COASTS, AND I THOUGHT THERE WERE PLENTY OF PEOPLE LIKE ME OUT THERE, AND IT WAS A DIFFERENT GENERATION, AND WE WERE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BABY BOOM.

I'D WORKED ON SHOWS LIKE "LAUGH-IN" AS A WRITER, AND I'D DONE SEVERAL-- WELL, SHOWS WITH LILY TOMLIN AND RICHARD PRYOR, WHICH WERE ALWAYS SPECIALS, AND I'D DONE ENOUGH THAT I SORT OF KNEW HOW YOU DO IT, AND IT WAS A QUESTION OF PUTTING TOGETHER A SHOW WHICH WAS, ON SOME LEVEL, NEW WINE IN OLD BOTTLES, YOU KNOW, SO I TOOK ELEMENTS OF VARIOUS VARIETY SHOWS AND KNEW THAT WE'D BE DIFFERENT BECAUSE WE'D BE DOING IT.

RUBENSTEIN: SO YOU GREW UP IN TORONTO?

MICHAEL: TORONTO, CANADA.

YEAH.

RUBENSTEIN: AND DID YOU GROW UP AND SAY, "I WANT TO BE A LAWYER OR DOCTOR," LIKE ALL NICE, YOUNG, JEWISH BOYS IN THOSE DAYS?

MICHAELS: NO.

I THINK IT WAS-- MY GRANDPARENTS OWNED A MOVIE THEATER, AND I THINK FROM AN EARLY AGE, I THINK, IF ASKED IN, LIKE, THE THIRD GRADE WHAT I WANTED TO DO, I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE SAID LAWYER BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT I WOULD HAVE WANTED TO BE IN THE MOVIES.

RUBENSTEIN: AND DID YOU AT ONE POINT SAY, "I REALLY WANT TO MAKE MY CAREER IN CANADA," OR, "THE BIG TIME IS REALLY IN THE UNITED STATES?"

MICHAELS: I FELT AT THE TIME-- 1967 WAS THE 100th BIRTHDAY OF CANADA, CENTENNIAL, AND THERE WAS A NEW SPIRIT IN THE COUNTRY, AND I THOUGHT I'D BE PERFECTLY HAPPY TO BE HERE THE REST OF MY LIFE AND THEN GOT AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO A SHOW IN CALIFORNIA CALLED "THE BEAUTIFUL PHYLLIS DILLER SHOW," VARIETY SHOW, AND WE'D WRITTEN-- I WAS WORKING WITH A PARTNER THEN, HART POMERANTZ, AND WE'D WRITE AND PERFORM, AND WE'D WROTE SOME STAND-UP FOR VARIOUS--FOR WOODY ALLEN, JOAN RIVERS, AND PEOPLE LIKE THAT, NOT THAT WE INFLUENCED THEIR CAREERS, BUT WE'D HAD ENOUGH EXPERIENCE, AND WE PERFORMED.

RUBENSTEIN: SO YOU PICKED A NUMBER OF THE FAMOUS PEOPLE WHO LATER WENT ON TO GREAT FAME AND FORTUNE... MICHAELS: UH-HUH.

RUBENSTEIN: AND WHEN THE FIRST SHOW GOES ON, RIGHT, WHEN IT'S OVER, ARE YOU CONVINCED YOU HAVE A GREAT HIT FOREVER, OR YOU'RE NOT SURE?

MICHAELS: WHEN WE WERE BEGINNING-- I'VE SAID THIS OFTEN-- BUT I HAD ALL THE INGREDIENTS.

I JUST DIDN'T HAVE THE RECIPE, SO BETWEEN THE FIRST SHOW AND THE SECOND SHOW, WE CHANGED.

SECOND SHOW WAS PAUL SIMON.

THIRD SHOW WAS ROB REINER WITH PENNY MARSHALL, AND BY THE FOURTH SHOW, WE'D SORT OF FOUND THE SHOW WITH CANDY BERGEN.

WE FOUND THE SHOW THAT RESEMBLES THE SHOW TODAY.

RUBENSTEIN: SO THE ORIGINAL IDEA WAS TO HAVE A CAST OF CHARACTERS--THE NOT READY FOR PRIME TIME PLAYERS, AS THEY WERE CALLED-- AND A HOST.

MICHAELS: A DIFFERENT HOST EVERY WEEK.

RUBENSTEIN: WHO WAS YOUR HOST THE FIRST WEEK, THE FIRST SHOW?

MICHAELS: GEORGE CARLIN.

RUBENSTEIN: AND WAS HE SO FUNNY IN THOSE DAYS, YOU KNEW IT WOULD BE A HIT, OR WAS HE TOO COMPLICATED-- MICHAELS: NO.

I KNOW THAT HE HAD MONOLOGUES THAT WOULD WORK, AND I THOUGHT HE WAS FUNNY.

THE BIGGEST CONTROVERSY IN THAT FIRST SHOW WAS, THE NETWORK WANTED HIM TO WEAR A SUIT, A JACKET AND TIE, AND HE DIDN'T WANT TO.

HE WANTED TO WEAR A T-SHIRT.

I WAS-- IT WAS NOT THE BIGGEST THING IN MY LIFE.

I LET HIM WEAR WHAT HE WANTS, BUT THE COMPROMISE, WHICH TOOK UP A LOT OF TIME ON SHOW DAY, WAS, HE WORE A SUIT WITH A T-SHIRT, WHICH WAS THE PERFECT SOLUTION.

RUBENSTEIN: SO DID YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CENSOR FOR WORDS THAT MIGHT NOT BE APPROPRIATE OR-- MICHAELS: THERE WAS A LOT OF DISCUSSIONS ABOUT WHAT WE COULD DO AND WHAT WE COULDN'T DO AND WHAT YOU COULD DO AT 11:30 AND WHAT YOU COULD DO AT MIDNIGHT.

I THINK THAT WE SORT OF-- WE WERE, YOU KNOW, ALL THOSE PHRASES FROM THE SEVENTIES, LIKE "CUTTING EDGE" AND "PUSHING THE ENVELOPE" AND ALL THAT.

I THINK WE WERE JUST TRYING TO REFLECT LIFE AS WE WERE LIVING IT, AND ALSO 1975, IT'S THE END OF THE VIETNAM WAR.

YOU KNOW, THE PRESIDENT RESIGNED.

NEW YORK CITY WAS BANKRUPT.

IT WAS A LITTLE WINDOW THAT OPENED WHERE IT WASN'T BUSINESS AS USUAL.

RUBENSTEIN: ALL RIGHT, SO FROM 1975 TO LATE SEVENTIES OR EARLY 1980s, HOW HAS HUMOR CHANGED?

PEOPLE LAUGH AT THE SAME KIND OF THINGS, OR ARE THERE CERTAIN THINGS YOU CAN MAKE FUN OF NOW YOU COULDN'T OR VICE VERSA?

MICHAELS: THERE'S ALMOST NOTHING WE DID IN THE SEVENTIES THAT I COULD DO NOW.

GILDA RADNER WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PLAY ROSANNE ROSANNADANNA.

JOHN BELUSHI WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PLAY JAPANESE.

GARRETT MORRIS DOING "NEWS FOR HARD-OF-HEARING" WOULD HAVE BEEN MAKING FUN OF A HANDICAP, SO IT JUST ALL--VALUES CHANGE, AND THEN, I WOULD SAY THAT BETWEEN THE MOVIE "ARTHUR" AND THE MOVIE "ARTHUR 2," ALCOHOLISM BECAME A DISEASE, AND NO ONE WANTED TO LAUGH AT DRUNKS ANYMORE, WHEREAS FOR 200 YEARS, THEY'D LAUGHED AT DRUNKS.

RUBENSTEIN: SO LET'S TAKE PEOPLE THROUGH HOW THE SHOW IS ACTUALLY PRODUCED.

ON A MONDAY, DO YOU RECOVER FROM THE PREVIOUS WEEK, AND DO YOU ACTUALLY GO TO WORK ON MONDAY AND-- MICHAELS: YEAH.

NO.

EVERYBODY HAS TO SHOW UP MONDAY.

I'LL HAVE A MEETING WHICH, I'VE HAD FROM BEGINNING, AT 5:00 ON MONDAYS WHICH HAS ALL THE WRITING STAFF, ALL THE CAST, THE HOST, PEOPLE FROM THE MUSIC DEPARTMENT, PEOPLE FROM THE FILM DEPARTMENT, AND WE ALL GATHER IN MY OFFICE.

THEY GATHER, I'M BEHIND A DESK, AND I GO AROUND THE ROOM AND ASK EVERYBODY WHAT THEIR IDEA IS.

RUBENSTEIN: AND IN YOUR 45 YEARS OF DOING THIS, ALMOST 45 YEARS, HAVE YOU EVER HAD A PRIVATE EQUITY PERSON AS A GUEST HOST?

- NOT-- - NOT YET?

MICHAELS: IT'S BEEN SUGGESTED, BUT NEVER--WE HAVEN'T DONE IT.

RUBENSTEIN: WELL, MAYBE THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY AT SOME POINT, SO TUESDAY, WEDNESDAY, YOU'RE KIND OF WRITING IT.

YOU HAVE A DINNER WITH PEOPLE.

THEN THURSDAY AND FRIDAY, YOU DO DRESS REHEARSALS OR-- MICHAELS: NO.

WE CHOOSE THE SHOW ON WEDNESDAY.

WE READ 40 TO 45 PIECES LOOKING FOR 13 OR 14.

ONCE THAT'S CHOSEN, THEN THE DESIGNERS BEGIN DESIGNING THE SETS.

THEN THOSE PLANS GO OUT TO THE SHOP LATE THAT NIGHT, AND THEY START.

THE FILM UNIT GOES OFF TO FIGURE OUT HOW THEY'RE GOING TO SHOOT THE TWO OR 3 PIECES WE'RE SHOOTING.

WE ARE ALWAYS ASSESSING WHO HAS NOT AS MUCH TO DO AS WE'D LIKE, AND SO WE'VE LEFT THE OPENING OF THE SHOW AND GENERALLY ONE OR TWO SPOTS OPEN FOR ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS BETWEEN THEN AND-- RUBENSTEIN: AND HAVE YOU EVER GOTTEN WORRIED THAT YOU PICKED A GUEST HOST WHO REALLY ISN'T UP TO THE TASK?

MICHAELS: YEAH.

RUBENSTEIN: AND HOW DO YOU COACH THEM, AND "MAYBE YOU COULD DO A BETTER JOB AND BE READY"?

MICHAELS: YOU CAN GET ALMOST ANYONE THROUGH IT.

IT'S AN ODD HYBRID BECAUSE YOU'RE ON STAGE, SO THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY GOOD AT THAT, BUT THEN THERE'S ALSO CAMERAS, AND ALSO THE SCRIPT IS CONSTANTLY CHANGING UP TO THE LAST MINUTE, SO IT TAKES A LEVEL OF FOCUS, AND THERE'S A POINT WHICH THE HOST REALLY JUST GIVES UP AND GOES, "YOU HAVE TO TRUST IT AT THIS POINT THAT IT WILL ALL COME TOGETHER."

RUBENSTEIN: SO IN ANTICIPATION OF MY GETTING A CHANCE TO DO THIS WITH YOU, YOU INVITED ME TO COME TO ONE OF THE SHOWS RECENTLY, AND I WAS SURPRISED HOW SMALL THE STUDIO ACTUALLY IS.

NOW, THIS IS A STUDIO THAT ARTURO TOSCANINI CONDUCTED THE NBC ORCHESTRA AT ONE POINT.

MICHAELS: YEAH.

IT WAS BUILT ON SPRINGS, LITERALLY.

THE NBC SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA AND TOSCANINI WAS THAT IMPORTANT, AND ROCKEFELLER CENTER HAD BEEN BUILT, SO THEY PUT THIS IN BETWEEN FLOORS SO THAT THE SUBWAY NOISE WOULDN'T AFFECT IT.

A LOT OF THAT WAS CHANGED WHEN TELEVISION CAME IN BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT SOUND WOULDN'T MATTER.

TURNS OUT, IT DID.

RUBENSTEIN: I NOTICED WHEN I WAS THERE THAT YOU WALKING AROUND THE SET OF IT, AND I NOTICE SOMETIMES WHEN I WATCH ON TV THAT YOU'RE STARING AT WHAT'S GOING ON, AND YOU DON'T SMILE THAT MUCH WHEN YOU'RE DOING THIS, AND DO YOU EVER THINK, "UH-OH.

THIS ISN'T GOING AS WELL AS I THOUGHT," SO YOU TELL THE PEOPLE, "FIX IT," OR DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SHOW?

MICHAELS: NO.

I MEAN, THERE'S SOME OF THAT, BUT MOSTLY IT'S ABOUT TIME, SO THE CASTS ARE GOOD ENOUGH THAT IF YOU ARE RUNNING A MINUTE OR TWO LONG, YOU CAN JUST GO... AND THEY UNDERSTAND, AND THEY CAN JUST PICK IT UP, GO FASTER, OR ELSE WE TAKE A PAGE OUT OF SOMETHING.

RUBENSTEIN: AND THERE ARE CASES WERE YOU THINK YOU HAD A REALLY FUNNY SKETCH OR A SCRIPT AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, PEOPLE AREN'T LAUGHING IN THE STUDIO, OR THE REVERSE IS WHERE YOU'RE NOT SURE IT'S THAT FUNNY, ALL OF A SUDDEN, IT BECOMES VERY FUNNY?

MICHAELS: YES.

YOU CHOOSE THE PIECES ON WEDNESDAY, REHEARSE THEM THURSDAY AND FRIDAY AND AGAIN SATURDAY AFTERNOON IN COSTUME AND MAKEUP, AND THEN YOU DO A DRESS REHEARSAL, WHICH IS THE FIRST TIME THE 300, 400 PEOPLE COME IN AND SEE IT, AND WHATEVER YOU THOUGHT, IF THEY DISAGREE, THEY'RE RIGHT, SO WE WILL ADJUST FROM THAT.

THINGS THAT YOU THOUGHT WERE SUREFIRE DON'T PLAY, AND THINGS THAT-- AND A LOT OF IT IS PLACEMENT, WHERE THEY WERE IN THE SHOW.

LIKE, IF IT'S A HARDER PIECE, IF YOU PLAY IT EARLY, IT PROBABLY WON'T WORK, AND SO IT'S WHERE YOU PLAY THINGS, RUNNING ORDER, AND ALSO TOPICALITY.

RUBENSTEIN: SO YOU DON'T GET PEOPLE CALLING YOU FROM THE NETWORK THAT OWNS YOU-- NBC IS OWNED BY COMCAST NOW-- SAYING, "JEEZ, YOU'RE BEING TOO TOUGH ON A POLITICAL FIGURE"?

THEY JUST LEAVE YOU ALONE.

MICHAELS: NO.

THEY LEAVE US ALONE, AND THE COMCAST PEOPLE HAVE BEEN BRILLIANT BECAUSE, ONE, I DON'T THINK THEY WANT TO BE DOING THE SHOW THEMSELVES, SO THERE'S THAT, AND ALSO IT'S JUST BEEN STEVE BURKE, BRIAN ROBERTS, JUST UNWAVERING SUPPORT, SO-- RUBENSTEIN: SO RIGHT NOW, YOU ARE PRETTY FAMOUS AS THE PRODUCER FOR ALMOST 45 YEARS OF THE SHOW.

MICHAELS: YEAH.

RUBENSTEIN: YOU WILL HAVE A GREAT LEGACY, NO MATTER IF YOU WERE TO LEAVE TOMORROW, BUT YOUR PLAN IS TO KEEP DOING IT FOR AS LONG AS YOU CAN?

MICHAELS: PHYSICALLY, YEAH.

RUBENSTEIN: YOU HAVE ANY OUTSIDE HOBBIES OR INTERESTS BEYOND THE SHOW?

BECAUSE-- - OF COURSE.

- WELL, WHAT ARE YOUR THINGS?

RUBENSTEIN: WHAT DO YOU DO TO RELAX?

MICHAELS: I TEND TO GO AWAY.

I TEND TO TRAVEL, OR I GO OUT TO THE COUNTRY OR-- MY MODE OF THINKING IS WALKING, SO I GO FOR LONG WALKS, AND THINGS GET CLEARER AFTER A WHILE.

RUBENSTEIN: OK, SO WHEN YOU'RE NOT DOING "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE," YOU'RE ALSO PRODUCING SOME OTHER TELEVISION SHOWS, SO YOU'RE PRODUCING "LATE NIGHT."

MICHAELS: YEAH.

NO.

I DID "THE TONIGHT SHOW," AND SETH MEYERS', YOU KNOW, THE "LATE NIGHT" SHOW, BUT IN ALL OF THOSE, LIKE, "30 ROCK" IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE.

TINA FEY WAS A BRILLIANT HEAD WRITER ON "SNL" AND THEN CAST MEMBER AND DID "UPDATE."

SHE WANTED TO DO A SERIES.

WE DID "MEAN GIRLS" TOGETHER AS A MOVIE.

SHE WANTED TO DO A TELEVISION SERIES.

IT ENDED UP BEING "30 ROCK," AND WHAT I WILL DO IS, I'LL BE ALL OVER IT AT THE BEGINNING TO MAKE SURE THAT IT'S ON TRACK AND THAT IT'S THE BEST VERSION OF WHAT IT COULD BE, AND THEN ONCE IT'S SORT OF GOING OR GOING WELL ENOUGH, I WILL TIPTOE OUT OF THE ROOM, AND I GO BACK TO MY OTHER JOB, WHICH IS "SNL," SO MOST OF MY FOCUS IS "SNL" BECAUSE IT'S COMPELLING AND BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING MINUTE TO MINUTE, AND THEN WITH "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JIMMY FALLON," WHO ALSO-- AND SETH MEYERS ON "LATE NIGHT," THESE ARE PEOPLE I WORKED WITH, AND WE HAVE A SHORTHAND, AND I HAVE FAITH IN THEM, AND SO YOU CAN SORT OF SEE THAT PROCESS.

RUBENSTEIN: SO SOMETIMES HUMOR IS SO FUNNY ON YOUR SHOW THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST CAN'T STOP LAUGHING, AND-- MICHAELS: UH-HUH.

THEY DO EVENTUALLY.

RUBENSTEIN: EVENTUALLY, BUT, I MEAN, IS THERE ANYTHING THAT MAKES YOU LAUGH SO UPROARIOUSLY THAT YOU CAN'T CONTROL YOUR OWN LAUGHTER?

MICHAELS: THERE'S ALWAYS SOMETHING IN THE SHOW THAT I'M REALLY PROUD OF, AND ALSO COMEDY, IT'S A DISRUPTIVE THING, YOU KNOW?

PEOPLE DON'T PLAN TO LAUGH.

THEY'RE TAUGHT WHEN TO APPLAUD, BUT THEY'RE NOT TAUGHT WHEN TO LAUGH, SO THERE'S SOMETHING THAT'S ALWAYS SURPRISING, AND WHEN YOU SEE THE PAIRING OF REALLY GOOD WRITING AND A BRILLIANT PERFORMANCE, WHEN THEY'RE LOCKED IN, IT'S THRILLING.

RUBENSTEIN: SO WHEN PEOPLE ARE MADE FAMOUS BY YOUR SHOW AND THEN GO ON TO GREAT FAME AND FORTUNE BEYOND YOUR SHOW, DO THEY EVER CALL YOU UP AND SAY, "THANK YOU VERY MUCH "FOR EVERYTHING YOU DID FOR ME, AND COULDN'T HAVE DONE IT WITHOUT YOU," OR THEY FORGET TO DO THAT?

MICHAELS: I THINK THERE'S VERY STRONG FEELINGS ON BOTH SIDES OF IT.

WHEN WE DID THE 40th ANNIVERSARY A COUPLE YEARS AGO, I THINK EVERYONE-- ALL THE PEOPLE WERE INVITED WHO'D WORKED ON THE SHOW, PLUS PEOPLE WHO'D HOSTED THE SHOW, AND I THINK WHEN PEOPLE LOOKED AROUND THE ROOM AND SAW ALL THE DIFFERENT GENERATIONS OF PEOPLE WHO'D DONE IT, IT WAS, PEOPLE REALIZED THAT WHAT WE'D DONE WAS IMPORTANT, AND RECENTLY, COUPLE WEEKS AGO, ADAM SANDLER WAS HOSTING THE SHOW, AND HE DID A SONG ABOUT CHRIS FARLEY, AND I DID A LOT OF WORK WITH CHRIS FARLEY, AND ADAM AND HE WERE VERY CLOSE, OBVIOUSLY, BUT WHAT HAPPENED WAS, HE WAS DOING THIS TRIBUTE, AND YOU LOOKED AROUND THE STUDIO, AND CREW WERE THE SAME CREW.

THE PEOPLE IN DESIGN WERE THE SAME PEOPLE, AND YOU SORT OF SAW PEOPLE TEARING UP, AND YOU REALIZED IT'S JUST AN IMPORTANT THING, AND ON THAT STAGE IN THAT ROOM WHERE EVERYONE HAS BEEN WORKING FOREVER, IT JUST HAD REAL POWER.

RUBENSTEIN: SO ON YOUR LAPEL, YOU'RE WEARING A PIN, WHICH IS, I GUESS, THE ORDER OF CANADA?

- YEAH.

- AND THAT SIGNIFIES-- RUBENSTEIN: THAT THE HIGHEST HONOR YOU CAN GET AS A CANADA CITIZEN OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

MICHAELS: WELL, YOU COULD BE ELECTED PRIME MINISTER, I SUPPOSE.

RUBENSTEIN: WELL, YOU THINK PEOPLE WOULD RATHER HAVE THAT?

MICHAELS: YEAH, EXACTLY.

RUBENSTEIN: SO NOW, YOU RECEIVED THAT AS A CANAD-- AND YOU'RE A CANADIAN AND AMERICAN CITIZEN, RIGHT, BUT YOU'VE ALSO RECEIVED THE HIGHEST CIVILIAN HONOR THAT OUR COUNTRY CAN GIVE, WHICH IS THE PRESIDENTIAL MEDAL OF FREEDOM, SO WHAT WAS IT LIKE?

YOU GOT IT FROM PRESIDENT OBAMA.

- WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?

- IT WAS THRILLING.

MICHAELS: I MEAN, MY FAMILY WAS THERE.

IT WAS JUST THRILLING TO BE THERE, AND WHEN I GOT THE CALL TELLING ME THAT I WAS TO RECEIVE IT, I WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF WORKING OUT AND WASN'T PAYING-- AND THEN I SORT OF TOOK IT IN, AND I THEN WENT, "OH," AND VALERIE JARRETT, WHO CALLED ME, SAID, "AND WE'D APPRECIATE YOUR NOT TALKING ABOUT IT," SO THERE WAS A MONTH WHERE I KNEW I WAS GETTING IT BEFORE IT WAS GOING TO BE ANNOUNCED, AND I TOOK IT VERY SERIOUSLY ABOUT NOT TALKING TO PEOPLE ABOUT IT, AND SHE SAID, "WELL, YOU CAN TELL YOUR FAMILY."

I WENT, "OH, THANKS," BUT IT WAS THE GROUP THAT WAS THERE BECAUSE IT WAS HIS LAST YEAR, BUT IT WAS JUST AN HONOR TO BE IN THE ROOM.

RUBENSTEIN: SO YOU'VE RECEIVED AT LOT OF OTHER AWARDS.

YOU AND YOUR SHOW HAVE WON SCORES AND SCORES OF EMMYS.

MICHAELS: YES.

RUBENSTEIN: WHERE DO YOU KEEP ALL THESE EMMYS?

MICHAELS: WELL, THEY'RE CONSTANTLY MOVED.

IF I BRING THEM HOME, THEY GET MOVED AROUND AND GENERALLY MOVED OUT, AND I GO, "HEY," YOU KNOW, "I WON THAT," BUT I DON'T THINK-- I DON'T HAVE A TROPHY ROOM, IF THAT'S-- I THINK YOU'RE THRILLED WHEN YOU GET IT BECAUSE YOU'RE COMPETITIVE AND BECAUSE IT'S, THEORETICALLY, FROM YOUR PEERS, AND YOU'RE REALLY ANGRY WHEN YOU DON'T GET IT, SO IT MUST MEAN SOMETHING, AND I THINK WITH ALL OF THOSE THINGS, UNTIL YOU HAVE ONE, IT MEANS EVERYTHING, AND THEN AFTER YOU HAVE ONE, DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING ANYMORE.

RUBENSTEIN: SO IS THERE ANY AWARD THAT YOU HAVEN'T RECEIVED THAT YOU ARE STILL LUSTING AFTER, OR YOU DON'T REALLY LUST AFTER ANY OF THESE AWARDS BECAUSE YOU'VE HAD SO MANY AWARDS?

MICHAEL: I WOULDN'T SAY I'M POST-AWARDS, BUT I THINK THE VALIDATION JUST COMES FROM THE FACT THAT WE'RE STILL ON THE AIR, AND I WILL ALWAYS BELIEVE THAT WE COULD BE CANCELLED.

FOR ME, YOU'RE LITERALLY AS GOOD AS YOUR LAST SHOW, SO WHEN IT DOESN'T WORK OR DOESN'T QUITE CONNECT-- BECAUSE YOU NEVER LEAVE THE STUDIO WITHOUT PEOPLE SAYING, "GREAT SHOW"--YOU WEAR IT.

YOU KNOW, IN THE SEVENTIES, I'D WEAR IT FOR TWO, 3 DAYS.

NOW, GENERALLY, BY LATE SUNDAY, I'M OK. RUBENSTEIN: WHEN YOU ARE AS PROMINENT AS YOU ARE, YOU'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR AS LONG AS YOU HAVE BEEN, CAN YOUNG PEOPLE IN THEIR 20s WHO MIGHT BE WRITERS SAY, "THIS IS VERY FUNNY, AND YOU SAY, "NO," AND THEY ARGUE WITH YOU, OR WHEN YOU SAY NO, THAT'S IT?

MICHAELS: YOU KNOW, IT'S 3:00 IN THE MORNING.

YOU SEE TWO WRITERS IN THE HALL, I MEAN, AS YOU'RE-- AND IN THE SEVENTIES, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SEAMLESS, BUT NOW THEY JUST STOP TALKING AS I GET CLOSER, BUT I THINK IF THEY SUGGEST AN IDEA AND I AM THINKING, "WELL, WE'VE DONE THAT 8 OR 10 TIMES.

I WROTE IT 3 TIMES.

IT'S NEVER WORKED," BUT IF YOU EVER SAID, "IT WON'T WORK," THEY THINK, "WELL, HE JUST DOESN'T GET IT," WHICH IS INFURIATING, BUT THEY HAVE TO BE ABLE TO WRITE IT, AND HOPE SPRINGS ETERNAL THAT MAYBE THIS TIME, IT WILL WORK, SO THERE'S NO IDEA THAT SOMEBODY BRILLIANT ISN'T ABLE TO FIGURE OUT AND PULL OFF, SO YOU'RE ALWAYS JUST HOPEFUL ON THAT FRONT.

RUBENSTEIN: SO TODAY AS YOU LOOK AT NEXT SEASON, SO FORTH, ARE THERE THINGS YOU WOULD LIKE TO DO WITH THE SHOW THAT YOU HAVEN'T DONE YET?

MICHAELS: I THINK THE SHOW JUST CONTINUES TO MORPH.

I MEAN, SINCE THE LAST ELECTION, IT'S BEEN MUCH MORE POLITICAL BECAUSE THE AUDIENCE CAN FOLLOW IT.

THERE WERE TIMES, YOU KNOW, IN THE MID NINETIES WHERE IF YOU'D ASK ONE OF THE CAST MEMBERS WHO THE SENATE MAJORITY LEADER IS, THEY WOULDN'T KNOW, SO POLITICS BECOMES-- OBVIOUSLY POST-WATERGATE, POLITICS IS VERY IMPORTANT AND TO THE BABY BOOM GENERATION REMAINED IMPORTANT, AND THEN IN GOOD TIMES, IT SORT OF RECEDES, SO WE'RE ALWAYS JUST DOING WHAT'S TOPICAL.

IT MIGHT BE POLITICS.

RIGHT NOW, IT IS.

RUBENSTEIN: SO IF SOMEBODY SAID, "I REALLY WANT TO BE "LIKE LORNE MICHAELS.

"I WANT TO BE A SUCCESSFUL PRODUCER... - I'D SAY, "WHY?"

YEAH.

- THE MASTER OF TELEVISION," RUBENSTEIN: WHAT ARE THE QUALITIES THAT THIS PERSON SHOULD HAVE-- HARD WORK, SMART, GOOD SENSE OF HUMOR, KNOW HOW TO GET ALONG WITH PEOPLE, MOTIVATE PEOPLE?

WHAT ARE THE QUALITIES YOU THINK, REALLY, ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT ONES?

MICHAELS: I THINK THAT WHAT-- I WOULDN'T ADVISE ANYBODY ON IT, BUT I THINK THAT LEADERSHIP IN THIS PARTICULAR FIELD IS THE ABILITY TO CHANGE YOUR MIND AND QUITE OFTEN CHANGE YOUR MIND, SO IF A BETTER IDEA COMES IN FROM A FIRST-YEAR WRITER, WE'LL GO WITH THAT, AND IT'S A CULTURE THAT THRIVES ON THAT, SO IT ISN'T STATUS OR HIERARCHY THAT DETERMINE IT.

PEOPLE THAT THE AUDIENCE IS DYING TO SEE IN THE CAST COULD END UP IN ONE PIECE BECAUSE THE PIECES GOT CHOSEN AND THEY WERE CHOSEN-- EVERYONE'S HEARD THEM PLAY AT READ-THROUGH, AND SO THERE ISN'T A WEEK WHERE SOMEONE'S NOT SERIOUSLY UNHAPPY, AND IT'S NOT FUN WALKING PAST PEOPLE JUST AFTER YOU'VE CUT THEIR PIECE BECAUSE WE'RE RUNNING LONG AND THAT'S THE PIECE THAT GOT CUT, BUT THERE'S ALWAYS NEXT WEEK, AND I THINK YOU JUST KEEP MOVING FORWARD, AND YOU JUST TRY AND CREATE A CULTURE WHERE EVERYONE FEELS THEY'RE HEARD.

RUBENSTEIN: SO FINAL QUESTION I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU IS THIS.

VERY OFTEN, I ASK PEOPLE, "WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO BE A LEADER?"

YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY A LEADER IN YOUR AREA, AND THE SKILL SET TO BE A LEADER, WHAT DO YOU THINK, YOUR OBSERVATION OF OTHER PEOPLE OR IN YOUR OWN LIFE THE QUALITIES THAT YOU HAVE SEEN THAT REALLY MAKES PEOPLE AN EFFECTIVE LEADER?

MICHAELS: IF YOU'RE IN POWER, I THINK EVERYBODY SORT OF KNOWS YOU'RE IN POWER, SO DON'T EVER HAVE TO EXPLAIN YOU'RE IN POWER, AND I THINK THAT WHEN YOU ARE IN A ROOM WITH REALLY TALENTED PEOPLE, YOU DON'T MAKE MANY SUGGESTIONS.

ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT YOU'RE GOING TO SUGGEST HAS BEEN COVERED BY SOMEONE, AND SO IT'S MORE ABOUT-- YOU MORE LEAD BY EXAMPLE.

IT'S WHAT YOU STAND FOR AND WHAT YOUR TASTE IS, AND MOSTLY, IT'S ABOUT BEING RIGHT MORE OFTEN THAN YOU'RE NOT, AND ALSO PUSHING PEOPLE FORWARD BECAUSE, IN MY CASE, I THINK PEOPLE KNOW THAT ALL THAT MATTERS TO ME IS WHETHER THE SHOW IS GOOD OR NOT, AND I'M GOING TO BE RUTHLESS IN THE SEARCH FOR THAT, AND I'M GOING TO JUST-- THAT'S WHAT I'M SEEING, SO IF YOU HAVEN'T CAUGHT UP WITH IT ON SOME LEVEL WHY I'M DOING SOMETHING, I REALLY WON'T HAVE TIME TO EXPLAIN, BUT AFTER A WHILE, YOU'LL SEE A PATTERN BECAUSE WE HAVE 45 MINUTES BETWEEN DRESS AND AIR TO JUST FIGURE IT OUT, AND I GO AROUND THE ROOM AND GO, "WHAT DO YOU THINK?

"WHAT DO YOU THINK?

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

WHAT ABOUT IF WE PUT THIS HERE?"

AND EVERYBODY SPEAKS.

ULTIMATELY, THE DECISION IS TECHNICALLY MINE, BUT YOU CAN FEEL CONSENSUS, AND THEY'RE ALL PEOPLE WHO JUST WANT IT TO BE GOOD, SO-- RUBENSTEIN: THANK YOU FOR LETTING US TALK TO YOU, AND THANK YOU FOR NEVER MAKING FUN OF PRIVATE EQUITY.

IN ALL THE SHOWS YOU'VE DONE, YOU'VE NEVER MADE FUN OF PRIVATE EQUITY, WHICH IS A GOOD THING, RIGHT?

MICHAELS: YES.

YES.

IT IS A GOOD THING.

RUBENSTEIN: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

MICHAELS: YOU'RE MORE THAN WELCOME.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.